SL's awful record of choosing managers

[Alessandro]

2 minutes ago, Midlands Robin said:

All our spells in the second division have pretty much seen us go backwards from the moment we enter the division.

Jordan's promotion team of 89-90 were lead by Lumsden, Smith, Osman and Jordan (again) to poorer and poorer performances.

John Ward's promotion side of 97-98 seemed on the cusp of turning things around when Ward walked out and Lenartson took over.

GJ's promotion side almost made the Prem before sliding backwards until rge SoD debacle.

Virtually all of the managers listed during this period started by removing the threar of relegation in their first season and leaving the club in danger of relegation a season or less later.

If you look at our successful managers from 82 onwards, they have all achieved promotion within their first two years as manager. Cooper, Jordan, Ward, Johnson and Cotts. Only Cooper and Johnson were still in charge one season after promotion.

The big question is why have we managed to find 5 successful managers below the top two divisions (only Jordan in his second spell, Pulis, Wilson, Tinnion and SoD failed to get us promoted) yet we are awful at finding managers to make us a force in the top two divisions. Arguably out of all of the appointments since 82 its only GJ who we can describe as being anywhere near successful.

So, half of the managers we've signed since 82 have achieved a promotion in Divs 3/4 and only out of and only 1 out 11 (not including LJ) managers who have managed us in Div 2 have come anywhere near close.

Very strange.

Simple answer - we are a big enough club to compete financially well at div 3/4 level but not to compete at div 1/2 level.

The infrastructure and finance have not been in place, and this is what SL is now trying to do. But it can't be achieved over night.

[Natchfever]

18 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

We have a billionaire owner maybe, but hasn't ploughed billions into the club.

As I said in another thread, we may be spending more money than ever before, but that's just to keep up. We are still only middle of the road in terms of championship team spending - last summer £215m was spent by championship clubs, we contributed only 7/8m or so to that. Wolves spent that on one player.

So as I say, who is really doing better than us on a smaller budget? Not just a few points higher than us in the league better...

That's my whole point - not saying he has to, but I think that may be the reason we haven;t done too well with our managerial appoitments, and I am unsure if the FFP regs extend to off field appontments so perhaps no reason for it other than going for a cheaper option.

[Alessandro]

1 minute ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I have asked a few times (without reply) for somebody to explain to the 'majority', what have you seen that they haven't that gives you confidence that LJ can actually turn this around?.

To be honest I cannot give you a definitive answer to that. Other than LJ showed last season and early this that he is capable of winning games.

Momentum is one of the most important factors in football and it's one of the factors against us right now, and with time given for our new boys to settle in and maybe after one win, that momentum could swing the other and see us move back up the table.

That coupled with the fact I do not see a viable alternative manager and don't see the upheaval of new management as helpful right now, means I am in the camp that thinks LJ should get a few more games. Un-sackable, though? Not a bit. 

 

 

 

[Alessandro]

1 minute ago, Loon plage said:

That's my whole point - not saying he has to, but I think that may be the reason we haven;t done too well with our managerial appoitments, and I am unsure if the FFP regs extend to off field appontments so perhaps no reason for it other than going for a cheaper option.

Not sure all of the appointments he has made have been 'the cheaper option'. 

But depending on their success, a young manager will always be labelled 'up and coming' or 'the cheap option'.

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

What, like last season?

I think our current situation is more pertinent,

[Spoons]

The one that really gets me angry is "coppell' . I thought it was the perfect appointment at the right time. It promised so much , it delivered nothing but disappointment .

[Inactive user]

1 hour ago, Griffin said:

Who changes manager when you're doing well?

Southampton. Watford. Man City.

[Unan]

Just now, Rednwhiterob said:

Southampton. Watford. Man City.

Two already mentioned + Man City is Man City.

[Inactive user]

4 minutes ago, Spoons said:

The one that really gets me angry is "coppell' . I thought it was the perfect appointment at the right time. It promised so much , it delivered nothing but disappointment .

Totally agree. This rang some major alarm bells with me about why it all happened.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

28 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

To be honest I cannot give you a definitive answer to that. Other than LJ showed last season and early this that he is capable of winning games.

Momentum is one of the most important factors in football and it's one of the factors against us right now, and with time given for our new boys to settle in and maybe after one win, that momentum could swing the other and see us move back up the table.

That coupled with the fact I do not see a viable alternative manager and don't see the upheaval of new management as helpful right now, means I am in the camp that thinks LJ should get a few more games. Un-sackable, though? Not a bit. 

 

 

 

As I said in my original reply the only recent manager that the highlighted portion does not apply to is SOD.

I have to say that almost 4 months is more than long enough to stop the one recurring problem and that is seeing out games that we are either winning or drawing going into the final quarter of games, when was the last time we managed that?, when was the last time we took the ball into the opponents corner and ran the clock down?, but we can all point to certain players either showboating or misplacing simple passes whilst bizarrely trying to play out of defence during the last quarters of games and bizarrely 2 other shitty teams showed us exactly how to see out games with a narrow lead, now you and I both assume that players are not being told to do this by LJ but 4 months  on and it's still occurring why?.

For what it's worth perhaps SL should test LJ's resolve and do a Scott Davison and bring in somebody like Joe Jordan or somebody of that ilk to mentor LJ for the rest of the season, whether LJ wants that or not, because something is fundamentally flawed here.

 

 

[Kid in the Riot]

Well SL's choices don't exactly look good on paper:

Pulis - correct me if I'm wrong but SL was supportive of appointing Pulis, this was prior to him being chairman/owner)

Wilson - meh

Tinnion - rookie who unsurprisingly failed

G Johnson - very good appt

Coppell - disaster, convinced a man who was not going to be convinced

Millen - rookie, a no. 2 all day long

McInnes - rookie to English football and given no support

SOD - disaster on-field

Cotterill - Keith Dawe's man.

L Johnson - Was he really the BEST candidate for the job? Or friend or SL

 

Whichever way you look at it that does not make good reading. He can only take credit for GJ there who's had any real success in 17 years. Wilson did ok but I'm not even sure SL appointed him as he wasn't chairman at the time?

[rockinredrobin]

The main problem is that SL had his fingers badly burned by Steve Coppell

To be fair to SL he went and did the right thing in getting an experienced manager but then I think failed to back him properly after spending so much money on David James when Coppell felt priorities were elsewhere

Bottom line is that it went tits up I think the conclusion to be drawn since is that SL wants a manager that wont make demands / wont be controversial / wont come into the Club telling him and the Board how things should be done

Evidence is that since Coppell the managerial appointments have been 3 guys who were grateful to get the chance to manager City in the Championship ( Millen / McIness / Lee Johnson ) and 2 guys that had Championship experience but one of them had shot his bolt and was grateful to get back into the game ( ODismal) and Steve Cotterill

From all 5 appointments since Coppell - from a variety of perspectives - Steve Cotterill was head and shoulders the best appointment - he had the experience - felt he had been badly treated by other clubs and felt that he belonged in the Championship or higher and had an absolute burning ambition to take the Club upwards

How the relationship between SL and Cotterill broke down is a matter of some conjecture but the underlying cause appeared to be Cotterill telling the Board the quality of player the club would need to progress / SL refusing to fund the fees and /or wages for that quality and then Cotterill being provided with a procession of loans that he didn't rate and so  refused to put on the pitch ( think Simon Cox / Liam Moore / Callum Robinson ) ...of course 4 wins in 26 sealed his fate but I thought it was a shame and an opportunity missed and now Cotterill must have a wry smile as he see's the Club go for a cheap manager , low cost players .....and guess what the team is struggling again !

Problem is I have no faith in SL to appoint a manager in the mould of Warnock / Pearson etc because he does not want somebody coming into the Club making demands that he doesn't want to fund

I no do think that perhaps the Club will never make the progress we would all like to see to the Premier League if Steve L continues making the same sort of managerial decisions as he has since Coppell 

[Monkeh]

I'm uneasy with this,

what makes a successful pick? Considering there are only 3 promotion places in this league, does that mean 21 managers are a failure a season?,

how do you define city having a successful season, is that getting promoted to the top flight a league we've spent the majority of our history out side? Or does it mean do better then what history suggests which we are at the moment 

 

[Natchfever]

1 minute ago, Monkeh said:

I'm uneasy with this,

what makes a successful pick? Considering there are only 3 promotion places in this league, does that mean 21 managers are a failure a season?,

how do you define city having a successful season, is that getting promoted to the top flight a league we've spent the majority of our history out side? Or does it mean do better then what history suggests which we are at the moment 

 

I think success to most would be progress from last season so anywhere between 7th and maybe 12th and I think nearly everyone would be happy, whilst perhaps fans at Derby Brighton Villa Newcastle would not.

If we manage that then success next season would be challenging for top six, and so on.

[Monkeh]

4 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

I think success to most would be progress from last season so anywhere between 7th and maybe 12th and I think nearly everyone would be happy, whilst perhaps fans at Derby Brighton Villa Newcastle would not.

If we manage that then success next season would be challenging for top six, and so on.

I agree with that, and I personally think that's what lansdown wants, he isn't going to come out in public and say what most of us are thinking at the moment, Johnson isn't far from the sack I'm certain of that, but we are progressing, 

i personally hope Johnson proves us wrong, I can't see it but it doesn't stop me hoping 

[Inactive user]

Not all on that list are 'bad managers'. Why doesn't it work out for them here?

[Olé]

I don't think it's statistically relevant that teams that get to the Premiership average less managers - as @Griffin says, they're more likely to keep them, I would expect it to be lower. I'm not sure measuring how many times SL has had to hire, is really an effective comparison of his success.

I think (but am not volunteering!) the most relevant analysis would be the pedigree/experience *at the time of appointment* of all the managers to have got to the Premiership in the past, measured as a strike rate. You could then compare that to the type of person SL/City choose to hire.

As an example - if LJ is modelled on Eddie Howe, how often do young English managers with no prior experience, achieve promotion to the Premiership? It's a strike rate of basically him and Sean Dyche? Meanwhile, what is the strike for prior Premiership managers, or foreign managers?

[spudski]

What I think most people are overlooking here, and said with good intent, it wasn't the managers that were the problem perse, but the backroom staff and set up.

Our Academy was a complete farce, we had no decent scouts, poor coach's, jobs for the boys, poor training facilities, what analyst's and physio's that were decent.

Who did our negotiation's for contracts and deals? Who dealt with the Agents, who knew about football contracts and not business contracts?

You almost need a law degree in understanding contracts...most of these managers, were ex players who haven't done that. You do your badges...have a guess how long the FA spend on dealing with contracts, when doing your badges...it's a joke. Not even a week.

We threw money at managers who had no back up and no understanding.

Is it any wonder we failed?

[Esmond Million's Bung]

18 minutes ago, spudski said:

What I think most people are overlooking here, and said with good intent, it wasn't the managers that were the problem perse, but the backroom staff and set up.

Our Academy was a complete farce, we had no decent scouts, poor coach's, jobs for the boys, poor training facilities, what analyst's and physio's that were decent.

Who did our negotiation's for contracts and deals? Who dealt with the Agents, who knew about football contracts and not business contracts?

You almost need a law degree in understanding contracts...most of these managers, were ex players who haven't done that. You do your badges...have a guess how long the FA spend on dealing with contracts, when doing your badges...it's a joke. Not even a week.

We threw money at managers who had no back up and no understanding.

Is it any wonder we failed?

Why are we failing now having got everything you listed in order including the money?.

 

[Jack Dawe]

9 minutes ago, spudski said:

What I think most people are overlooking here, and said with good intent, it wasn't the managers that were the problem perse, but the backroom staff and set up.

Our Academy was a complete farce, we had no decent scouts, poor coach's, jobs for the boys, poor training facilities, what analyst's and physio's that were decent.

Who did our negotiation's for contracts and deals? Who dealt with the Agents, who knew about football contracts and not business contracts?

You almost need a law degree in understanding contracts...most of these managers, were ex players who haven't done that. You do your badges...have a guess how long the FA spend on dealing with contracts, when doing your badges...it's a joke. Not even a week.

We threw money at managers who had no back up and no understanding.

Is it any wonder we failed?

This is why LJ looks - from the outside, looking in - culpable, spud.

In our last Championship visit (2007 - 2013) and pretty much every time at this level of football, we were asking coaches/managers to succeed, or at least not **** up, in spite of everything (the old stadium, the lack of revenue from exec boxes etc, the poor scouting, the lack of a proper CEO, etc etc).

Whereas now, we have a lot of that in place, we are in good shape, we have caught up with our contemporaries in many things, we have money to spend, we have a generous owner writing off debt, so now we are asking the head coach to take advantage of this almost unprecedented position for a BCFC coach/manager at this level. We don't have what Newcastle, Villa and some others have, but neither are we limited like Rotherham, Burton, Preston and some others are.

Before, we were hoping for miracles; now, we are asking for competence.

 

But we are on a record run of consecutive league defeats? 

 

Now, people will say: parachute payments, toughest most unequal Championship ever, Rafa and Di Matteo, and so on. But that is the job of the head coach - to manage. We didn't employ him to not manage.

We need someone who can manage a difficult, but not impossible, job.

[Natchfever]

19 minutes ago, spudski said:

What I think most people are overlooking here, and said with good intent, it wasn't the managers that were the problem perse, but the backroom staff and set up.

Our Academy was a complete farce, we had no decent scouts, poor coach's, jobs for the boys, poor training facilities, what analyst's and physio's that were decent.

Who did our negotiation's for contracts and deals? Who dealt with the Agents, who knew about football contracts and not business contracts?

You almost need a law degree in understanding contracts...most of these managers, were ex players who haven't done that. You do your badges...have a guess how long the FA spend on dealing with contracts, when doing your badges...it's a joke. Not even a week.

We threw money at managers who had no back up and no understanding.

Is it any wonder we failed?

I understand what you;re saying and have first hand experience of what a crock the Academy was, and we all have a good idea of how poor the scouting set up was also. I would imagine though that most managers at levels 2 and 3 had similar jobs to the ones that didn't shine here but a good number of them did better?

I would assume that Sexstone handled the contracts, like he oversaw the failure to offer one to Liam Rosenior which cost us dear.

[Ivorguy]

2 hours ago, Alessandro said:

To be honest I cannot give you a definitive answer to that. Other than LJ showed last season and early this that he is capable of winning games.

Momentum is one of the most important factors in football and it's one of the factors against us right now, and with time given for our new boys to settle in and maybe after one win, that momentum could swing the other and see us move back up the table.

That coupled with the fact I do not see a viable alternative manager and don't see the upheaval of new management as helpful right now, means I am in the camp that thinks LJ should get a few more games. Un-sackable, though? Not a bit. 

 

 

 

For me the question remains : What is the cause of our collapse this season? Answer that and we have a chance of turning it round

Trust SL, MA, and Board have sought out the answer.

If however it is the manager or his coaches or player revolt there is no evidence that this has been addressed by the Powers that be

[Im_over_ere]

Well I don’t think it’s all about picking the right/wrong manager. Sometimes that a big chunk of luck involved. If I think about many managers names that are commonly thrown around whenever a vacation is open or an impending sacking, it’s always who is the current manager who is on a hot streak. So for instance, Gary Rowett’s name comes up because of what he done with Birmingham, previously it could be argued what LJ had done with Oldham and Barnsley – but I believe that sometimes they just catch lightening in a bottle.

Skeletor did it with Blackpool – but he has been garbage in many other management jobs. Same for Nigel Pearson at Leicester, same for Moyes and to an extent McLaren . They seem to find one job where it all clicks and they are labelled as a good candidate until it all goes wrong. By this token, had someone poached LJ off us at the start of the season we would be saying that we lost a good manager – but not now. Look at Raneiri – last year looked like a great manager; loses some of his best players and now not looking so good. Still the same person, same coach – different players.

If we really want a good manager, think of someone who has achieved success at more than one club, even maybe more than two clubs. Excluding Pep and Mourinho (out of our league), others I can think of are Chris Houghton, Steve Bruce, Colin, Simon Grayson. I’m sure there are others, but the important factor is – are these managers available when we need them or would they quit their current jobs? SL can only pick from the candiates applying.

At least on the bright side, we have not employed Dean Saunders (yet) who seems to have been garbage at every league club he’s managed!

[spudski]

17 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Why are we failing now having got everything you listed in order including the money?.

 

We are 3 wins off being mid table with Villa...3 wins difference. Yes we are on a bad run, and failing to get points this part of the season, but lets see where we are with 5 games to shall we, or something along those lines. If we end up mid to lower in the table, then most would see that as progress and not failure.

We seem to live in an age where everyone wants progress or 'success' now, right this moment. I usually put that down to the millennium babies, but it's now been taken on by those old enough to know better ;-)

@Jack Dawe

We need a manager who can turn around the rough, as well as run with the smooth. Everything takes time...I'd say it's only been two seasons where we have remotely been run like a Professional outfit. Managers aren't miracle workers. You can't just cherry pick them off a tree, and say 'they have experience', so it's going to work. In someways, I'd love an experienced manager to come here and fail miserably under the same set up, just to prove 'experience doesn't bring you success....the right fit at the right time does.

We've had our worst run...let's see what happens in the next month or two. Give the guy a chance. All this sacking is bullshit mate. If he's still failing as the season progresses, he'll have to go...simple as that.

Lets see what the two new players coming in this week hopefully can do. ;-)

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

We are 3 wins off being mid table with Villa...3 wins difference. Yes we are on a bad run, and failing to get points this part of the season, but lets see where we are with 5 games to shall we, or something along those lines. If we end up mid to lower in the table, then most would see that as progress and not failure.

We seem to live in an age where everyone wants progress or 'success' now, right this moment. I usually put that down to the millennium babies, but it's now been taken on by those old enough to know better ;-)

@Jack Dawe

We need a manager who can turn around the rough, as well as run with the smooth. Everything takes time...I'd say it's only been two seasons where we have remotely been run like a Professional outfit. Managers aren't miracle workers. You can't just cherry pick them off a tree, and say 'they have experience', so it's going to work. In someways, I'd love an experienced manager to come here and fail miserably under the same set up, just to prove 'experience doesn't bring you success....the right fit at the right time does.

We've had our worst run...let's see what happens in the next month or two. Give the guy a chance. All this sacking is bullshit mate. If he's still failing as the season progresses, he'll have to go...simple as that.

Lets see what the two new players coming in this week hopefully can do. ;-)

The problem with the highlighted portion is before this season started I don't recall anyone who actually believed that mid table wouldn't be progress and sustainable progress and I don't recall anybody actually suggesting that they expected more.

So I can only assume the highlighted portion is aimed at LJ himself because he was the only person that I can recall who even suggested that he expected us to be challenging.

 

[spudski]

8 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

The problem with the highlighted portion is before this season started I don't recall anyone who actually believed that mid table wouldn't be progress and sustainable progress and I don't recall anybody actually suggesting that they expected more.

So I can only assume the highlighted portion is aimed at LJ himself because he was the only person that I can recall who even suggested that he expected us to be challenging.

 

Like I implied mate...we are 3 wins off mid table. We still have time to finish above where we are now. That would be seen as progress. Even SL said in his recent interview, he'd prefer us to be challenging for the top 6. It's such fine margins mate.

[Jack Dawe]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

We are 3 wins off being mid table with Villa...3 wins difference. Yes we are on a bad run, and failing to get points this part of the season, but lets see where we are with 5 games to shall we, or something along those lines. If we end up mid to lower in the table, then most would see that as progress and not failure.

We seem to live in an age where everyone wants progress or 'success' now, right this moment. I usually put that down to the millennium babies, but it's now been taken on by those old enough to know better ;-)

@Jack Dawe

We need a manager who can turn around the rough, as well as run with the smooth. Everything takes time...I'd say it's only been two seasons where we have remotely been run like a Professional outfit. Managers aren't miracle workers. You can't just cherry pick them off a tree, and say 'they have experience', so it's going to work. In someways, I'd love an experienced manager to come here and fail miserably under the same set up, just to prove 'experience doesn't bring you success....the right fit at the right time does.

We've had our worst run...let's see what happens in the next month or two. Give the guy a chance. All this sacking is bullshit mate. If he's still failing as the season progresses, he'll have to go...simple as that.

Lets see what the two new players coming in this week hopefully can do. ;-)

Thing is spud, we finished 18th last season. We had to progress. Fail to progress on 18th, and what are you going to get?

In this league, you need to be improving, at least a bit, because if you don't, when only 5 teams were worse than you the previous season, what's going to happen?

And I keep saying it: Steve Lansdown expects us to improve! 

I don't think this is what SL had in mind last summer. He has done his bit, the team and LJ have not.

"Everything takes time....." we don't have "time" in this league. It's dog eat dog, sink or swim. "Managers aren't miracle workers," I think I addressed this in my previous post. We ask only for competence; we'll need "miracles" to get promoted from this league. I know it's a tough league, but we have enough going for us, it's either make progress, or make excuses. 

The sacking is hopeless, I agree; let's hope the new players can move us up the table, but February does not look promising. 

[steveybadger]

23 minutes ago, Im_over_ere said:

Well I don’t think it’s all about picking the right/wrong manager. Sometimes that a big chunk of luck involved. If I think about many managers names that are commonly thrown around whenever a vacation is open or an impending sacking, it’s always who is the current manager who is on a hot streak. So for instance, Gary Rowett’s name comes up because of what he done with Birmingham, previously it could be argued what LJ had done with Oldham and Barnsley – but I believe that sometimes they just catch lightening in a bottle.

 

Skeletor did it with Blackpool – but he has been garbage in many other management jobs. Same for Nigel Pearson at Leicester, same for Moyes and to an extent McLaren . They seem to find one job where it all clicks and they are labelled as a good candidate until it all goes wrong. By this token, had someone poached LJ off us at the start of the season we would be saying that we lost a good manager – but not now. Look at Raneiri – last year looked like a great manager; loses some of his best players and now not looking so good. Still the same person, same coach – different players.

 

If we really want a good manager, think of someone who has achieved success at more than one club, even maybe more than two clubs. Excluding Pep and Mourinho (out of our league), others I can think of are Chris Houghton, Steve Bruce, Colin, Simon Grayson. I’m sure there are others, but the important factor is – are these managers available when we need them or would they quit their current jobs? SL can only pick from the candiates applying.

 

At least on the bright side, we have not employed Dean Saunders (yet) who seems to have been garbage at every league club he’s managed!

 

Cotteril, GJ?!

[spudski]

6 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Thing is spud, we finished 18th last season. We had to progress. Fail to progress on 18th, and what are you going to get?

In this league, you need to be improving, at least a bit, because if you don't, when only 5 teams were worse than you the previous season, what's going to happen?

And I keep saying it: Steve Lansdown expects us to improve! 

I don't think this is what SL had in mind last summer. He has done his bit, the team and LJ have not.

"Everything takes time....." we don't have "time" in this league. It's dog eat dog, sink or swim. "Managers aren't miracle workers," I think I addressed this in my previous post. We ask only for competence; we'll need "miracles" to get promoted from this league. I know it's a tough league, but we have enough going for us, it's either make progress, or make excuses. 

The sacking is hopeless, I agree; let's hope the new players can move us up the table, but February does not look promising. 

This league is a nightmare mate...only 3 can go up. Look at the other teams in this league with far better pedigree and experience. Some have been in it for years. This is only our second season, with lots of new recruits throughout the Club. Unfortunately it could take years of yo yoing between top and bottom of this division.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

26 minutes ago, spudski said:

This league is a nightmare mate...only 3 can go up. Look at the other teams in this league with far better pedigree and experience. Some have been in it for years. This is only our second season, with lots of new recruits throughout the Club. Unfortunately it could take years of yo yoing between top and bottom of this division.

I am pretty sure that SL and LJ will beg to differ on that one, unless of course they have bullshitting about their aspirations set out in the summer.

Which is part of the overall problem IMO, SL and LJ saying what they said.