When your two highest paid players complain...

['Orns]

1 minute ago, marmite said:

Difference is Sir Alex never went on such a bad run as LJ. He had earned his respect with results and trophies. LJ is a long way off.

On the brink of the sack before a FA Cup reply at Oxford about 18 months / two years after he was appointed, so not strictly true

Caveat - I may have the competition, opponents and timescale completely wrong on that!

[Kid in the Riot]

4 minutes ago, Woodsy said:

What were the stats in the 10 games before and after the Divvy chat? 

I seem to remember we were on a terrible run, that got turned around pretty much straight away. And we all know what happened the next season......

Divvy's teamtalk came on 1 March 2014 against Gillingham, a game we won 2-1.

Prior to that we'd won just 2 out of 12 games.

After the Gillingham game we only lost 1 game for the rest of the season (at Rotherham) which was 13 games, and we won the majority of those. We know what happened the season after as well!

[marmite]

2 minutes ago, Woodsy said:

On the brink of the sack before a FA Cup reply at Oxford about 18 months / two years after he was appointed, so not strictly true

Caveat - I may have the competition, opponents and timescale completely wrong on that!

Point taken. Maybe this is an omen then. LJ on the brink of the sack before a cup replay, Maybe European success is around the corner.

[View from the Dolman]

3 minutes ago, Woodsy said:

On the brink of the sack before a FA Cup reply at Oxford about 18 months / two years after he was appointed, so not strictly true

Caveat - I may have the competition, opponents and timescale completely wrong on that!

He had a run of 10 league games without a win. 4 draws, 6 defeats. 25/11/1989-21/01/1990. There was an FA Cup win in the middle, away at Nottingham Forest.

[Up The City!]

3 minutes ago, Woodsy said:

On the brink of the sack before a FA Cup reply at Oxford about 18 months / two years after he was appointed, so not strictly true

Caveat - I may have the competition, opponents and timescale completely wrong on that!

This, I don't know how bad their run was but I know had he lost that game he would have been sacked.

Over the years I've heard many people use this as an example of why clubs should stick with managers yet when it applies to their own club suddenly their opinions change?

[View from the Dolman]

5 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

He had a run of 10 league games without a win. 4 draws, 6 defeats. 25/11/1989-21/01/1990. There was an FA Cup win in the middle, away at Nottingham Forest.

Also a 9 game run without a win. 22/10/1988-27/11/1988. 2 draws, 7 defeats.

['Orns]

7 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Divvy's teamtalk came on 1 March 2014 against Gillingham, a game we won 2-1.

Prior to that we'd won just 2 out of 12 games.

After the Gillingham game we only lost 1 game for the rest of the season (at Rotherham) which was 13 games, and we won the majority of those. We know what happened the season after as well!

The Divvy effect!

6 minutes ago, marmite said:

Point taken. Maybe this is an omen then. LJ on the brink of the sack before a cup replay, Maybe European success is around the corner.

That's the spirit. Think you are defo talking bollocks this time though 

6 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

He had a run of 10 league games without a win. 4 draws, 6 defeats. 25/11/1989-21/01/1990. There was an FA Cup win in the middle, away at Nottingham Forest.

Good knowledge!

6 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

This, I don't know how bad their run was but I know had he lost that game he would have been sacked.

Over the years I've heard many people use this as an example of why clubs should stick with managers yet when it applies to their own club suddenly their opinions change?

It's the easy one to trot out when a manager is under pressure, but as I remember SAF didn't do too bad in the long run, did he!

[Nogbad the Bad]

53 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

I remember when LJ signed every player commented how vastly improved training had become so think we can discount your theory. 

I don't remember that particularly - I don't doubt it's true but tbf we've heard the same from City players after just about every managerial change.

I've no doubt if LJ does go the OS will be go out of it's way to get quotes from the players saying the same again.

It's partly about damage limitation, partly about the club promoting a positive atmosphere to welcome the new manager and get the fans on board, and also players being happy to be complimentary to get in the new man's good books.

After all a managerial change usually comes after a run of poor results and no doubt some depression in the dressing room and on the training pitch so it's quite understandable the majority of players will be pleased that the optimism and buoyancy has returned under a different training schedule, even if some may be initially disappointed the old manager has gone.

[RedRaw]

35 minutes ago, Dollymarie said:

I'll do it!  

Preferably not when they are in the showers.....

[Dollymarie]

7 minutes ago, RedRaw said:

Preferably not when they are in the showers.....

Damn! Worth a try! 

[Septic Peg]

1 hour ago, Dollymarie said:

I'll do it!  

Can I come too?

I'll even flash them some side booby if it gets the boys going. Hubby won't be pleased but sacrifices must be made. 

[Kala Taro]

49 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

This, I don't know how bad their run was but I know had he lost that game he would have been sacked.

Over the years I've heard many people use this as an example of why clubs should stick with managers yet when it applies to their own club suddenly their opinions change?

Urban myth.

'It was Jan 7, 1990, when United played Nottingham Forest away in the FA Cup third round.

Without a victory since mid-November and with United plummeting towards the First Division relegation zone, the word was out that defeat would see Ferguson sacked.

Four weeks prior to the Cup tie against Forest, United suffered a 2-1 defeat at home to a Crystal Palace team routed 9-0 at Liverpool just three months earlier. Mirroring the growing disenchantment towards Ferguson from the terraces, a banner was unfurled on the Stretford End which read, '3 Years of Excuses and It's Still Crap. Ta Ra Fergie!'

December was a dark period for Ferguson. Defeats against Arsenal, Palace, Tottenham and Aston Villa, plus draws against Liverpool and Wimbledon, had increased the pressure.

Despite the insistence of chairman Martin Edwards that Ferguson would not be sacked had United lost at Forest, defeat at the City Ground would not have helped the manager's cause.

But the defeat never came.

The fact that United lost their next two league games, at home to Derby and away to Norwich, suggests that, had Robins' goal not saved Ferguson's job, it certainly bought him crucial time.

Ferguson later said: "The goal at Forest was important, and who's to say what would have happened without it, but I don't think it saved my job.'

Also Bobby Charlton (whose influence at the club shouldn't be underestimated) would never have countenanced Fergie's sacking.

Why this is served up as a prime example of how to run a football club I'm not sure. Utd stuck with Ferguson and the rest, as they say, is history. Another Utd, Leeds in this case have been through six or eight(?) managers in short order under Cellino and now they sit in 3rd place with Monk at the helm. I'm pretty sure Cellino would justify his quick fire sacking policy on their league position now.

So, stick or twist? No-one and I mean, no-one has the faintest idea what the winning strategy is but... hindsight will always be a wonderful thing.

[Jack Dawe]

2 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

I don't see it that way. Played out of his skull first 6-7 games been a shadow since 

Sheffield Wednesday was the seventh game, when O'Neil was sent off

[handsofclay]

24 minutes ago, Septic Peg said:

Can I come too?

I'll even flash them some side booby if it gets the boys going. Hubby won't be pleased but sacrifices must be made. 

 

There has already been too much falling out in the dressing room as it is!

[tinman85]

Tomlin just tweeted a photo of O'Neil with the caption what a guy and legend. Hmmm. Certainly LJ needs to stick hem both in and start Hegeler in his rightful midfield position tomorrow. 

[P'head Red]

Didn't realise we had so many psychologists on the forum!  

[Jack Dawe]

On 15/01/2017 at 16:20, shelts said:

Lee Tomlin, one of the best creative players in the league.....did he tell you that

"I believe we've signed the most talented player at Championship level in terms of ability" Lee Johnson, last July, on the signing of Lee Tomlin.

[Northern Red]

4 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I don't remember that particularly - I don't doubt it's true but tbf we've heard the same from City players after just about every managerial change.

I've no doubt if LJ does go the OS will be go out of it's way to get quotes from the players saying the same again.

It's partly about damage limitation, partly about the club promoting a positive atmosphere to welcome the new manager and get the fans on board, and also players being happy to be complimentary to get in the new man's good books.

After all a managerial change usually comes after a run of poor results and no doubt some depression in the dressing room and on the training pitch so it's quite understandable the majority of players will be pleased that the optimism and buoyancy has returned under a different training schedule, even if some may be initially disappointed the old manager has gone.

I remember when McInnes took over and had a great start, reading comments from the players about how brilliant he was and that their biggest fear was that he wouldn't be with us long because a bigger club would come calling for him.

Just over a year later, he was sacked with us rooted in the relegation zone. 

[Norn Iron]

5 hours ago, marmite said:

Point taken. Maybe this is an omen then. LJ on the brink of the sack before a cup replay, Maybe European success is around the corner.

Doubtful.

We've already played Cardiff away this season. 

[Jack Dawe]

11 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

They obviously got on fine last season. I think the loan arrangement worked perfectly for us and Tomlin at the time but unfortunately there was always a reason why we were getting a player who in terms of natural ability would usually be out of our reach. That reason is Lee Tomlin is a ******* liability. When things are going great he's fine, but the minute he doesn't get his own way he thinks he's bigger than the club and kicks off as illustrated by @djb6162 above.

Unfortunately the majority of football managers carry an arrogance that they can be the ones to get the best out of troubled players. Eddie Howe, one of the brightest managerial talents in English football, obviously tried and failed and now LJ has received a harsh lesson that sometimes players like Tomlin despite their great ability are best off avoided altogether in the interests of the team.

Tomlin, along with GON and Pack are saboteurs. The manager/club either seeks to engage with them and heal rifts if possible but if this is not possible as certainly seems the case with Tomlin at least, then it is only a matter of time before they will be shown the door for the good of the football club.

LJ had this to say on signing Tomlin last summer:

"He's a lovable rogue and someone you need to keep in check from time to time"

"They say there's a fine line between genius and insanity, and he's probably somewhere in between. And I say that in a loving way"

I agree with you on the "arrogance" of football managers and handling difficult players (Brendan Rogers/Mario Balotelli?) LJ misjudged Tomlin, and his own ability to "handle" a player like Tomlin. LJ got a bit carried away with finishing 18th last season, it looks to me.

LJ and MA have said much about the "DNA" of the players they want to recruit, about character, and doing their "due diligence" when pursuing a player. It is to avoid precisely the sort of mess we appear to have now.

LJ also talked up the importance of "emotional intelligence" for coaches last summer, and he no doubt thought he had the EQ to "handle" Tomlin.

The more LJ gets right in the summer/recruitment, the less "managing" he has to do in the winter/season. His judgement and assessment of individuals and the squad for the season ahead is vital to our success on the pitch and - however difficult or troubled Tomlin or any other player is - the Head Coach is responsible for getting this right. It's no use LJ going to SL and saying "him and him and him are a nightmare," he is paid to "manage" not to oversee a mess.

It's tough on LJ but this isn't a teddy bear's picnic. It's not Oldham and L1. This is the coach to take us to the Premier League, remember; a fanciful thought, as we watch the player revolts there currently. We get the summer wrong, and the winter's a struggle: Johnson's responsibility, not Tomlin's.

Massive learning curve for LJ, and meantime, Bristol City suffer. 

 

[Up The City!]

10 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

LJ had this to say on signing Tomlin last summer:

"He's a lovable rogue and someone you need to keep in check from time to time"

"They say there's a fine line between genius and insanity, and he's probably somewhere in between. And I say that in a loving way"

I agree with you on the "arrogance" of football managers and handling difficult players (Brendan Rogers/Mario Balotelli?) LJ misjudged Tomlin, and his own ability to "handle" a player like Tomlin. LJ got a bit carried away with finishing 18th last season, it looks to me.

LJ and MA have said much about the "DNA" of the players they want to recruit, about character, and doing their "due diligence" when pursuing a player. It is to avoid precisely the sort of mess we appear to have now.

LJ also talked up the importance of "emotional intelligence" for coaches last summer, and he no doubt thought he had the EQ to "handle" Tomlin.

The more LJ gets right in the summer/recruitment, the less "managing" he has to do in the winter/season. His judgement and assessment of individuals and the squad for the season ahead is vital to our success on the pitch and - however difficult or troubled Tomlin or any other player is - the Head Coach is responsible for getting this right. It's no use LJ going to SL and saying "him and him and him are a nightmare," he is paid to "manage" not to oversee a mess.

It's tough on LJ but this isn't a teddy bear's picnic. It's not Oldham and L1. This is the coach to take us to the Premier League, remember; a fanciful thought, as we watch the player revolts there currently. We get the summer wrong, and the winter's a struggle: Johnson's responsibility, not Tomlin's.

Massive learning curve for LJ, and meantime, Bristol City suffer. 

 

All these opinions on something that is likely to be crap, your talking as if you know for certain.

[NickJ]

18 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

LJ had this to say on signing Tomlin last summer:

"He's a lovable rogue and someone you need to keep in check from time to time"

"They say there's a fine line between genius and insanity, and he's probably somewhere in between. And I say that in a loving way"

I agree with you on the "arrogance" of football managers and handling difficult players (Brendan Rogers/Mario Balotelli?) LJ misjudged Tomlin, and his own ability to "handle" a player like Tomlin. LJ got a bit carried away with finishing 18th last season, it looks to me.

LJ and MA have said much about the "DNA" of the players they want to recruit, about character, and doing their "due diligence" when pursuing a player. It is to avoid precisely the sort of mess we appear to have now.

LJ also talked up the importance of "emotional intelligence" for coaches last summer, and he no doubt thought he had the EQ to "handle" Tomlin.

The more LJ gets right in the summer/recruitment, the less "managing" he has to do in the winter/season. His judgement and assessment of individuals and the squad for the season ahead is vital to our success on the pitch and - however difficult or troubled Tomlin or any other player is - the Head Coach is responsible for getting this right. It's no use LJ going to SL and saying "him and him and him are a nightmare," he is paid to "manage" not to oversee a mess.

It's tough on LJ but this isn't a teddy bear's picnic. It's not Oldham and L1. This is the coach to take us to the Premier League, remember; a fanciful thought, as we watch the player revolts there currently. We get the summer wrong, and the winter's a struggle: Johnson's responsibility, not Tomlin's.

Massive learning curve for LJ, and meantime, Bristol City suffer. 

 

What I like about this post is its perceptiveness based on factual observation.

[Kid in the Riot]

33 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

LJ had this to say on signing Tomlin last summer:

"He's a lovable rogue and someone you need to keep in check from time to time"

"They say there's a fine line between genius and insanity, and he's probably somewhere in between. And I say that in a loving way"

I agree with you on the "arrogance" of football managers and handling difficult players (Brendan Rogers/Mario Balotelli?) LJ misjudged Tomlin, and his own ability to "handle" a player like Tomlin. LJ got a bit carried away with finishing 18th last season, it looks to me.

LJ and MA have said much about the "DNA" of the players they want to recruit, about character, and doing their "due diligence" when pursuing a player. It is to avoid precisely the sort of mess we appear to have now.

LJ also talked up the importance of "emotional intelligence" for coaches last summer, and he no doubt thought he had the EQ to "handle" Tomlin.

The more LJ gets right in the summer/recruitment, the less "managing" he has to do in the winter/season. His judgement and assessment of individuals and the squad for the season ahead is vital to our success on the pitch and - however difficult or troubled Tomlin or any other player is - the Head Coach is responsible for getting this right. It's no use LJ going to SL and saying "him and him and him are a nightmare," he is paid to "manage" not to oversee a mess.

It's tough on LJ but this isn't a teddy bear's picnic. It's not Oldham and L1. This is the coach to take us to the Premier League, remember; a fanciful thought, as we watch the player revolts there currently. We get the summer wrong, and the winter's a struggle: Johnson's responsibility, not Tomlin's.

Massive learning curve for LJ, and meantime, Bristol City suffer. 

Well researched post and I completely agree.

I had a pretty strong feeling in the summer that the Tomlin signing would come and bite LJ and BCFC on the arse and I'm afraid it's played out pretty much as I expected.

Tomlin is not absolved from blame here though. If, what I heard he said to LJ is true, then it is completely unacceptable in any working environment and Mr Burns has 'filled in the blanks' in regard to LT being punished for this and accepting he was in the wrong.

The buck ultimately stops with the management team of course and the power lies with the player who retains the sympathy of the fans.

[shelts]

10 hours ago, Jack Dawe said:

"I believe we've signed the most talented player at Championship level in terms of ability" Lee Johnson, last July, on the signing of Lee Tomlin.

Wow LJ 

[Mad Cyril]

This has all gone out of control.

Fact is two players went to SL to complain about how long the new changing rooms were taking to be ready.

The third player was merely enquiring if anyone had seen his missing broom.

[One Team In Keynsham]

I have swerved the football page since Saturday as I was seething. Not necessarily related to this particular topic, but have any of the players, or LJ, come out with anything approaching an apology for the shit-fest of the past months?

And in describing an apology, I don't include any trite "we're working hard, we are looking to turn the corner" BS.

[Septic Peg]

13 minutes ago, One Team In Keynsham said:

I have swerved the football page since Saturday as I was seething. Not necessarily related to this particular topic, but have any of the players, or LJ, come out with anything approaching an apology for the shit-fest of the past months?

Any in describing an apology, I don't include any trite "we're working hard, we are looking to turn the corner" BS.

Nope. Just plenty of the I believe in me, the players, the staff. I've been through this before. I understand the frustration. Me me me me. Blah blah blah.

[Strawberry2157.]

5 minutes ago, Septic Peg said:

Nope. Just plenty of the I believe in me, the players, the staff. I've been through this before. I understand the frustration. Me me me me. Blah blah blah.

Pack said they were ashamed.

[One Team In Keynsham]

5 minutes ago, Septic Peg said:

Nope. Just plenty of the I believe in me, the players, the staff. I've been through this before. I understand the frustration. Me me me me. Blah blah blah.

OK, the usual load of cack that serves no purpose other than to fill up interview space.

[BRISTOL86]

On 16/01/2017 at 07:49, Lympsham Red said:

In LJ's pre-match interview for the Fleetwood replay, he says that "When we turn this corner, we'll come out of it stronger, because we'll find out who can handle the pressure"... this to me could be inferred as an indirect shot at those players he is alleged to have fallen out with, saying that they're only angry because they're not up to the pressure of football at this level. Either way, this is quite a poorly thought-out comment to make as a manager, as he's implying that there are players amongst the squad who aren't up to it, and can you imagine how that'll make the players feel when they see this interview? They're certainly not going to be happy with their manager suggesting that there are a few who can't handle it and so are the reason we're losing. Poor choice of words, which only increases my belief that LJ's man-management skills and ability at maintaining squad harmony are questionable at best.

In addition to this, the following tweet reeks of an attack on certain players within the camp:

I mean, come on, could he get any more provocative towards the players? When they read this, they're going to feel pretty damn wound up about how their manager is referring to them and their personalities and mental qualities. It's just not suitable for a manager to speak about his players in public like this.

Good. Perhaps they'll stop acting like bellends.