Our Defenders; Standing Off The Opposition

[havanatopia]

It remains vivid in my memory from the Reading game and came home to roost once more when I saw those shocking goals against Cardiff; May I suggest to all those who have watched this turmoil unfold since early Nov (?) that there is something wrong in the head of our back line that smacks of useless or 'frankly I don't give a damn' or, that, with 'I want the little wretch fired so am gonna give their striker plenty of room'.

What I have seen in those two games, when the opposition have been bearing down on goal is nothing short of diabolical. I would go as far as to say i have not seen defending that bad. Actually I cannot remember worse defending since Forbes Phillipson Masters and at least he tried. 

Our back line are supposed to be decent professionals on thousands of pounds a week. I don't accept that they are not good enough. Look at the goals we are leaking across all of the matches and tell me if you see a pattern. The single goal smacks of managing losses.

I need to ask the question even if it sounds stupid; what on earth is going on?

To my mind they are not playing for the manager. That means its curtains for Lee.

Here is my prediction for the next 2 matches:-

Scrape through on penalties against Fleetwood against all the odds and then draw at Forest and that should be the end of that.

 

p.s. sorry mods.. this should be in general football chat. Please move.

Edited January 17, 2017 by havanatopia

[Son of Fred]

2 hours ago, havanatopia said:

It remains vivid in my memory from the Reading game and came home to roost once more when I saw those shocking goals against Cardiff; May I suggest to all those who have watched this turmoil unfold since early Nov (?) that there is something wrong in the head of our back line that smacks of useless or 'frankly I don't give a damn' or, that, with 'I want the little wretch fired so am gonna give their striker plenty of room'.

What I have seen in those two games, when the opposition have been bearing down on goal is nothing short of diabolical. I would go as far as to say i have not seen defending that bad. Actually I cannot remember worse defending since Forbes Phillipson Masters and at least he tried. 

Our back line are supposed to be decent professionals on thousands of pounds a week. I don't accept that they are not good enough. Look at the goals we are leaking across all of the matches and tell me if you see a pattern. The single goal smacks of managing losses.

I need to ask the question even if it sounds stupid; what on earth is going on?

To my mind they are not playing for the manager. That means its curtains for Lee.

Here is my prediction for the next 2 matches:-

Scrape through on penalties against Fleetwood against all the odds and then draw at Forest and that should be the end of that.

 

p.s. sorry mods.. this should be in general football chat. Please move.

Mate,was at the Fleetwood home game and we were backing off then at every opportunity and inviting them on.expect more of the same tonight.

[RumRed]

2 hours ago, havanatopia said:

It remains vivid in my memory from the Reading game and came home to roost once more when I saw those shocking goals against Cardiff; May I suggest to all those who have watched this turmoil unfold since early Nov (?) that there is something wrong in the head of our back line that smacks of useless or 'frankly I don't give a damn' or, that, with 'I want the little wretch fired so am gonna give their striker plenty of room'.

What I have seen in those two games, when the opposition have been bearing down on goal is nothing short of diabolical. I would go as far as to say i have not seen defending that bad. Actually I cannot remember worse defending since Forbes Phillipson Masters and at least he tried. 

Our back line are supposed to be decent professionals on thousands of pounds a week. I don't accept that they are not good enough. Look at the goals we are leaking across all of the matches and tell me if you see a pattern. The single goal smacks of managing losses.

I need to ask the question even if it sounds stupid; what on earth is going on?

To my mind they are not playing for the manager. That means its curtains for Lee.

Here is my prediction for the next 2 matches:-

Scrape through on penalties against Fleetwood against all the odds and then draw at Forest and that should be the end of that.

 

p.s. sorry mods.. this should be in general football chat. Please move.

Condensed version:

Crap defence in the South West of England.

 

 

(With apologies to @BigTone)

Edited January 17, 2017 by RumRed

[Hampshire reds]

If that is what the coach tells them to do then that is a disgrace. If you look at 2 teams in the past who had great defensive records ie arsenal and man u. Arsenal had Dixon. Bould .Adams and Winterburn. Man u  had neville pally Bruce and  irwin.  They iworked together as a four who never gave the opposition an inch. they used to squeeze the life out of them. If they did get past  they then had to beat 2 of the best keepers to ever play the game. I would get clips of them to show our defenders  how to defend. Its not rocket science it's about communication. And commitment.  

 

 

[redpole]

Who is standing off our opposition?? Is he a new player we are linked with?? I thought this was transfer section.

[Charlie BCFC]

First of all why is this in the transfer forum second of all it's not too bad until the last 20 minutes because Johnson doesn't know how to protect a lead .

[Pickle Rick]

On the contrary, as of around about a month ago, City recorded the most key passes in the league. Problem at both ends of the pitch?

Edited January 17, 2017 by Captain Hindsight

[spudski]

5 hours ago, havanatopia said:

It remains vivid in my memory from the Reading game and came home to roost once more when I saw those shocking goals against Cardiff; May I suggest to all those who have watched this turmoil unfold since early Nov (?) that there is something wrong in the head of our back line that smacks of useless or 'frankly I don't give a damn' or, that, with 'I want the little wretch fired so am gonna give their striker plenty of room'.

What I have seen in those two games, when the opposition have been bearing down on goal is nothing short of diabolical. I would go as far as to say i have not seen defending that bad. Actually I cannot remember worse defending since Forbes Phillipson Masters and at least he tried. 

Our back line are supposed to be decent professionals on thousands of pounds a week. I don't accept that they are not good enough. Look at the goals we are leaking across all of the matches and tell me if you see a pattern. The single goal smacks of managing losses.

I need to ask the question even if it sounds stupid; what on earth is going on?

To my mind they are not playing for the manager. That means its curtains for Lee.

Here is my prediction for the next 2 matches:-

Scrape through on penalties against Fleetwood against all the odds and then draw at Forest and that should be the end of that.

 

p.s. sorry mods.. this should be in general football chat. Please move.

Certain players are playing with fear mate.

They don't back off when we are going trying to score. They back off when we are fearful of conceding, either after scoring or protecting a lead towards the end of a game.

It's not intentional, or something being asked of them by LJ. In fact it's the opposite. I've heard LJ and Pembo, both shouting at the players to keep pressing towards the end of games.

The pressure is getting to some of these lads...and by backing off, some of them think sublimely they are giving themselves some time and room. Plus it seems, some don't want to take the responsibility.

I do however think that you should analyse a little closer and realise some of these players aren't good enough in certain positions at this level. Joe Bryan as Left back or wing back and Mark Little are two imo. Bryan is fine with the ball at his feet when offensively...but not good enough as a defender imo.

We've conceded so many goals this season, from players not stopping crosses coming over. Little and Bryan give way too much room...or 'dive in' and get beaten. They are not good enough and have been at fault for many of our losses this season. Their positional play offensively is also awful.

Another point, that I've also mentioned before. It's become apparent that LJ wants these players disciplined and keeping shape. They concentrate on moving into position...which they do. However...and this seems to be the biggest problem....they get into position and then think they've done enough. They switch off, and actually seem to forget, they have to do something in that position...not just stand there.

I get the impression that they are so focussed on keeping shape, that they've actually forgotten to play football. You have the other extreme...where Tomlin goes 'wandering' and loses shape...but actually plays football and try's to create something or tackle.

It's about being able to play football, create and defend properly when under pressure...just not when winning and feeling confident. Some of these lads can't hack the pressure...and their flaws are magnified even more.

[havanatopia]

55 minutes ago, spudski said:

Certain players are playing with fear mate.

They don't back off when we are going trying to score. They back off when we are fearful of conceding, either after scoring or protecting a lead towards the end of a game.

It's not intentional, or something being asked of them by LJ. In fact it's the opposite. I've heard LJ and Pembo, both shouting at the players to keep pressing towards the end of games.

The pressure is getting to some of these lads...and by backing off, some of them think sublimely they are giving themselves some time and room. Plus it seems, some don't want to take the responsibility.

I do however think that you should analyse a little closer and realise some of these players aren't good enough in certain positions at this level. Joe Bryan as Left back or wing back and Mark Little are two imo. Bryan is fine with the ball at his feet when offensively...but not good enough as a defender imo.

We've conceded so many goals this season, from players not stopping crosses coming over. Little and Bryan give way too much room...or 'dive in' and get beaten. They are not good enough and have been at fault for many of our losses this season. Their positional play offensively is also awful.

Another point, that I've also mentioned before. It's become apparent that LJ wants these players disciplined and keeping shape. They concentrate on moving into position...which they do. However...and this seems to be the biggest problem....they get into position and then think they've done enough. They switch off, and actually seem to forget, they have to do something in that position...not just stand there.

I get the impression that they are so focussed on keeping shape, that they've actually forgotten to play football. You have the other extreme...where Tomlin goes 'wandering' and loses shape...but actually plays football and try's to create something or tackle.

It's about being able to play football, create and defend properly when under pressure...just not when winning and feeling confident. Some of these lads can't hack the pressure...and their flaws are magnified even more.

Appreciate the full on reply Spuds. 

On your point about players not being good enough... we have or had players in positions to replace Bryan and Little that were or are, arguably better. That being said the blame lies squarely with the management team if they have insufficient quality or cover. Has the loan window rule change precluded all incomings from the summer until Dec 31st? if not no excuses. if so then they had plenty of time in the summer to assess these positions and as has been written over and over again Joe Bryan is no right back.

The rest of your remarks answers a lot and again points the blame squarely at the management team for either lacking the skills to see it, instruct it or motivate it in terms of how the game should be played with our set up. In my opinion this only highlights a lack of knowledge of the game and not just at this level and that, for me, is worrying.

Many have said we have become allarmingly static since Holden has arrived. It is as if JP has been set aside in favour of him with Lee seemingly lapping up his advise to what currently looks like a slow crawl to his P45.

P.S. MODS... PLEASE MOVE TO CORRECT GENERAL FOOTBALL CHAT FOLDER and apologies again for posting here y'all.

Edited January 17, 2017 by havanatopia

[Richard Head]

Cardiff's penalty was due to brainless defending by Little. Another goal was weak marking by centre backs, none of whom got in position to challenge for the ball when it was crossed. The third was a combination of a defender (not sure which) failing to close the attacker down, turning his back as the shot came in (unforgiveable) and Frankie not being good enough or tall enough to reach the shot. So poor defending all round.

[spudski]

32 minutes ago, Richard Head said:

Cardiff's penalty was due to brainless defending by Little. Another goal was weak marking by centre backs, none of whom got in position to challenge for the ball when it was crossed. The third was a combination of a defender (not sure which) failing to close the attacker down, turning his back as the shot came in (unforgiveable) and Frankie not being good enough or tall enough to reach the shot. So poor defending all round.

Second...Liitle and Brownhill didn't close down their men to stop the cross...this again resulted in a goal. Bryan got bullied off ball.

Third...Bryan came rushing out to wide man...this time got too close, and beaten...central defence didn't react quick enough to close down shot.

Liitle and Brownhill and Bryan...all at fault defensively.

[1960maaan]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

Certain players are playing with fear mate.

They don't back off when we are going trying to score. They back off when we are fearful of conceding, either after scoring or protecting a lead towards the end of a game.

It's not intentional, or something being asked of them by LJ. In fact it's the opposite. I've heard LJ and Pembo, both shouting at the players to keep pressing towards the end of games.

The pressure is getting to some of these lads...and by backing off, some of them think sublimely they are giving themselves some time and room. Plus it seems, some don't want to take the responsibility.

I do however think that you should analyse a little closer and realise some of these players aren't good enough in certain positions at this level. Joe Bryan as Left back or wing back and Mark Little are two imo. Bryan is fine with the ball at his feet when offensively...but not good enough as a defender imo.

We've conceded so many goals this season, from players not stopping crosses coming over. Little and Bryan give way too much room...or 'dive in' and get beaten. They are not good enough and have been at fault for many of our losses this season. Their positional play offensively is also awful.

Another point, that I've also mentioned before. It's become apparent that LJ wants these players disciplined and keeping shape. They concentrate on moving into position...which they do. However...and this seems to be the biggest problem....they get into position and then think they've done enough. They switch off, and actually seem to forget, they have to do something in that position...not just stand there.

I get the impression that they are so focussed on keeping shape, that they've actually forgotten to play football. You have the other extreme...where Tomlin goes 'wandering' and loses shape...but actually plays football and try's to create something or tackle.

It's about being able to play football, create and defend properly when under pressure...just not when winning and feeling confident. Some of these lads can't hack the pressure...and their flaws are magnified even more.

Good summing up @spudski , I've said before how you can visibly see the confidence drain on conceding a goal , first against Reading and Preston the whole team looked 5 inches shorter. Funnily enough , I thought they came back well Vs Cardiff and we started panicking after 'that' back heel . We were starting to move out, back heel puts us back under pressure and they never seemed to have any control after.  I think if Joe attacks the ball he at least stops the header, but players are too involved in stopping the attacker rather than winning the ball these days. The 3rd , even though the Ref did block one player (Pack?) Pilkington had 2-3 touches before he shot. 

[Cowshed]

9 hours ago, havanatopia said:

It remains vivid in my memory from the Reading game and came home to roost once more when I saw those shocking goals against Cardiff; May I suggest to all those who have watched this turmoil unfold since early Nov (?) that there is something wrong in the head of our back line that smacks of useless or 'frankly I don't give a damn' or, that, with 'I want the little wretch fired so am gonna give their striker plenty of room'.

What I have seen in those two games, when the opposition have been bearing down on goal is nothing short of diabolical. I would go as far as to say i have not seen defending that bad. Actually I cannot remember worse defending since Forbes Phillipson Masters and at least he tried. 

Our back line are supposed to be decent professionals on thousands of pounds a week. I don't accept that they are not good enough. Look at the goals we are leaking across all of the matches and tell me if you see a pattern. The single goal smacks of managing losses.

I need to ask the question even if it sounds stupid; what on earth is going on?

To my mind they are not playing for the manager. That means its curtains for Lee.

Here is my prediction for the next 2 matches:-

Scrape through on penalties against Fleetwood against all the odds and then draw at Forest and that should be the end of that.

 

p.s. sorry mods.. this should be in general football chat. Please move.

Do you think George Graham changed his team by the week?

Do you think he expected Lee Dixon to play LB, LM, LWB, CM and left out in a timescale of a month in the manner Joe Bryan has?

What defensive lines are City playing? High? Low? It changes by the week by the half!

Where is the midfield in this? What line is there to deal with second balls? Two? One? They are often caught between tucking in and pressing/screening. It is uncoordinated.  Pressing is a basic, a basic honed on the training pitch. 

This is inept management of players who have been through lives of coaching drills, talking about triggers. depth, denying space ... Put into a world of soup with a fork by Lee Johnson.

It's comedy. Youth teams ... I am serious can have a better shape without the ball than BCFC.

These are Lee Johnson's players, He was part of bringing them in. He knows all about their DNA for the project!! He is not motivating, and above all not Managing his players adeptly.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Cowshed

[havanatopia]

Pretty darn damning summary of the state of affairs there Cowshed. It makes for very depressing reading.

[spudski]

48 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Do you think George Graham changed his team by the week?

Do you think he expected Lee Dixon to play LB, LM, LWB, CM and left out in a timescale of a month in the manner Joe Bryan has?

What defensive lines are City playing? High? Low? It changes by the week by the half!

Where is the midfield in this? What line is there to deal with second balls? Two? One? They are often caught between tucking in and pressing/screening. It is uncoordinated.  Pressing is a basic, a basic honed on the training pitch. 

This is inept management of players who have been through lives of coaching drills, talking about triggers. depth, denying space ... Put into a world of soup with a fork by Lee Johnson.

It's comedy. Youth teams ... I am serious can have a better shape without the ball than BCFC.

These are Lee Johnson's players, He was part of bringing them in. He knows all about their DNA for the project!! He is not motivating, and above all not Managing his players adeptly.

I agree with a lot of this...but it generally happens after we go behind or a team equalise...it doesn't happen all game. For long parts of a game, we do the right things, so we can do it, which leads me to believe certain players are reacting with fear.

l agree about us tucking in too much. Often our Lb or Rb will have to pull out wide to get into a better defensive position. This has led to a failure of defending crosses...actually stopping the ball come across. The second and third goals v Cardiff were prime examples of where are weaknesses are. Fullbacks out of position and not defending the cross...or when a ball comes inside, the back line sat too deep and not reacting quickly enough or pressing higher. Both...imo...our biggest problems.

[Im_over_ere]

10 hours ago, havanatopia said:

It remains vivid in my memory from the Reading game and came home to roost once more when I saw those shocking goals against Cardiff; May I suggest to all those who have watched this turmoil unfold since early Nov (?) that there is something wrong in the head of our back line that smacks of useless or 'frankly I don't give a damn' or, that, with 'I want the little wretch fired so am gonna give their striker plenty of room'.

What I have seen in those two games, when the opposition have been bearing down on goal is nothing short of diabolical. I would go as far as to say i have not seen defending that bad. Actually I cannot remember worse defending since Forbes Phillipson Masters and at least he tried. 

Our back line are supposed to be decent professionals on thousands of pounds a week. I don't accept that they are not good enough. Look at the goals we are leaking across all of the matches and tell me if you see a pattern. The single goal smacks of managing losses.

I need to ask the question even if it sounds stupid; what on earth is going on?

To my mind they are not playing for the manager. That means its curtains for Lee.

Here is my prediction for the next 2 matches:-

Scrape through on penalties against Fleetwood against all the odds and then draw at Forest and that should be the end of that.

 

p.s. sorry mods.. this should be in general football chat. Please move.

I think this is a good evaluation but I do question when you say they are not playing for the manager. Do you think that after 70 minutes the team agree to defend deep so as to let in goals and go against the managers game plan? I'm sure they are professional enough and want to win rather than prove a point.

What I think is that lack that very authoritative voice on the field, marshaling the troops. Could you ever imagine a player like Roy Keane just accepting the ways things are on the pitch - probably not. He would fight (sometimes literally!) to get the players motivated for the final 20 minutes.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

I agree with a lot of this...but it generally happens after we go behind or a team equalise...it doesn't happen all game. For long parts of a game, we do the right things, so we can do it, which leads me to believe certain players are reacting with fear.

l agree about us tucking in too much. Often our Lb or Rb will have to pull out wide to get into a better defensive position. This has led to a failure of defending crosses...actually stopping the ball come across. The second and third goals v Cardiff were prime examples of where are weaknesses are. Fullbacks out of position and not defending the cross...or when a ball comes inside, the back line sat too deep and not reacting quickly enough or pressing higher. Both...imo...our biggest problems.

 

What your are describing is a team in a malaise.  There is no clear defensive strategy present as a team.

If somebody asked me how do BCFC defend I could not describe clearly what is being attempted.

Have a go Spudski ... How are BCFC setting out to defend?  

.. 

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2017 by Cowshed

[RedM]

All I can remember from the Cardiff defending was Flint trying to do his best Tony Adams impression, and all this defenders deserting him, backing off and pushing out at the same time, it looked a mess.  This caught him on the back foot and constantly have to readjust. Add into that Brownhill,who was good going forward at least, seemingly marking the Ref and the rest us history. Shocking.

[Fiale]

4 hours ago, spudski said:

Certain players are playing with fear mate.

They don't back off when we are going trying to score. They back off when we are fearful of conceding, either after scoring or protecting a lead towards the end of a game.

It's not intentional, or something being asked of them by LJ. In fact it's the opposite. I've heard LJ and Pembo, both shouting at the players to keep pressing towards the end of games.

The pressure is getting to some of these lads...and by backing off, some of them think sublimely they are giving themselves some time and room. Plus it seems, some don't want to take the responsibility.

I do however think that you should analyse a little closer and realise some of these players aren't good enough in certain positions at this level. Joe Bryan as Left back or wing back and Mark Little are two imo. Bryan is fine with the ball at his feet when offensively...but not good enough as a defender imo.

We've conceded so many goals this season, from players not stopping crosses coming over. Little and Bryan give way too much room...or 'dive in' and get beaten. They are not good enough and have been at fault for many of our losses this season. Their positional play offensively is also awful.

Another point, that I've also mentioned before. It's become apparent that LJ wants these players disciplined and keeping shape. They concentrate on moving into position...which they do. However...and this seems to be the biggest problem....they get into position and then think they've done enough. They switch off, and actually seem to forget, they have to do something in that position...not just stand there.

I get the impression that they are so focussed on keeping shape, that they've actually forgotten to play football. You have the other extreme...where Tomlin goes 'wandering' and loses shape...but actually plays football and try's to create something or tackle.

It's about being able to play football, create and defend properly when under pressure...just not when winning and feeling confident. Some of these lads can't hack the pressure...and their flaws are magnified even more.

 

I think this has been mentioned so many times during this season, our LB/RB's are practically on the shoulder of the CB's - any ball down the wings, or towards the flags is going to be won by the opposition, and it's then a battle to prevent the cross... I just don;t understand why they are all so narrow, especially when we are also playing a really defensive midfield pairing in front of the CB's. This shape surely has to be what LJ wants, what they have been coached to do - I cannot remember seeing it so obvious in previous seasons, so has to be what they are being told/coached to do. 

[Cowshed]

43 minutes ago, Fiale said:

 

I think this has been mentioned so many times during this season, our LB/RB's are practically on the shoulder of the CB's - any ball down the wings, or towards the flags is going to be won by the opposition, and it's then a battle to prevent the cross... I just don;t understand why they are all so narrow, especially when we are also playing a really defensive midfield pairing in front of the CB's. This shape surely has to be what LJ wants, what they have been coached to do - I cannot remember seeing it so obvious in previous seasons, so has to be what they are being told/coached to do. 

If City are playing that deep the full backs should be tucking in and leaving the midfield to press the ball. The opposition then have two lines of four to play through. And City have four (at least)  players to defend the cross into the box.

The reality has been no pressure is being put onto the ball. Second balls go straight to the opposition as City sit in their box. Pressure onto more pressure is invited onto the defence.

City are wallowing the opposition to have it in some half arsed attempt at screening and attempting to nick the ball back.

What is evident is City are not attempting to press with energy above the half way line and push up. The opposite was true v Reading. Let them have it, get goalside, screen, nick ...

There is a word there energy. Some players trundle back, it's languid, there is a lack of leadership stating we stay here, press here, hold there, Flint does it, the rest  ... They do not know thoroughly what they are doing = Lee Johnson's tactics.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2017 by Cowshed

[spudski]

38 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

 

What your are describing is a team in a malaise.  There is no clear defensive strategy present as a team.

If somebody asked me how do BCFC defend I could not describe clearly what is being attempted.

Have a go Spudski ... How are BCFC setting out to defend?  

.. 

 

 

 

I can see exactly what we are trying to do...however...it doesn't always work, as it relies heavily on players being focussed and doing their job properly...which however hard they try, for 80% of a match they get right, then they lose focus and make mistakes. Which we've seen time and time again.

We play narrow (often without wingers, but sometimes with wide sitting wing backs). For the opposition...there are huge spaces to exploit out wide, often giving opportunities for more crosses or overlapping players – using that creative outlet to create more chances. This is done when we and are playing a defensive patient play, defending deep and narrow.

We try to play patient, possession football. In a narrow field of play. The idea to make the opponents, impatient, ill disciplined, make them tire out, whilst chasing the ball if we keep possession. This will impact their stamina... tire them out, which decreases their ability to concentrate further and in theory creates more mistakes. Exhausted opponents will further allow you to control the match tempo. That's how we are trying to play...

However...what often happens, is we have to go chasing games and our 'structure' and concentration goes out of the window...as confirmed from what Hegeler said after the Cardiff game. Words along the lines of...'he's never seen a team lose it's structure and discipline like we did after 70 mins'.

What we are often seeing is this...

By playing patient build-up football, it make's our attacking predictable. We may have over 50% of possession and dominate the match, but the other team can defend well by staying deep, packing the penalty box, reducing available space to exploit to a minimum, forcing us to shoot from long range or use other tools which may force to increase the risk of losing possession (Tomlin). We may pin the other team back which leaves huge spaces behind the high defensive line, which we did, then for opponents to counter in. Facing a physical team may make it difficult to get the required flow in order to retain possession. This means that possession football may not always be that effective. Which is what we are often seeing lately.

Playing possession football requires us to use a formation which makes us able to have players lined up in as many triangles as possible, and players that are capable of doing it. We fail miserably in this one department. Our lack of movement off the ball is dire...mainly from Bryan and Little. They move in straight lines, instead of creating angles for a pass. This means the ball comes back and played across the back four again.

Duric, Brownhill and Odowda, as well as Reid are very good at making an angle, creating space or coming for the ball...as is Hegeler and Magners.

In recent games we've tried to be different, basically to just stop the rot...especially against Reading.

We pretty much parked the bus against Reading and played in a Counter attacking style.

We've played numerous way's this season...expansive, possession, 'anti football' style.

When we drop deep and try to soak up pressure...it's mentally tiring. And this is when our individual mistakes occur.

Because of the way we play...possession, narrow and often deep when defending...it causes massive strain on the Fullbacks mentally and physically. This is why Little and Bryan are having a torrid time and chances for goals coming from those areas, as this is where opponents are exploiting us.

This happens time and time again...either a cross comes in from the full back position, or a ball will be put across midfield for a player to find space and shoot, because our defence has sat too deep and narrow.

Prime examples...the last two goals against Cardiff.

We are in a catch 22 phase...if we went back to playing expansive football, we could either win like before or get completely hammered.

It seems LJ is trying to play the percentages...hence why we are losing by the solitary goal. We still create goals...but it's the mistakes by individuals that are killing us.

If we had two or three players that were better experienced and quality, especially in the fullback positions, then those 'percentages' would be closed and we imo, would go back to more winning ways.

 

[spudski]

5 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

If City are playing that deep the full backs should be tucking in and leaving the midfield to press the ball. The opposition then have two lines of four to play through. And City have four (at least)  players to defend the cross into the box.

The reality has been no pressure is being put onto the ball. Second balls go straight to the opposition as City sit in their box. Pressure onto more pressure is invited onto the defence.

City are wallowing the opposition to have it in some half arsed attempt at screening and attempting to nick the ball back.

What is evident is City are not attempting to press with energy above the half way line and push up. The opposite was true v Reading. Let them have it, get goalside, screen, nick ...

There is a word there energy. Some players trundle back, it's languid, there is no leadership stating we stay here, press here, hold the line higher ... And that sort of thing should be clearly present without the ball, Aden Flint is marshalling, the rest  ... They do not know thoroughly what they are doing = Lee Johnson's tactics.

 

 

 

 

 

You know what they are meant to be doing...so do I...as do many other fans. The players know exactly what they are meant to be doing...but like you say, the ENERGY isn't their, neither is the concentration...or experience and quality. They get in the right positions...but then forget to do anything, or make the wrong decision...example...stick your foot in instead of hussle re Little for the penalty. Make a back heel on the edge of the 18 yard box re Brownhill. Or completely switch off or make the wrong decisions re Bryan defensively every game.

They know exactly what they are being asked to do by LJ...as you could see so easily with the Reading game. They just don't all carry it out well enough. And it's those individuals that are losing games for us.

Tammy and Duric get in the right positions...Magners, Wright, Flint, Pack, O'dowda, Brownhill all get in the right positions. So you can't say they don't understand the tactics.

It's certain INDIVIDUALS that aren't doing their jobs...not all the players.

 

[forbespm]

12 hours ago, havanatopia said:

It remains vivid in my memory from the Reading game and came home to roost once more when I saw those shocking goals against Cardiff; May I suggest to all those who have watched this turmoil unfold since early Nov (?) that there is something wrong in the head of our back line that smacks of useless or 'frankly I don't give a damn' or, that, with 'I want the little wretch fired so am gonna give their striker plenty of room'.

What I have seen in those two games, when the opposition have been bearing down on goal is nothing short of diabolical. I would go as far as to say i have not seen defending that bad. Actually I cannot remember worse defending since Forbes Phillipson Masters and at least he tried. 

Our back line are supposed to be decent professionals on thousands of pounds a week. I don't accept that they are not good enough. Look at the goals we are leaking across all of the matches and tell me if you see a pattern. The single goal smacks of managing losses.

I need to ask the question even if it sounds stupid; what on earth is going on?

To my mind they are not playing for the manager. That means its curtains for Lee.

Here is my prediction for the next 2 matches:-

Scrape through on penalties against Fleetwood against all the odds and then draw at Forest and that should be the end of that.

 

p.s. sorry mods.. this should be in general football chat. Please move.

Nothing wrong with Forbes phillipson masters!

[Cowshed]

Thank you for the replies. It was a simple question Spudski. How do Bristol City defend? Your answer was in numerous ways.

The answer should be; As a well organised team. 

In answer to your later " you know what they are meant to be doing" ... At times I cannot see it because it changes so frequently, and the consequences of constant changes are disorganisation. Here I disagree with your consistent criticism of Joe Bryan. If the team was not subjected to the numerous changes in direction players would be more at ease in roles. The tinkering tactics are ruining players who do have talent.

Bristol City under Lee Johnson are failing to prepare correctly.  The constant changing in tactics and personnel = preparing to fail. Teams like Brighton and Reading have clear methodologies City look like they are a team of " ok boys this week I think!"

And if it is a case of players simply not doing what they are told ... Mr Johnson was involved in buying them. He has been backed financially. His skills in Managing the  players, motivating the players to follow instruction are wanting.

Defending is not difficult. Eight/nine/ten men behind ball, one presses ball let's call him the first defender, if it's cleared, second jobs - trigger, in that zone let them have it, screen ... You know what I am getting at. That gets ever harder when the game is turned into alchemy (numerous ways of playing and starting XI' s).

People state Lee Johnson over complicates football ... I agree.

 

 

 

 

 

[Major Isewater]

30 minutes ago, forbespm said:

Nothing wrong with Forbes phillipson masters!

Says the guy who sold the replica shirt lettering.

[JHAGa]

Both times we took the lead vs Cardiff, everyone sat back and gave them all the time in the world to look to carve out an opportunity against our unsturdy defence. So frustrating.

[Olé]

54 minutes ago, spudski said:

I can see exactly what we are trying to do...however...it doesn't always work

[SNIP]

 

Bit of an epic there Spud, but the first time I honestly believe you've written something that you believe in but that I can also agree with entirely. Exactly as I see games develop all season, right down to who you think provides outlets and the dearth of movement and awareness from the rest of them. Your description of our attacking is probably the most realistic I've seen you post, so I would challenge how (if you believe it) it equates to enough positive signs for you to have been as encouraged about the potential, as you've mentioned in the past.

Also, an obvious retort is that these players played more comfortable looking defending and attacking possession in previous seasons. So am I right in saying that a point you've made to me in the past, but which I didn't really take in, is you genuinely feel this negative pattern of play is in trying to establish the desired pattern of play, and as such, a necessary suffering (results and performances) on painful transition to a different brand of football? You hinted at it before (golf swing) but the idea of such painful, high-risk revolution wasn't clear to many, I'd suggest.

One other point - you talk about "patient, possession football in a narrow field of play": I couldn't agree more that this is what we're seeing. But you go on to make the point it is designed to "work" the opposition by passing around them and tire them out. Surely by being so narrow the potential to tire them out (or have easy outlets to pass between) is substantially reduced? I don't see us tiring anyone, we make the pitch so narrow we run out of passing options quickly and end up giving it away or retreating and then booting it back upfield to nobody. 

Yes movement being poor is a part of this (sometimes so poor for previously competent professional footballers that I can't believe the instructions/coaching is helping), but not exploiting width is, for me, also seriously at odds with this pattern of play (possession and working opponents) that you describe. For all his defensive meltdown at the end, Mark Little's attacking movement on Saturday did far more to tire opponents and provide outlets for teammates and space for possession, than any recent attempt to pass about around the centre of the pitch.

So I agree with your description of the football we're playing, and I buy your description of the football we want to play, but I have a hard time seeing that one will produce the other. For periods of the first game against Fleetwood, a team that is surely inferior on most attributes, they had ability to control the tempo and create clearer chances, I think in no small part to using width and pace, creating outlets and space to exploit for their forwards. Same against Preston at home. This "football" seems to work us far more than ours works our opponents!

[Dr Balls]

6 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Do you think George Graham changed his team by the week?

Do you think he expected Lee Dixon to play LB, LM, LWB, CM and left out in a timescale of a month in the manner Joe Bryan has?

What defensive lines are City playing? High? Low? It changes by the week by the half!

Where is the midfield in this? What line is there to deal with second balls? Two? One? They are often caught between tucking in and pressing/screening. It is uncoordinated.  Pressing is a basic, a basic honed on the training pitch. 

This is inept management of players who have been through lives of coaching drills, talking about triggers. depth, denying space ... Put into a world of soup with a fork by Lee Johnson.

It's comedy. Youth teams ... I am serious can have a better shape without the ball than BCFC.

These are Lee Johnson's players, He was part of bringing them in. He knows all about their DNA for the project!! He is not motivating, and above all not Managing his players adeptly.

We actually pressed really well for 70 mins against Reading then Bryan & Brownhill got knackered so LJ replaced them with..... Wilbraham!

LJ also talked about getting a Cisse equivalent. I thought that was Hegeler but no, he gets put in as a centre back in a 3-5-2.

There are major defensive issues to sort out. I actually like Goulbourne at left back but I know that view isn't necessarily held by LJ. Selling Ayling is looking like more & more of a significant mistake in hindsight. Not perfect but not as injury prone as Matthews & a way better player than Little at right back. Flint's confidence looks shot but at least Wright looks good although I am not sure yet if he is much better than Derrick Williams.

And we need a new goalkeeper. Frankie comes across as a nice bloke, a good shot stopper but he doesn't command his area. I still think RO'D has been undermined this season because he was a very large part of our upturn last season, but he has been punished for mistakes this season, when others have been forgiven & given more chances.

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Olé said:

Bit of an epic there Spud, but the first time I honestly believe you've written something that you believe in but that I can also agree with entirely. Exactly as I see games develop all season, right down to who you think provides outlets and the dearth of movement and awareness from the rest of them. Your description of our attacking is probably the most realistic I've seen you post, so I would challenge how (if you believe it) it equates to enough positive signs for you to have been as encouraged about the potential, as you've mentioned in the past.

Also, an obvious retort is that these players played more comfortable looking defending and attacking possession in previous seasons. So am I right in saying that a point you've made to me in the past, but which I didn't really take in, is you genuinely feel this negative pattern of play is in trying to establish the desired pattern of play, and as such, a necessary suffering (results and performances) on painful transition to a different brand of football? You hinted at it before (golf swing) but the idea of such painful, high-risk revolution wasn't clear to many, I'd suggest.

One other point - you talk about "patient, possession football in a narrow field of play": I couldn't agree more that this is what we're seeing. But you go on to make the point it is designed to "work" the opposition by passing around them and tire them out. Surely by being so narrow the potential to tire them out (or have easy outlets to pass between) is substantially reduced? I don't see us tiring anyone, we make the pitch so narrow we run out of passing options quickly and end up giving it away or retreating and then booting it back upfield to nobody. 

Yes movement being poor is a part of this (sometimes so poor for previously competent professional footballers that I can't believe the instructions/coaching is helping), but not exploiting width is, for me, also seriously at odds with this pattern of play (possession and working opponents) that you describe. For all his defensive meltdown at the end, Mark Little's attacking movement on Saturday did far more to tire opponents and provide outlets for teammates and space for possession, than any recent attempt to pass about around the centre of the pitch.

So I agree with your description of the football we're playing, and I buy your description of the football we want to play, but I have a hard time seeing that one will produce the other. For periods of the first game against Fleetwood, a team that is surely inferior on most attributes, they had ability to control the tempo and create clearer chances, I think in no small part to using width and pace, creating outlets and space to exploit for their forwards. Same against Preston at home. This "football" seems to work us far more than ours works our opponents!

In answer to your first two paragraphs mate... Even when we were wining games at the start of the season, we could all see frailties, cracks appearing.

I believe LJ also saw that, and felt the need we needed to change. It's like we've had to take a step back to take two steps forward again. I believe we are in for want of a better word 'transition' again.

We were winning playing expansive football, but way too open. It doesn't make sense to many to change, when you're winning, but like I said, cracks were appearing.

I believe LJ has tried to make us more structured and to keep in shape better.

In doing so, it's stifled our play a little as we haven't been so expansive. We've still created chances and scored. We have become much more structured and disciplined. Players are getting into position.

However...like I've said in numerous posts recently...even though we have got into positions defensively, certain individuals have made mistakes and errors and that has cost us.

Offensively...we are trying to also keep shape and not go gung ho...however in doing so, when playing possession football, you have to create angles and move off the ball.

This has improved with Duric up front and Hegeler in the team. Unfortunately certain other players are not doing this. Hence the ball coming sideways across the back again.

Watch Little and Bryan....they never leave the touchline. They are so easy to mark out of the game. If the ball comes inside at an angle to Brownhill or Odowda...then they have to move again...not stand still on the touchline or move in a straight line to the next defender. They have to find space for the next pass, for the move to continue. They don't...so what you see happen, is the ball played back again to the CB's.

This is why our football is so lethargic and painful to watch sometimes...it's the lack of movement. Look what happened when Bryan did actually do the right things. He scored a goal, as he came inside. He also provided a cross for the second when he actually came inside and took on his man to the bye line. When he does it properly, it works...but it's very rare.

I believe if we continue playing in the way LJ wants us too...then we could become a competitive and solid outfit. But we have to find new players that can do the job properly on a constant basis.

I believe LJ has alluded to this recently, in wanting to bring those types of players in during the January window.

I get the impression that he was hoping some of our lesser players were going to step up to the mark, and that we wait until the summer. His hand has been pushed it seems.

Until we get those players or others like GoN, Matthews and Smith get up to speed and fitness, then I think we will continue to struggle with the likes of Little, Bryan and FF playing in key positions.

As I pointed out...narrow, possession football has it's weaknesses. And the prime weakness is in the Fullback positions.

[deadredfred]

4 hours ago, RedM said:

Add into that Brownhill,who was good going forward at least, seemingly marking the Ref and the rest us history. Shocking.

Im glad someone else noticed and brought this up. 

I wasn't at the match so avoided 'highlights' as long as I could before curiosity beat me. 

I must have re-watched their third goal 10 times and for the life of me I cannot fathom what Brownhill was attempting. He actively got out the way of the Cardiff player to open up the space to shoot via a cuddle with the ref. He'd have been more effective had he just layed down on the turf in front of him.