When your two highest paid players complain...

[BigAl&Toby]

49 minutes ago, cityloyal473 said:

 So you think this is ok?

"ranted and raved then turned to the non used players ( about six of them ) including Reid and Freeman etc to get out as they were irrevelant and told other staff in there to go as well."

Yep. If the rumour was he'd sat them all down with a PowerPoint presentation or used management mumbo jumbo he'd have been equally criticised.

Poor bloke. He just can't win. In either sense.

And of course for all we know it might be a load of b******s anyway.....

[Guest]

Just now, Londoner said:

GON has always been labelled as someone with an excellent attitude and genuine person. He certainly isnt someone to rock the boat or cause uneccesaey disharmony.

 

I think he's struggling to accept age is catching up with him and becoming petulant. 

Started well but faded fast. I think Norwich got it right, one year more was his limit; if even that. 

[petehinton]

Heard much of the same for a while. Flinty isn't all that happy too. 

To echo what's been said, a side with Gary O'Neil in CM, Lee Tomlin in CAM, Flint and Maggers CB, and Tammy Abraham upfront, isn't near the bottom 3 if managed correctly. 

[BigAl&Toby]

Just now, petehinton said:

Heard much of the same for a while. Flinty isn't all that happy too. 

To echo what's been said, a side with Gary O'Neil in CM, Lee Tomlin in CAM, Flint and Maggers CB, and Tammy Abraham upfront, isn't near the bottom 3 if managed correctly. 

It is if it's s**t elsewhere. Like full backs and a keeper.

[JasonM88]

38 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

Nothing in this thread is at all libellous? 

There's not. 

[exAtyeoMax]

2 hours ago, formerly known as ivan said:

So I summary...

A few senior members of the team have gone to SL and said I don't like LJ because I have a give right to be picked week in week out because of what I get paid. LJ shouldn't get a say in it even though he is the manager...

GON can **** off. After a decent start he has been dog shit for ages and should maybe look at himself before blaming anyone else!

Tomlin, well I can't remember the last time he put in a decent performance and if he isn't playing well should be dropped. No one should be undroppable!

Paterson, well, the biggest mistake LJ has made since coming here was signing this poor excuse for a footballer in the first place!

After the last few weeks I have found myself in the LJ out camp but players going to SL to moan about LJ can do one. Sort yourselves out and earn your place back through training hard and decent performances, not through whatever reputation you think you may have!

Do you know for definite, that was what they complained about? It could be something completely different, and totally justified.

Does anyone know what the complaint was? Just because someone complains it doesn't make them a knob, or arrogant, a bad influence, or a rotter…

[kiwicolin]

Don't believe it. 

[EstoniaTallinnRed]

3 hours ago, Pezo said:

Can't give into this type of player power. This almost makes LJ unsackable IMO, if you sack a manager because the players complain then that is a slippery slope. It doesn't matter if the complaint is the reason he gets the sack or not the players will believe they hold the power.

They do hold the power! If the players don't like the manager, head coach, whatever, or don't think he is selecting the right tactics and shapes for them to play well,  then all they have to do is lose enough matches and bingo, nine times out of ten that person is gone.  I don't agree with it myself, but I believe it happens quite a lot in the modern game.  I personally think this is happening at AG and although I don't think SL will sack LJ yet, there will come a time when his position will be untenable and he will have to go.  Unless of course, for some reason, new players etc turn the results around for LJ.  We will certainly see in the next few weeks what the outcome will be, because SL will not allow LJ to take the club back down to L1, this I am certain of.

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

3 hours ago, WestonRobin said:

If only we had someone checking if they were the right 'fit' and whether they possess the right DNA!

It's a poser, and no mistake.

[samo II]

8 minutes ago, Olé said:

Probably the single thing I find most hard to comprehend anymore, is how a club like ours, has in the blink of an eye gone from a financially responsible and (for this level at least) lower budget team, to one that throws £3m at a player that it wasn't going to build the team around, £2m for another that it's never going to play, £1.5m on another who isn't ready yet. Easy to have hindsight, but doesn't change that it's insane amounts of money on our history.

This is something I was thinking on today a lot, mainly in light of watching (for my sins) the Channel 5 Football show this morning and seeing Wigan give a debut to Callum Connolly, an England youth team mate of Taylor Moore's, who by all accounts massively impressed, including scoring two goals to win the game for them.

He's on loan from Everton, only arriving the day prior, and slotted into what has been a relatively poor defence for this division immediately, and has less experience in first team football that Moore did when he arrived here; indeed, much less than Moore can claim now.

See, I'd wager Wigan have spent next nothing on this lad, and had no time to assess and integrate him into their team, yet they have enough faith in him to fire him into their struggling team in a pressure game, and he's shone.  We've seemingly wrapped Moore in cotton wool for most of the season, only giving him chances in cup games, or when desperate to hold on (Ipswich being an example; a terrible combination of circumstance to use a young player in), and then have farmed him out on loan, even when facing an injury to a regular central defender.

It feels like a waste of a million quid right now.

He may still come good, and I hope he does so with us, but it highlights the bizarre nature of several of our buys this year, and what feels like an almost arrogant approach to recruitment, that seems to have taken the view we need young and hungry players, and invested heavily in this, then claimed they are not ready when we revert to, use or say we need to buy more experienced players.

Moore cost a million, Engvall cost more again, Lucic for a nominal fee, O'Dowda for over a million, money paid for Jonny Smith, compensation paid for Brownhill, even a likely investment in bringing Tammy here - we've shipped out a lot of money on young players, and have spent time nurturing them here (only Moore had just gone out on loan), while the one who has had the most faith placed in him (and we've seen this repaid ten fold) is Tammy.  Brownhill has shown signs of developing, but until recently his appearances have been limited, as they certainly have for the rest of the group mentioned.

On top of this we've paid big money for Magnusson and Tomlin, likely decent wages for GO'N on two year deal, was well as fees for Paterson, and now the trio since the window opened - we've spent plenty on recruitment, both on youth and experience, and our only achievement is we have now equalled our worse league run ever.  

We buy experience and it doesn't seem to improve us; we buy highly rated youth and we barely play it - what is the plan here?

If we'd bought all those youth mentioned and threw them straight in, I think most would applaud the experiment of seeing if they'd sink or swim; we'd either end up developing an exciting young team, or need to bring in some experience to steady things.  But we bought a blend, and cannot seemingly find any kind of balance, and now have talent youth players plumping up our under 23s (Engvall) while we spend more and more on experienced players to paper over the cracks. 

Sorry for the ramble, but I just look at other sides (Preston being a prime example) and wonder how we can spend so much, and bring in so much talent, and yet still have the bulk of the team being the League One promotion team.  It's bizarre.

[man in the middle]

Just now, Up The City! said:

Can this thread just be closed? None of us know what is or isn't going on, many people are quoting things as fact when in truth none of us have a bloody clue.

someone talking sense, it's all he said she said my brothers uncle's next door neighbour who cuts the grass said this, come on guys and girls!

[AppyDAZE]

So looking forward to looking back to these times. It'll all come out one day and all go down in City folklore.

[Fiale]

Hypothetical - Just imagine we get relegated, all our best players leave and we sack Johnson. During closed season all the players start handing in their transfer request and we are back to square one in League 1. We later we hear that Johnson's training sessions, coaching, and tactics were poor, incoherent, confusing and that all the more senior player who played under better coaches, better teams and setups all knew it, and instead of saying something just kept quiet, collected their fat paychecks and just carried on as normal on a sinking ship - You would all be furious, calling for their heads, saying they should have done or said something....  some of the senior pros going to SL with concerns is the right thing to do (hell we don't even know what was said) if valid hopefully things will be sorted, if whinging brats they will be told so - surely that's what we would want ?

[stokes7]

1 hour ago, cityloyal473 said:

 So you think this is ok?

"ranted and raved then turned to the non used players ( about six of them ) including Reid and Freeman etc to get out as they were irrevelant and told other staff in there to go as well."

To be honest and this is from his post match interviews, he's coming across as an egotistical d**k everything he says is all about him, how he feels, how he's hurting etc etc

[Dr Balls]

26 minutes ago, samo II said:

Sorry for the ramble, but I just look at other sides (Preston being a prime example) and wonder how we can spend so much, and bring in so much talent, and yet still have the bulk of the team being the League One promotion team.  It's bizarre.

Not bizarre at all. Ashton is good at spotting players and spending SL's money. Plus they have been sold a dream of the project. Unfortunately BS of the highest order, worthy of Donald Trump at his best/worst, when the Head Coach is inexperienced and not up to it, and had no idea of how to blend all the talents available into a consistent winning team. Reminds me of my 10 year old son in a sweet shop. Paralysed by too many choices...

[Septic Peg]

What I don't get is why if all these players that allegedly have an issue with LJ, why isn't Wilbs sorting this?

Wilbs as team captain (is he club captain too or is it Korey?) is the link between the management and the team. It's well known that Wilbs is roomies with LT, probably because Wilbs' calmness and diplomacy may reflect on LT.

Where is Wilbs? Or perhaps he too is in agreement with all the alleged negativity?

[Chivs]

1 hour ago, JoeAman08 said:

On his day, sure but when was the last good day he had? Reid can unlock a defense and puts in a shift for the team. I'll never question Tomlin's talent but if 6 months in with a new team with fans that called for him all of a sudden can't give his all anymore then I don't want him playing. 

Oh dear god. I do despair sometimes.  Reid isn't fit to tie Tomlin's shoelaces.  I'd crawl naked over broken glass to watch Tomlin do keepie-uppies.  I wouldn't cross the road to watch Reid play (why would I)?

I'm not saying Tomlin is the Messiah but when God picks his 5-a-side he looks for Lee first.

Tomlin doesn't know how to "not play".  He's a kid, amazed that someone is paying him to do what he enjoys most.  He just wants to play and win.

Tomlin hasn't played well for a while.  Then again, name me another player who has played well?  Tammy maybe (another kid amazed) but no-one else...

[EnclosureSurge]

5 hours ago, boss hogg said:

totally wrong thing to do , its under mining the manager { and i cant stand lj } but theres something very wrong at the moment, didnt carey complain to sl about garry j a fews years back? he went soon afterwards i believe.

Do you mean Carey left or Johnson left?

 

[JoeAman08]

1 hour ago, Nomad said:

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but if we could go back to the summer now I would not be wanted LT as our marquee signing. Not enough effort and not a 'team' player imho. 

I wanted him here as much as anyone. Just saying if he's not performing at what he's good at he provides nothing else. He isn't immune to dropping and if he doesn't like it and wants to sulk and not play to his ability then I'd rather Reid. 

[ontariored]

I think it was the latter. Carey was still playing for McInnes...

[JoeAman08]

8 minutes ago, Chivs said:

Oh dear god. I do despair sometimes.  Reid isn't fit to tie Tomlin's shoelaces.  I'd crawl naked over broken glass to watch Tomlin do keepie-uppies.  I wouldn't cross the road to watch Reid play (why would I)?

I'm not saying Tomlin is the Messiah but when God picks his 5-a-side he looks for Lee first.

Tomlin doesn't know how to "not play".  He's a kid, amazed that someone is paying him to do what he enjoys most.  He just wants to play and win.

Tomlin hasn't played well for a while.  Then again, name me another player who has played well?  Tammy maybe (another kid amazed) but no-one else...

Maybe not but Tomlin isn't doing anything. Just roaming around not doing anything in particular. Dropping deep when we need him closer to the box and strikers. I don't think it's any coincidence some of our best performances and Lee's have been when they played together. At least with Bobby we get workrate and athleticism. Until Tomlin gets a bit more mature and starts playing like we all know he can, he should be dropped like anyone else. 

[Lympsham Red]

My crazy theory is that maybe, the issue Lee Johnson has isn't with his tactics, and isn't with the players at his disposal, but is simply that he's shite at man-management. Ok, I'll be the first to say that nothing I've heard on the grape vine has been backed up with any "real" sources, that's true, but we're all here to speculate, right? Over the past few weeks, I've heard stories of LJ falling out with Lee Tomlin, Gary O'Neil, Richard O'Donnell, and also not exactly getting on very well with Marlon Pack and Scott Golbourne. To add to that, I can't imagine Adam Matthews took too kindly to Lee Johnson's comments about him earlier in the season, but that's to a lesser extent. To me, the issue we have is that Johnson seems to be too polarising a character to be a manager. He falls out with too many players. Managers are real people, and so they might fall out with a player or two over their entire career because sometimes people get so much on our nerves we can't hide it. But good managers try their upmost to avoid those sorts of confrontation. For us, it appears we have a manager who falls out with everyone, especially our most senior and talented players. You can't expect your team to win when players aren't being picked not because of their ability, but because "Lee doesn't like them". Johnson is only 35. He's new to this game. Maybe he's not up to his responsibilities of getting on with everyone. I believe that's the problem - LJ isn't easy to get along with, he holds grudges unprofessionally, and ultimately, that leads to a complete lack of squad harmony. That's why it's my belief he should go.

[Up The City!]

1 hour ago, JasonM88 said:

There's not. 

So people saying for certainty that this happened and that happened despite having zero evidence and not even any sources isn't libellous? 

[coxyboy]

5 hours ago, Cov 77 said:

Cannot and won't give source but is absolutely solid , changing room after the match , Johnson lost it completely , blamed Little on penalty, Bryan on second, ranted and raved then turned to the non used players ( about six of them ) including Reid and Freeman etc to get out as they were irrevelant and  told other staff in there to go as well.

Has fallen out with O'Neill big time and Tomlin has told him he has lost his respect , others are fed up of the constant chopping and changing and players don't understand what he wants from them, fair to say he's lost the dressing room.

What lansdown and Ashton have to understand it's our club not there's , but it's the clique that's keeping him in a job, if they don't act to get rid of him this could get much worse.

I don't doubt this for a second. GON and Toms had to start for me but it's clear he's takin taking the piss out of the pair with LT getting 5 and GON unused. Once the manager has lost the players it's game over 

[Strawberry2157.]

31 minutes ago, Lympsham Red said:

My crazy theory is that maybe, the issue Lee Johnson has isn't with his tactics, and isn't with the players at his disposal, but is simply that he's shite at man-management. Ok, I'll be the first to say that nothing I've heard on the grape vine has been backed up with any "real" sources, that's true, but we're all here to speculate, right? Over the past few weeks, I've heard stories of LJ falling out with Lee Tomlin, Gary O'Neil, Richard O'Donnell, and also not exactly getting on very well with Marlon Pack and Scott Golbourne. To add to that, I can't imagine Adam Matthews took too kindly to Lee Johnson's comments about him earlier in the season, but that's to a lesser extent. To me, the issue we have is that Johnson seems to be too polarising a character to be a manager. He falls out with too many players. Managers are real people, and so they might fall out with a player or two over their entire career because sometimes people get so much on our nerves we can't hide it. But good managers try their upmost to avoid those sorts of confrontation. For us, it appears we have a manager who falls out with everyone, especially our most senior and talented players. You can't expect your team to win when players aren't being picked not because of their ability, but because "Lee doesn't like them". Johnson is only 35. He's new to this game. Maybe he's not up to his responsibilities of getting on with everyone. I believe that's the problem - LJ isn't easy to get along with, he holds grudges unprofessionally, and ultimately, that leads to a complete lack of squad harmony. That's why it's my belief he should go.

Nail/head!!

[coxyboy]

2 hours ago, petehinton said:

Heard much of the same for a while. Flinty isn't all that happy too. 

To echo what's been said, a side with Gary O'Neil in CM, Lee Tomlin in CAM, Flint and Maggers CB, and Tammy Abraham upfront, isn't near the bottom 3 if managed correctly. 

Absolutely bang on 

[Strawberry2157.]

This isn't just recently either. These comments started last season. 

[Fiale]

1 hour ago, Chivs said:

Oh dear god. I do despair sometimes.  Reid isn't fit to tie Tomlin's shoelaces.  I'd crawl naked over broken glass to watch Tomlin do keepie-uppies.  I wouldn't cross the road to watch Reid play (why would I)?

I'm not saying Tomlin is the Messiah but when God picks his 5-a-side he looks for Lee first.

Tomlin doesn't know how to "not play".  He's a kid, amazed that someone is paying him to do what he enjoys most.  He just wants to play and win.

Tomlin hasn't played well for a while.  Then again, name me another player who has played well?  Tammy maybe (another kid amazed) but no-one else...

 

He's been a very very naughty boy !

[formerly known as ivan]

6 hours ago, Cov 77 said:

Cannot and won't give source but is absolutely solid , changing room after the match , Johnson lost it completely , blamed Little on penalty, Bryan on second, ranted and raved then turned to the non used players ( about six of them ) including Reid and Freeman etc to get out as they were irrevelant and  told other staff in there to go as well.

Has fallen out with O'Neill big time and Tomlin has told him he has lost his respect , others are fed up of the constant chopping and changing and players don't understand what he wants from them, fair to say he's lost the dressing room.

What lansdown and Ashton have to understand it's our club not there's , but it's the clique that's keeping him in a job, if they don't act to get rid of him this could get much worse.

Sorry but even if this was true, can you blame him? 

To clarify again, I am very much in the LJ out camp after recent results however questionable team selection and tactics have been recent. LJ has been let down by the players time and time again prior to this.

Yesteday more so than ever he was let down by the players who were on the pitch. He wasn't responsible for Little's stupid challenge, nor the fact a player ran in unmarked at the far post, nor that everyone stood of the man who scored from 25 yards.

There were 18,000 fans there yesterday who had they had the chance would have been in that dressing room saying exactly the same thing.

Clough and Ferguson are two names that spring to mind when having a rant in the dressing room. Not putting LJ anywhere near those two but no one would bat an eyelid when they done it.

Players ****** up yesterday and I for one am glad to hear LJ let them know it! Bunch of overpaid pussies!!!

[Xiled]

1 hour ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Clough and Ferguson are two names that spring to mind when having a rant in the dressing room. Not putting LJ anywhere near those two but no one would bat an eyelid when they done it.

Therein lies part of the problem. If I was a player and got a rollicking from Alec Ferguson or Brian Clough, it would have probably scared me into playing better. I'm not sure the same treatment from LJ would have the same effect.

We didn't employ a "hairdryer" coach, we employed a "young and upcoming tactician".  As harsh as it is, tearing strips off Tomlin or O'Neill can only backfire. And that might have happened.

In an average job if you complain to the top boss, you're looking to effect a change. In football, that only means one thing - you want the coach/manager to be replaced. That's why it's serious when it happens.

And as for the suggestions that the club move the dissenters on, that isn't possible I'm afraid. You might get them out on loan but the likes of Tomlin will not drop to L1 after taking a punt on us. No club in the Championship will now risk his potential for disharmony. He's going nowhere.

When senior pros take their grievances to owners/chairmen, there's only one outcome. We'll be job receiving applications and expressions of interest very soon....