The argument against sacking

[GrahamC]

8 minutes ago, spudski said:

And that's why I think he will turn it around...I want him to be tested and given that chance. Granted, I still don't fancy our chances, regardless of what manager we have with only Vyner fit at RB and an out of form golbourne and Bryan at LB.

If we are floundering in the relegation zone with say 5/6 games left, then I'd suggest we found another coach to take over.

Absolutely incredible.

You have posted excuse after excuse for LJ on this thread.

However our current form is a country mile worse even than that of those Championship giants Rotherham (who don't even have a permanent manager, FFS) and Burton Albion (with their 4000 home gates and minuscule budget), how on earth can that be defended?

Johnson has bought in players like Engvall for close to £2m and Moore for £1.5m yet never picks one of them and loans the other out (that sort of rank incompetence is why we are left with "only Vyner" fit at RB, by the way).

[Tears in rain]

6 hours ago, samo II said:

If he wants to play 352 he should know he needs quality wing backs; half a season playing 352 under Cotts with EXACTLY the same wide players told us we didn't have the personnel for it, so why a season later are we reverting to it when all we have available are the same two wide men?

This was what got me a few weeks back! I couldn't work out why he believed that would be his saviour. It was obvious it wasn't going to work as SC found out last season and LJ should've know this as well.

I get he was dealeraye for something to change the fortunes of the club though 

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

Other teams above us have spent less

However if the argument is we should have spent more then if SL was only owner of The City then he would have the money available he has spent on other parts of BS, especially the rugby

I think we've done excellent business fella...haven't got a problem with what SL has spent. We've still got nearly half a season left. I'll judge LJ towards the end of the season. If we end up mid table ish, some people are going to look really stupid on here. If SL gives him a chance to turn it round and he fails, then SL will be right to sack him. But right now...no.

 

4 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

No wonder you go skiing. You're a downhill, white-knuckle-ride adrenalin junkie who wants this to "go to the wire." To see how LJ "copes"! 

I'd rather we did that, than not find out. He maybe a good manager in the making. Even some of the greats have had awful periods at Clubs.

 

4 minutes ago, CityCiderEd said:

Sorry mate but to say a manager can't improve good players is wrong.A prime example is Pottechino at Spurs and previously Saints.He improved players and tactics at both clubs massively just ask the fans or read their forums about what he achieved and in Saints case turned them into a top 8 side. 

I haven't said that...I mentioned the names of players, who I feel won't improve their ability, even under any manager. Those I mentioned have peaked.

1 minute ago, GrahamC said:

Absolutely incredible.

You have posted excuse after excuse for LJ on this thread.

However our current form is a country mile worse even than that of those Championship giants Rotherham (who don't even have a permanent manager, FFS) and Burton Albion (with their 4000 home gates and minuscule budget), how on earth can that be defended?

Johnson has bought in players like Engvall for close to £2m and Moore for £1.5m yet never picks one of them and loans the other out (that sort of rank incompetence is why we are left with "only Vyner" fit at RB, by the way).

Seriously fella? How many RB's do you want at the beginning of the season? He has the opportunity to buy players like Engval and Moore at good prices, for the future, but thinks to himself, I know, screw that, I'm going to need 5 RB's this season FFS

That's how we are rolling these days...buying players cheaper, that will get better and grow in value. Any manager that works for SL has this blue print to work with.

If you've got a problem, have it out with SL, not me.

Right last words for the night...it's like a torrent on here...packs of haters coming at the one bloke who dares to stand up for LJ. Too much for one person.

I bid you goodnight fellow reds.

[Inactive user]

8 hours ago, chinapig said:

Chances are sacking LJ will not deliver the outcome people want I fear.

I think you almost certainly correct.

[cityironman]

9 minutes ago, Rednwhiterob said:

I think you almost certainly correct.

Its impossible, on current form, to get anybody that could do any worse unless they manage to lose every game by more than the odd goal!!

You never know, we might even win the odd game!!

[Cowshed]

54 minutes ago, spudski said:

For somebody who talks about coaching so eloquently most occasions, I'm frustrated at how you fail to ignore how unsettling the injuries to key players has been, and that saying 'thirty players'...makes them sound all equal in experience and ability.

Plus find me topics where I have mentioned my coaching continually...Don't make things up.

You fail to recognise why we have played a settled shape. You just think that if a player gets injured, then we can fill that spot with a similar experienced and player. For example...Matthews injured...so we play Little...he isn't the same ability...he's injured, we've tried Moore, not at same standard yet, now we are down to a rookie in Vyner.

Same for GoN and Smith...our two most experienced DM.

I despair sometimes at how some people just see numbers and think it's a game played on a computer.

You should...imo, know better than this.

If all these players who you think have regressed, turn this season around under LJ, and we start winning, are you the LJ haters going to say the guy deserves credit for turning it round? If you do...you'd all be wrong as well.

Why can't you see, that we are playing and doing pretty much everything the same as when we were winning? Because we are. Tell me what we are doing so drastically different now, to then?

You actually think LJ is going to improve players like Tomlin, GoN, Matthews, FF, Golbourne etc?

The players that will improve are the likes of Moore, Brownhill, Odowda etc.

I'm not saying LJ is perfect, far from it. But I'm sick of people just blaming him....when you can physically see with your own eyes, certain players bollocking it up week in, week out, because of their mistakes...not his.

 

50 minutes ago, NickJ said:

 

 

 

 

I have seen post after post after post after post of yours where you blame the fact that, having spent £15m on 17 players, we are one off relegation due to individual mistakes.

Do you not realise how unlikely that is, other than the fact that either:

a) the players the manager has selected are crap? or

b) the manager is useless?

I think the answers are above Spudski. Mr Johnson is not the outstanding skilled individual Mr Ashton describes.

A team with missing players due to  injuries should be able to hold higher defensive lines. as they did earlier in the season. Professional teams should be able to narrow down, hold two lines, know what their triggers are. The squad should be versed in how they play in and out of possession. I will stick with a statement I have made before - I have seen youth teams able to do what Lee Johnsons squad of millions fail to do at times. 

You actually think LJ is going to improve players like Tomlin, GoN, Matthews, FF, Golbourne etc? ... Technically no. Improve into a team shape. His team shape and ideas? Yes 100%.  

I will hold fast with my view that Mr Johnson is not improving players, the reverse is happening to talented players, and he should be the be one taking full responsibility

Hater? Silly.

[Unan]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

For somebody who talks about coaching so eloquently most occasions, I'm frustrated at how you fail to ignore how unsettling the injuries to key players has been, and that saying 'thirty players'...makes them sound all equal in experience and ability.

Plus find me topics where I have mentioned my coaching continually...Don't make things up.

You fail to recognise why we have played a settled shape. You just think that if a player gets injured, then we can fill that spot with a similar experienced and player. For example...Matthews injured...so we play Little...he isn't the same ability...he's injured, we've tried Moore, not at same standard yet, now we are down to a rookie in Vyner.

Same for GoN and Smith...our two most experienced DM.

I despair sometimes at how some people just see numbers and think it's a game played on a computer.

You should...imo, know better than this.

If all these players who you think have regressed, turn this season around under LJ, and we start winning, are you the LJ haters going to say the guy deserves credit for turning it round? If you do...you'd all be wrong as well.

Why can't you see, that we are playing and doing pretty much everything the same as when we were winning? Because we are. Tell me what we are doing so drastically different now, to then?

You actually think LJ is going to improve players like Tomlin, GoN, Matthews, FF, Golbourne etc?

The players that will improve are the likes of Moore, Brownhill, Odowda etc.

I'm not saying LJ is perfect, far from it. But I'm sick of people just blaming him....when you can physically see with your own eyes, certain players bollocking it up week in, week out, because of their mistakes...not his.

I agree with your entire post, however, LJ is paid (a lot) to manage the team and to win. So, whatever the circumstances, it's his 'problem' and he has to sort it himself. The buck stops with him.

[Guest]

'The argument against sacking'?

'It's the tactics', 'He's playing player's out of position', 'He's a midget', 'He doesn't know his best team', 'He's lost the dressing room', 'Worst losing streak in history', etc.
These are all stock answers for any fan who is not happy about their teams performance - it's the obvious, the knee jerk and the flapper response. In difficult positions, it's hard to keep a cool head when the 'easy' answer is to 'sack him'.

I'm not happy about our current predicament and I've left some of our games incensed, especially when we seem to have just capitulated with no more than a whimper. It looks like the team just don't have the savvyness to close games down, keep a cool head etc. It seems to be a lack of maturity. This tends to indicate a lack of leadership on the pitch. Fair enough, LJ is the manager and chooses the captain, but it is also for the team to sort it out as well - LJ is not there to wipe the teams arse.

I've said this numerous times and I'll repeat (no doubt someone will come out with the stock phrase about stupidity, not realising that we've sacked numerous managers with no real improvement in City's standing - yes, a temporary fix but the whole process begins again): We are not getting caned and we are not in the relegation zone - I don't believe the same can be said about the sackings in the past e.g. SC had a GD of -23 I believe when he got the sack and was in the relegation zone.

There is the element of 'Je ne sais quoi' about our losing form at the moment and it isn't as easy as the 'FIFA manager types' would have us believe. Let us be in no doubt, LJ is on very thin ice (when the board says 'We support the manager', in the past this has been an indicator that the sack is around the corner) and I should imagine that if 3 points don't materialise soon, unfortunately he might go.

Until that time, for me, this is a matter of supporting my team and the manager - cue the usual inane comments.

[Portland Bill]

5 hours ago, spudski said:

Do you think he would have tinkered so much with formation or players, if we didn't have so many injured or unfit, or out of form players? Do you not think he would pick his strongest players in their best positions, if that wasn't so? He's often told us why he's played players in certain positions, because of the injuries to others. Like when we went with bryan and Little as wing backs...because Matthews, Magners and Golbourne were injured or unfit. Tomlin not playing because, of what he's even admitted himself...sometimes 60% fit. Different variations of midfield because GoN and Smith have been injured, then tried, then injured again. Reid, Bryan both below form etc. Don't mention the dire goalkeeping...of course that's LJ's fault as well.

A fit and healthy first team, and we'd have been ok, but people seem to forget that it seems.

Not being funny mate...but we aren't doing anything radically different to any other team in this division.

Re your very last sentence.  Yes we are. with respect, I thought LJ was the only one who couldn't see it!  

We don't play with any width.

In previous posts you talk about it not being LJ's fault that players give the ball away. Partly true, but the way LJ sets the team up is mainly to blame for this. The players haven't started giving the ball away more often just by chance, it's how they are being told to play, the shape we play, and the general tactics LJ wants them to use, the narrowness.

 Let me explain, I played in a central midfield role for 15 years. Players who play in that position automatically look wide when they get the ball, it's your natural outlet, your looking to keep the ball and at the same time give it to someone who will usually have a little more time on the ball, someone who naturally has more space than your fellow central players. Your also looking out wide to see if you can play balls in behind a full back, or inside the full back. Having at least one wide man gives the whole team an extra option, one we haven't had for the last 3-4 months.

Our midfielders/ full backs this season have none of these options, they have to play everything centrally into a congested area, they are being forced to try and play balls through the eye of a needle into areas where the opposition are strong. It's no wonder that balls are going slightly astray or being cut out, mainly because the opposition know that's the only area  our players have to pass the ball.

The opposition are strong in this area, but not by coincidence, far from it, they overload this area because their coaching staff know exactly how we play week in week out. Every scouting report on us must read the same, " defend narrow and press the central midfield area, width is not a problem, they don't use that part of the pitch"

I can't say it enough times, we are predictable, every other manager in this league knows how we play, and have done for months. 

 

 

[chinapig]

5 hours ago, cityironman said:

Its impossible, on current form, to get anybody that could do any worse unless they manage to lose every game by more than the odd goal!!

You never know, we might even win the odd game!!

You may be right but my point was that those who continually crave a 'big name' may be disappointed to say the least.

[chinapig]

6 hours ago, cityironman said:

Its impossible, on current form, to get anybody that could do any worse unless they manage to lose every game by more than the odd goal!!

You never know, we might even win the odd game!!

You may be right but my point was that those who continually crave a 'big name' may be disappointed to say the least.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Absolutely incredible.

You have posted excuse after excuse for LJ on this thread.

However our current form is a country mile worse even than that of those Championship giants Rotherham (who don't even have a permanent manager, FFS) and Burton Albion (with their 4000 home gates and minuscule budget), how on earth can that be defended?

Johnson has bought in players like Engvall for close to £2m and Moore for £1.5m yet never picks one of them and loans the other out (that sort of rank incompetence is why we are left with "only Vyner" fit at RB, by the way).

Johnson, no-one else, has also brought in his latest recruit Djuric added to Engvall (our front line one for the future strike force) include the German goalie (did we really need him) even Odowna? and others with little to no championship exp; LJ must have spent many millions on players which really are arguably no better than we had already and definitely less exp. I would say way to many changes and even LJ has no clue as to BCFC`S FIRST TEAM.

The Chelsea loanee is left so isolated that he just as well be sat in the stands, it is no coincidence that his drying up of goals matches our lack of points, We have far from a team yet quite a few decent players ,however a manager who is lost and "learning" no surprise then that we are now genuine relegation candidates.

[Trueredsupporter]

The tinkering has not been due to injuries its been change panic change panic spudski. new change is buy tall and taller sit back and hit it longer.

[Portland Bill]

15 hours ago, spudski said:

For somebody who talks about coaching so eloquently most occasions, I'm frustrated at how you fail to ignore how unsettling the injuries to key players has been, and that saying 'thirty players'...makes them sound all equal in experience and ability.

Plus find me topics where I have mentioned my coaching continually...Don't make things up.

You fail to recognise why we have played a settled shape. You just think that if a player gets injured, then we can fill that spot with a similar experienced and player. For example...Matthews injured...so we play Little...he isn't the same ability...he's injured, we've tried Moore, not at same standard yet, now we are down to a rookie in Vyner.

Same for GoN and Smith...our two most experienced DM.

I despair sometimes at how some people just see numbers and think it's a game played on a computer.

You should...imo, know better than this.

If all these players who you think have regressed, turn this season around under LJ, and we start winning, are you the LJ haters going to say the guy deserves credit for turning it round? If you do...you'd all be wrong as well.

Why can't you see, that we are playing and doing pretty much everything the same as when we were winning? Because we are. Tell me what we are doing so drastically different now, to then?

You actually think LJ is going to improve players like Tomlin, GoN, Matthews, FF, Golbourne etc?

The players that will improve are the likes of Moore, Brownhill, Odowda etc.

I'm not saying LJ is perfect, far from it. But I'm sick of people just blaming him....when you can physically see with your own eyes, certain players bollocking it up week in, week out, because of their mistakes...not his.

If he turns this season around I will give him credit, no problem. 

But he's going to have to change our shape on the pitch to stand any chance imo. 

[Jack Dawe]

So, to try and sum up. The arguments against sacking LJ are:

1. The chap that appointed LJ will be the chap appointing LJ's replacement (me).

2. It is the players and their individual errors putting us in this position (spud).

3. We have had injuries, and Adam Matthews has been guzzling fizzy pop (spud).

4. We are not getting caned - the old, we're only losing by one goal thing - (bcfcfinker)

5. We are not in the relegation zone - the old, Rovers 2014 thing (bcfc finker) 

6. It is doubtful there is a man "out there" capable of making us competitive (Emperor Palpably whatsisname)

7. The chances are, removing LJ will make no difference (chinapig)

8. Some of us don't understand the tactics, so, er, but most of us understand the league table (I'm not sure that this belongs on this list - me).

9. It's not LJ, it's Lee Tomlin, and he needs to buckle down - and stop piping up (SL).

 

I think that's it. We will now retire to watch City v Wednesday and resume after the match......

[Trueredsupporter]

Spudskis argument is that is Fieldings Littles, Bryans, Goldbournes, Flint, Matthews, Moores, Smiths, Oneills, Reid, Tomlins, Packs, Pattersons, Odowdas fault. He would blame Engval but he does a great job keeping the bench tidy.

[...]

Can I ask who this thread is sponsored by?

 

tfj

[Sixtyseconds]

Missed one Jack.

10. Nobody else is going to improve players like Tomlin, GoN, Matthews, FF, Golbourne etc?

Wasting your time telling them anything.