The argument against sacking

[screech]

41 minutes ago, spudski said:

Yes...Individual errors costing us goals. Yes...1 win in 3 months, Just because you or some fans don't understand the tactics, it doesn't mean there aren't any ;-), chopping and changing out of necessity, because of injuries and out of form players or unfit, had arguments about football...YES. 'People' haven't written off Wednesday, only folk who want it to be written off so that LJ gets sacked. I disagree that it was a toothless display against a Burnley side with a great home record. Of course I watch the match's...however, there are a lot on here who make negative comments, don't go regularly. They, are of course entitled to their opinion of course....whether taken seriously, is another thing.

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, samo II said:

About the bold bit; maybe I'm an idiot when it comes to these tactics you speak of, but like to think I can read a result.  I'm going to just pay out our last twenty for you;

LLWLDLLLWLLLLLLDLWLL

Put simply; that is 15 Losses, 2 draws, 3 wins (included the cup games against Hull, Burnley and Fleetwood; actually missed the Hull game when I did this before, so we're even worse over the last 20 than I previously stated).

Nothing defends that, Spud.  Nothing.  It's completely rubbish form stretching back over the best part of four months - essentially half a season.  LJ is living off a very decent opening month; the rest?  Garbage.  

And as for the underlined bit; some of the changes have been due to injury or availability - no doubt.  But that hasn't always been the case, and certainly hasn't explained the propensity to switch systems mid-game, leading to us surrendering decent positions (both Reading and Cardiff are prime examples).  It's not like we've have injuries to key players constantly; LJ has altered winning sides, losing side, drawing sides - he just seems to like to change things, and it clearly hasn't worked (see the row of letters above for proof).

Ignoring how rude and patronising your post was to plenty of fans who make a point of being civil and assessing the situation with a level-head, it also ignores the most important metric available in football - results.  We might play like Barca-bloody-lona, but if we can't get results; what's the bloody point?

I'm disagreeing with the results mate...they are a fact. But people keep sighting that it's the tactics that are a problem. Then sight that players don't understand them. That's all 'theory and made up bullshit'. They don't give reasons as to why tactics have conceded a goal...or if they talk about tactics, it often contradicts to what is actually happening on the pitch.

No one actually offers a serious solution, and answer...apart from...'sack the manager'.

Tell you what, I'll say it...sack the manager...lets get someone else in. Lets see him fail too. And guess what... the fans will then say it's the players fault, or SL's.

It just goes round and round...finger pointing.

[EnclosureSurge]

13 minutes ago, samo II said:

It's a fair point, but equally; when we play with wide midfielders (either 442 or 4231) LJ puts left footers on the right, and right footers on the left.

Why?

It seems completely counter-intuitive, and is telling  our best chance yesterday came from a cross... from a right back.  

 

Agree whole-heartedly. In recent years there has been a tactical 'development' (if, indeed, it is a forward development, or, in fact, a tactic?) to put right-footed players on the left and vice versa...with the intent to be able to cut in and shoot, play one-twos, move the full-back on to his/her weaker foot. Someone, somewhere started this, prob in the Prem, and everyone copies it. It is de rigueur to do so. Even when it is ineffective (as with us). (Obv it happened in previous eras of football, too - I'm sure Walshy would spend a bit of time on the right wing should a full-back have the temerity to not fall for his shuffle, but this was for a spell during one game at a time, not for weeks on end).

Perversely in recent weeks some of the best football (current bad boy) Freeman played was back on the left - he put in two splendid crosses from in front of the away fans in a couple of games around Christmas (they all merge in to one these games, no idea which ones it was specifically). But, come the next game he trotted back out to the right, down his cul-de-sac, as playing a left-footed player on the left was something we only did with a midfielder/wide player as an alternative to it not working on the other side (a regular occurrence).

This 'tactical' point seems to be something with Johnson - he's had so much buzz about him being up-and-coming, next generation, young and full of new ideas that all these ideas (like playing players in the wrong places) are just too much. He's forgotten the basics, in my opinion, and placed too much emphasis on new-fangled dronery.

[pillred]

11 minutes ago, spudski said:

I'm disagreeing with the results mate...they are a fact. But people keep sighting that it's the tactics that are a problem. Then sight that players don't understand them. That's all 'theory and made up bullshit'. They don't give reasons as to why tactics have conceded a goal...or if they talk about tactics, it often contradicts to what is actually happening on the pitch.

No one actually offers a serious solution, and answer...apart from...'sack the manager'.

Tell you what, I'll say it...sack the manager...lets get someone else in. Lets see him fail too. And guess what... the fans will then say it's the players fault, or SL's.

It just goes round and round...finger pointing.

how do you know a new manager would fail?

[Red Army 75]

And how do we know the players are playing for Johnson. Because IF he has lost the dressing room. He's ****** . It's not all about tactics it's about personality as well 

[samo II]

Just now, spudski said:

I'm disagreeing with the results mate...they are a fact. But people keep sighting that it's the tactics that are a problem. Then sight that players don't understand them. That's all 'theory and made up bullshit'. They don't give reasons as to why tactics have conceded a goal...or if they talk about tactics, it often contradicts to what is actually happening on the pitch.

No one actually offers a serious solution, and answer...apart from...'sack the manager'.

Tell you what, I'll say it...sack the manager...lets get someone else in. Lets see him fail too. And guess what... the fans will then say it's the players fault, or SL's.

It just goes round and round...finger pointing.

So to get this straight; your position seems to be that our tactics and selections are fine, but it is simply individual mistakes that are costing us - is that correct?

You're suggestion is that four months of bad results are purely down to errors?  Or is there anything else in there?  Nothing that comes from the manager and coaching staff has any influence?  Are you honestly of the sincere belief that we'd be getting significantly better results purely if we got rid of the errors?

I guess we'll simply have to disagree.  

Personally, I think the low quality of the chances we generate and our lack of a settled defence is more responsible for both our inability to score and propensity to concede from basic defensive situations, and as such our results.  I also think LJ doesn't read the game as well as other managers; against Cardiff he responded to them deploying wingers by bringing on Wilbraham, which allowed Little in particular to get isolated and be forced into... mistakes.

These things do not exist in isolation; the mistakes we see are frequently 'forced' on the team - we're not spannering in own goals left. right and centre; we're being out played.

And I honestly think the bloody minded determination to try and play through the middle has massively reduced out effectiveness in front of goal; look back to the run of decent results early season - we scored goals from balls slung into the box from wide positions, or knockdowns and second balls via packing the box with players - this was also often the result of already being behind, and being forced to be cavalier by throwing on forwards; in context, this should have been a warning sign.

It is also telling that of the 18 goals we've scored in the last 20 games, six are shared equally between Wilbraham and Tomlin - the latter is apparently too ill and unfit to make the squad, while the latter has been limited to desperation cameos, and says a lot he's getting goals while doing this, as we generate such crap opportunities otherwise.

You can tell me I don't know what I'm talking about; that's fine.  But I believe that the opposite of what you see as being the case is true; another coach could very well correct some of the clear issues we have, and I think they are tactical - LJ hasn't improved the players he inherited, nor found a way to use those he's bought.  A fresh perspective can sometimes be exactly what is needed in a slump like this. 

I hope he can turn it around, but nothing I've seen with my own eyes sees it as likely.  I'm no kneejerk "LJ Out" keyboard warrior; I'm a fan who is watching his team spiral into a hole we shouldn't be stuck in - and I believe the head coach is where the problem lies.

[Portland Bill]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Yes...Individual errors costing us goals. Yes...1 win in 3 months, Just because you or some fans don't understand the tactics, it doesn't mean there aren't any ;-), chopping and changing out of necessity, because of injuries and out of form players or unfit, had arguments about football...YES. 'People' haven't written off Wednesday, only folk who want it to be written off so that LJ gets sacked. I disagree that it was a toothless display against a Burnley side with a great home record. Of course I watch the match's...however, there are a lot on here who make negative comments, don't go regularly. They, are of course entitled to their opinion of course....whether taken seriously, is another thing.

 

Burnley made 8 CHANGES yesterday, they also had to change their tactics, it wasn't hard for them though was it!. They are a side that has spent the majority of this season sitting in and counter attacking. Often having just 30% ( or less)  of possession. Yesterday they had 57%, double what they had in their previous game. 

Our manager is tactically out of his depth in this league and results are all the proof needed. Every other coach/manager knows how we play. There's not many ways you can set up as a 'narrow' team, a shape that doesn't work in this league. again, results are proof.

I and many more on this forum totally understand tactics, the reality for you is that the lack of LJ being able to change his tactics before ( and during) games is the reason we are getting shafted every week. His tactical ideology is wrong, we need width, without it we will go down. Either he changes tactically, or the manager changes.

 

 

[WhistleHappy]

33 minutes ago, screech said:

On Days Like These ....

We just need someone who can.... BLOW THE BLOODY DOORS OFF!!! 

Get a bloody move on ....& ...

......Get The Wheels In Line .

 

[chinapig]

22 minutes ago, samo II said:

So to get this straight; your position seems to be that our tactics and selections are fine, but it is simply individual mistakes that are costing us - is that correct?

You're suggestion is that four months of bad results are purely down to errors?  Or is there anything else in there?  Nothing that comes from the manager and coaching staff has any influence?  Are you honestly of the sincere belief that we'd be getting significantly better results purely if we got rid of the errors?

I guess we'll simply have to disagree.  

Personally, I think the low quality of the chances we generate and our lack of a settled defence is more responsible for both our inability to score and propensity to concede from basic defensive situations, and as such our results.  I also think LJ doesn't read the game as well as other managers; against Cardiff he responded to them deploying wingers by bringing on Wilbraham, which allowed Little in particular to get isolated and be forced into... mistakes.

These things do not exist in isolation; the mistakes we see are frequently 'forced' on the team - we're not spannering in own goals left. right and centre; we're being out played.

And I honestly think the bloody minded determination to try and play through the middle has massively reduced out effectiveness in front of goal; look back to the run of decent results early season - we scored goals from balls slung into the box from wide positions, or knockdowns and second balls via packing the box with players - this was also often the result of already being behind, and being forced to be cavalier by throwing on forwards; in context, this should have been a warning sign.

It is also telling that of the 18 goals we've scored in the last 20 games, six are shared equally between Wilbraham and Tomlin - the latter is apparently too ill and unfit to make the squad, while the latter has been limited to desperation cameos, and says a lot he's getting goals while doing this, as we generate such crap opportunities otherwise.

You can tell me I don't know what I'm talking about; that's fine.  But I believe that the opposite of what you see as being the case is true; another coach could very well correct some of the clear issues we have, and I think they are tactical - LJ hasn't improved the players he inherited, nor found a way to use those he's bought.  A fresh perspective can sometimes be exactly what is needed in a slump like this. 

I hope he can turn it around, but nothing I've seen with my own eyes sees it as likely.  I'm no kneejerk "LJ Out" keyboard warrior; I'm a fan who is watching his team spiral into a hole we shouldn't be stuck in - and I believe the head coach is where the problem lies.

You make your case in an articulate and passionate way yet like most fans you seem to want to entirely exonerate players from any responsibility. So if a player makes a crass mistake it's nothing to do with him it's the tactics to blame. Presumably then Reid giving the ball away ahead of the first goal yesterday was LJ's fault.

My point being by all means criticise the coach but can we please stop giving players a get out for bad decision making or poor execution? They live a sheltered enough life as it is without being encouraged to avoid responsibility.

After all my boss may have overall responsibility but if my performance is poor I carry the can. Why should it be different for footballers?

[chinapig]

37 minutes ago, samo II said:

So to get this straight; your position seems to be that our tactics and selections are fine, but it is simply individual mistakes that are costing us - is that correct?

You're suggestion is that four months of bad results are purely down to errors?  Or is there anything else in there?  Nothing that comes from the manager and coaching staff has any influence?  Are you honestly of the sincere belief that we'd be getting significantly better results purely if we got rid of the errors?

I guess we'll simply have to disagree.  

Personally, I think the low quality of the chances we generate and our lack of a settled defence is more responsible for both our inability to score and propensity to concede from basic defensive situations, and as such our results.  I also think LJ doesn't read the game as well as other managers; against Cardiff he responded to them deploying wingers by bringing on Wilbraham, which allowed Little in particular to get isolated and be forced into... mistakes.

These things do not exist in isolation; the mistakes we see are frequently 'forced' on the team - we're not spannering in own goals left. right and centre; we're being out played.

And I honestly think the bloody minded determination to try and play through the middle has massively reduced out effectiveness in front of goal; look back to the run of decent results early season - we scored goals from balls slung into the box from wide positions, or knockdowns and second balls via packing the box with players - this was also often the result of already being behind, and being forced to be cavalier by throwing on forwards; in context, this should have been a warning sign.

It is also telling that of the 18 goals we've scored in the last 20 games, six are shared equally between Wilbraham and Tomlin - the latter is apparently too ill and unfit to make the squad, while the latter has been limited to desperation cameos, and says a lot he's getting goals while doing this, as we generate such crap opportunities otherwise.

You can tell me I don't know what I'm talking about; that's fine.  But I believe that the opposite of what you see as being the case is true; another coach could very well correct some of the clear issues we have, and I think they are tactical - LJ hasn't improved the players he inherited, nor found a way to use those he's bought.  A fresh perspective can sometimes be exactly what is needed in a slump like this. 

I hope he can turn it around, but nothing I've seen with my own eyes sees it as likely.  I'm no kneejerk "LJ Out" keyboard warrior; I'm a fan who is watching his team spiral into a hole we shouldn't be stuck in - and I believe the head coach is where the problem lies.

You make your case in an articulate and passionate way yet like most fans you seem to want to entirely exonerate players from any responsibility. So if a player makes a crass mistake it's nothing to do with him it's the tactics to blame. Presumably then Reid giving the ball away ahead of the first goal yesterday was LJ's fault.

My point being by all means criticise the coach but can we please stop giving players a get out for bad decision making or poor execution? They live a sheltered enough life as it is without being encouraged to avoid responsibility.

After all my boss may have overall responsibility but if my performance is poor I carry the can. Why should it be different for footballers?

[Cowshed]

54 minutes ago, spudski said:

I'm disagreeing with the results mate...they are a fact. But people keep sighting that it's the tactics that are a problem. Then sight that players don't understand them. That's all 'theory and made up bullshit'. They don't give reasons as to why tactics have conceded a goal...or if they talk about tactics, it often contradicts to what is actually happening on the pitch.

No one actually offers a serious solution, and answer...apart from...'sack the manager'.

Tell you what, I'll say it...sack the manager...lets get someone else in. Lets see him fail too. And guess what... the fans will then say it's the players fault, or SL's.

It just goes round and round...finger pointing.

Your assertions is the players are at fault constantly because they are not carrying out instructions.

My assertion is this. It is Lee Johnson's scattergun tactics, tinkering and man management that are fault not the fault of 30+ players, including 17 who have been signed for Lee Johnson to manage, coach, inspire and improve.. 

[bearded_red]

I think we can all agree that the fact our players make mistakes and could be a lot better than they are is somewhat ******* obvious. They do make mistakes (they're playing in the second tier), they could be better (they play for Bristol City) and in the case of a select few of them I think they should be utterly ashamed of the performances they've put in in the last few months.

I won't go through all our defeats as I want to go to sleep at some stage tonight, but I'll pick one game. The first of our 8 game losing run, the only time during this losing run that I left the game feeling the opposition were any good. Huddersfield away. One that due to us somehow only losing 2-1 and it being gifted away by our comedic goalkeeper that if you wanted to peddle a certain myth you could say we were unlucky.

When I was told the team in the pub before the game I must admit I laughed. After tinkering with the team after pretty much every game regardless of results (something which I actually don't necessarily have a massive issue with) this week he actually picks the same team as he had done in the previous game at home to Ipswich. This week of all weeks. After the Ipswich game Johnson said he had picked a certain type of a team to do a certain job against a certain type of opposition. Those of us at that game will know exactly what he meant by that remark. Then a week later against a team that plays the way that Huddersfield do he picks the same team. As I say, I laughed. I'm not actually employed by the club to watch other teams in this league, yet I knew that Tomlin out wide would be embarrassed by the way their full backs bomb on, that we'd be overran in midfield with playing 2 up front and that we didn't have the counter attack threat to worry Huddersfield on the break even with the space they leave at the back when attacking.

And there we go. 1-0 down, their right back crossing the ball into the box while Tomlin is in a different postcode. Honestly it was laughable how much space they had down the right in that first half, time and time again, their winger would drift inside taking Golbourne with him and their right back would then maraud into the open space. Tomlin then at some stage just went and played in the middle and we had even less 'protection' in front of Golbourne. The clear running argument between Johnson and Tomlin first half is why I personally believe all the rumours that surfaced after that game.

Every time Huddersfield had a goal kick they dropped their two centre halves and one centre midfielder in to receive the ball short from their goalkeeper to then play out. How long did it take us to press them and make them kick it long? 45 minutes! Laughable. It was ****** obvious from the first time they did it. Press the three players looking to receive the ball, make the keeper kick it long and then we've got an aerial battle between Wells and Flint. Clearly advantageous to us. Honestly, absolute basics. I repeat again my knowledge from Huddersfield is from watching a bit of them on TV, yet I seemed to have a better idea of how they play then our head coach.

Earlier in the season, even when the results began to rapidly turn, I was fully prepared to accept that we were looking to play in a certain way it would take time. The play could be frustratingly ponderous and the complete absence of any semblance of a counter attack frustrated me, but I was patient. Maybe we were building something, maybe it will come together. The whole narrow thing will always frustrate fans and if you listen to a lot of fans criticising their team at the moment they say the same thing. I believed that Johnson wanted our wide men (not wingers) to come inside and almost have three number tens playing behind Abraham with the width coming from the fullbacks (in a similar way to Huddersfield). This would explain the desire to have Bryan at left back (something which I will be honest and say that at the start of the season I fully supported). However our fullbacks aren't good enough to play like that and if we're honest with ourselves all of our attacking midfielders/wide players massively flatter to deceive.

Recently however, it has been a complete mess. No positive signs. Not even the tiniest hints of a way we want to play. At Ipswich the amount of times we turned down the option to counter attack in order to have some safe possession was criminal. Now fine, I will actually stand up for a team that looks to control the balance and tempo of a game through possession when others may accuse it of being boring. However opting not to try and hit on the break in order instead for your two centre halves to pass it between themselves for a bit and then eventually launch a hopeless ball at Wilbraham is not good football. I don't consider that particularly well 'coached'.

As I said you can go through every game if you have enough time and want to torture yourselves. Fundamental basic tactical errors. Wolves were a poor team but they had two threatening wingers, did we try and nullify them? Nah, just let them roast Matthews and Bryan. It doesn't take many coaching badges or that deep knowledge of the game to say to our two wide players 'oi lads just drop in and offer some protection for a bit'. Of course the players themselves should have the leadership to do this, but I don't think anybody suggesting a change in the head coach is arguing the players are anything like blameless.

Yes our players make mistakes, but they're playing for us. What do we expect? Lets have a look at the goals we score? Probably some mistakes from the opposition.. Reading are flying high and in the away game I thought they played some lovely football. Yet at Ashton Gate, mistakes gifted us two goals? Yet they still won.

If we're waiting for a error free performance for our next win (or even to avoid defeat) then I have even less hope than I did already.

Hope the resident forum Football genius approves of my post. I'm aware that really I don't deserve to have an opinion. It's not as if I'm some outspoken critic of Johnson though, it was only after Forest that I completely came to the decision he should be sacked. 

 

 

[spudski]

9 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Your assertions is the players are at fault constantly because they are not carrying out instructions.

My assertion is this. It is Lee Johnson's scattergun tactics, tinkering and man management that are fault not the fault of 30+ players, including 17 who have been signed for Lee Johnson to manage, coach, inspire and improve.. 

No i'm not...they do carry out his Instructions. But did LJ tell Golbourne to be unaware and make a poor choice? Did LJ tell Reid to pass the ball straight into someones feet? No he didn't....and it wasn't the tactics that made them do those errors...they were purely basic errors, footballers shouldn't be making, regardless of tactics. Some of our players just aren't consistently good enough....hense the mistakes.

How would changing tactics or manager change those basic errors? Errors that happen by individuals every game. How can LT's form be down to LJ not man managing him right? Of course LT has no history of spitting his dummy. How does injuries to Gon, Smith, Magners, and Matthews have anything to do with LJ. How does FF and RoD fumbling around like amateurs have anything to do with LJ? How does a grown man like Matthews need telling that fizzy drinks will make you fat and not help your healing process.....I could go on.

[Trueredsupporter]

If he signed another thirty he would struggle to find a couple of right ones to fir his hokey cokey tactics and team selections.

his project is the emporers new clothes. its team confused by a man who lost his way when he his hokey cokey tactics and team selections v Hull, and lost a momentum he doesn't know how to get back apart from asking for more time, more money, more players for excuses after excuses.

[samo II]

9 minutes ago, chinapig said:

You make your case in an articulate and passionate way yet like most fans you seem to want to entirely exonerate players from any responsibility. So if a player makes a crass mistake it's nothing to do with him it's the tactics to blame. Presumably then Reid giving the ball away ahead of the first goal yesterday was LJ's fault.

My point being by all means criticise the coach but can we please stop giving players a get out for bad decision making or poor execution? They live a sheltered enough life as it is without being encouraged to avoid responsibility.

After all my boss may have overall responsibility but if my performance is poor I carry the can. Why should it be different for footballers?

You pick out one incidence from one game, and say I'm exonerating the full playing squad from all errors?

Did we lose every single game of the 15 we've lost in the last 20 because of this?  I don't think so.

The reason we're seeing more errors is because teams are targeting weaknesses in our side that LJ either fails to see and act against, hasn't the ability to articulate what he needs the players to do to solve the problem, or sees but has no solution for.  The Cardiff example I provided in my initial post is one; Reading at home would be another, where our midfield was losing control due to the introduction of Obika who was threatening on the wings, so LJ counters this with putting on Reid then Wilbraham, leaving us unable to do anything against Meite when introduced, and the completely opened us up.

Yes, the players are culpable for some aspects of this.  But many of these players have been successful at this level or higher in other sides; you can pin some errors on some, but you can also look back at the goals we've conceded (especially since the first international break) and the players are often losing the ball trying to play into the centre, only to be dispossessed - is that coincidence?  Possibly.  But I'm not so sure.

I'm not absolving the player from blame, but after LJ has bought them, coached them, picked a line up and sent them out - at what stage is he responsible for anything that happens?  Never?  Should we presume that as his tactics work in theory, then he is no longer responsible for results if the opponent figures them out and counters them?  

And how does this get resolved?  Shall we presume every error means the player is unfit to work under LJ, and get rid?  You pick out Bobby Reid; one of our highest goal scorers and assist makers this year must be replaced because of one error, damn all that has come before?  Shall we rid our squad of all those who make errors, forced or no?  Flint would be first on the block; shall we sell him?  Tammy missed a one-on-one at Brentford; shall we send him back to Chelsea?  

It seems strange how a squad that draws a fair degree of envy, and many of whom have proven effective at this level, can perform so badly all at once - LJ has no such pedigree at this level, but are we to assume he cannot be judged as a head coach because of errors.  And what are all these errors anyway?  I've watched a bunch of our goals conceded recently, and not sure I can see all of them - one or two clear ones, but the rest just look like we're playing crap.

Being a manager/head coach means you are responsible for the direction, mentality and effectiveness of the team.  You are judged on performance, of which results are the measure.  The results are extremely poor, so that is what is heaping pressure on LJ.  If it is errors doing for him, he can't seem to iron these out, and that is hardly a ringing endorsement, is it?

[chinapig]

25 minutes ago, samo II said:

You pick out one incidence from one game, and say I'm exonerating the full playing squad from all errors?

Did we lose every single game of the 15 we've lost in the last 20 because of this?  I don't think so.

The reason we're seeing more errors is because teams are targeting weaknesses in our side that LJ either fails to see and act against, hasn't the ability to articulate what he needs the players to do to solve the problem, or sees but has no solution for.  The Cardiff example I provided in my initial post is one; Reading at home would be another, where our midfield was losing control due to the introduction of Obika who was threatening on the wings, so LJ counters this with putting on Reid then Wilbraham, leaving us unable to do anything against Meite when introduced, and the completely opened us up.

Yes, the players are culpable for some aspects of this.  But many of these players have been successful at this level or higher in other sides; you can pin some errors on some, but you can also look back at the goals we've conceded (especially since the first international break) and the players are often losing the ball trying to play into the centre, only to be dispossessed - is that coincidence?  Possibly.  But I'm not so sure.

I'm not absolving the player from blame, but after LJ has bought them, coached them, picked a line up and sent them out - at what stage is he responsible for anything that happens?  Never?  Should we presume that as his tactics work in theory, then he is no longer responsible for results if the opponent figures them out and counters them?  

And how does this get resolved?  Shall we presume every error means the player is unfit to work under LJ, and get rid?  You pick out Bobby Reid; one of our highest goal scorers and assist makers this year must be replaced because of one error, damn all that has come before?  Shall we rid our squad of all those who make errors, forced or no?  Flint would be first on the block; shall we sell him?  Tammy missed a one-on-one at Brentford; shall we send him back to Chelsea?  

It seems strange how a squad that draws a fair degree of envy, and many of whom have proven effective at this level, can perform so badly all at once - LJ has no such pedigree at this level, but are we to assume he cannot be judged as a head coach because of errors.  And what are all these errors anyway?  I've watched a bunch of our goals conceded recently, and not sure I can see all of them - one or two clear ones, but the rest just look like we're playing crap.

Being a manager/head coach means you are responsible for the direction, mentality and effectiveness of the team.  You are judged on performance, of which results are the measure.  The results are extremely poor, so that is what is heaping pressure on LJ.  If it is errors doing for him, he can't seem to iron these out, and that is hardly a ringing endorsement, is it?

I simply chose an example to illustrate my point that bad decision making or execution of skills happen whatever tactics a coach may choose. As others have said we are paying the price for too many such mistakes and I find it hard to believe that would stop if tactics were changed.

You reiterate your view that tactics lead to players making mistakes. Perhaps on occasion that might be so - I'm not sure how that can be proved or otherwise, though it might be argued for example that someone playing out of position is more likely to make mistakes - but my point stands that players have to take responsibility for their own actions and be held to account just as coaches are.

As to tactics, I can't discern what LJ's strategy is any more, which leaves me at something of a loss.

[Cowshed]

51 minutes ago, spudski said:

No i'm not...they do carry out his Instructions. But did LJ tell Golbourne to be unaware and make a poor choice? Did LJ tell Reid to pass the ball straight into someones feet? No he didn't....and it wasn't the tactics that made them do those errors...they were purely basic errors, footballers shouldn't be making, regardless of tactics. Some of our players just aren't consistently good enough....hense the mistakes.

How would changing tactics or manager change those basic errors? Errors that happen by individuals every game. How can LT's form be down to LJ not man managing him right? Of course LT has no history of spitting his dummy. How does injuries to Gon, Smith, Magners, and Matthews have anything to do with LJ. How does FF and RoD fumbling around like amateurs have anything to do with LJ? How does a grown man like Matthews need telling that fizzy drinks will make you fat and not help your healing process.....I could go on.

I have already posted how more methodical team selection and tactics would improve results. He has continued to tinker hard and lose more.

The constant record defeats are a consequence of Lee Johnson being in charge and not possessing the acumen to Manage his costly squad, and new signings enough to field new XI's of players.

Other sides have injuries ... Its lame excuse after weaker excuse.

[spudski]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I have already posted how more methodical team selection and tactics would improve results. He has continued to tinker hard and lose more.

The constant record defeats are a consequence of Lee Johnson being in charge and not possessing the acumen to Manage his costly squad, and new signings enough to field new XI's of players.

Other sides have injuries ... Its lame excuse after weaker excuse.

Do you think he would have tinkered so much with formation or players, if we didn't have so many injured or unfit, or out of form players? Do you not think he would pick his strongest players in their best positions, if that wasn't so? He's often told us why he's played players in certain positions, because of the injuries to others. Like when we went with bryan and Little as wing backs...because Matthews, Magners and Golbourne were injured or unfit. Tomlin not playing because, of what he's even admitted himself...sometimes 60% fit. Different variations of midfield because GoN and Smith have been injured, then tried, then injured again. Reid, Bryan both below form etc. Don't mention the dire goalkeeping...of course that's LJ's fault as well.

A fit and healthy first team, and we'd have been ok, but people seem to forget that it seems.

Not being funny mate...but we aren't doing anything radically different to any other team in this division.

[samo II]

17 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I simply chose an example to illustrate my point that bad decision making or execution of skills happen whatever tactics a coach may choose. As others have said we are paying the price for too many such mistakes and I find it hard to believe that would stop if tactics were changed.

You reiterate your view that tactics lead to players making mistakes. Perhaps on occasion that might be so - I'm not sure how that can be proved or otherwise, though it might be argued for example that someone playing out of position is more likely to make mistakes - but my point stands that players have to take responsibility for their own actions and be held to account just as coaches are.

As to tactics, I can't discern what LJ's strategy is any more, which leaves me at something of a loss.

I'm not disputing that; players certainly shoulder a degree of blame when they err, and it does seem to have happened a fair amount this season.

But as I think @Olé has stated elsewhere recently (and others too, I'm sure); we have moved to playing a very ponderous and narrow style, and are set up to play through the centre and contain opposing side, and as a result are not generating a high number of good chances ourselves.  

As a result, errors that might even be common (because let's be honest; every team at this level makes them) in other side are pounced on and end up costing us, as we aren't set up in a way that allows us to respond.

I'd actually say that earlier in the season we were more effective because LJ's response to going a goal down early (as we frequently would) was to go gung-ho, and chuck on a number of attacking players, including the likes of Wilbraham - more often then not we'd see goals from crosses, second phase play off crosses, or low diagonals into the box.  Take a look at YouTube, I think that is borne out from what you'll find.

After the Cardiff match/international break, we relied more and more on play through the centre, usually involving one of Reid, Paterson, Freeman or Tomlin running at a defence, looking to play in strikers, or thread a pass - these are not high % situations, and the more we've moved towards this (for reasons I cannot explain), the more we end up caught out, and mistakes punished.

I'm not exonerating players, but I disagree that all these errors we're talking about are unforced or simply idiocy on the part of the players; they are a result of how the team are being set up to play, and I think it doesn't play to our squad's strengths, hence an increase tendency to be forced into errors.  The fact we've regularly played personnel out of position to accommodate these formations also plays a big part in that.

I don't think LJ is sure how to get the best from these players, and I also don't think we're making as many unforced errors as people would suggest - we're just getting out played and out thought.

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

Do you think he would have tinkered so much with formation or players, if we didn't have so many injured or unfit, or out of form players? Do you not think he would pick his strongest players in their best positions, if that wasn't so? He's often told us why he's played players in certain positions, because of the injuries to others. Like when we went with bryan and Little as wing backs...because Matthews, Magners and Golbourne were injured or unfit. Tomlin not playing because, of what he's even admitted himself...sometimes 60% fit. Different variations of midfield because GoN and Smith have been injured, then tried, then injured again. Reid, Bryan both below form etc. Don't mention the dire goalkeeping...of course that's LJ's fault as well.

A fit and healthy first team, and we'd have been ok, but people seem to forget that it seems.

Not being funny mate...but we aren't doing anything radically different to any other team in this division.

Injuries are par for the course. He has thirty players.  

Here is a not so radical idea. Play a settled shape, work on it ceaselessly and employ similar tactics each week when out of  possession and errors will decrease.

For somebody who regularly mentions your own coaching you continually make reams of excuses for a man who is not improving players. Talented players all appear to be regressing. That is some feat.

 

[Jack Dawe]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

No i'm not...they do carry out his Instructions. But did LJ tell Golbourne to be unaware and make a poor choice? Did LJ tell Reid to pass the ball straight into someones feet? No he didn't....and it wasn't the tactics that made them do those errors...they were purely basic errors, footballers shouldn't be making, regardless of tactics. Some of our players just aren't consistently good enough....hense the mistakes.

How would changing tactics or manager change those basic errors? Errors that happen by individuals every game. How can LT's form be down to LJ not man managing him right? Of course LT has no history of spitting his dummy. How does injuries to Gon, Smith, Magners, and Matthews have anything to do with LJ. How does FF and RoD fumbling around like amateurs have anything to do with LJ? How does a grown man like Matthews need telling that fizzy drinks will make you fat and not help your healing process.....I could go on.

All that, spud - the injuries, the fumbling, the individual errors, the fizzy drinks - are what LJ is paid to cope with, to "manage," and to still put out a competent team. His job is to "manage." It is not to go "I can't manage" and then list his excuses. 

The word manage means "succeed in surviving or in achieving something despite difficult circumstances." To "cope." But I don't see anything "difficult" in what you mention there. 

He has, after all, been given a very competitive budget to "cope" with the "difficulties" you mention, to assemble a squad capable of coping with whatever a 9 month season might throw at us, and one look at the league table tells us he is not "managing" to "cope." Not at the moment.

We are not the only club with a couple of injuries, or a fumbling goalie, or a player not refuelling properly. We are not the only club that has problems to "cope" with. Every club has challenges that requires managing. Some are managing/coping better than others. I don't see any great problems LJ has had to "cope" with, unless the player unrest happens to be true.

But we are told this is not the case, so I am struggling to see anything exceptional LJ has had to "cope" with. If he cannot "manage" with 4 injuries, individual player error, fumbling keepers and fizzy pop, what is he doing in charge of a Championship football club first team?

We were told he is an "in demand" coach, what happened to coaching players and ironing out the errors?

My suspicion is that the players have seen through LJ's spiel and have little or decreasing confidence and belief in him, and that lack of confidence is evident on the pitch, and manifests itself in the many individual errors you mention, and too many laboured performances and a lack of spark about our play.

 

But you are right, there is still time for us to finish midtable. With the players we have, a competent coach ought to be able to "manage" that. 

 

[ScottishRed]

1 minute ago, Jack Dawe said:

All that, spud - the injuries, the fumbling, the individual errors, the fizzy drinks - are what LJ is paid to cope with, to "manage," and to still put out a competent team. His job is to "manage." It is not to go "I can't manage" and then list his excuses. 

The word manage means "succeed in surviving or in achieving something despite difficult circumstances." To "cope." But I don't see anything "difficult" in what you mention there. 

He has, after all, been given a very competitive budget to "cope" with the "difficulties" you mention, to assemble a squad capable of coping with whatever a 9 month season might throw at us, and one look at the league table tells us he is not "managing" to "cope." Not at the moment.

We are not the only club with a couple of injuries, or a fumbling goalie, or a player not refuelling properly. We are not the only club that has problems to "cope" with. Every club has challenges that requires managing. Some are managing/coping better than others. I don't see any great problems LJ has had to "cope" with, unless the player unrest happens to be true.

But we are told this is not the case, so I am struggling to see anything exceptional LJ has had to "cope" with. If he cannot "manage" with 4 injuries, individual player error, fumbling keepers and fizzy pop, what is he doing in charge of a Championship football club first team?

We were told he is an "in demand" coach, what happened to coaching players and ironing out the errors?

My suspicion is that the players have seen through LJ's spiel and have little or decreasing confidence and belief in him, and that lack of confidence is evident on the pitch, and manifests itself in the many individual errors you mention, and too many laboured performances and a lack of spark about our play.

 

But you are right, there is still time for us to finish midtable. With the players we have, a competent coach ought to be able to "manage" that. 

 

Good post.

[CityCiderEd]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

Not being funny mate...but we aren't doing anything radically different to any other team in this division.

The only thing radically different is no bloody points.......

[spudski]

26 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Injuries are par for the course. He has thirty players.  

Here is a not so radical idea. Play a settled shape, work on it ceaselessly and employ similar tactics each week when out of  possession and errors will decrease.

For somebody who regularly mentions your own coaching you continually make reams of excuses for a man who is not improving players. Talented players all appear to be regressing. That is some feat.

 

For somebody who talks about coaching so eloquently most occasions, I'm frustrated at how you fail to ignore how unsettling the injuries to key players has been, and that saying 'thirty players'...makes them sound all equal in experience and ability.

Plus find me topics where I have mentioned my coaching continually...Don't make things up.

You fail to recognise why we have played a settled shape. You just think that if a player gets injured, then we can fill that spot with a similar experienced and player. For example...Matthews injured...so we play Little...he isn't the same ability...he's injured, we've tried Moore, not at same standard yet, now we are down to a rookie in Vyner.

Same for GoN and Smith...our two most experienced DM.

I despair sometimes at how some people just see numbers and think it's a game played on a computer.

You should...imo, know better than this.

If all these players who you think have regressed, turn this season around under LJ, and we start winning, are you the LJ haters going to say the guy deserves credit for turning it round? If you do...you'd all be wrong as well.

Why can't you see, that we are playing and doing pretty much everything the same as when we were winning? Because we are. Tell me what we are doing so drastically different now, to then?

You actually think LJ is going to improve players like Tomlin, GoN, Matthews, FF, Golbourne etc?

The players that will improve are the likes of Moore, Brownhill, Odowda etc.

I'm not saying LJ is perfect, far from it. But I'm sick of people just blaming him....when you can physically see with your own eyes, certain players bollocking it up week in, week out, because of their mistakes...not his.

[NickJ]

6 hours ago, spudski said:

Yes...Individual errors costing us goals. Yes...1 win in 3 months, Just because you or some fans don't understand the tactics, it doesn't mean there aren't any ;-), chopping and changing out of necessity, because of injuries and out of form players or unfit, had arguments about football...YES. 'People' haven't written off Wednesday, only folk who want it to be written off so that LJ gets sacked. I disagree that it was a toothless display against a Burnley side with a great home record. Of course I watch the match's...however, there are a lot on here who make negative comments, don't go regularly. They, are of course entitled to their opinion of course....whether taken seriously, is another thing.

 

 

5 hours ago, spudski said:

And this where I can't take your comment seriously...because I can clearly see what the players are being asked to do. They keep shape well...however it appears tactics mean the likes of Golbourne dilly dallying...and Reid making a crap pass into a player. People read that as 'not understanding tactics' or 'don't understand what is being asked of them'....it's not...it individual errors, often basic footballing, not tactics.

Yes some make good points...others have no idea, often sighting that we play with no width, when Bryan and Little don't actually leave the touchline. Plus numerous other hypocritical comments about LJ doing things, the exact same people were asking him to do when he took over from SC.Sorry mate...I understand peoples frustrations, but there are some serious case's of dummy throwing going on, and vitriolic posts aimed to just cause unrest, argument or just plain vindictive. This place has become toxic, and some decent people have changed their personalities greatly...often in the past diligent and thoughtful, but now just full of throw away 'Sun like sensationalist' throw comments.

This is not a good place to debate anymore.

 

5 hours ago, spudski said:

I'm disagreeing with the results mate...they are a fact. But people keep sighting that it's the tactics that are a problem. Then sight that players don't understand them. That's all 'theory and made up bullshit'. They don't give reasons as to why tactics have conceded a goal...or if they talk about tactics, it often contradicts to what is actually happening on the pitch.

No one actually offers a serious solution, and answer...apart from...'sack the manager'.

Tell you what, I'll say it...sack the manager...lets get someone else in. Lets see him fail too. And guess what... the fans will then say it's the players fault, or SL's.

It just goes round and round...finger pointing.

 

4 hours ago, spudski said:

No i'm not...they do carry out his Instructions. But did LJ tell Golbourne to be unaware and make a poor choice? Did LJ tell Reid to pass the ball straight into someones feet? No he didn't....and it wasn't the tactics that made them do those errors...they were purely basic errors, footballers shouldn't be making, regardless of tactics. Some of our players just aren't consistently good enough....hense the mistakes.

How would changing tactics or manager change those basic errors? Errors that happen by individuals every game. How can LT's form be down to LJ not man managing him right? Of course LT has no history of spitting his dummy. How does injuries to Gon, Smith, Magners, and Matthews have anything to do with LJ. How does FF and RoD fumbling around like amateurs have anything to do with LJ? How does a grown man like Matthews need telling that fizzy drinks will make you fat and not help your healing process.....I could go on.

 

2 hours ago, spudski said:

Do you think he would have tinkered so much with formation or players, if we didn't have so many injured or unfit, or out of form players? Do you not think he would pick his strongest players in their best positions, if that wasn't so? He's often told us why he's played players in certain positions, because of the injuries to others. Like when we went with bryan and Little as wing backs...because Matthews, Magners and Golbourne were injured or unfit. Tomlin not playing because, of what he's even admitted himself...sometimes 60% fit. Different variations of midfield because GoN and Smith have been injured, then tried, then injured again. Reid, Bryan both below form etc. Don't mention the dire goalkeeping...of course that's LJ's fault as well.

A fit and healthy first team, and we'd have been ok, but people seem to forget that it seems.

Not being funny mate...but we aren't doing anything radically different to any other team in this division.

I have seen post after post after post after post of yours where you blame the fact that, having spent £15m on 17 players, we are one off relegation due to individual mistakes.

Do you not realise how unlikely that is, other than the fact that either:

a) the players the manager has selected are crap? or

b) the manager is useless?

[spudski]

41 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

All that, spud - the injuries, the fumbling, the individual errors, the fizzy drinks - are what LJ is paid to cope with, to "manage," and to still put out a competent team. His job is to "manage." It is not to go "I can't manage" and then list his excuses. 

The word manage means "succeed in surviving or in achieving something despite difficult circumstances." To "cope." But I don't see anything "difficult" in what you mention there. 

He has, after all, been given a very competitive budget to "cope" with the "difficulties" you mention, to assemble a squad capable of coping with whatever a 9 month season might throw at us, and one look at the league table tells us he is not "managing" to "cope." Not at the moment.

We are not the only club with a couple of injuries, or a fumbling goalie, or a player not refuelling properly. We are not the only club that has problems to "cope" with. Every club has challenges that requires managing. Some are managing/coping better than others. I don't see any great problems LJ has had to "cope" with, unless the player unrest happens to be true.

But we are told this is not the case, so I am struggling to see anything exceptional LJ has had to "cope" with. If he cannot "manage" with 4 injuries, individual player error, fumbling keepers and fizzy pop, what is he doing in charge of a Championship football club first team?

We were told he is an "in demand" coach, what happened to coaching players and ironing out the errors?

My suspicion is that the players have seen through LJ's spiel and have little or decreasing confidence and belief in him, and that lack of confidence is evident on the pitch, and manifests itself in the many individual errors you mention, and too many laboured performances and a lack of spark about our play.

 

But you are right, there is still time for us to finish midtable. With the players we have, a competent coach ought to be able to "manage" that. 

 

And that's why I think he will turn it around...I want him to be tested and given that chance. Granted, I still don't fancy our chances, regardless of what manager we have with only Vyner fit at RB and an out of form golbourne and Bryan at LB.

If we are floundering in the relegation zone with say 5/6 games left, then I'd suggest we found another coach to take over.

[spudski]

3 minutes ago, NickJ said:

 

 

 

 

I have seen post after post after post after post of yours where you blame the fact that, having spent £15m on 17 players, we are one off relegation due to individual mistakes.

Do you not realise how unlikely that is, other than the fact that either:

a) the players the manager has selected are crap? or

b) the manager is useless?

£15m on 17 players in this league is peanuts.

[Ivorguy]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

£15m on 17 players in this league is peanuts.

Other teams above us have spent less

However if the argument is we should have spent more then if SL was only owner of The City then he would have the money available he has spent on other parts of BS, especially the rugby

[Jack Dawe]

10 minutes ago, spudski said:

And that's why I think he will turn it around...I want him to be tested and given that chance. Granted, I still don't fancy our chances, regardless of what manager we have with only Vyner fit at RB and an out of form golbourne and Bryan at LB.

If we are floundering in the relegation zone with say 5/6 games left, then I'd suggest we found another coach to take over.

No wonder you go skiing. You're a downhill, white-knuckle-ride adrenalin junkie who wants this to "go to the wire." To see how LJ "copes"! 

[CityCiderEd]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

For somebody who talks about coaching so eloquently most occasions, I'm frustrated at how you fail to ignore how unsettling the injuries to key players has been, and that saying 'thirty players'...makes them sound all equal in experience and ability.

Plus find me topics where I have mentioned my coaching continually...Don't make things up.

You fail to recognise why we have played a settled shape. You just think that if a player gets injured, then we can fill that spot with a similar experienced and player. For example...Matthews injured...so we play Little...he isn't the same ability...he's injured, we've tried Moore, not at same standard yet, now we are down to a rookie in Vyner.

Same for GoN and Smith...our two most experienced DM.

I despair sometimes at how some people just see numbers and think it's a game played on a computer.

You should...imo, know better than this.

If all these players who you think have regressed, turn this season around under LJ, and we start winning, are you the LJ haters going to say the guy deserves credit for turning it round? If you do...you'd all be wrong as well.

Why can't you see, that we are playing and doing pretty much everything the same as when we were winning? Because we are. Tell me what we are doing so drastically different now, to then?

You actually think LJ is going to improve players like Tomlin, GoN, Matthews, FF, Golbourne etc?

The players that will improve are the likes of Moore, Brownhill, Odowda etc.

I'm not saying LJ is perfect, far from it. But I'm sick of people just blaming him....when you can physically see with your own eyes, certain players bollocking it up week in, week out, because of their mistakes...not his.

Sorry mate but to say a manager can't improve good players is wrong.A prime example is Pottechino at Spurs and previously Saints.He improved players and tactics at both clubs massively just ask the fans or read their forums about what he achieved and in Saints case turned them into a top 8 side.