The argument against sacking

[Jack Dawe]

For a club like Rotherham or Burton - with poorer players than other clubs, and without the means to change that - sacking is unlikely to change much. Only an exceptional coach/manager will get more of a "tune" out of a limited group of players, in a league position more or less where they "should" be, or expected to be. Rotherham found that "exception" last season, but not this.

Does anyone think the squad of players we have is where they "should" be in the league table, or where they might reasonably be expected to be?

And if you do think this, who is responsible for assembling an inadequate squad of players, with a midtable budget?

 

For a club like Blackburn, where the problems are clearly at the very top of the club, sacking and changing coach/manager might bring short-term relief and some success, but not long-term. Again, unless they can attract an exceptional replacement. Difficult to do, with notorious owners and a struggling team.

Does anyone think that our owner is the problem this season (leaving aside his appointment of Head Coach a year ago)?

 

For a club like Bristol City in it's previous Championship visit, sacking/changing the coach/manager didn't change much, or enough, because we had a bottom third group of players, an old stadium, poor scouting set up, low-ish crowds, a non-football experienced COO, and an out dated and ill thought out recruitment policy, amongst other problems and hindrances. Changing the coach/manager then, was like moving the furniture on the Titanic: it was missing the point (or the gaping ****ing hole where the water was gushing in).

 

In all the above examples, I agree: changing the coach is not addressing the problem and unlikely to result in long-term change. 

 

For a club like Bristol City now, in 2017 though - with a midtable budget, the 10th best average gate in the division, a competent COO, a much improved, modernised scouting set up, an excellent fit-for-purpose stadium, third top scorer in the division, playing talent and experience (according to the HC), and funds to bring in more talent/experience, no debt concerns, various new "funding streams," - to have a team losing 11 in 13 and dropping to 21st and 2 points from the drop tells us something is wrong somewhere and sacking/changing the coach/manager has got a better chance of working than in the other examples noted above. Because everything else is in place, right?

 

The only argument I can see - in the abscence of any evidence that we are in this slump because of something other than a Head Coach not up to the task - against sacking/changing our head coach again, now, is because the chap that appointed the HC and the HC are friends and it is awkward, and it is rather embarrassing following the contract extension given to the HC in December. And it's not "nice,"  sacking someone, and SL is "nice," and lots of people on here and at the ground are "nice." And the HC is "nice." But football, at the top, is not "nice." Football is unforgiving. 

I cannot see what we have to lose - we are not a club like Rotherham or Burton or Blackburn or Bristol City (2008-2013). Are we? 

We can do the long-term thing with the next chap, can't we? If he can avoid breaking any club records (of the notmakingbristolproud variety) that is.

 

So, what are the arguments against removing LJ, bearing in mind the talent we have, the stadium, the generous owner, the good crowds, the etc, etc? I can start us off:

1. The chap that appointed the current Head Coach, will be appointing the next Head Coach.

2.

 

 

[CodeRed]

27 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

 

1. The chap that appointed the current Head Coach, will be appointing the next Head Coach.

2.

 

 

The chap that appointed the current Head Coach needs to stand back and let the chap he employed to run the "Football Operations" run the Football operation - and then that chap should pick a HC with the necessary qualifications to do the job.

In Theory.

 

In reality the chap that appointed the current head coach will appoint the next one and the chap that runs the Football operations is a sycophant who simply does what the chap that owns the club tells him to do.

  The chap that runs (and is responsible for) the football operation is overseeing a disaster performance but is standing by and not taking the necessary action because he's waiting for the chap to tell him when to sack the HC.

If MA had any real control he'd fire LJ for his performance , appoint a replacement, and simply advise SL what he's done.

 

At Tottenham Daniel Levy runs the club, he's the Chairman/Ceo not the owner - but he does all the hiring and firing and signs off all the deals................and does it quite well.  Joe Lewis is the owner and majority shareholder, he lives in a tax haven offshore (sound familiar?) and leaves Levy - a paid employee - to get on with it (not so familiar!!)

 

[oldstandrobin]

Good post Jack but the jury is back

[Top Robin]

All we flippin want is a manager who is capable of making us competitive in the Championship......its not much to ask for.

We don't even have to get promoted yet, just play games where we compete properly and with passion and win a few on the way.

That man must be out there for us.

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

17 minutes ago, Top Robin said:

All we flippin want is a manager who is capable of making us competitive in the Championship......its not much to ask for.

We don't even have to get promoted yet, just play games where we compete properly and with passion and win a few on the way.

That man must be out there for us.

Doubt it... 

[Jack Dawe]

4 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Doubt it... 

Do what we did last year (it kept us up). Trawl the middle of L1 and see what we find

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

5 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Do what we did last year (it kept us up). Trawl the middle of L1 and see what we find

Even if LJ gets binned off... Seriously, given the fact we've only appointed 'young, up and coming managers', good lower league managers, internal appointments with the exception of Coppell who walked out after 2 games and maybe Wilson in recent memory.

What makes you think that SL will go down a different path and furthermore what makes you think a more 'experienced' manager will even come here anyway? The club can't on looking for a short term fix, they need stability on what they aiming to achieve in the long term, not to keep restarting every 5 minutes

[Chappers]

16 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Even if LJ gets binned off... Seriously, given the fact we've only appointed 'young, up and coming managers', good lower league managers, internal appointments with the exception of Coppell who walked out after 2 games and maybe Wilson in recent memory.

What makes you think that SL will go down a different path and furthermore what makes you think a more 'experienced' manager will even come here anyway? The club can't on looking for a short term fix, they need stability on what they aiming to achieve in the long term, not to keep restarting every 5 minutes

And apart from O'Driscoll and Cotterill..... So that leaves Millen who did a good job as caretaker so a sensible choice and McInnes whose track record in Scotland made him worth a punt. And Johnson. 

[samo II]

7 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Even if LJ gets binned off... Seriously, given the fact we've only appointed 'young, up and coming managers', good lower league managers, internal appointments with the exception of Coppell who walked out after 2 games and maybe Wilson in recent memory.

What makes you think that SL will go down a different path and furthermore what makes you think a more 'experienced' manager will even come here anyway? The club can't on looking for a short term fix, they need stability on what they aiming to achieve in the long term, not to keep restarting every 5 minutes

In many ways I agree, except on the point of experience; this is a relative aspect, and has to be weighted against achievements too.

The name keeps coming up, but Rowett is a solid example; prior to being appointed at Birmingham, he had comparable experience to LJ (if you weigh a couple of attempted promotion campaigns from League Two the same as keeping teams in League One like LJ did), but then took what he had at Birmingham - an unbalanced and quality poor squad - and built them into a top half team, and when given some money (this past  summer) was able to match/improve on that.

He's a similar young head coach with comparative experience, but better achievements at this level.  

Not advocating he come in, but isn't the case there is no one able to build on what we have, and perhaps improve us immediately.

I don't want us to become a short term, sacking-per-year club.  But I don't want us to go to League One either, and if LJ can't spin our form on its head sharpish, then I'm sorry; but we need to do something.  SL said it himself.

I had hoped LJ would perhaps be our Chris Hughton; arriving midseason with the team struggling, just keep us up with shrewd signings, build on that in the summer, then make us a competitive the following season.  Hasn't happened, and in fact I believe we're playing worse football now after a year of LJ in charge.  

Maybe LJ can turn it around; I don't know.  But I simply do not believe we couldn't have been more competitive with the squad we now have or not set up or motivated differently.  LJ needs the team to get him something on Wednesday, because we're running out of time.

[Jack Dawe]

20 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Even if LJ gets binned off... Seriously, given the fact we've only appointed 'young, up and coming managers', good lower league managers, internal appointments with the exception of Coppell who walked out after 2 games and maybe Wilson in recent memory.

What makes you think that SL will go down a different path and furthermore what makes you think a more 'experienced' manager will even come here anyway? The club can't on looking for a short term fix, they need stability on what they aiming to achieve in the long term, not to keep restarting every 5 minutes

The not-sacking/ stability thing will work when it goes hand-in-hand with the appointing-the-right-coach thing. They go together. We could try appointing the best qualified applicant or bloke willing to listen and sign. Which we did not do last time.

No guarantees, of course, unlike appointing young coaches "who, like young players, will make mistakes" and of whom you think "it might not be too soon"

[chinapig]

38 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Do what we did last year (it kept us up). Trawl the middle of L1 and see what we find

No doubt you are being tongue in cheek but that is the sort we would attract with our strategy and set up, an up and coming coach.

But that will infuriate those who want a 'big name ', ignoring the fact that such managers - don't call them coaches, they won't like it - will want complete control and won't settle for being one part of a wider team.

Chances are sacking LJ will not deliver the outcome people want I fear.

[Chappers]

And of course we had Gary Kohnson, lower league manager, most successful since Ward, lower league manager, Jordan, no experience and Dicks, no experience when he joined. 

[chinapig]

13 minutes ago, Chappers said:

And of course we had Gary Kohnson, lower league manager, most successful since Ward, lower league manager, Jordan, no experience and Dicks, no experience when he joined. 

Johnson was in terms of league position achieved the most successful since Dicks wasn't he, though he seems to be despised around here. Likewise Dicks had to survive pretty vitriolic campaigns to get him sacked. I dread to think what it would have been like had web forums existed then.

However in those days there was less fantasing about recruiting the Moyes' of this world who can command millions managing a struggling Prem club. It was understood that we were a little club that had to have realistic expectations when it came to the managers we could attract.

[spudski]

2 hours ago, Jack Dawe said:

For a club like Rotherham or Burton - with poorer players than other clubs, and without the means to change that - sacking is unlikely to change much. Only an exceptional coach/manager will get more of a "tune" out of a limited group of players, in a league position more or less where they "should" be, or expected to be. Rotherham found that "exception" last season, but not this.

Does anyone think the squad of players we have is where they "should" be in the league table, or where they might reasonably be expected to be?

And if you do think this, who is responsible for assembling an inadequate squad of players, with a midtable budget?

 

For a club like Blackburn, where the problems are clearly at the very top of the club, sacking and changing coach/manager might bring short-term relief and some success, but not long-term. Again, unless they can attract an exceptional replacement. Difficult to do, with notorious owners and a struggling team.

Does anyone think that our owner is the problem this season (leaving aside his appointment of Head Coach a year ago)?

 

For a club like Bristol City in it's previous Championship visit, sacking/changing the coach/manager didn't change much, or enough, because we had a bottom third group of players, an old stadium, poor scouting set up, low-ish crowds, a non-football experienced COO, and an out dated and ill thought out recruitment policy, amongst other problems and hindrances. Changing the coach/manager then, was like moving the furniture on the Titanic: it was missing the point (or the gaping ****ing hole where the water was gushing in).

 

In all the above examples, I agree: changing the coach is not addressing the problem and unlikely to result in long-term change. 

 

For a club like Bristol City now, in 2017 though - with a midtable budget, the 10th best average gate in the division, a competent COO, a much improved, modernised scouting set up, an excellent fit-for-purpose stadium, third top scorer in the division, playing talent and experience (according to the HC), and funds to bring in more talent/experience, no debt concerns, various new "funding streams," - to have a team losing 11 in 13 and dropping to 21st and 2 points from the drop tells us something is wrong somewhere and sacking/changing the coach/manager has got a better chance of working than in the other examples noted above. Because everything else is in place, right?

 

The only argument I can see - in the abscence of any evidence that we are in this slump because of something other than a Head Coach not up to the task - against sacking/changing our head coach again, now, is because the chap that appointed the HC and the HC are friends and it is awkward, and it is rather embarrassing following the contract extension given to the HC in December. And it's not "nice,"  sacking someone, and SL is "nice," and lots of people on here and at the ground are "nice." And the HC is "nice." But football, at the top, is not "nice." Football is unforgiving. 

I cannot see what we have to lose - we are not a club like Rotherham or Burton or Blackburn or Bristol City (2008-2013). Are we? 

We can do the long-term thing with the next chap, can't we? If he can avoid breaking any club records (of the notmakingbristolproud variety) that is.

 

So, what are the arguments against removing LJ, bearing in mind the talent we have, the stadium, the generous owner, the good crowds, the etc, etc? I can start us off:

1. The chap that appointed the current Head Coach, will be appointing the next Head Coach.

2.

 

 

We still might end up Mid Table JD...we are only just over half way through the season. It's a marathon, not a sprint...we were in the leading pack at the start of the race, have gone back through the pack....we've still got another 10 miles to get over our 'stitch', and catch new breath, and move up through the places ;-)

[Chairman Mao]

3 minutes ago, spudski said:

We still might end up Mid Table JD...we are only just over half way through the season. It's a marathon, not a sprint...we were in the leading pack at the start of the race, have gone back through the pack....we've still got another 10 miles to get over our 'stitch', and catch new breath, and move up through the places ;-)

With LJ in charge? Do you watch the matches? We are a shambles, throwing goals away in the last minute for fun, Ipswich, Wolves, Preston, Cardiff, Reading, the list goes on, 1 league win in 3 months, no apparent idea in tactics - chopping and changing for fun, seems like he has fallen out with half the players. It's a disaster zone, epitomised by the fact LJ runs down the tunnel at the end of the last home game.

People have written off Wednesday, that's how bad it is, we were 6th in October and now he's relying on a win over a L1 bound Rotherham for a stay of execution saying the lads 'played well' in a toothless 2-0 defeat to a much changed Burnley side. 

[pillred]

Gary kohnson,god please don't tell me there are more of them!!

 

[spudski]

8 minutes ago, Chairman Mao said:

With LJ in charge? Do you watch the matches? We are a shambles, throwing goals away in the last minute for fun, Ipswich, Wolves, Preston, Cardiff, Reading, the list goes on, 1 league win in 3 months, no apparent idea in tactics - chopping and changing for fun, seems like he has fallen out with half the players. It's a disaster zone, epitomised by the fact LJ runs down the tunnel at the end of the last home game.

People have written off Wednesday, that's how bad it is, we were 6th in October and now he's relying on a win over a L1 bound Rotherham for a stay of execution saying the lads 'played well' in a toothless 2-0 defeat to a much changed Burnley side. 

Yes...Individual errors costing us goals. Yes...1 win in 3 months, Just because you or some fans don't understand the tactics, it doesn't mean there aren't any ;-), chopping and changing out of necessity, because of injuries and out of form players or unfit, had arguments about football...YES. 'People' haven't written off Wednesday, only folk who want it to be written off so that LJ gets sacked. I disagree that it was a toothless display against a Burnley side with a great home record. Of course I watch the match's...however, there are a lot on here who make negative comments, don't go regularly. They, are of course entitled to their opinion of course....whether taken seriously, is another thing.

 

[pillred]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

Yes...Individual errors costing us goals. Yes...1 win in 3 months, Just because you or some fans don't understand the tactics, it doesn't mean there aren't any ;-), chopping and changing out of necessity, because of injuries and out of form players or unfit, had arguments about football...YES. 'People' haven't written off Wednesday, only folk who want it to be written off so that LJ gets sacked. I disagree that it was a toothless display against a Burnley side with a great home record. Of course I watch the match's...however, there are a lot on here who make negative comments, don't go regularly. They, are of course entitled to their opinion of course....whether taken seriously, is another thing.

 

thank god for that, for a moment I thought we were going through our worst run in our history

[BobBobSuperBob]

9 minutes ago, spudski said:

Yes...Individual errors costing us goals. Yes...1 win in 3 months, Just because you or some fans don't understand the tactics, it doesn't mean there aren't any ;-), chopping and changing out of necessity, because of injuries and out of form players or unfit, had arguments about football...YES. 'People' haven't written off Wednesday, only folk who want it to be written off so that LJ gets sacked. I disagree that it was a toothless display against a Burnley side with a great home record. Of course I watch the match's...however, there are a lot on here who make negative comments, don't go regularly. They, are of course entitled to their opinion of course....whether taken seriously, is another thing.

 

Very dismissive Spud

Not good

Your take on current tactics and problems are yours

Some very astute posters on here , including tactically 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, oldstandrobin said:

Good post Jack but the jury is back

Fabio Capello has gone a bit white since managing England.

[Dynamite Red]

5 minutes ago, spudski said:

Yes...Individual errors costing us goals. Yes...1 win in 3 months, Just because you or some fans don't understand the tactics, it doesn't mean there aren't any ;-), chopping and changing out of necessity, because of injuries and out of form players or unfit, had arguments about football...YES. 'People' haven't written off Wednesday, only folk who want it to be written off so that LJ gets sacked. I disagree that it was a toothless display against a Burnley side with a great home record. Of course I watch the match's...however, there are a lot on here who make negative comments, don't go regularly. They, are of course entitled to their opinion of course....whether taken seriously, is another thing.

 

Your condecendense knows no bounds. Incredible 

[Chairman Mao]

12 minutes ago, spudski said:

Yes...Individual errors costing us goals. Yes...1 win in 3 months, Just because you or some fans don't understand the tactics, it doesn't mean there aren't any ;-), chopping and changing out of necessity, because of injuries and out of form players or unfit, had arguments about football...YES. 'People' haven't written off Wednesday, only folk who want it to be written off so that LJ gets sacked. I disagree that it was a toothless display against a Burnley side with a great home record. Of course I watch the match's...however, there are a lot on here who make negative comments, don't go regularly. They, are of course entitled to their opinion of course....whether taken seriously, is another thing.

 

It appears the players don't understand the tactics either and that they aren't working hence, and I hate to come back to it, 1 win in 3 months!

[EnclosureSurge]

3 hours ago, CodeRed said:

The chap that appointed the current Head Coach needs to stand back and let the chap he employed to run the "Football Operations" run the Football operation - and then that chap should pick a HC with the necessary qualifications to do the job.

In reality the chap that appointed the current head coach will appoint the next one and the chap that runs the Football operations is a sycophant who simply does what the chap that owns the club tells him to do.

 

 

Well put.

The root of our problem is Lansdown. That's the be all and end all. He's a godsend and a f******. At the same time. If he could step back, let the all of the football things be run by someone with solely proper football experience - not a mix of some experience running a FC and a lot of experience in business - we'd have a better chance. 

[spudski]

Just now, Chairman Mao said:

It appears the players don't understand either and that they aren't working hence, and I hate to come back to it, 1 win in 3 months!

And this where I can't take your comment seriously...because I can clearly see what the players are being asked to do. They keep shape well...however it appears tactics mean the likes of Golbourne dilly dallying...and Reid making a crap pass into a player. People read that as 'not understanding tactics' or 'don't understand what is being asked of them'....it's not...it individual errors, often basic footballing, not tactics.

8 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Very dismissive Spud

Not good

Your take on current tactics and problems are yours

Some very astute posters on here , including tactically 

Yes some make good points...others have no idea, often sighting that we play with no width, when Bryan and Little don't actually leave the touchline. Plus numerous other hypocritical comments about LJ doing things, the exact same people were asking him to do when he took over from SC.Sorry mate...I understand peoples frustrations, but there are some serious case's of dummy throwing going on, and vitriolic posts aimed to just cause unrest, argument or just plain vindictive. This place has become toxic, and some decent people have changed their personalities greatly...often in the past diligent and thoughtful, but now just full of throw away 'Sun like sensationalist' throw comments.

This is not a good place to debate anymore.

[aa_bcfc]

There is no argument about not sacking him. Should have gone weeks ago with the record loses. Too late after the Rotherham game with any new manager facing the difficult away games.

Last chance for Johnson  was v Forrest, there was absolutely no case for keeping him after that shambles. New manager would have had Burnley cup game to feel his feet and two home games to get the 'new manager' bounce before the difficult away games. 

IMO we're down with Johnson. Never known such an utter disgrace of a situation. 

[samo II]

18 minutes ago, spudski said:

Yes...Individual errors costing us goals. Yes...1 win in 3 months, Just because you or some fans don't understand the tactics, it doesn't mean there aren't any ;-), chopping and changing out of necessity, because of injuries and out of form players or unfit, had arguments about football...YES. 'People' haven't written off Wednesday, only folk who want it to be written off so that LJ gets sacked. I disagree that it was a toothless display against a Burnley side with a great home record. Of course I watch the match's...however, there are a lot on here who make negative comments, don't go regularly. They, are of course entitled to their opinion of course....whether taken seriously, is another thing.

About the bold bit; maybe I'm an idiot when it comes to these tactics you speak of, but like to think I can read a result.  I'm going to just pay out our last twenty for you;

LLWLDLLLWLLLLLLDLWLL

Put simply; that is 15 Losses, 2 draws, 3 wins (included the cup games against Hull, Burnley and Fleetwood; actually missed the Hull game when I did this before, so we're even worse over the last 20 than I previously stated).

Nothing defends that, Spud.  Nothing.  It's completely rubbish form stretching back over the best part of four months - essentially half a season.  LJ is living off a very decent opening month; the rest?  Garbage.  

And as for the underlined bit; some of the changes have been due to injury or availability - no doubt.  But that hasn't always been the case, and certainly hasn't explained the propensity to switch systems mid-game, leading to us surrendering decent positions (both Reading and Cardiff are prime examples).  It's not like we've have injuries to key players constantly; LJ has altered winning sides, losing side, drawing sides - he just seems to like to change things, and it clearly hasn't worked (see the row of letters above for proof).

Ignoring how rude and patronising your post was to plenty of fans who make a point of being civil and assessing the situation with a level-head, it also ignores the most important metric available in football - results.  We might play like Barca-bloody-lona, but if we can't get results; what's the bloody point?

[Red Army 75]

Worst run in our history. But us little fans don't know anything about football . What a load of bollocks .

[EnclosureSurge]

6 minutes ago, spudski said:

often sighting that we play with no width, when Bryan and Little don't actually leave the touchline.

Have to agree this is true. I've seen plenty of people slate us for buying a big bloke then say we don't cross/haven't got any width. Yet we scored goals v Reading and Cardiff from crosses to Djuric. Playing 3-5-2 is tricky without anyone out wide, even we aren't that crap. Bryan and Little play as wide as wingers and get crosses in. Maybe people mean the quality of the crosses aren't as good as needed, but for me it's false to say we play with no width - in those games, at least. 

[samo II]

5 minutes ago, EnclosureSurge said:

Have to agree this is true. I've seen plenty of people slate us for buying a big bloke then say we don't cross/haven't got any width. Yet we scored goals v Reading and Cardiff from crosses to Djuric. Playing 3-5-2 is tricky without anyone out wide, even we aren't that crap. Bryan and Little play as wide as wingers and get crosses in. Maybe people mean the quality of the crosses aren't as good as needed, but for me it's false to say we play with no width - in those games, at least. 

It's a fair point, but equally; when we play with wide midfielders (either 442 or 4231) LJ puts left footers on the right, and right footers on the left.

Why?

It seems completely counter-intuitive, and is telling  our best chance yesterday came from a cross... from a right back.  

If he wants to play 352 he should know he needs quality wing backs; half a season playing 352 under Cotts with EXACTLY the same wide players told us we didn't have the personnel for it, so why a season later are we reverting to it when all we have available are the same two wide men?

I realise I clearly don't know about tactics, but I do know if you're getting it wide to pop crosses in, it helps to have folks on the left and right who use the relevant feet...

[Portland Bill]

2 hours ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Even if LJ gets binned off... Seriously, given the fact we've only appointed 'young, up and coming managers', good lower league managers, internal appointments with the exception of Coppell who walked out after 2 games and maybe Wilson in recent memory.

What makes you think that SL will go down a different path and furthermore what makes you think a more 'experienced' manager will even come here anyway? The club can't on looking for a short term fix, they need stability on what they aiming to achieve in the long term, not to keep restarting every 5 minutes

We have to find the correct manager first before we can achieve stability, the one we have now is clearly not able to stabilise us in this league. I personally feel that SC was very badly treated, he wanted to take us to the next level and wanted to sign players that have clearly shown their worth over the last 18 months.

 I won't feel the same about LJ when he goes, he has spent millions on players who he wants to fit into his system, but, his system clearly doesn't work in the league we want to stabilise ourselves in. He's either blind to it, or just stubborn.

 

[screech]

41 minutes ago, spudski said:

Yes...Individual errors costing us goals. Yes...1 win in 3 months, Just because you or some fans don't understand the tactics, it doesn't mean there aren't any ;-), chopping and changing out of necessity, because of injuries and out of form players or unfit, had arguments about football...YES. 'People' haven't written off Wednesday, only folk who want it to be written off so that LJ gets sacked. I disagree that it was a toothless display against a Burnley side with a great home record. Of course I watch the match's...however, there are a lot on here who make negative comments, don't go regularly. They, are of course entitled to their opinion of course....whether taken seriously, is another thing.

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, samo II said:

About the bold bit; maybe I'm an idiot when it comes to these tactics you speak of, but like to think I can read a result.  I'm going to just pay out our last twenty for you;

LLWLDLLLWLLLLLLDLWLL

Put simply; that is 15 Losses, 2 draws, 3 wins (included the cup games against Hull, Burnley and Fleetwood; actually missed the Hull game when I did this before, so we're even worse over the last 20 than I previously stated).

Nothing defends that, Spud.  Nothing.  It's completely rubbish form stretching back over the best part of four months - essentially half a season.  LJ is living off a very decent opening month; the rest?  Garbage.  

And as for the underlined bit; some of the changes have been due to injury or availability - no doubt.  But that hasn't always been the case, and certainly hasn't explained the propensity to switch systems mid-game, leading to us surrendering decent positions (both Reading and Cardiff are prime examples).  It's not like we've have injuries to key players constantly; LJ has altered winning sides, losing side, drawing sides - he just seems to like to change things, and it clearly hasn't worked (see the row of letters above for proof).

Ignoring how rude and patronising your post was to plenty of fans who make a point of being civil and assessing the situation with a level-head, it also ignores the most important metric available in football - results.  We might play like Barca-bloody-lona, but if we can't get results; what's the bloody point?

I'm disagreeing with the results mate...they are a fact. But people keep sighting that it's the tactics that are a problem. Then sight that players don't understand them. That's all 'theory and made up bullshit'. They don't give reasons as to why tactics have conceded a goal...or if they talk about tactics, it often contradicts to what is actually happening on the pitch.

No one actually offers a serious solution, and answer...apart from...'sack the manager'.

Tell you what, I'll say it...sack the manager...lets get someone else in. Lets see him fail too. And guess what... the fans will then say it's the players fault, or SL's.

It just goes round and round...finger pointing.

[EnclosureSurge]

13 minutes ago, samo II said:

It's a fair point, but equally; when we play with wide midfielders (either 442 or 4231) LJ puts left footers on the right, and right footers on the left.

Why?

It seems completely counter-intuitive, and is telling  our best chance yesterday came from a cross... from a right back.  

 

Agree whole-heartedly. In recent years there has been a tactical 'development' (if, indeed, it is a forward development, or, in fact, a tactic?) to put right-footed players on the left and vice versa...with the intent to be able to cut in and shoot, play one-twos, move the full-back on to his/her weaker foot. Someone, somewhere started this, prob in the Prem, and everyone copies it. It is de rigueur to do so. Even when it is ineffective (as with us). (Obv it happened in previous eras of football, too - I'm sure Walshy would spend a bit of time on the right wing should a full-back have the temerity to not fall for his shuffle, but this was for a spell during one game at a time, not for weeks on end).

Perversely in recent weeks some of the best football (current bad boy) Freeman played was back on the left - he put in two splendid crosses from in front of the away fans in a couple of games around Christmas (they all merge in to one these games, no idea which ones it was specifically). But, come the next game he trotted back out to the right, down his cul-de-sac, as playing a left-footed player on the left was something we only did with a midfielder/wide player as an alternative to it not working on the other side (a regular occurrence).

This 'tactical' point seems to be something with Johnson - he's had so much buzz about him being up-and-coming, next generation, young and full of new ideas that all these ideas (like playing players in the wrong places) are just too much. He's forgotten the basics, in my opinion, and placed too much emphasis on new-fangled dronery.

[pillred]

11 minutes ago, spudski said:

I'm disagreeing with the results mate...they are a fact. But people keep sighting that it's the tactics that are a problem. Then sight that players don't understand them. That's all 'theory and made up bullshit'. They don't give reasons as to why tactics have conceded a goal...or if they talk about tactics, it often contradicts to what is actually happening on the pitch.

No one actually offers a serious solution, and answer...apart from...'sack the manager'.

Tell you what, I'll say it...sack the manager...lets get someone else in. Lets see him fail too. And guess what... the fans will then say it's the players fault, or SL's.

It just goes round and round...finger pointing.

how do you know a new manager would fail?

[Red Army 75]

And how do we know the players are playing for Johnson. Because IF he has lost the dressing room. He's ****** . It's not all about tactics it's about personality as well 

[samo II]

Just now, spudski said:

I'm disagreeing with the results mate...they are a fact. But people keep sighting that it's the tactics that are a problem. Then sight that players don't understand them. That's all 'theory and made up bullshit'. They don't give reasons as to why tactics have conceded a goal...or if they talk about tactics, it often contradicts to what is actually happening on the pitch.

No one actually offers a serious solution, and answer...apart from...'sack the manager'.

Tell you what, I'll say it...sack the manager...lets get someone else in. Lets see him fail too. And guess what... the fans will then say it's the players fault, or SL's.

It just goes round and round...finger pointing.

So to get this straight; your position seems to be that our tactics and selections are fine, but it is simply individual mistakes that are costing us - is that correct?

You're suggestion is that four months of bad results are purely down to errors?  Or is there anything else in there?  Nothing that comes from the manager and coaching staff has any influence?  Are you honestly of the sincere belief that we'd be getting significantly better results purely if we got rid of the errors?

I guess we'll simply have to disagree.  

Personally, I think the low quality of the chances we generate and our lack of a settled defence is more responsible for both our inability to score and propensity to concede from basic defensive situations, and as such our results.  I also think LJ doesn't read the game as well as other managers; against Cardiff he responded to them deploying wingers by bringing on Wilbraham, which allowed Little in particular to get isolated and be forced into... mistakes.

These things do not exist in isolation; the mistakes we see are frequently 'forced' on the team - we're not spannering in own goals left. right and centre; we're being out played.

And I honestly think the bloody minded determination to try and play through the middle has massively reduced out effectiveness in front of goal; look back to the run of decent results early season - we scored goals from balls slung into the box from wide positions, or knockdowns and second balls via packing the box with players - this was also often the result of already being behind, and being forced to be cavalier by throwing on forwards; in context, this should have been a warning sign.

It is also telling that of the 18 goals we've scored in the last 20 games, six are shared equally between Wilbraham and Tomlin - the latter is apparently too ill and unfit to make the squad, while the latter has been limited to desperation cameos, and says a lot he's getting goals while doing this, as we generate such crap opportunities otherwise.

You can tell me I don't know what I'm talking about; that's fine.  But I believe that the opposite of what you see as being the case is true; another coach could very well correct some of the clear issues we have, and I think they are tactical - LJ hasn't improved the players he inherited, nor found a way to use those he's bought.  A fresh perspective can sometimes be exactly what is needed in a slump like this. 

I hope he can turn it around, but nothing I've seen with my own eyes sees it as likely.  I'm no kneejerk "LJ Out" keyboard warrior; I'm a fan who is watching his team spiral into a hole we shouldn't be stuck in - and I believe the head coach is where the problem lies.

[Portland Bill]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Yes...Individual errors costing us goals. Yes...1 win in 3 months, Just because you or some fans don't understand the tactics, it doesn't mean there aren't any ;-), chopping and changing out of necessity, because of injuries and out of form players or unfit, had arguments about football...YES. 'People' haven't written off Wednesday, only folk who want it to be written off so that LJ gets sacked. I disagree that it was a toothless display against a Burnley side with a great home record. Of course I watch the match's...however, there are a lot on here who make negative comments, don't go regularly. They, are of course entitled to their opinion of course....whether taken seriously, is another thing.

 

Burnley made 8 CHANGES yesterday, they also had to change their tactics, it wasn't hard for them though was it!. They are a side that has spent the majority of this season sitting in and counter attacking. Often having just 30% ( or less)  of possession. Yesterday they had 57%, double what they had in their previous game. 

Our manager is tactically out of his depth in this league and results are all the proof needed. Every other coach/manager knows how we play. There's not many ways you can set up as a 'narrow' team, a shape that doesn't work in this league. again, results are proof.

I and many more on this forum totally understand tactics, the reality for you is that the lack of LJ being able to change his tactics before ( and during) games is the reason we are getting shafted every week. His tactical ideology is wrong, we need width, without it we will go down. Either he changes tactically, or the manager changes.

 

 

[WhistleHappy]

33 minutes ago, screech said:

On Days Like These ....

We just need someone who can.... BLOW THE BLOODY DOORS OFF!!! 

Get a bloody move on ....& ...

......Get The Wheels In Line .

 

[chinapig]

22 minutes ago, samo II said:

So to get this straight; your position seems to be that our tactics and selections are fine, but it is simply individual mistakes that are costing us - is that correct?

You're suggestion is that four months of bad results are purely down to errors?  Or is there anything else in there?  Nothing that comes from the manager and coaching staff has any influence?  Are you honestly of the sincere belief that we'd be getting significantly better results purely if we got rid of the errors?

I guess we'll simply have to disagree.  

Personally, I think the low quality of the chances we generate and our lack of a settled defence is more responsible for both our inability to score and propensity to concede from basic defensive situations, and as such our results.  I also think LJ doesn't read the game as well as other managers; against Cardiff he responded to them deploying wingers by bringing on Wilbraham, which allowed Little in particular to get isolated and be forced into... mistakes.

These things do not exist in isolation; the mistakes we see are frequently 'forced' on the team - we're not spannering in own goals left. right and centre; we're being out played.

And I honestly think the bloody minded determination to try and play through the middle has massively reduced out effectiveness in front of goal; look back to the run of decent results early season - we scored goals from balls slung into the box from wide positions, or knockdowns and second balls via packing the box with players - this was also often the result of already being behind, and being forced to be cavalier by throwing on forwards; in context, this should have been a warning sign.

It is also telling that of the 18 goals we've scored in the last 20 games, six are shared equally between Wilbraham and Tomlin - the latter is apparently too ill and unfit to make the squad, while the latter has been limited to desperation cameos, and says a lot he's getting goals while doing this, as we generate such crap opportunities otherwise.

You can tell me I don't know what I'm talking about; that's fine.  But I believe that the opposite of what you see as being the case is true; another coach could very well correct some of the clear issues we have, and I think they are tactical - LJ hasn't improved the players he inherited, nor found a way to use those he's bought.  A fresh perspective can sometimes be exactly what is needed in a slump like this. 

I hope he can turn it around, but nothing I've seen with my own eyes sees it as likely.  I'm no kneejerk "LJ Out" keyboard warrior; I'm a fan who is watching his team spiral into a hole we shouldn't be stuck in - and I believe the head coach is where the problem lies.

You make your case in an articulate and passionate way yet like most fans you seem to want to entirely exonerate players from any responsibility. So if a player makes a crass mistake it's nothing to do with him it's the tactics to blame. Presumably then Reid giving the ball away ahead of the first goal yesterday was LJ's fault.

My point being by all means criticise the coach but can we please stop giving players a get out for bad decision making or poor execution? They live a sheltered enough life as it is without being encouraged to avoid responsibility.

After all my boss may have overall responsibility but if my performance is poor I carry the can. Why should it be different for footballers?

[chinapig]

37 minutes ago, samo II said:

So to get this straight; your position seems to be that our tactics and selections are fine, but it is simply individual mistakes that are costing us - is that correct?

You're suggestion is that four months of bad results are purely down to errors?  Or is there anything else in there?  Nothing that comes from the manager and coaching staff has any influence?  Are you honestly of the sincere belief that we'd be getting significantly better results purely if we got rid of the errors?

I guess we'll simply have to disagree.  

Personally, I think the low quality of the chances we generate and our lack of a settled defence is more responsible for both our inability to score and propensity to concede from basic defensive situations, and as such our results.  I also think LJ doesn't read the game as well as other managers; against Cardiff he responded to them deploying wingers by bringing on Wilbraham, which allowed Little in particular to get isolated and be forced into... mistakes.

These things do not exist in isolation; the mistakes we see are frequently 'forced' on the team - we're not spannering in own goals left. right and centre; we're being out played.

And I honestly think the bloody minded determination to try and play through the middle has massively reduced out effectiveness in front of goal; look back to the run of decent results early season - we scored goals from balls slung into the box from wide positions, or knockdowns and second balls via packing the box with players - this was also often the result of already being behind, and being forced to be cavalier by throwing on forwards; in context, this should have been a warning sign.

It is also telling that of the 18 goals we've scored in the last 20 games, six are shared equally between Wilbraham and Tomlin - the latter is apparently too ill and unfit to make the squad, while the latter has been limited to desperation cameos, and says a lot he's getting goals while doing this, as we generate such crap opportunities otherwise.

You can tell me I don't know what I'm talking about; that's fine.  But I believe that the opposite of what you see as being the case is true; another coach could very well correct some of the clear issues we have, and I think they are tactical - LJ hasn't improved the players he inherited, nor found a way to use those he's bought.  A fresh perspective can sometimes be exactly what is needed in a slump like this. 

I hope he can turn it around, but nothing I've seen with my own eyes sees it as likely.  I'm no kneejerk "LJ Out" keyboard warrior; I'm a fan who is watching his team spiral into a hole we shouldn't be stuck in - and I believe the head coach is where the problem lies.

You make your case in an articulate and passionate way yet like most fans you seem to want to entirely exonerate players from any responsibility. So if a player makes a crass mistake it's nothing to do with him it's the tactics to blame. Presumably then Reid giving the ball away ahead of the first goal yesterday was LJ's fault.

My point being by all means criticise the coach but can we please stop giving players a get out for bad decision making or poor execution? They live a sheltered enough life as it is without being encouraged to avoid responsibility.

After all my boss may have overall responsibility but if my performance is poor I carry the can. Why should it be different for footballers?

[Cowshed]

54 minutes ago, spudski said:

I'm disagreeing with the results mate...they are a fact. But people keep sighting that it's the tactics that are a problem. Then sight that players don't understand them. That's all 'theory and made up bullshit'. They don't give reasons as to why tactics have conceded a goal...or if they talk about tactics, it often contradicts to what is actually happening on the pitch.

No one actually offers a serious solution, and answer...apart from...'sack the manager'.

Tell you what, I'll say it...sack the manager...lets get someone else in. Lets see him fail too. And guess what... the fans will then say it's the players fault, or SL's.

It just goes round and round...finger pointing.

Your assertions is the players are at fault constantly because they are not carrying out instructions.

My assertion is this. It is Lee Johnson's scattergun tactics, tinkering and man management that are fault not the fault of 30+ players, including 17 who have been signed for Lee Johnson to manage, coach, inspire and improve.. 

[bearded_red]

I think we can all agree that the fact our players make mistakes and could be a lot better than they are is somewhat ******* obvious. They do make mistakes (they're playing in the second tier), they could be better (they play for Bristol City) and in the case of a select few of them I think they should be utterly ashamed of the performances they've put in in the last few months.

I won't go through all our defeats as I want to go to sleep at some stage tonight, but I'll pick one game. The first of our 8 game losing run, the only time during this losing run that I left the game feeling the opposition were any good. Huddersfield away. One that due to us somehow only losing 2-1 and it being gifted away by our comedic goalkeeper that if you wanted to peddle a certain myth you could say we were unlucky.

When I was told the team in the pub before the game I must admit I laughed. After tinkering with the team after pretty much every game regardless of results (something which I actually don't necessarily have a massive issue with) this week he actually picks the same team as he had done in the previous game at home to Ipswich. This week of all weeks. After the Ipswich game Johnson said he had picked a certain type of a team to do a certain job against a certain type of opposition. Those of us at that game will know exactly what he meant by that remark. Then a week later against a team that plays the way that Huddersfield do he picks the same team. As I say, I laughed. I'm not actually employed by the club to watch other teams in this league, yet I knew that Tomlin out wide would be embarrassed by the way their full backs bomb on, that we'd be overran in midfield with playing 2 up front and that we didn't have the counter attack threat to worry Huddersfield on the break even with the space they leave at the back when attacking.

And there we go. 1-0 down, their right back crossing the ball into the box while Tomlin is in a different postcode. Honestly it was laughable how much space they had down the right in that first half, time and time again, their winger would drift inside taking Golbourne with him and their right back would then maraud into the open space. Tomlin then at some stage just went and played in the middle and we had even less 'protection' in front of Golbourne. The clear running argument between Johnson and Tomlin first half is why I personally believe all the rumours that surfaced after that game.

Every time Huddersfield had a goal kick they dropped their two centre halves and one centre midfielder in to receive the ball short from their goalkeeper to then play out. How long did it take us to press them and make them kick it long? 45 minutes! Laughable. It was ****** obvious from the first time they did it. Press the three players looking to receive the ball, make the keeper kick it long and then we've got an aerial battle between Wells and Flint. Clearly advantageous to us. Honestly, absolute basics. I repeat again my knowledge from Huddersfield is from watching a bit of them on TV, yet I seemed to have a better idea of how they play then our head coach.

Earlier in the season, even when the results began to rapidly turn, I was fully prepared to accept that we were looking to play in a certain way it would take time. The play could be frustratingly ponderous and the complete absence of any semblance of a counter attack frustrated me, but I was patient. Maybe we were building something, maybe it will come together. The whole narrow thing will always frustrate fans and if you listen to a lot of fans criticising their team at the moment they say the same thing. I believed that Johnson wanted our wide men (not wingers) to come inside and almost have three number tens playing behind Abraham with the width coming from the fullbacks (in a similar way to Huddersfield). This would explain the desire to have Bryan at left back (something which I will be honest and say that at the start of the season I fully supported). However our fullbacks aren't good enough to play like that and if we're honest with ourselves all of our attacking midfielders/wide players massively flatter to deceive.

Recently however, it has been a complete mess. No positive signs. Not even the tiniest hints of a way we want to play. At Ipswich the amount of times we turned down the option to counter attack in order to have some safe possession was criminal. Now fine, I will actually stand up for a team that looks to control the balance and tempo of a game through possession when others may accuse it of being boring. However opting not to try and hit on the break in order instead for your two centre halves to pass it between themselves for a bit and then eventually launch a hopeless ball at Wilbraham is not good football. I don't consider that particularly well 'coached'.

As I said you can go through every game if you have enough time and want to torture yourselves. Fundamental basic tactical errors. Wolves were a poor team but they had two threatening wingers, did we try and nullify them? Nah, just let them roast Matthews and Bryan. It doesn't take many coaching badges or that deep knowledge of the game to say to our two wide players 'oi lads just drop in and offer some protection for a bit'. Of course the players themselves should have the leadership to do this, but I don't think anybody suggesting a change in the head coach is arguing the players are anything like blameless.

Yes our players make mistakes, but they're playing for us. What do we expect? Lets have a look at the goals we score? Probably some mistakes from the opposition.. Reading are flying high and in the away game I thought they played some lovely football. Yet at Ashton Gate, mistakes gifted us two goals? Yet they still won.

If we're waiting for a error free performance for our next win (or even to avoid defeat) then I have even less hope than I did already.

Hope the resident forum Football genius approves of my post. I'm aware that really I don't deserve to have an opinion. It's not as if I'm some outspoken critic of Johnson though, it was only after Forest that I completely came to the decision he should be sacked. 

 

 

[spudski]

9 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Your assertions is the players are at fault constantly because they are not carrying out instructions.

My assertion is this. It is Lee Johnson's scattergun tactics, tinkering and man management that are fault not the fault of 30+ players, including 17 who have been signed for Lee Johnson to manage, coach, inspire and improve.. 

No i'm not...they do carry out his Instructions. But did LJ tell Golbourne to be unaware and make a poor choice? Did LJ tell Reid to pass the ball straight into someones feet? No he didn't....and it wasn't the tactics that made them do those errors...they were purely basic errors, footballers shouldn't be making, regardless of tactics. Some of our players just aren't consistently good enough....hense the mistakes.

How would changing tactics or manager change those basic errors? Errors that happen by individuals every game. How can LT's form be down to LJ not man managing him right? Of course LT has no history of spitting his dummy. How does injuries to Gon, Smith, Magners, and Matthews have anything to do with LJ. How does FF and RoD fumbling around like amateurs have anything to do with LJ? How does a grown man like Matthews need telling that fizzy drinks will make you fat and not help your healing process.....I could go on.

[Trueredsupporter]

If he signed another thirty he would struggle to find a couple of right ones to fir his hokey cokey tactics and team selections.

his project is the emporers new clothes. its team confused by a man who lost his way when he his hokey cokey tactics and team selections v Hull, and lost a momentum he doesn't know how to get back apart from asking for more time, more money, more players for excuses after excuses.

[samo II]

9 minutes ago, chinapig said:

You make your case in an articulate and passionate way yet like most fans you seem to want to entirely exonerate players from any responsibility. So if a player makes a crass mistake it's nothing to do with him it's the tactics to blame. Presumably then Reid giving the ball away ahead of the first goal yesterday was LJ's fault.

My point being by all means criticise the coach but can we please stop giving players a get out for bad decision making or poor execution? They live a sheltered enough life as it is without being encouraged to avoid responsibility.

After all my boss may have overall responsibility but if my performance is poor I carry the can. Why should it be different for footballers?

You pick out one incidence from one game, and say I'm exonerating the full playing squad from all errors?

Did we lose every single game of the 15 we've lost in the last 20 because of this?  I don't think so.

The reason we're seeing more errors is because teams are targeting weaknesses in our side that LJ either fails to see and act against, hasn't the ability to articulate what he needs the players to do to solve the problem, or sees but has no solution for.  The Cardiff example I provided in my initial post is one; Reading at home would be another, where our midfield was losing control due to the introduction of Obika who was threatening on the wings, so LJ counters this with putting on Reid then Wilbraham, leaving us unable to do anything against Meite when introduced, and the completely opened us up.

Yes, the players are culpable for some aspects of this.  But many of these players have been successful at this level or higher in other sides; you can pin some errors on some, but you can also look back at the goals we've conceded (especially since the first international break) and the players are often losing the ball trying to play into the centre, only to be dispossessed - is that coincidence?  Possibly.  But I'm not so sure.

I'm not absolving the player from blame, but after LJ has bought them, coached them, picked a line up and sent them out - at what stage is he responsible for anything that happens?  Never?  Should we presume that as his tactics work in theory, then he is no longer responsible for results if the opponent figures them out and counters them?  

And how does this get resolved?  Shall we presume every error means the player is unfit to work under LJ, and get rid?  You pick out Bobby Reid; one of our highest goal scorers and assist makers this year must be replaced because of one error, damn all that has come before?  Shall we rid our squad of all those who make errors, forced or no?  Flint would be first on the block; shall we sell him?  Tammy missed a one-on-one at Brentford; shall we send him back to Chelsea?  

It seems strange how a squad that draws a fair degree of envy, and many of whom have proven effective at this level, can perform so badly all at once - LJ has no such pedigree at this level, but are we to assume he cannot be judged as a head coach because of errors.  And what are all these errors anyway?  I've watched a bunch of our goals conceded recently, and not sure I can see all of them - one or two clear ones, but the rest just look like we're playing crap.

Being a manager/head coach means you are responsible for the direction, mentality and effectiveness of the team.  You are judged on performance, of which results are the measure.  The results are extremely poor, so that is what is heaping pressure on LJ.  If it is errors doing for him, he can't seem to iron these out, and that is hardly a ringing endorsement, is it?

[chinapig]

25 minutes ago, samo II said:

You pick out one incidence from one game, and say I'm exonerating the full playing squad from all errors?

Did we lose every single game of the 15 we've lost in the last 20 because of this?  I don't think so.

The reason we're seeing more errors is because teams are targeting weaknesses in our side that LJ either fails to see and act against, hasn't the ability to articulate what he needs the players to do to solve the problem, or sees but has no solution for.  The Cardiff example I provided in my initial post is one; Reading at home would be another, where our midfield was losing control due to the introduction of Obika who was threatening on the wings, so LJ counters this with putting on Reid then Wilbraham, leaving us unable to do anything against Meite when introduced, and the completely opened us up.

Yes, the players are culpable for some aspects of this.  But many of these players have been successful at this level or higher in other sides; you can pin some errors on some, but you can also look back at the goals we've conceded (especially since the first international break) and the players are often losing the ball trying to play into the centre, only to be dispossessed - is that coincidence?  Possibly.  But I'm not so sure.

I'm not absolving the player from blame, but after LJ has bought them, coached them, picked a line up and sent them out - at what stage is he responsible for anything that happens?  Never?  Should we presume that as his tactics work in theory, then he is no longer responsible for results if the opponent figures them out and counters them?  

And how does this get resolved?  Shall we presume every error means the player is unfit to work under LJ, and get rid?  You pick out Bobby Reid; one of our highest goal scorers and assist makers this year must be replaced because of one error, damn all that has come before?  Shall we rid our squad of all those who make errors, forced or no?  Flint would be first on the block; shall we sell him?  Tammy missed a one-on-one at Brentford; shall we send him back to Chelsea?  

It seems strange how a squad that draws a fair degree of envy, and many of whom have proven effective at this level, can perform so badly all at once - LJ has no such pedigree at this level, but are we to assume he cannot be judged as a head coach because of errors.  And what are all these errors anyway?  I've watched a bunch of our goals conceded recently, and not sure I can see all of them - one or two clear ones, but the rest just look like we're playing crap.

Being a manager/head coach means you are responsible for the direction, mentality and effectiveness of the team.  You are judged on performance, of which results are the measure.  The results are extremely poor, so that is what is heaping pressure on LJ.  If it is errors doing for him, he can't seem to iron these out, and that is hardly a ringing endorsement, is it?

I simply chose an example to illustrate my point that bad decision making or execution of skills happen whatever tactics a coach may choose. As others have said we are paying the price for too many such mistakes and I find it hard to believe that would stop if tactics were changed.

You reiterate your view that tactics lead to players making mistakes. Perhaps on occasion that might be so - I'm not sure how that can be proved or otherwise, though it might be argued for example that someone playing out of position is more likely to make mistakes - but my point stands that players have to take responsibility for their own actions and be held to account just as coaches are.

As to tactics, I can't discern what LJ's strategy is any more, which leaves me at something of a loss.

[Cowshed]

51 minutes ago, spudski said:

No i'm not...they do carry out his Instructions. But did LJ tell Golbourne to be unaware and make a poor choice? Did LJ tell Reid to pass the ball straight into someones feet? No he didn't....and it wasn't the tactics that made them do those errors...they were purely basic errors, footballers shouldn't be making, regardless of tactics. Some of our players just aren't consistently good enough....hense the mistakes.

How would changing tactics or manager change those basic errors? Errors that happen by individuals every game. How can LT's form be down to LJ not man managing him right? Of course LT has no history of spitting his dummy. How does injuries to Gon, Smith, Magners, and Matthews have anything to do with LJ. How does FF and RoD fumbling around like amateurs have anything to do with LJ? How does a grown man like Matthews need telling that fizzy drinks will make you fat and not help your healing process.....I could go on.

I have already posted how more methodical team selection and tactics would improve results. He has continued to tinker hard and lose more.

The constant record defeats are a consequence of Lee Johnson being in charge and not possessing the acumen to Manage his costly squad, and new signings enough to field new XI's of players.

Other sides have injuries ... Its lame excuse after weaker excuse.

[spudski]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I have already posted how more methodical team selection and tactics would improve results. He has continued to tinker hard and lose more.

The constant record defeats are a consequence of Lee Johnson being in charge and not possessing the acumen to Manage his costly squad, and new signings enough to field new XI's of players.

Other sides have injuries ... Its lame excuse after weaker excuse.

Do you think he would have tinkered so much with formation or players, if we didn't have so many injured or unfit, or out of form players? Do you not think he would pick his strongest players in their best positions, if that wasn't so? He's often told us why he's played players in certain positions, because of the injuries to others. Like when we went with bryan and Little as wing backs...because Matthews, Magners and Golbourne were injured or unfit. Tomlin not playing because, of what he's even admitted himself...sometimes 60% fit. Different variations of midfield because GoN and Smith have been injured, then tried, then injured again. Reid, Bryan both below form etc. Don't mention the dire goalkeeping...of course that's LJ's fault as well.

A fit and healthy first team, and we'd have been ok, but people seem to forget that it seems.

Not being funny mate...but we aren't doing anything radically different to any other team in this division.

[samo II]

17 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I simply chose an example to illustrate my point that bad decision making or execution of skills happen whatever tactics a coach may choose. As others have said we are paying the price for too many such mistakes and I find it hard to believe that would stop if tactics were changed.

You reiterate your view that tactics lead to players making mistakes. Perhaps on occasion that might be so - I'm not sure how that can be proved or otherwise, though it might be argued for example that someone playing out of position is more likely to make mistakes - but my point stands that players have to take responsibility for their own actions and be held to account just as coaches are.

As to tactics, I can't discern what LJ's strategy is any more, which leaves me at something of a loss.

I'm not disputing that; players certainly shoulder a degree of blame when they err, and it does seem to have happened a fair amount this season.

But as I think @Olé has stated elsewhere recently (and others too, I'm sure); we have moved to playing a very ponderous and narrow style, and are set up to play through the centre and contain opposing side, and as a result are not generating a high number of good chances ourselves.  

As a result, errors that might even be common (because let's be honest; every team at this level makes them) in other side are pounced on and end up costing us, as we aren't set up in a way that allows us to respond.

I'd actually say that earlier in the season we were more effective because LJ's response to going a goal down early (as we frequently would) was to go gung-ho, and chuck on a number of attacking players, including the likes of Wilbraham - more often then not we'd see goals from crosses, second phase play off crosses, or low diagonals into the box.  Take a look at YouTube, I think that is borne out from what you'll find.

After the Cardiff match/international break, we relied more and more on play through the centre, usually involving one of Reid, Paterson, Freeman or Tomlin running at a defence, looking to play in strikers, or thread a pass - these are not high % situations, and the more we've moved towards this (for reasons I cannot explain), the more we end up caught out, and mistakes punished.

I'm not exonerating players, but I disagree that all these errors we're talking about are unforced or simply idiocy on the part of the players; they are a result of how the team are being set up to play, and I think it doesn't play to our squad's strengths, hence an increase tendency to be forced into errors.  The fact we've regularly played personnel out of position to accommodate these formations also plays a big part in that.

I don't think LJ is sure how to get the best from these players, and I also don't think we're making as many unforced errors as people would suggest - we're just getting out played and out thought.

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

Do you think he would have tinkered so much with formation or players, if we didn't have so many injured or unfit, or out of form players? Do you not think he would pick his strongest players in their best positions, if that wasn't so? He's often told us why he's played players in certain positions, because of the injuries to others. Like when we went with bryan and Little as wing backs...because Matthews, Magners and Golbourne were injured or unfit. Tomlin not playing because, of what he's even admitted himself...sometimes 60% fit. Different variations of midfield because GoN and Smith have been injured, then tried, then injured again. Reid, Bryan both below form etc. Don't mention the dire goalkeeping...of course that's LJ's fault as well.

A fit and healthy first team, and we'd have been ok, but people seem to forget that it seems.

Not being funny mate...but we aren't doing anything radically different to any other team in this division.

Injuries are par for the course. He has thirty players.  

Here is a not so radical idea. Play a settled shape, work on it ceaselessly and employ similar tactics each week when out of  possession and errors will decrease.

For somebody who regularly mentions your own coaching you continually make reams of excuses for a man who is not improving players. Talented players all appear to be regressing. That is some feat.

 

[Jack Dawe]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

No i'm not...they do carry out his Instructions. But did LJ tell Golbourne to be unaware and make a poor choice? Did LJ tell Reid to pass the ball straight into someones feet? No he didn't....and it wasn't the tactics that made them do those errors...they were purely basic errors, footballers shouldn't be making, regardless of tactics. Some of our players just aren't consistently good enough....hense the mistakes.

How would changing tactics or manager change those basic errors? Errors that happen by individuals every game. How can LT's form be down to LJ not man managing him right? Of course LT has no history of spitting his dummy. How does injuries to Gon, Smith, Magners, and Matthews have anything to do with LJ. How does FF and RoD fumbling around like amateurs have anything to do with LJ? How does a grown man like Matthews need telling that fizzy drinks will make you fat and not help your healing process.....I could go on.

All that, spud - the injuries, the fumbling, the individual errors, the fizzy drinks - are what LJ is paid to cope with, to "manage," and to still put out a competent team. His job is to "manage." It is not to go "I can't manage" and then list his excuses. 

The word manage means "succeed in surviving or in achieving something despite difficult circumstances." To "cope." But I don't see anything "difficult" in what you mention there. 

He has, after all, been given a very competitive budget to "cope" with the "difficulties" you mention, to assemble a squad capable of coping with whatever a 9 month season might throw at us, and one look at the league table tells us he is not "managing" to "cope." Not at the moment.

We are not the only club with a couple of injuries, or a fumbling goalie, or a player not refuelling properly. We are not the only club that has problems to "cope" with. Every club has challenges that requires managing. Some are managing/coping better than others. I don't see any great problems LJ has had to "cope" with, unless the player unrest happens to be true.

But we are told this is not the case, so I am struggling to see anything exceptional LJ has had to "cope" with. If he cannot "manage" with 4 injuries, individual player error, fumbling keepers and fizzy pop, what is he doing in charge of a Championship football club first team?

We were told he is an "in demand" coach, what happened to coaching players and ironing out the errors?

My suspicion is that the players have seen through LJ's spiel and have little or decreasing confidence and belief in him, and that lack of confidence is evident on the pitch, and manifests itself in the many individual errors you mention, and too many laboured performances and a lack of spark about our play.

 

But you are right, there is still time for us to finish midtable. With the players we have, a competent coach ought to be able to "manage" that. 

 

[ScottishRed]

1 minute ago, Jack Dawe said:

All that, spud - the injuries, the fumbling, the individual errors, the fizzy drinks - are what LJ is paid to cope with, to "manage," and to still put out a competent team. His job is to "manage." It is not to go "I can't manage" and then list his excuses. 

The word manage means "succeed in surviving or in achieving something despite difficult circumstances." To "cope." But I don't see anything "difficult" in what you mention there. 

He has, after all, been given a very competitive budget to "cope" with the "difficulties" you mention, to assemble a squad capable of coping with whatever a 9 month season might throw at us, and one look at the league table tells us he is not "managing" to "cope." Not at the moment.

We are not the only club with a couple of injuries, or a fumbling goalie, or a player not refuelling properly. We are not the only club that has problems to "cope" with. Every club has challenges that requires managing. Some are managing/coping better than others. I don't see any great problems LJ has had to "cope" with, unless the player unrest happens to be true.

But we are told this is not the case, so I am struggling to see anything exceptional LJ has had to "cope" with. If he cannot "manage" with 4 injuries, individual player error, fumbling keepers and fizzy pop, what is he doing in charge of a Championship football club first team?

We were told he is an "in demand" coach, what happened to coaching players and ironing out the errors?

My suspicion is that the players have seen through LJ's spiel and have little or decreasing confidence and belief in him, and that lack of confidence is evident on the pitch, and manifests itself in the many individual errors you mention, and too many laboured performances and a lack of spark about our play.

 

But you are right, there is still time for us to finish midtable. With the players we have, a competent coach ought to be able to "manage" that. 

 

Good post.

[CityCiderEd]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

Not being funny mate...but we aren't doing anything radically different to any other team in this division.

The only thing radically different is no bloody points.......

[spudski]

26 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Injuries are par for the course. He has thirty players.  

Here is a not so radical idea. Play a settled shape, work on it ceaselessly and employ similar tactics each week when out of  possession and errors will decrease.

For somebody who regularly mentions your own coaching you continually make reams of excuses for a man who is not improving players. Talented players all appear to be regressing. That is some feat.

 

For somebody who talks about coaching so eloquently most occasions, I'm frustrated at how you fail to ignore how unsettling the injuries to key players has been, and that saying 'thirty players'...makes them sound all equal in experience and ability.

Plus find me topics where I have mentioned my coaching continually...Don't make things up.

You fail to recognise why we have played a settled shape. You just think that if a player gets injured, then we can fill that spot with a similar experienced and player. For example...Matthews injured...so we play Little...he isn't the same ability...he's injured, we've tried Moore, not at same standard yet, now we are down to a rookie in Vyner.

Same for GoN and Smith...our two most experienced DM.

I despair sometimes at how some people just see numbers and think it's a game played on a computer.

You should...imo, know better than this.

If all these players who you think have regressed, turn this season around under LJ, and we start winning, are you the LJ haters going to say the guy deserves credit for turning it round? If you do...you'd all be wrong as well.

Why can't you see, that we are playing and doing pretty much everything the same as when we were winning? Because we are. Tell me what we are doing so drastically different now, to then?

You actually think LJ is going to improve players like Tomlin, GoN, Matthews, FF, Golbourne etc?

The players that will improve are the likes of Moore, Brownhill, Odowda etc.

I'm not saying LJ is perfect, far from it. But I'm sick of people just blaming him....when you can physically see with your own eyes, certain players bollocking it up week in, week out, because of their mistakes...not his.

[NickJ]

6 hours ago, spudski said:

Yes...Individual errors costing us goals. Yes...1 win in 3 months, Just because you or some fans don't understand the tactics, it doesn't mean there aren't any ;-), chopping and changing out of necessity, because of injuries and out of form players or unfit, had arguments about football...YES. 'People' haven't written off Wednesday, only folk who want it to be written off so that LJ gets sacked. I disagree that it was a toothless display against a Burnley side with a great home record. Of course I watch the match's...however, there are a lot on here who make negative comments, don't go regularly. They, are of course entitled to their opinion of course....whether taken seriously, is another thing.

 

 

5 hours ago, spudski said:

And this where I can't take your comment seriously...because I can clearly see what the players are being asked to do. They keep shape well...however it appears tactics mean the likes of Golbourne dilly dallying...and Reid making a crap pass into a player. People read that as 'not understanding tactics' or 'don't understand what is being asked of them'....it's not...it individual errors, often basic footballing, not tactics.

Yes some make good points...others have no idea, often sighting that we play with no width, when Bryan and Little don't actually leave the touchline. Plus numerous other hypocritical comments about LJ doing things, the exact same people were asking him to do when he took over from SC.Sorry mate...I understand peoples frustrations, but there are some serious case's of dummy throwing going on, and vitriolic posts aimed to just cause unrest, argument or just plain vindictive. This place has become toxic, and some decent people have changed their personalities greatly...often in the past diligent and thoughtful, but now just full of throw away 'Sun like sensationalist' throw comments.

This is not a good place to debate anymore.

 

5 hours ago, spudski said:

I'm disagreeing with the results mate...they are a fact. But people keep sighting that it's the tactics that are a problem. Then sight that players don't understand them. That's all 'theory and made up bullshit'. They don't give reasons as to why tactics have conceded a goal...or if they talk about tactics, it often contradicts to what is actually happening on the pitch.

No one actually offers a serious solution, and answer...apart from...'sack the manager'.

Tell you what, I'll say it...sack the manager...lets get someone else in. Lets see him fail too. And guess what... the fans will then say it's the players fault, or SL's.

It just goes round and round...finger pointing.

 

4 hours ago, spudski said:

No i'm not...they do carry out his Instructions. But did LJ tell Golbourne to be unaware and make a poor choice? Did LJ tell Reid to pass the ball straight into someones feet? No he didn't....and it wasn't the tactics that made them do those errors...they were purely basic errors, footballers shouldn't be making, regardless of tactics. Some of our players just aren't consistently good enough....hense the mistakes.

How would changing tactics or manager change those basic errors? Errors that happen by individuals every game. How can LT's form be down to LJ not man managing him right? Of course LT has no history of spitting his dummy. How does injuries to Gon, Smith, Magners, and Matthews have anything to do with LJ. How does FF and RoD fumbling around like amateurs have anything to do with LJ? How does a grown man like Matthews need telling that fizzy drinks will make you fat and not help your healing process.....I could go on.

 

2 hours ago, spudski said:

Do you think he would have tinkered so much with formation or players, if we didn't have so many injured or unfit, or out of form players? Do you not think he would pick his strongest players in their best positions, if that wasn't so? He's often told us why he's played players in certain positions, because of the injuries to others. Like when we went with bryan and Little as wing backs...because Matthews, Magners and Golbourne were injured or unfit. Tomlin not playing because, of what he's even admitted himself...sometimes 60% fit. Different variations of midfield because GoN and Smith have been injured, then tried, then injured again. Reid, Bryan both below form etc. Don't mention the dire goalkeeping...of course that's LJ's fault as well.

A fit and healthy first team, and we'd have been ok, but people seem to forget that it seems.

Not being funny mate...but we aren't doing anything radically different to any other team in this division.

I have seen post after post after post after post of yours where you blame the fact that, having spent £15m on 17 players, we are one off relegation due to individual mistakes.

Do you not realise how unlikely that is, other than the fact that either:

a) the players the manager has selected are crap? or

b) the manager is useless?

[spudski]

41 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

All that, spud - the injuries, the fumbling, the individual errors, the fizzy drinks - are what LJ is paid to cope with, to "manage," and to still put out a competent team. His job is to "manage." It is not to go "I can't manage" and then list his excuses. 

The word manage means "succeed in surviving or in achieving something despite difficult circumstances." To "cope." But I don't see anything "difficult" in what you mention there. 

He has, after all, been given a very competitive budget to "cope" with the "difficulties" you mention, to assemble a squad capable of coping with whatever a 9 month season might throw at us, and one look at the league table tells us he is not "managing" to "cope." Not at the moment.

We are not the only club with a couple of injuries, or a fumbling goalie, or a player not refuelling properly. We are not the only club that has problems to "cope" with. Every club has challenges that requires managing. Some are managing/coping better than others. I don't see any great problems LJ has had to "cope" with, unless the player unrest happens to be true.

But we are told this is not the case, so I am struggling to see anything exceptional LJ has had to "cope" with. If he cannot "manage" with 4 injuries, individual player error, fumbling keepers and fizzy pop, what is he doing in charge of a Championship football club first team?

We were told he is an "in demand" coach, what happened to coaching players and ironing out the errors?

My suspicion is that the players have seen through LJ's spiel and have little or decreasing confidence and belief in him, and that lack of confidence is evident on the pitch, and manifests itself in the many individual errors you mention, and too many laboured performances and a lack of spark about our play.

 

But you are right, there is still time for us to finish midtable. With the players we have, a competent coach ought to be able to "manage" that. 

 

And that's why I think he will turn it around...I want him to be tested and given that chance. Granted, I still don't fancy our chances, regardless of what manager we have with only Vyner fit at RB and an out of form golbourne and Bryan at LB.

If we are floundering in the relegation zone with say 5/6 games left, then I'd suggest we found another coach to take over.

[spudski]

3 minutes ago, NickJ said:

 

 

 

 

I have seen post after post after post after post of yours where you blame the fact that, having spent £15m on 17 players, we are one off relegation due to individual mistakes.

Do you not realise how unlikely that is, other than the fact that either:

a) the players the manager has selected are crap? or

b) the manager is useless?

£15m on 17 players in this league is peanuts.

[Ivorguy]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

£15m on 17 players in this league is peanuts.

Other teams above us have spent less

However if the argument is we should have spent more then if SL was only owner of The City then he would have the money available he has spent on other parts of BS, especially the rugby

[Jack Dawe]

10 minutes ago, spudski said:

And that's why I think he will turn it around...I want him to be tested and given that chance. Granted, I still don't fancy our chances, regardless of what manager we have with only Vyner fit at RB and an out of form golbourne and Bryan at LB.

If we are floundering in the relegation zone with say 5/6 games left, then I'd suggest we found another coach to take over.

No wonder you go skiing. You're a downhill, white-knuckle-ride adrenalin junkie who wants this to "go to the wire." To see how LJ "copes"! 

[CityCiderEd]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

For somebody who talks about coaching so eloquently most occasions, I'm frustrated at how you fail to ignore how unsettling the injuries to key players has been, and that saying 'thirty players'...makes them sound all equal in experience and ability.

Plus find me topics where I have mentioned my coaching continually...Don't make things up.

You fail to recognise why we have played a settled shape. You just think that if a player gets injured, then we can fill that spot with a similar experienced and player. For example...Matthews injured...so we play Little...he isn't the same ability...he's injured, we've tried Moore, not at same standard yet, now we are down to a rookie in Vyner.

Same for GoN and Smith...our two most experienced DM.

I despair sometimes at how some people just see numbers and think it's a game played on a computer.

You should...imo, know better than this.

If all these players who you think have regressed, turn this season around under LJ, and we start winning, are you the LJ haters going to say the guy deserves credit for turning it round? If you do...you'd all be wrong as well.

Why can't you see, that we are playing and doing pretty much everything the same as when we were winning? Because we are. Tell me what we are doing so drastically different now, to then?

You actually think LJ is going to improve players like Tomlin, GoN, Matthews, FF, Golbourne etc?

The players that will improve are the likes of Moore, Brownhill, Odowda etc.

I'm not saying LJ is perfect, far from it. But I'm sick of people just blaming him....when you can physically see with your own eyes, certain players bollocking it up week in, week out, because of their mistakes...not his.

Sorry mate but to say a manager can't improve good players is wrong.A prime example is Pottechino at Spurs and previously Saints.He improved players and tactics at both clubs massively just ask the fans or read their forums about what he achieved and in Saints case turned them into a top 8 side. 

[GrahamC]

8 minutes ago, spudski said:

And that's why I think he will turn it around...I want him to be tested and given that chance. Granted, I still don't fancy our chances, regardless of what manager we have with only Vyner fit at RB and an out of form golbourne and Bryan at LB.

If we are floundering in the relegation zone with say 5/6 games left, then I'd suggest we found another coach to take over.

Absolutely incredible.

You have posted excuse after excuse for LJ on this thread.

However our current form is a country mile worse even than that of those Championship giants Rotherham (who don't even have a permanent manager, FFS) and Burton Albion (with their 4000 home gates and minuscule budget), how on earth can that be defended?

Johnson has bought in players like Engvall for close to £2m and Moore for £1.5m yet never picks one of them and loans the other out (that sort of rank incompetence is why we are left with "only Vyner" fit at RB, by the way).

[Tears in rain]

6 hours ago, samo II said:

If he wants to play 352 he should know he needs quality wing backs; half a season playing 352 under Cotts with EXACTLY the same wide players told us we didn't have the personnel for it, so why a season later are we reverting to it when all we have available are the same two wide men?

This was what got me a few weeks back! I couldn't work out why he believed that would be his saviour. It was obvious it wasn't going to work as SC found out last season and LJ should've know this as well.

I get he was dealeraye for something to change the fortunes of the club though 

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

Other teams above us have spent less

However if the argument is we should have spent more then if SL was only owner of The City then he would have the money available he has spent on other parts of BS, especially the rugby

I think we've done excellent business fella...haven't got a problem with what SL has spent. We've still got nearly half a season left. I'll judge LJ towards the end of the season. If we end up mid table ish, some people are going to look really stupid on here. If SL gives him a chance to turn it round and he fails, then SL will be right to sack him. But right now...no.

 

4 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

No wonder you go skiing. You're a downhill, white-knuckle-ride adrenalin junkie who wants this to "go to the wire." To see how LJ "copes"! 

I'd rather we did that, than not find out. He maybe a good manager in the making. Even some of the greats have had awful periods at Clubs.

 

4 minutes ago, CityCiderEd said:

Sorry mate but to say a manager can't improve good players is wrong.A prime example is Pottechino at Spurs and previously Saints.He improved players and tactics at both clubs massively just ask the fans or read their forums about what he achieved and in Saints case turned them into a top 8 side. 

I haven't said that...I mentioned the names of players, who I feel won't improve their ability, even under any manager. Those I mentioned have peaked.

1 minute ago, GrahamC said:

Absolutely incredible.

You have posted excuse after excuse for LJ on this thread.

However our current form is a country mile worse even than that of those Championship giants Rotherham (who don't even have a permanent manager, FFS) and Burton Albion (with their 4000 home gates and minuscule budget), how on earth can that be defended?

Johnson has bought in players like Engvall for close to £2m and Moore for £1.5m yet never picks one of them and loans the other out (that sort of rank incompetence is why we are left with "only Vyner" fit at RB, by the way).

Seriously fella? How many RB's do you want at the beginning of the season? He has the opportunity to buy players like Engval and Moore at good prices, for the future, but thinks to himself, I know, screw that, I'm going to need 5 RB's this season FFS

That's how we are rolling these days...buying players cheaper, that will get better and grow in value. Any manager that works for SL has this blue print to work with.

If you've got a problem, have it out with SL, not me.

Right last words for the night...it's like a torrent on here...packs of haters coming at the one bloke who dares to stand up for LJ. Too much for one person.

I bid you goodnight fellow reds.

[Inactive user]

8 hours ago, chinapig said:

Chances are sacking LJ will not deliver the outcome people want I fear.

I think you almost certainly correct.

[cityironman]

9 minutes ago, Rednwhiterob said:

I think you almost certainly correct.

Its impossible, on current form, to get anybody that could do any worse unless they manage to lose every game by more than the odd goal!!

You never know, we might even win the odd game!!

[Cowshed]

54 minutes ago, spudski said:

For somebody who talks about coaching so eloquently most occasions, I'm frustrated at how you fail to ignore how unsettling the injuries to key players has been, and that saying 'thirty players'...makes them sound all equal in experience and ability.

Plus find me topics where I have mentioned my coaching continually...Don't make things up.

You fail to recognise why we have played a settled shape. You just think that if a player gets injured, then we can fill that spot with a similar experienced and player. For example...Matthews injured...so we play Little...he isn't the same ability...he's injured, we've tried Moore, not at same standard yet, now we are down to a rookie in Vyner.

Same for GoN and Smith...our two most experienced DM.

I despair sometimes at how some people just see numbers and think it's a game played on a computer.

You should...imo, know better than this.

If all these players who you think have regressed, turn this season around under LJ, and we start winning, are you the LJ haters going to say the guy deserves credit for turning it round? If you do...you'd all be wrong as well.

Why can't you see, that we are playing and doing pretty much everything the same as when we were winning? Because we are. Tell me what we are doing so drastically different now, to then?

You actually think LJ is going to improve players like Tomlin, GoN, Matthews, FF, Golbourne etc?

The players that will improve are the likes of Moore, Brownhill, Odowda etc.

I'm not saying LJ is perfect, far from it. But I'm sick of people just blaming him....when you can physically see with your own eyes, certain players bollocking it up week in, week out, because of their mistakes...not his.

 

50 minutes ago, NickJ said:

 

 

 

 

I have seen post after post after post after post of yours where you blame the fact that, having spent £15m on 17 players, we are one off relegation due to individual mistakes.

Do you not realise how unlikely that is, other than the fact that either:

a) the players the manager has selected are crap? or

b) the manager is useless?

I think the answers are above Spudski. Mr Johnson is not the outstanding skilled individual Mr Ashton describes.

A team with missing players due to  injuries should be able to hold higher defensive lines. as they did earlier in the season. Professional teams should be able to narrow down, hold two lines, know what their triggers are. The squad should be versed in how they play in and out of possession. I will stick with a statement I have made before - I have seen youth teams able to do what Lee Johnsons squad of millions fail to do at times. 

You actually think LJ is going to improve players like Tomlin, GoN, Matthews, FF, Golbourne etc? ... Technically no. Improve into a team shape. His team shape and ideas? Yes 100%.  

I will hold fast with my view that Mr Johnson is not improving players, the reverse is happening to talented players, and he should be the be one taking full responsibility

Hater? Silly.

[Unan]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

For somebody who talks about coaching so eloquently most occasions, I'm frustrated at how you fail to ignore how unsettling the injuries to key players has been, and that saying 'thirty players'...makes them sound all equal in experience and ability.

Plus find me topics where I have mentioned my coaching continually...Don't make things up.

You fail to recognise why we have played a settled shape. You just think that if a player gets injured, then we can fill that spot with a similar experienced and player. For example...Matthews injured...so we play Little...he isn't the same ability...he's injured, we've tried Moore, not at same standard yet, now we are down to a rookie in Vyner.

Same for GoN and Smith...our two most experienced DM.

I despair sometimes at how some people just see numbers and think it's a game played on a computer.

You should...imo, know better than this.

If all these players who you think have regressed, turn this season around under LJ, and we start winning, are you the LJ haters going to say the guy deserves credit for turning it round? If you do...you'd all be wrong as well.

Why can't you see, that we are playing and doing pretty much everything the same as when we were winning? Because we are. Tell me what we are doing so drastically different now, to then?

You actually think LJ is going to improve players like Tomlin, GoN, Matthews, FF, Golbourne etc?

The players that will improve are the likes of Moore, Brownhill, Odowda etc.

I'm not saying LJ is perfect, far from it. But I'm sick of people just blaming him....when you can physically see with your own eyes, certain players bollocking it up week in, week out, because of their mistakes...not his.

I agree with your entire post, however, LJ is paid (a lot) to manage the team and to win. So, whatever the circumstances, it's his 'problem' and he has to sort it himself. The buck stops with him.

[Guest]

'The argument against sacking'?

'It's the tactics', 'He's playing player's out of position', 'He's a midget', 'He doesn't know his best team', 'He's lost the dressing room', 'Worst losing streak in history', etc.
These are all stock answers for any fan who is not happy about their teams performance - it's the obvious, the knee jerk and the flapper response. In difficult positions, it's hard to keep a cool head when the 'easy' answer is to 'sack him'.

I'm not happy about our current predicament and I've left some of our games incensed, especially when we seem to have just capitulated with no more than a whimper. It looks like the team just don't have the savvyness to close games down, keep a cool head etc. It seems to be a lack of maturity. This tends to indicate a lack of leadership on the pitch. Fair enough, LJ is the manager and chooses the captain, but it is also for the team to sort it out as well - LJ is not there to wipe the teams arse.

I've said this numerous times and I'll repeat (no doubt someone will come out with the stock phrase about stupidity, not realising that we've sacked numerous managers with no real improvement in City's standing - yes, a temporary fix but the whole process begins again): We are not getting caned and we are not in the relegation zone - I don't believe the same can be said about the sackings in the past e.g. SC had a GD of -23 I believe when he got the sack and was in the relegation zone.

There is the element of 'Je ne sais quoi' about our losing form at the moment and it isn't as easy as the 'FIFA manager types' would have us believe. Let us be in no doubt, LJ is on very thin ice (when the board says 'We support the manager', in the past this has been an indicator that the sack is around the corner) and I should imagine that if 3 points don't materialise soon, unfortunately he might go.

Until that time, for me, this is a matter of supporting my team and the manager - cue the usual inane comments.

[Portland Bill]

5 hours ago, spudski said:

Do you think he would have tinkered so much with formation or players, if we didn't have so many injured or unfit, or out of form players? Do you not think he would pick his strongest players in their best positions, if that wasn't so? He's often told us why he's played players in certain positions, because of the injuries to others. Like when we went with bryan and Little as wing backs...because Matthews, Magners and Golbourne were injured or unfit. Tomlin not playing because, of what he's even admitted himself...sometimes 60% fit. Different variations of midfield because GoN and Smith have been injured, then tried, then injured again. Reid, Bryan both below form etc. Don't mention the dire goalkeeping...of course that's LJ's fault as well.

A fit and healthy first team, and we'd have been ok, but people seem to forget that it seems.

Not being funny mate...but we aren't doing anything radically different to any other team in this division.

Re your very last sentence.  Yes we are. with respect, I thought LJ was the only one who couldn't see it!  

We don't play with any width.

In previous posts you talk about it not being LJ's fault that players give the ball away. Partly true, but the way LJ sets the team up is mainly to blame for this. The players haven't started giving the ball away more often just by chance, it's how they are being told to play, the shape we play, and the general tactics LJ wants them to use, the narrowness.

 Let me explain, I played in a central midfield role for 15 years. Players who play in that position automatically look wide when they get the ball, it's your natural outlet, your looking to keep the ball and at the same time give it to someone who will usually have a little more time on the ball, someone who naturally has more space than your fellow central players. Your also looking out wide to see if you can play balls in behind a full back, or inside the full back. Having at least one wide man gives the whole team an extra option, one we haven't had for the last 3-4 months.

Our midfielders/ full backs this season have none of these options, they have to play everything centrally into a congested area, they are being forced to try and play balls through the eye of a needle into areas where the opposition are strong. It's no wonder that balls are going slightly astray or being cut out, mainly because the opposition know that's the only area  our players have to pass the ball.

The opposition are strong in this area, but not by coincidence, far from it, they overload this area because their coaching staff know exactly how we play week in week out. Every scouting report on us must read the same, " defend narrow and press the central midfield area, width is not a problem, they don't use that part of the pitch"

I can't say it enough times, we are predictable, every other manager in this league knows how we play, and have done for months. 

 

 

[chinapig]

5 hours ago, cityironman said:

Its impossible, on current form, to get anybody that could do any worse unless they manage to lose every game by more than the odd goal!!

You never know, we might even win the odd game!!

You may be right but my point was that those who continually crave a 'big name' may be disappointed to say the least.