Jamie Paterson

[Phileas Fogg]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

Whilst I agree with your analogies...we've got to be really careful at thinking players are disagreeing or not understanding tactics etc.

What starts as a thought by a few posters, becomes 'FACT'.

It is most likely not the case.

All dressing rooms have 'falling outs' and arguments when results aren't going their way. And like you say...the older experienced Pros will have their say.

I've not witnessed any misunderstanding.

I've witnessed a lack of ability and effort by some.

I think LJ is on to a loser with many people when results aren't going our way, because he speaks eloquently and precisely. So some people will accuse him of 'talking a good game'. Managers can't win sometimes.

The biggest criticism, is certain fans not understanding the 'tactics' or reasons for periods of play, and thinking because they don't understand it, the players don't.

True. I don't think the system we play or try to play is that complex really. We haven't got the players to play anything overly complicated anyway. 

Been reading Allerdyce's book recently which is a pretty good read. He sees arguments and falling out in the dressing as healthy as it shows the players care. You'd rather that than have a squad of apathetic players who didn't mind if we lost or they weren't selected or disagreed with the formation.

I think rumours of failings out' become have more importance placed on them when we're doing badly which is natural.

[spudski]

10 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Very surprised at that. Can't imagine LJ raging, especially at a young player. Bit over the top from him there.

He comes across as Placid in Interviews but has quite a tongue on him.

All in the heat of the moment. He's good at man management tbh...and will explain to each player his thinking. He'll understand the reasoning behind the move to Bury.

Tbh...more youngsters need to hear the truth and man up. Way too soft these days and over protected. Too many people 'offended' and 'hurt feelings'.

Sometimes you need someone raging in your face...it's like war out their for 90 mins.

 

[spudski]

Short man syndrome...How many Dictators have been short? ;-) Hitler, Napoleon,.....

Interestingly we've bought tall :-)

[BobBobSuperBob]

40 minutes ago, spudski said:

The one thing that has stood out for me this season, and last with Kodijia, are the signings from foreign teams that are very average in their respective Leagues.

When you look at Magners, Kodijia, Moore (for his age) and on today's performances, Hegler and Duric...they are all head and shoulders above what we've got of similar ilk in our squad.

These players are 'average' players abroad...yet they look like Superstars compared to some of our squad players. Ok...slightly over the top...but you get my drift.

I think LJ is feeling the pressure though. Heard some stuff about why Moore got sent to Bury today, from a very reliable source who would know. Pretty much after the Ipswich game...

Went mental at Moore...along the lines of 'Get you ******* head in and break your nose...or **** off back to France'. In other words...needs to toughen up and learn to be harder. Hence loan to Bury.

I can see why we are raiding foreign shores...because the work ethic and ability is far superior.

I can't stress how good a player Hegeler looked today. Head and shoulders above everyone.

Exactly the type of scenario I expected might have happened (from post match I/v)

Have to say again Spud ,  

if true or close to true - that can never be the way to manage , we all can lose our cool but that is never going to work for anyone and rattles one of my major concerns about LJ - Man management for this level

I absolutely agree with you about young players should 'man up' but as you keep saying it's a different world in Football now and few young players will wear it or cope with it in this modern world)

You can 'bully' some young players but 'established pros' won't take it , or few would I should say - so that's a concern moving forward unless , as a first team , we want a team of U23s who will , for now , accept it !

We both criticised SCs persona (Radio I/vs and such like) but it was clear that a high majority of players 'played for him' 

I think I'll take awful reactions to radio reporters over man management failings in the dressing room

For me, Add to @Phileas Foggs brilliant post (above)

' And when the pressure comes it appears LJ has a real temper ' ,

it would  say it for me

[BobBobSuperBob]

47 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Very surprised at that. Can't imagine LJ raging, especially at a young player. Bit over the top from him there.

Have to say PF I was wondering whether this type of thing is what GON might have 'fallen out over'

GON has always been reported as a good pro and if any of the talk of this and suchlike is true I can imagine , in such a scenario GON telling Lee that he's out of order 

What we do know is Lee has a habit of 'outing' players in post match interviews and although fans love honesty and to hear his forthright views , players always hate this and is something that he needs to stop immediately ( IMHO)

[Lack of Action Man]

Jamie Patterson... Martyn Woolford... hmmmmmm.

[Phileas Fogg]

9 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Have to say PF I was wondering whether this type of thing is what GON might have 'fallen out over'

GON has always been reported as a good pro and if any of the talk of this and suchlike is true I can imagine , in such a scenario GON telling Lee that he's out of order 

What we do know is Lee has a habit of 'outing' players in post match interviews and although fans love honesty and to hear his forthright views , players always hate this and is something that he needs to stop immediately ( IMHO)

Thanks for the kind feedback on the post. I'm a huge LJ fan as you know but still try to look at it objectively and they're three things that I think, theoretically anyway, may put him at a disadvantage when managing some players. 

I find the 'outing' players thing a very interesting approach. Lee would've studied management theory and I'm sure he's got his reasons for doing it. It doesn't sit particularly well with me, especially when it's about young players, but maybe LJ thinks Moore would be motivated by it. Cotterill, by contrast, didn't really break ranks and directly criticise individual players from memory - even when things were going badly. I've no doubt he was brutal in the dressing room though. 

You could well be right about GO'N - I was under the impression though that the pair of them may not have seen eye to eye for a few weeks and before that Moore incident. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

11 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Thanks for the kind feedback on the post. I'm a huge LJ fan as you know but still try to look at it objectively and they're three things that I think, theoretically anyway, may put him at a disadvantage when managing some players. 

I find the 'outing' players thing a very interesting approach. Lee would've studied management theory and I'm sure he's got his reasons for doing it. It doesn't sit particularly well with me, especially when it's about young players, but maybe LJ thinks Moore would be motivated by it. Cotterill, by contrast, didn't really break ranks and directly criticise individual players from memory - even when things were going badly. I've no doubt he was brutal in the dressing room though. 

You could well be right about GO'N - I was under the impression though that the pair of them may not have seen eye to eye for a few weeks and before that Moore incident. 

Sorry PF I was only using that alleged incident merely as an example , I know he's not a youngster but he publicly outed ROD (Who,seems popular in the squad) Post Sheffield Weds and the vibe coming through is he follows Dad in dropping hand grenades in dressing room - Dad struggled in the end to use that method with players at this level , not sure why Lee can achieve it

Interesting point about management theory

Im sure he has studied it , but maybe ? he has that trigger that goes in times of frustration , pressure etc, often through passion , and can't hold back whatever he's read and accepted in any theory 

I have managed and this  was my absolute weakness 

[Phileas Fogg]

5 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Sorry PF I was only using that alleged incident merely as an example , I know he's not a youngster but he publicly outed ROD (Who,seems popular in the squad) Post Sheffield Weds and the vibe coming through is he follows Dad in dropping hand grenades in dressing room - Dad struggled in the end to use that method with players at this level , not sure why Lee can achieve it

Interesting point about management theory

Im sure he has but maybe he has that trigger that goes in times of frustration , pressure etc, often through passion , and can't hold back whatever he's read and accepted in any theory 

I have managed and this  was my absolute weakness 

True. From his perspective we were a couple of minutes away from a solid point at Ipswich which would've been a success.

One reason I'm still very pro LJ is because I genuinely believe he cares deeply for the club. Managers like McInnes, Coppell etc with no real ties to the club or area I find harder to warm to. You can't buy in the sort of passion for Bristol City and there are probably only around 10-20 current players/managers on the circuit who have a genuine passion for Bristol City FC. That buys him time from me and probably from the board too. The downside of that is that it might make him suffer pressure more. Obviously he'll have felt pressure at Barnsley or Oldham but is it quite the same? Of course it doesn't give him a free pass to fail, but it buys him time.. 

In my opinion it might make his reaction when things go wrong even worse. I doubt in cold blood he'd lash out at Moore like that but maybe it makes things a more extreme for him at both ends of the spectrum.. I've no doubt that promotion to him here would mean far more to him on a personal level than promotion at Barnsley and that's ultimately what we are working towards. Perhaps then at Ipswich he began to see individual errors by players, which he feels were unnecessary, beginning to threaten his job at a club he loves.

When that happens, maybe all his learning and reading abandons him and raw emotion takes over!

[Lack of Action Man]

13 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Interesting point about management theory

Im sure he has studied it

http://m.bristolpost.co.uk/bristol-city-nhs-british-army-helped-shape-lee/story-28716855-detail/story.html

[BobBobSuperBob]

14 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

When that happens, maybe all his learning and reading abandons him and raw emotion takes over!

For the reasons you highlight , that's what I'm starting to suspect

Interesting - needs to try and beat it very quickly if in any way true

(I couldn't beat it however hard I tried or whatever I tried , always came out eventually )

[cityred exile]

No Wonder He Looked Lost When He Came On Yesterday  , Hes Not Had Around 6 Weeks Of Action     In AnyCase Reckon Should Have Come On Instead Of Bobby Against Reading  As Right Winger

[Chairman Mao]

22 hours ago, spudski said:

Short man syndrome...How many Dictators have been short? ;-) Hitler, Napoleon,.....

Interestingly we've bought tall :-)

Napoleon was above average height for his time period, 5"5/5"6

British propoganda claimed he was short and it stuck. 

As for Hitler, I don't think he was defined by his height 

[spudski]

17 minutes ago, Chairman Mao said:

Napoleon was above average height for his time period, 5"5/5"6

British propoganda claimed he was short and it stuck. 

As for Hitler, I don't think he was defined by his height 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3125722/Are-short-men-little-Napoleons-s-said-smaller-men-tend-chippy-aggressive-s-scientific-evidence.html

No wonder they all have a chip on their shoulder...plus those damn midges ;-)

[Chairman Mao]

5 minutes ago, spudski said:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3125722/Are-short-men-little-Napoleons-s-said-smaller-men-tend-chippy-aggressive-s-scientific-evidence.html

No wonder they all have a chip on their shoulder...plus those damn midges ;-)

Haha, I'm just impressed that a drunk chairman Mao remembers Napleons height, that history degree wasn't all useless after all!!!

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, Chairman Mao said:

Haha, I'm just impressed that a drunk chairman Mao remembers Napleons height, that history degree wasn't all useless after all!!!

I'm actually impressed that you are 5' 11''...I had to google that ;-) Thought you'd be shorter than that. I've still got 4 inches on you though ;-)

[shelts]

Maybe he's lost some confidence but he doesn't look a player for me. Prefer to see Odowda get a run in the side. 

[chinapig]

23 hours ago, spudski said:

Short man syndrome...How many Dictators have been short? ;-) Hitler, Napoleon,.....

Interestingly we've bought tall :-)

Actually Napoleon was of pretty average height for his time and taller than Wellington I believe.

[rednotblue]

23 hours ago, spudski said:

 

I think LJ is feeling the pressure though. Heard some stuff about why Moore got sent to Bury today, from a very reliable source who would know. Pretty much after the Ipswich game...Went mental at Moore...along the lines of 'Get you ******* head in and break your nose...or **** off back to France'. In other words...needs to toughen up and learn to be harder. Hence loan to Bury.

 

Did he say this to him in front of the rest of the players? 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

I'm actually impressed that you are 5' 11''...I had to google that ;-) Thought you'd be shorter than that. I've still got 4 inches on you though ;-)

Cue @Rudolf Hucker

[Red-Robbo]

2 hours ago, chinapig said:

Actually Napoleon was of pretty average height for his time and taller than Wellington I believe.

I've read that too, but to my mind it smacks of revisionist history for its own sake. It's based on the size ordered for his coffin and assuming it was in French pre-Metric "pieds", not the slightly smaller standard British feet. Numerous contemporaries speak about Napoleon's lack of height and he came from an island that has throughout history produced much shorter people than the average Frenchman. 

Anyway that's my take on it.

Dr Rob Robbo, Ph.d History

[havanatopia]

On 08/01/2017 at 06:19, tinman85 said:

Another flop from the summer. Move him on 

Out of interest who do you think are the other 'flops'? I am not in the UK as you may know so only have anecdotal evidence.

On 08/01/2017 at 06:34, spudski said:

I hardly noticed Patterson today when he came on...apparently he's been another very vocal player on the sidelines.

Brings me back to what i mentioned some while back on same subject; I recall Mark Ashton talking the talk about 'not leaving any stone unturned' when it comes to 'getting the right players in and that means not just skill but characters' 'they must have the right characters'. If what you say is true about Patterson and perhaps GON, from others, then it suggests Mark Ashton has, in fact, not upturned all of the stones when it comes to character assessment. Or...

He did not factor in, because he did not get to know Lee J enough, that the head coach's character was in fact prone to a temper or a propensity to mouth off against players in public and not have the skills to take them into his office and have a quiet moral boosting talk with them; albeit this is heresay is it not? Anyway, I suspect it is a combination of both as well as other factors if indeed any player is a dud.

One cannot always get it right of course and when you bring so many players to a club in such a short space of time you are bound to get a few duds. I suspect we simply brought too many in too quickly and this partly explains our poor recent league form; managing so many new players so quickly would challenge every manager. And for that reason alone I, personally, cannot criticise Lee J. Moreover we have absolutely no idea what goes on and never will to the detail required to offer a correct analysis.

3 hours ago, chinapig said:

Actually Napoleon was of pretty average height for his time and taller than Wellington I believe.

I was not aware french unit of measure was different from modern day but apparently so and while Napoleon is listed as being 5' 2" there is clarification that in modern feet and inches he was in fact 5'6"... I suppose further analysis might be required for those with an inquisitive mind. As for Arthur Wellesley or the 1st Duke of Wellington well, he was also 5'6". Nelson was 5'5 1/2" and Churchill even shorter at 5'5" . Military genius and shortness seem to go hand in hand; Monty was only 5'5".

[BRISTOL86]

That's about the tenth time you've used the phrase 'poorly managed'. 

What do you know that we don't?

[spudski]

6 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Out of interest who do you think are the other 'flops'? I am not in the UK as you may know so only have anecdotal evidence.

Brings me back to what i mentioned some while back on same subject; I recall Mark Ashton talking the talk about 'not leaving any stone unturned' when it comes to 'getting the right players in and that means not just skill but characters' 'they must have the right characters'. If what you say is true about Patterson and perhaps GON, from others, then it suggests Mark Ashton has, in fact, not upturned all of the stones when it comes to character assessment. Or...

He did not factor in, because he did not get to know Lee J enough, that the head coach's character was in fact prone to a temper or a propensity to mouth off against players in public and not have the skills to take them into his office and have a quiet moral boosting talk with them; albeit this is heresay is it not? Anyway, I suspect it is a combination of both as well as other factors if indeed any player is a dud.

One cannot always get it right of course and when you bring so many players to a club in such a short space of time you are bound to get a few duds. I suspect we simply brought too many in too quickly and this partly explains our poor recent league form; managing so many new players so quickly would challenge every manager. And for that reason alone I, personally, cannot criticise Lee J. Moreover we have absolutely no idea what goes on and never will to the detail required to offer a correct analysis.

I was not aware french unit of measure was different from modern day but apparently so and while Napoleon is listed as being 5' 2" there is clarification that in modern feet and inches he was in fact 5'6"... I suppose further analysis might be required for those with an inquisitive mind. As for Arthur Wellesley or the 1st Duke of Wellington well, he was also 5'6". Nelson was 5'5 1/2" and Churchill even shorter at 5'5" . Military genius and shortness seem to go hand in hand; Monty was only 5'5".

Lets not get carried away here Havana... ;-) I believe all our players are good sorts.

However...we have to remember football isn't like a normal workplace...during match day it's like a war zone. Anyone who has played football at a fairly decent level, will know passions run high in the dressing room on match day. Things are said in the heat of the moment.

It's good we've got players using their voice and talking...it shows they care. If they were just going through the motions and saying nothing, then it would be a massive concern.

There is nothing wrong with venting frustration and showing some passion. We live in a society now, where people walk on eggshells in the work place and are scared to say anything, for fear of offending anyone. Thankfully that doesn't happen in football. If a player has been coached and asked to do something and they repeatedly fail...then they will be told in no uncertain terms. Then come Monday...all is calm again, and it's back to normal with calm and dedicated coaching to rectify any situation.

Everyone needs to be managed differently...that's where man management skills come to the fore. However...every top manager in football shows his anger and frustration and will show it when necessary.

Players take praise when doing well...they have to take personal flak when doing something wrong as well.

Lets face it...it's the managers head on the block every game. If you are repeatedly telling a player to do something, and you lose a game because they fail to do it, then they deserve the verbal criticism.

It's easy for fans to criticise players or managers for doing or saying something from the comfort of our armchairs, but try walking in their shoes first. It's not like 'normal' work.

[Alwaystomorrow]

Paterson is certainly simply not good enough. Get him out of the club and move on. Simples!

[ciderbeans]

Sell freeman and Patterson and buy canos. Out with the deadwood, in with a better prospect that has good pedigree, can cross a ball, assist and score goals

[BobBobSuperBob]

11 hours ago, spudski said:

Lets not get carried away here Havana... ;-) I believe all our players are good sorts.

However...we have to remember football isn't like a normal workplace...during match day it's like a war zone. Anyone who has played football at a fairly decent level, will know passions run high in the dressing room on match day. Things are said in the heat of the moment.

It's good we've got players using their voice and talking...it shows they care. If they were just going through the motions and saying nothing, then it would be a massive concern.

There is nothing wrong with venting frustration and showing some passion. We live in a society now, where people walk on eggshells in the work place and are scared to say anything, for fear of offending anyone. Thankfully that doesn't happen in football. If a player has been coached and asked to do something and they repeatedly fail...then they will be told in no uncertain terms. Then come Monday...all is calm again, and it's back to normal with calm and dedicated coaching to rectify any situation.

Everyone needs to be managed differently...that's where man management skills come to the fore. However...every top manager in football shows his anger and frustration and will show it when necessary.

Players take praise when doing well...they have to take personal flak when doing something wrong as well.

Lets face it...it's the managers head on the block every game. If you are repeatedly telling a player to do something, and you lose a game because they fail to do it, then they deserve the verbal criticism.

It's easy for fans to criticise players or managers for doing or saying something from the comfort of our armchairs, but try walking in their shoes first. It's not like 'normal' work.

Agreed Spud

But not in post match interviews would be my suggestion for Lee , certainly not to criticise individuals openly

 

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, ciderbeans said:

Sell freeman and Patterson and buy canos. Out with the deadwood, in with a better prospect that has good pedigree, can cross a ball, assist and score goals

We could at least paddle Canos up shit Creek .