When your two highest paid players complain...

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

Good...LJ gets far too much stick for our position right now, some of these players need to step up to the challenge. Buck stops at his door...but the players need to take responsibility as well.

i'm sorry Spud exactly what is new about that statement?, What makes LJ any different to any of our previous at least 10 managers and beyond and you will find the same is true, it is true about 99.9% of managers who find themselves in LJ's position (only a very few managers are actually sacked for disciplinary reasons)  and you will find the same was true for SOD and even SC, the players serially let both of those managers down and most of whom went before and will come after LJ has gone.

The buck does indeed stop at his door as does the job of ensuring that his players 'step up to the challenge' and if that is beyond him he will have to go and deservedly so.

A great start would be to stop playing players in unnatural positions and put Hegeler into midfield where we really need him and not suddenly for some stupid reason continue playing with 3 at the back until Mags is fit and even more importantly establish exactly why when we are in a winning or drawing position going into the final quarter of the game we surrender so much territory in midfield and defend deeper, is it his tactic?, the players tactic? or confusion?.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

26 minutes ago, Lympsham Red said:

In LJ's pre-match interview for the Fleetwood replay, he says that "When we turn this corner, we'll come out of it stronger, because we'll find out who can handle the pressure"... this to me could be inferred as an indirect shot at those players he is alleged to have fallen out with, saying that they're only angry because they're not up to the pressure of football at this level. Either way, this is quite a poorly thought-out comment to make as a manager, as he's implying that there are players amongst the squad who aren't up to it, and can you imagine how that'll make the players feel when they see this interview? They're certainly not going to be happy with their manager suggesting that there are a few who can't handle it and so are the reason we're losing. Poor choice of words, which only increases my belief that LJ's man-management skills and ability at maintaining squad harmony are questionable at best.

In addition to this, the following tweet reeks of an attack on certain players within the camp:

I mean, come on, could he get any more provocative towards the players? When they read this, they're going to feel pretty damn wound up about how their manager is referring to them and their personalities and mental qualities. It's just not suitable for a manager to speak about his players in public like this.

Sorry, can't agree with you there.  Managers are put on the spot by the press, and have to be credible.  I think that to say that you learn about people when you come out of a bad situation is only a fact of life, and has been said in football many many times before.  Anyone who has managed staff will know that at times people will not like you, it's part and parcel of being a manager.  The worst thing a manager can do is try to be liked by everyone.  Any organisation will have a procedure for staff raising a grievance if they think they have one, but what is important is how any grievances are resolved.  I've been involved in many workplaces grievances over the years, and they have to be resolved one way or another.  They can't be allowed to fester.  Ultimately though, unless you can prove misconduct, you have to back the manager, or anarchy will break out.  A mutiny can only be tolerated in the most extreme of circumstances.

If it is true that the players went over the managers head, then I wonder what their grievance was?  The manager doesn't  like me?  Come on, grow up.  The manager isn't listening to me?  Might have a point if they are the senior professionals.  The manager is out of his depth?  That might be when I'd get worried.  However, Lansdown is almost bound to back Johnson in this situation.

[RedM]

Why are people instantly reading a negative into the 'learn a lot about people' comment, surely on the flip side you will learn who supports you and will defend you and want to play for the club. Basically who is up for the fight?

I can't believe so much gossip has been accepted as fact just because a few people have repeated it. Makes we wonder about what people's motives are for spreading rumours. Sad times.

[One Team]

10 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Sorry, can't agree with you there.  Managers are put on the spot by the press, and have to be credible.  I think that to say that you learn about people when you come out of a bad situation is only a fact of life, and has been said in football many many times before.  Anyone who has managed staff will know that at times people will not like you, it's part and parcel of being a manager.  The worst thing a manager can do is try to be liked by everyone.  Any organisation will have a procedure for staff raising a grievance if they think they have one, but what is important is how any grievances are resolved.  I've been involved in many workplaces grievances over the years, and they have to be resolved one way or another.  They can't be allowed to fester.  Ultimately though, unless you can prove misconduct, you have to back the manager, or anarchy will break out.  A mutiny can only be tolerated in the most extreme of circumstances.

If it is true that the players went over the managers head, then I wonder what their grievance was?  The manager doesn't  like me?  Come on, grow up.  The manager isn't listening to me?  Might have a point if they are the senior professionals.  The manager is out of his depth?  That might be when I'd get worried.  However, Lansdown is almost bound to back Johnson in this situation.

Most sensible post I have seen in days.

In addition, whether LJ stays or not if certain players aren't up for a fight then should go. If they would be up for a fight under a different manager then that's appalling professionalism on their part. 

[Port Said Red]

When the City hit bad runs under Alan Dicks, the rumours that circulated included one that suggested that players only got to play if AD was allowed to shag their wives. 

Isn't amazing how rumours about rifts between players and managers only circulate when a team is doing badly, yet logic suggests that there will always be personal differences when there are up to 30 or more players to keep happy, especially those who are not included in the match day squad as regularly as they like.

4 minutes ago, RedM said:

Why are people instantly reading a negative into the 'learn a lot about people' comment, surely on the flip side you will learn who supports you and will defend you and want to play for the club. Basically who is up for the fight?

I can't believe so much gossip has been accepted as fact just because a few people have repeated it. Makes we wonder about what people's motives are for spreading rumours. Sad times.

The quotes from the official site I see are "Head coach reveals he received "a few nice text messages" from the players after the game of Saturday" , no doubt those who have already made up their minds will interpret that in their onw way

 

"Johnson admits he's going through "a steep learning curve" but insists: "Every manager who is successful goes through spells like this...it's how you deal with it" 
Which I see as him taking on responsibility and admitting he is having to learn, not laying it at the door of individual players.

[Snufflelufagus]

21 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Sorry, can't agree with you there.  Managers are put on the spot by the press, and have to be credible.  I think that to say that you learn about people when you come out of a bad situation is only a fact of life, and has been said in football many many times before.  Anyone who has managed staff will know that at times people will not like you, it's part and parcel of being a manager.  The worst thing a manager can do is try to be liked by everyone.  Any organisation will have a procedure for staff raising a grievance if they think they have one, but what is important is how any grievances are resolved.  I've been involved in many workplaces grievances over the years, and they have to be resolved one way or another.  They can't be allowed to fester.  Ultimately though, unless you can prove misconduct, you have to back the manager, or anarchy will break out.  A mutiny can only be tolerated in the most extreme of circumstances.

If it is true that the players went over the managers head, then I wonder what their grievance was?  The manager doesn't  like me?  Come on, grow up.  The manager isn't listening to me?  Might have a point if they are the senior professionals.  The manager is out of his depth?  That might be when I'd get worried.  However, Lansdown is almost bound to back Johnson in this situation.

Could be, The managers tactics and training methods are substandard (compared to what we are used to). Or the manager doesn't really know what player is best in what position.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

1 minute ago, Snufflelufagus said:

Could be, The managers tactics and training methods are substandard (compared to what we are used to). Or the manager doesn't really know what player is best in what position.

In their view, of course.  Trouble is that this sort of situation comes down to opinions.  Perhaps O'Neill is hoping for the job...

[italian dave]

30 minutes ago, 8menhadadream said:

Fair enough KITR but I stand by my point that the professional thing to do is surely to pick your strongest available side regardless of personal issues?

We all probably work with people we may not get along with particularly well but we still try to put personal differences aside and do the best we can for our employer don't we? If it's the players at fault, they need a rocket but I would guess that's down to our head coach.

On my original post, I did say IF there's truth in it, I don't know but there's seemingly something wrong.

But it would surely depend on the (entirely conjectural!) circumstances. If the player, as a result of the row, made it clear that he'd no longer go out and give 100% for the team, just go through the motions, ignore team instructions, or even if the manager felt that was going to be the case, then he'd be quite right to leave him out.

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, Lympsham Red said:

In LJ's pre-match interview for the Fleetwood replay, he says that "When we turn this corner, we'll come out of it stronger, because we'll find out who can handle the pressure"... this to me could be inferred as an indirect shot at those players he is alleged to have fallen out with, saying that they're only angry because they're not up to the pressure of football at this level. Either way, this is quite a poorly thought-out comment to make as a manager, as he's implying that there are players amongst the squad who aren't up to it, and can you imagine how that'll make the players feel when they see this interview? They're certainly not going to be happy with their manager suggesting that there are a few who can't handle it and so are the reason we're losing. Poor choice of words, which only increases my belief that LJ's man-management skills and ability at maintaining squad harmony are questionable at best.

In addition to this, the following tweet reeks of an attack on certain players within the camp:

I mean, come on, could he get any more provocative towards the players? When they read this, they're going to feel pretty damn wound up about how their manager is referring to them and their personalities and mental qualities. It's just not suitable for a manager to speak about his players in public like this.

Well, I suppose the players could take it that way, i.e. sulk. Or they could take it as a challenge and determine to show that it's one their up to. I know which players I'd rather have in my team.

[tinman85]

22 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

Fact is out of all the transfers this season, the two experienced ones have been the most disappointing in Tomlin and O'Neil. Haven't produced consistently enough and don't lead by example. Why should LJ cater to them? We all called for Tomlin and it hasn't worked but there was no point to the O'Neil signing. High wages for an aging non vocal leader who doesn't have the legs to lead by example anymore. I wouldn't lose any sleep if Tomlin, O'Neil and Paterson left TBH. Came in with big reputations and have stagnated the team. Give me Brownhill over O'Neil, Reid over Tomlin and O'Dowda over Paterson. They all leave everything on the pitch at a fraction of the cost. 

O'Neil has been one of our best players!!!

[cityloyal473]

1 hour ago, Lympsham Red said:

In LJ's pre-match interview for the Fleetwood replay, he says that "When we turn this corner, we'll come out of it stronger, because we'll find out who can handle the pressure"... this to me could be inferred as an indirect shot at those players he is alleged to have fallen out with, saying that they're only angry because they're not up to the pressure of football at this level. Either way, this is quite a poorly thought-out comment to make as a manager, as he's implying that there are players amongst the squad who aren't up to it, and can you imagine how that'll make the players feel when they see this interview? They're certainly not going to be happy with their manager suggesting that there are a few who can't handle it and so are the reason we're losing. Poor choice of words, which only increases my belief that LJ's man-management skills and ability at maintaining squad harmony are questionable at best.

In addition to this, the following tweet reeks of an attack on certain players within the camp:

I mean, come on, could he get any more provocative towards the players? When they read this, they're going to feel pretty damn wound up about how their manager is referring to them and their personalities and mental qualities. It's just not suitable for a manager to speak about his players in public like this.

And he's followed up with this today:

Johnson told journalists: "It's very simple. I always pick the team as though my little girl's life depends upon it and that is for the right reasons."

"You cannot always give away everything and I'm taking Lee Tomlin out of it now. There are always scenarios – illness, injury, loss of form or personal problems.

"It is not always the name on the team sheet that sits in that place and we need everybody playing and fully committed to Bristol City and able to perform to their maximum.

Linky link

Pretty cryptic and not really doing anything to dispel the rumours...

[Major Isewater]

21 hours ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Yeah but if I had also performed as badly in my job as some of our players have then I would expect to be let go with no pay out.

The one thing you can't really do is compare an everyday job to that of a footballer.

I've been performing badly in my job for about a year and I'm still here .

 The thing is it's not just about me but the choices my firm make and The society in which we're working.

Firing me would not change anything.

[Son of Fred]

7 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I've been performing badly in my job for about a year and I'm still here .

 The thing is it's not just about me but the choices my firm make and The society in which we're working.

Firing me would not change anything.

Are you Alan Partridge?

[djb6162]

2 minutes ago, Robert the bruce said:

Are you Alan Partridge?

i think its Jeremy Corbyn

[Ska Junkie]

56 minutes ago, italian dave said:

But it would surely depend on the (entirely conjectural!) circumstances. If the player, as a result of the row, made it clear that he'd no longer go out and give 100% for the team, just go through the motions, ignore team instructions, or even if the manager felt that was going to be the case, then he'd be quite right to leave him out.

I don't disagree Dave, just raising the point. Whichever circumstance is correct, if either are correct, they're pretty much untenable anyway aren't they? In either case, either the coach or the player could well end up leaving the club.

I appreciate we're making an awful lot of guesses and assumptions but it's very worrying IMHO.

[husshen]

LJ doesn't seem to have much self-awareness. Someone senior needs to pull him aside and say, "Mate, you talk far too much in the media. Just do what every other manager does and keep it dull for a month or two"

[JoeAman08]

1 hour ago, tinman85 said:

O'Neil has been one of our best players!!!

I don't see it that way. Played out of his skull first 6-7 games been a shadow since 

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, 8menhadadream said:

I don't disagree Dave, just raising the point. Whichever circumstance is correct, if either are correct, they're pretty much untenable anyway aren't they? In either case, either the coach or the player could well end up leaving the club.

I appreciate we're making an awful lot of guesses and assumptions but it's very worrying IMHO.

I think I'd find it more worrying if there was any evidence of it beyond 5 pages on OTIB! Eighteen months ago I'm sure there was a similar thread based on something the tea lady said about how rude Cottrell had been to her: this time it's someone in the ticket office!! 

Not saying there haven't been words, but beyond that it's all assumptions!

[Up The City!]

3 hours ago, RedM said:

Why are people instantly reading a negative into the 'learn a lot about people' comment, surely on the flip side you will learn who supports you and will defend you and want to play for the club. Basically who is up for the fight?

I can't believe so much gossip has been accepted as fact just because a few people have repeated it. Makes we wonder about what people's motives are for spreading rumours. Sad times.

I find it quite refreshing that he gives us this information. I also believe anything he says in the media he has already said to the players in private.

1 hour ago, husshen said:

LJ doesn't seem to have much self-awareness. Someone senior needs to pull him aside and say, "Mate, you talk far too much in the media. Just do what every other manager does and keep it dull for a month or two"

Yet when he first joined us and we were doing well everyone was creaming about how they could listen to him talk football for hours, now suddenly were not winning and he gets criticised for something he was once praised for?

LJ is right, on this bad run you certainly do learn a lot about people. Supporters included.

In life I've employed people I would want in the trenches with me, people with real steel and with the spirit to fight until the end.

LJ is simply saying if you've not got the fight I'll play players who have.

[Up The City!]

3 hours ago, Snufflelufagus said:

Could be, The managers tactics and training methods are substandard (compared to what we are used to). Or the manager doesn't really know what player is best in what position.

I remember when LJ signed every player commented how vastly improved training had become so think we can discount your theory. 

[JasonM88]

Just now, Up The City! said:

I remember when LJ signed every player commented how vastly improved training had become so think we can discount your theory. 

They did, Scott Golbourne commented how it's the most exciting training he's done. 

[marmite]

2 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

I find it quite refreshing that he gives us this information. I also believe anything he says in the media he has already said to the players in private.

Yet when he first joined us and we were doing well everyone was creaming about how they could listen to him talk football for hours, now suddenly were not winning and he gets criticised for something he was once praised for?

LJ is right, on this bad run you certainly do learn a lot about people. Supporters included.

In life I've employed people I would want in the trenches with me, people with real steel and with the spirit to fight until the end.

LJ is simply saying if you've not got the fight I'll play players who have.

If the one's he is playing now are our best hope, God help us. I think we have better in the squad. But its all hearsay. None of us know what's going on. But if there has been confrontation then it needs to be concluded now. If the senior pro's have approached LJ and said along the lines of "you are doing things wrong" and LJ has replied along the lines of "I'm doing things right" and we have won one in eleven; who do you think is right? Maybe the fact that the Club are saying nothing at this time means that its just a storm in a teacup. I hope that's the case. I actually think things will calm down and we will finish about mid table and beat Fleetwood in the replay.

['Orns]

2 hours ago, husshen said:

LJ doesn't seem to have much self-awareness. Someone senior needs to pull him aside and say, "Mate, you talk far too much in the media. Just do what every other manager does and keep it dull for a month or two"

Someone tweeted after the game that it was odd that LJ hadn't done an interview (then within seconds it appeared)

He can't win. I've no problem with the comment about 'finding out stuff about people', those without an agenda will understand the context. Those with an agenda will find something in it, but lets be honest, in life you do find out things about people when the going gets tough. I'm sure we can all recount situations that we've found ourselves in where this has held true

If 3 players have gone to SL to tell tales, and I'm led to believe it's true, then it's a poor show. Obviously I have no idea what LJ is like to work for, but if I was lucky enough to enjoy the lifestyle, and the wages that these 3 players do I think (I hope!) I'd be inclined to knuckle the **** down and get on with it. Then dream of a wonderful move next summer, once I'd proven my worth at my current club

I'm worried about what is going on, but for the life of me, I just cannot agree that another change is the answer. Hard work, getting stuck in and working hard for your mates, and the people that pay your wages seems like a bloody good place to start though

[Kid in the Riot]

10 minutes ago, Woodsy said:

Someone tweeted after the game that it was odd that LJ hadn't done an interview (then within seconds it appeared)

He can't win. I've no problem with the comment about 'finding out stuff about people', those without an agenda will understand the context. Those with an agenda will find something in it, but lets be honest, in life you do find out things about people when the going gets tough. I'm sure we can all recount situations that we've found ourselves in where this has held true

If 3 players have gone to SL to tell tales, and I'm led to believe it's true, then it's a poor show. Obviously I have no idea what LJ is like to work for, but if I was lucky enough to enjoy the lifestyle, and the wages that these 3 players do I think (I hope!) I'd be inclined to knuckle the **** down and get on with it. Then dream of a wonderful move next summer, once I'd proven my worth at my current club

I'm worried about what is going on, but for the life of me, I just cannot agree that another change is the answer. Hard work, getting stuck in and working hard for your mates, and the people that pay your wages seems like a bloody good place to start though

Can't argue with that.

What we need is another Divvy style character to go into the dressing room and remind everyone how privileged they should feel to be representing our club and being remunerated extremely well for it. Put your ego's to one side, stop jeopardising the C'ship status of Bristol City and get out there and FIGHT for the club!

[Dollymarie]

1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Can't argue with that.

What we need is another Divvy style character to go into the dressing room and remind everyone how privileged they should feel to be representing our club and being remunerated extremely well for it. Put your ego's to one side, stop jeopardising the C'ship status of Bristol City and get out there and FIGHT for the club!

I'll do it!  

[Up The City!]

14 minutes ago, marmite said:

If the one's he is playing now are our best hope, God help us. I think we have better in the squad. But its all hearsay. None of us know what's going on. But if there has been confrontation then it needs to be concluded now. If the senior pro's have approached LJ and said along the lines of "you are doing things wrong" and LJ has replied along the lines of "I'm doing things right" and we have won one in eleven; who do you think is right? Maybe the fact that the Club are saying nothing at this time means that its just a storm in a teacup. I hope that's the case. I actually think things will calm down and we will finish about mid table and beat Fleetwood in the replay.

If players have confronted LJ then imo they should be removed from the club, do you think Sir Alex woukd stand for that? He didn't with Becks, Stam etc.

In no way at all do I think this is true I'm just replying to your theory. 

['Orns]

1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Can't argue with that.

What we need is another Divvy style character to go into the dressing room and remind everyone how privileged they should feel to be representing our club and being remunerated extremely well for it. Put your ego's to one side, stop jeopardising the C'ship status of Bristol City and get out there and FIGHT for the club!

What were the stats in the 10 games before and after the Divvy chat? 

I seem to remember we were on a terrible run, that got turned around pretty much straight away. And we all know what happened the next season......

[marmite]

1 minute ago, Up The City! said:

If players have confronted LJ then imo they should be removed from the club, do you think Sir Alex woukd stand for that? He didn't with Becks, Stam etc.

In no way at all do I think this is true I'm just replying to your theory. 

Difference is Sir Alex never went on such a bad run as LJ. He had earned his respect with results and trophies. LJ is a long way off.

[Welcome To The Jungle]

 

[JasonM88]

1 minute ago, Woodsy said:

What were the stats in the 10 games before and after the Divvy chat? 

I seem to remember we were on a terrible run, that got turned around pretty much straight away. And we all know what happened the next season......

It was the gillingham game when it happended. If I remember correctly we ended up 2-1 winners with gillet scoring the winner