The argument against sacking

[Jack Dawe]

For a club like Rotherham or Burton - with poorer players than other clubs, and without the means to change that - sacking is unlikely to change much. Only an exceptional coach/manager will get more of a "tune" out of a limited group of players, in a league position more or less where they "should" be, or expected to be. Rotherham found that "exception" last season, but not this.

Does anyone think the squad of players we have is where they "should" be in the league table, or where they might reasonably be expected to be?

And if you do think this, who is responsible for assembling an inadequate squad of players, with a midtable budget?

 

For a club like Blackburn, where the problems are clearly at the very top of the club, sacking and changing coach/manager might bring short-term relief and some success, but not long-term. Again, unless they can attract an exceptional replacement. Difficult to do, with notorious owners and a struggling team.

Does anyone think that our owner is the problem this season (leaving aside his appointment of Head Coach a year ago)?

 

For a club like Bristol City in it's previous Championship visit, sacking/changing the coach/manager didn't change much, or enough, because we had a bottom third group of players, an old stadium, poor scouting set up, low-ish crowds, a non-football experienced COO, and an out dated and ill thought out recruitment policy, amongst other problems and hindrances. Changing the coach/manager then, was like moving the furniture on the Titanic: it was missing the point (or the gaping ****ing hole where the water was gushing in).

 

In all the above examples, I agree: changing the coach is not addressing the problem and unlikely to result in long-term change. 

 

For a club like Bristol City now, in 2017 though - with a midtable budget, the 10th best average gate in the division, a competent COO, a much improved, modernised scouting set up, an excellent fit-for-purpose stadium, third top scorer in the division, playing talent and experience (according to the HC), and funds to bring in more talent/experience, no debt concerns, various new "funding streams," - to have a team losing 11 in 13 and dropping to 21st and 2 points from the drop tells us something is wrong somewhere and sacking/changing the coach/manager has got a better chance of working than in the other examples noted above. Because everything else is in place, right?

 

The only argument I can see - in the abscence of any evidence that we are in this slump because of something other than a Head Coach not up to the task - against sacking/changing our head coach again, now, is because the chap that appointed the HC and the HC are friends and it is awkward, and it is rather embarrassing following the contract extension given to the HC in December. And it's not "nice,"  sacking someone, and SL is "nice," and lots of people on here and at the ground are "nice." And the HC is "nice." But football, at the top, is not "nice." Football is unforgiving. 

I cannot see what we have to lose - we are not a club like Rotherham or Burton or Blackburn or Bristol City (2008-2013). Are we? 

We can do the long-term thing with the next chap, can't we? If he can avoid breaking any club records (of the notmakingbristolproud variety) that is.

 

So, what are the arguments against removing LJ, bearing in mind the talent we have, the stadium, the generous owner, the good crowds, the etc, etc? I can start us off:

1. The chap that appointed the current Head Coach, will be appointing the next Head Coach.

2.

 

 

[CodeRed]

27 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

 

1. The chap that appointed the current Head Coach, will be appointing the next Head Coach.

2.

 

 

The chap that appointed the current Head Coach needs to stand back and let the chap he employed to run the "Football Operations" run the Football operation - and then that chap should pick a HC with the necessary qualifications to do the job.

In Theory.

 

In reality the chap that appointed the current head coach will appoint the next one and the chap that runs the Football operations is a sycophant who simply does what the chap that owns the club tells him to do.

  The chap that runs (and is responsible for) the football operation is overseeing a disaster performance but is standing by and not taking the necessary action because he's waiting for the chap to tell him when to sack the HC.

If MA had any real control he'd fire LJ for his performance , appoint a replacement, and simply advise SL what he's done.

 

At Tottenham Daniel Levy runs the club, he's the Chairman/Ceo not the owner - but he does all the hiring and firing and signs off all the deals................and does it quite well.  Joe Lewis is the owner and majority shareholder, he lives in a tax haven offshore (sound familiar?) and leaves Levy - a paid employee - to get on with it (not so familiar!!)

 

[oldstandrobin]

Good post Jack but the jury is back

[Top Robin]

All we flippin want is a manager who is capable of making us competitive in the Championship......its not much to ask for.

We don't even have to get promoted yet, just play games where we compete properly and with passion and win a few on the way.

That man must be out there for us.

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

17 minutes ago, Top Robin said:

All we flippin want is a manager who is capable of making us competitive in the Championship......its not much to ask for.

We don't even have to get promoted yet, just play games where we compete properly and with passion and win a few on the way.

That man must be out there for us.

Doubt it... 

[Jack Dawe]

4 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Doubt it... 

Do what we did last year (it kept us up). Trawl the middle of L1 and see what we find

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

5 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Do what we did last year (it kept us up). Trawl the middle of L1 and see what we find

Even if LJ gets binned off... Seriously, given the fact we've only appointed 'young, up and coming managers', good lower league managers, internal appointments with the exception of Coppell who walked out after 2 games and maybe Wilson in recent memory.

What makes you think that SL will go down a different path and furthermore what makes you think a more 'experienced' manager will even come here anyway? The club can't on looking for a short term fix, they need stability on what they aiming to achieve in the long term, not to keep restarting every 5 minutes

[Chappers]

16 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Even if LJ gets binned off... Seriously, given the fact we've only appointed 'young, up and coming managers', good lower league managers, internal appointments with the exception of Coppell who walked out after 2 games and maybe Wilson in recent memory.

What makes you think that SL will go down a different path and furthermore what makes you think a more 'experienced' manager will even come here anyway? The club can't on looking for a short term fix, they need stability on what they aiming to achieve in the long term, not to keep restarting every 5 minutes

And apart from O'Driscoll and Cotterill..... So that leaves Millen who did a good job as caretaker so a sensible choice and McInnes whose track record in Scotland made him worth a punt. And Johnson. 

[samo II]

7 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Even if LJ gets binned off... Seriously, given the fact we've only appointed 'young, up and coming managers', good lower league managers, internal appointments with the exception of Coppell who walked out after 2 games and maybe Wilson in recent memory.

What makes you think that SL will go down a different path and furthermore what makes you think a more 'experienced' manager will even come here anyway? The club can't on looking for a short term fix, they need stability on what they aiming to achieve in the long term, not to keep restarting every 5 minutes

In many ways I agree, except on the point of experience; this is a relative aspect, and has to be weighted against achievements too.

The name keeps coming up, but Rowett is a solid example; prior to being appointed at Birmingham, he had comparable experience to LJ (if you weigh a couple of attempted promotion campaigns from League Two the same as keeping teams in League One like LJ did), but then took what he had at Birmingham - an unbalanced and quality poor squad - and built them into a top half team, and when given some money (this past  summer) was able to match/improve on that.

He's a similar young head coach with comparative experience, but better achievements at this level.  

Not advocating he come in, but isn't the case there is no one able to build on what we have, and perhaps improve us immediately.

I don't want us to become a short term, sacking-per-year club.  But I don't want us to go to League One either, and if LJ can't spin our form on its head sharpish, then I'm sorry; but we need to do something.  SL said it himself.

I had hoped LJ would perhaps be our Chris Hughton; arriving midseason with the team struggling, just keep us up with shrewd signings, build on that in the summer, then make us a competitive the following season.  Hasn't happened, and in fact I believe we're playing worse football now after a year of LJ in charge.  

Maybe LJ can turn it around; I don't know.  But I simply do not believe we couldn't have been more competitive with the squad we now have or not set up or motivated differently.  LJ needs the team to get him something on Wednesday, because we're running out of time.

[Jack Dawe]

20 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Even if LJ gets binned off... Seriously, given the fact we've only appointed 'young, up and coming managers', good lower league managers, internal appointments with the exception of Coppell who walked out after 2 games and maybe Wilson in recent memory.

What makes you think that SL will go down a different path and furthermore what makes you think a more 'experienced' manager will even come here anyway? The club can't on looking for a short term fix, they need stability on what they aiming to achieve in the long term, not to keep restarting every 5 minutes

The not-sacking/ stability thing will work when it goes hand-in-hand with the appointing-the-right-coach thing. They go together. We could try appointing the best qualified applicant or bloke willing to listen and sign. Which we did not do last time.

No guarantees, of course, unlike appointing young coaches "who, like young players, will make mistakes" and of whom you think "it might not be too soon"

[chinapig]

38 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Do what we did last year (it kept us up). Trawl the middle of L1 and see what we find

No doubt you are being tongue in cheek but that is the sort we would attract with our strategy and set up, an up and coming coach.

But that will infuriate those who want a 'big name ', ignoring the fact that such managers - don't call them coaches, they won't like it - will want complete control and won't settle for being one part of a wider team.

Chances are sacking LJ will not deliver the outcome people want I fear.

[Chappers]

And of course we had Gary Kohnson, lower league manager, most successful since Ward, lower league manager, Jordan, no experience and Dicks, no experience when he joined. 

[chinapig]

13 minutes ago, Chappers said:

And of course we had Gary Kohnson, lower league manager, most successful since Ward, lower league manager, Jordan, no experience and Dicks, no experience when he joined. 

Johnson was in terms of league position achieved the most successful since Dicks wasn't he, though he seems to be despised around here. Likewise Dicks had to survive pretty vitriolic campaigns to get him sacked. I dread to think what it would have been like had web forums existed then.

However in those days there was less fantasing about recruiting the Moyes' of this world who can command millions managing a struggling Prem club. It was understood that we were a little club that had to have realistic expectations when it came to the managers we could attract.

[spudski]

2 hours ago, Jack Dawe said:

For a club like Rotherham or Burton - with poorer players than other clubs, and without the means to change that - sacking is unlikely to change much. Only an exceptional coach/manager will get more of a "tune" out of a limited group of players, in a league position more or less where they "should" be, or expected to be. Rotherham found that "exception" last season, but not this.

Does anyone think the squad of players we have is where they "should" be in the league table, or where they might reasonably be expected to be?

And if you do think this, who is responsible for assembling an inadequate squad of players, with a midtable budget?

 

For a club like Blackburn, where the problems are clearly at the very top of the club, sacking and changing coach/manager might bring short-term relief and some success, but not long-term. Again, unless they can attract an exceptional replacement. Difficult to do, with notorious owners and a struggling team.

Does anyone think that our owner is the problem this season (leaving aside his appointment of Head Coach a year ago)?

 

For a club like Bristol City in it's previous Championship visit, sacking/changing the coach/manager didn't change much, or enough, because we had a bottom third group of players, an old stadium, poor scouting set up, low-ish crowds, a non-football experienced COO, and an out dated and ill thought out recruitment policy, amongst other problems and hindrances. Changing the coach/manager then, was like moving the furniture on the Titanic: it was missing the point (or the gaping ****ing hole where the water was gushing in).

 

In all the above examples, I agree: changing the coach is not addressing the problem and unlikely to result in long-term change. 

 

For a club like Bristol City now, in 2017 though - with a midtable budget, the 10th best average gate in the division, a competent COO, a much improved, modernised scouting set up, an excellent fit-for-purpose stadium, third top scorer in the division, playing talent and experience (according to the HC), and funds to bring in more talent/experience, no debt concerns, various new "funding streams," - to have a team losing 11 in 13 and dropping to 21st and 2 points from the drop tells us something is wrong somewhere and sacking/changing the coach/manager has got a better chance of working than in the other examples noted above. Because everything else is in place, right?

 

The only argument I can see - in the abscence of any evidence that we are in this slump because of something other than a Head Coach not up to the task - against sacking/changing our head coach again, now, is because the chap that appointed the HC and the HC are friends and it is awkward, and it is rather embarrassing following the contract extension given to the HC in December. And it's not "nice,"  sacking someone, and SL is "nice," and lots of people on here and at the ground are "nice." And the HC is "nice." But football, at the top, is not "nice." Football is unforgiving. 

I cannot see what we have to lose - we are not a club like Rotherham or Burton or Blackburn or Bristol City (2008-2013). Are we? 

We can do the long-term thing with the next chap, can't we? If he can avoid breaking any club records (of the notmakingbristolproud variety) that is.

 

So, what are the arguments against removing LJ, bearing in mind the talent we have, the stadium, the generous owner, the good crowds, the etc, etc? I can start us off:

1. The chap that appointed the current Head Coach, will be appointing the next Head Coach.

2.

 

 

We still might end up Mid Table JD...we are only just over half way through the season. It's a marathon, not a sprint...we were in the leading pack at the start of the race, have gone back through the pack....we've still got another 10 miles to get over our 'stitch', and catch new breath, and move up through the places ;-)

[Chairman Mao]

3 minutes ago, spudski said:

We still might end up Mid Table JD...we are only just over half way through the season. It's a marathon, not a sprint...we were in the leading pack at the start of the race, have gone back through the pack....we've still got another 10 miles to get over our 'stitch', and catch new breath, and move up through the places ;-)

With LJ in charge? Do you watch the matches? We are a shambles, throwing goals away in the last minute for fun, Ipswich, Wolves, Preston, Cardiff, Reading, the list goes on, 1 league win in 3 months, no apparent idea in tactics - chopping and changing for fun, seems like he has fallen out with half the players. It's a disaster zone, epitomised by the fact LJ runs down the tunnel at the end of the last home game.

People have written off Wednesday, that's how bad it is, we were 6th in October and now he's relying on a win over a L1 bound Rotherham for a stay of execution saying the lads 'played well' in a toothless 2-0 defeat to a much changed Burnley side. 

[pillred]

Gary kohnson,god please don't tell me there are more of them!!

 

[spudski]

8 minutes ago, Chairman Mao said:

With LJ in charge? Do you watch the matches? We are a shambles, throwing goals away in the last minute for fun, Ipswich, Wolves, Preston, Cardiff, Reading, the list goes on, 1 league win in 3 months, no apparent idea in tactics - chopping and changing for fun, seems like he has fallen out with half the players. It's a disaster zone, epitomised by the fact LJ runs down the tunnel at the end of the last home game.

People have written off Wednesday, that's how bad it is, we were 6th in October and now he's relying on a win over a L1 bound Rotherham for a stay of execution saying the lads 'played well' in a toothless 2-0 defeat to a much changed Burnley side. 

Yes...Individual errors costing us goals. Yes...1 win in 3 months, Just because you or some fans don't understand the tactics, it doesn't mean there aren't any ;-), chopping and changing out of necessity, because of injuries and out of form players or unfit, had arguments about football...YES. 'People' haven't written off Wednesday, only folk who want it to be written off so that LJ gets sacked. I disagree that it was a toothless display against a Burnley side with a great home record. Of course I watch the match's...however, there are a lot on here who make negative comments, don't go regularly. They, are of course entitled to their opinion of course....whether taken seriously, is another thing.

 

[pillred]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

Yes...Individual errors costing us goals. Yes...1 win in 3 months, Just because you or some fans don't understand the tactics, it doesn't mean there aren't any ;-), chopping and changing out of necessity, because of injuries and out of form players or unfit, had arguments about football...YES. 'People' haven't written off Wednesday, only folk who want it to be written off so that LJ gets sacked. I disagree that it was a toothless display against a Burnley side with a great home record. Of course I watch the match's...however, there are a lot on here who make negative comments, don't go regularly. They, are of course entitled to their opinion of course....whether taken seriously, is another thing.

 

thank god for that, for a moment I thought we were going through our worst run in our history

[BobBobSuperBob]

9 minutes ago, spudski said:

Yes...Individual errors costing us goals. Yes...1 win in 3 months, Just because you or some fans don't understand the tactics, it doesn't mean there aren't any ;-), chopping and changing out of necessity, because of injuries and out of form players or unfit, had arguments about football...YES. 'People' haven't written off Wednesday, only folk who want it to be written off so that LJ gets sacked. I disagree that it was a toothless display against a Burnley side with a great home record. Of course I watch the match's...however, there are a lot on here who make negative comments, don't go regularly. They, are of course entitled to their opinion of course....whether taken seriously, is another thing.

 

Very dismissive Spud

Not good

Your take on current tactics and problems are yours

Some very astute posters on here , including tactically 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, oldstandrobin said:

Good post Jack but the jury is back

Fabio Capello has gone a bit white since managing England.

[Dynamite Red]

5 minutes ago, spudski said:

Yes...Individual errors costing us goals. Yes...1 win in 3 months, Just because you or some fans don't understand the tactics, it doesn't mean there aren't any ;-), chopping and changing out of necessity, because of injuries and out of form players or unfit, had arguments about football...YES. 'People' haven't written off Wednesday, only folk who want it to be written off so that LJ gets sacked. I disagree that it was a toothless display against a Burnley side with a great home record. Of course I watch the match's...however, there are a lot on here who make negative comments, don't go regularly. They, are of course entitled to their opinion of course....whether taken seriously, is another thing.

 

Your condecendense knows no bounds. Incredible 

[Chairman Mao]

12 minutes ago, spudski said:

Yes...Individual errors costing us goals. Yes...1 win in 3 months, Just because you or some fans don't understand the tactics, it doesn't mean there aren't any ;-), chopping and changing out of necessity, because of injuries and out of form players or unfit, had arguments about football...YES. 'People' haven't written off Wednesday, only folk who want it to be written off so that LJ gets sacked. I disagree that it was a toothless display against a Burnley side with a great home record. Of course I watch the match's...however, there are a lot on here who make negative comments, don't go regularly. They, are of course entitled to their opinion of course....whether taken seriously, is another thing.

 

It appears the players don't understand the tactics either and that they aren't working hence, and I hate to come back to it, 1 win in 3 months!

[EnclosureSurge]

3 hours ago, CodeRed said:

The chap that appointed the current Head Coach needs to stand back and let the chap he employed to run the "Football Operations" run the Football operation - and then that chap should pick a HC with the necessary qualifications to do the job.

In reality the chap that appointed the current head coach will appoint the next one and the chap that runs the Football operations is a sycophant who simply does what the chap that owns the club tells him to do.

 

 

Well put.

The root of our problem is Lansdown. That's the be all and end all. He's a godsend and a f******. At the same time. If he could step back, let the all of the football things be run by someone with solely proper football experience - not a mix of some experience running a FC and a lot of experience in business - we'd have a better chance. 

[spudski]

Just now, Chairman Mao said:

It appears the players don't understand either and that they aren't working hence, and I hate to come back to it, 1 win in 3 months!

And this where I can't take your comment seriously...because I can clearly see what the players are being asked to do. They keep shape well...however it appears tactics mean the likes of Golbourne dilly dallying...and Reid making a crap pass into a player. People read that as 'not understanding tactics' or 'don't understand what is being asked of them'....it's not...it individual errors, often basic footballing, not tactics.

8 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Very dismissive Spud

Not good

Your take on current tactics and problems are yours

Some very astute posters on here , including tactically 

Yes some make good points...others have no idea, often sighting that we play with no width, when Bryan and Little don't actually leave the touchline. Plus numerous other hypocritical comments about LJ doing things, the exact same people were asking him to do when he took over from SC.Sorry mate...I understand peoples frustrations, but there are some serious case's of dummy throwing going on, and vitriolic posts aimed to just cause unrest, argument or just plain vindictive. This place has become toxic, and some decent people have changed their personalities greatly...often in the past diligent and thoughtful, but now just full of throw away 'Sun like sensationalist' throw comments.

This is not a good place to debate anymore.

[aa_bcfc]

There is no argument about not sacking him. Should have gone weeks ago with the record loses. Too late after the Rotherham game with any new manager facing the difficult away games.

Last chance for Johnson  was v Forrest, there was absolutely no case for keeping him after that shambles. New manager would have had Burnley cup game to feel his feet and two home games to get the 'new manager' bounce before the difficult away games. 

IMO we're down with Johnson. Never known such an utter disgrace of a situation. 

[samo II]

18 minutes ago, spudski said:

Yes...Individual errors costing us goals. Yes...1 win in 3 months, Just because you or some fans don't understand the tactics, it doesn't mean there aren't any ;-), chopping and changing out of necessity, because of injuries and out of form players or unfit, had arguments about football...YES. 'People' haven't written off Wednesday, only folk who want it to be written off so that LJ gets sacked. I disagree that it was a toothless display against a Burnley side with a great home record. Of course I watch the match's...however, there are a lot on here who make negative comments, don't go regularly. They, are of course entitled to their opinion of course....whether taken seriously, is another thing.

About the bold bit; maybe I'm an idiot when it comes to these tactics you speak of, but like to think I can read a result.  I'm going to just pay out our last twenty for you;

LLWLDLLLWLLLLLLDLWLL

Put simply; that is 15 Losses, 2 draws, 3 wins (included the cup games against Hull, Burnley and Fleetwood; actually missed the Hull game when I did this before, so we're even worse over the last 20 than I previously stated).

Nothing defends that, Spud.  Nothing.  It's completely rubbish form stretching back over the best part of four months - essentially half a season.  LJ is living off a very decent opening month; the rest?  Garbage.  

And as for the underlined bit; some of the changes have been due to injury or availability - no doubt.  But that hasn't always been the case, and certainly hasn't explained the propensity to switch systems mid-game, leading to us surrendering decent positions (both Reading and Cardiff are prime examples).  It's not like we've have injuries to key players constantly; LJ has altered winning sides, losing side, drawing sides - he just seems to like to change things, and it clearly hasn't worked (see the row of letters above for proof).

Ignoring how rude and patronising your post was to plenty of fans who make a point of being civil and assessing the situation with a level-head, it also ignores the most important metric available in football - results.  We might play like Barca-bloody-lona, but if we can't get results; what's the bloody point?

[Red Army 75]

Worst run in our history. But us little fans don't know anything about football . What a load of bollocks .

[EnclosureSurge]

6 minutes ago, spudski said:

often sighting that we play with no width, when Bryan and Little don't actually leave the touchline.

Have to agree this is true. I've seen plenty of people slate us for buying a big bloke then say we don't cross/haven't got any width. Yet we scored goals v Reading and Cardiff from crosses to Djuric. Playing 3-5-2 is tricky without anyone out wide, even we aren't that crap. Bryan and Little play as wide as wingers and get crosses in. Maybe people mean the quality of the crosses aren't as good as needed, but for me it's false to say we play with no width - in those games, at least. 

[samo II]

5 minutes ago, EnclosureSurge said:

Have to agree this is true. I've seen plenty of people slate us for buying a big bloke then say we don't cross/haven't got any width. Yet we scored goals v Reading and Cardiff from crosses to Djuric. Playing 3-5-2 is tricky without anyone out wide, even we aren't that crap. Bryan and Little play as wide as wingers and get crosses in. Maybe people mean the quality of the crosses aren't as good as needed, but for me it's false to say we play with no width - in those games, at least. 

It's a fair point, but equally; when we play with wide midfielders (either 442 or 4231) LJ puts left footers on the right, and right footers on the left.

Why?

It seems completely counter-intuitive, and is telling  our best chance yesterday came from a cross... from a right back.  

If he wants to play 352 he should know he needs quality wing backs; half a season playing 352 under Cotts with EXACTLY the same wide players told us we didn't have the personnel for it, so why a season later are we reverting to it when all we have available are the same two wide men?

I realise I clearly don't know about tactics, but I do know if you're getting it wide to pop crosses in, it helps to have folks on the left and right who use the relevant feet...

[Portland Bill]

2 hours ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Even if LJ gets binned off... Seriously, given the fact we've only appointed 'young, up and coming managers', good lower league managers, internal appointments with the exception of Coppell who walked out after 2 games and maybe Wilson in recent memory.

What makes you think that SL will go down a different path and furthermore what makes you think a more 'experienced' manager will even come here anyway? The club can't on looking for a short term fix, they need stability on what they aiming to achieve in the long term, not to keep restarting every 5 minutes

We have to find the correct manager first before we can achieve stability, the one we have now is clearly not able to stabilise us in this league. I personally feel that SC was very badly treated, he wanted to take us to the next level and wanted to sign players that have clearly shown their worth over the last 18 months.

 I won't feel the same about LJ when he goes, he has spent millions on players who he wants to fit into his system, but, his system clearly doesn't work in the league we want to stabilise ourselves in. He's either blind to it, or just stubborn.