High pressing game

[Snufflelufagus]

A good point yesterday but again we let a lead slip. I am starting to wonder if the high intensity high pressing game can be played for 90mins and two games a week? Already lots of fans talking about changes for Tuesday as players are tired. Even LJ said after the game that if one of them doesn't do it then it doesn't work (as holes are left) also would explain no tomlin. I think back to last season when we played Huddersfield at home. They played al the same way in the first half v us. I thought they looked one of the best teams I'd seen for a while. Second half they just ran out of stream and we scored 3 or 4 goals (this season do they still play the same way or are they extremely fitter?). Again Liverpool seem to also play this way and have recently tailed off ran out of steam?. It may explain why we let in so many late goals and leads slip. When you are tired and let a goal go surely your head and decision making must go to some extent, as it's much harder when you are tired.

[nickolas]

The pressing game is fine, IF WE ACTUALLY PLAYED IT! To me this is the sole reason why our form has gone out of control. 

We spent early season doing it and now seem to feel we dont need to and can just sit back and hold out ( Reading, Fulham at home for example ). 

Every team looks great if you afford them the time we have been over the last few months. 

[Vincent Vega]

11 minutes ago, nickolas said:

The pressing game is fine, IF WE ACTUALLY PLAYED IT! To me this is the sole reason why our form has gone out of control. 

We spent early season doing it and now seem to feel we dont need to and can just sit back and hold out ( Reading, Fulham at home for example ). 

Every team looks great if you afford them the time we have been over the last few months. 

Exactly this , we have no style of play or identity which is fine as it confuses the opposition.  Unfortunately for us the coaching staff seem to have confused our own players as to what they are meant to be doing. When you are struggling go back to basics like Pembo last January.  What yesterday reinforced for me is we have the players to compete comfortably in this league so our problems lay elsewhere.  I wonder where that could be ?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Doozerchris said:

Exactly this , we have no style of play or identity which is fine as it confuses the opposition.  Unfortunately for us the coaching staff seem to have confused our own players as to what they are meant to be doing. When you are struggling go back to basics like Pembo last January.  What yesterday reinforced for me is we have the players to compete comfortably in this league so our problems lay elsewhere.  I wonder where that could be ?

I know, I know

[Engvall's Splinter]

2 hours ago, Snufflelufagus said:

A good point yesterday but again we let a lead slip. I am starting to wonder if the high intensity high pressing game can be played for 90mins and two games a week? Already lots of fans talking about changes for Tuesday as players are tired. Even LJ said after the game that if one of them doesn't do it then it doesn't work (as holes are left) also would explain no tomlin. I think back to last season when we played Huddersfield at home. They played al the same way in the first half v us. I thought they looked one of the best teams I'd seen for a while. Second half they just ran out of stream and we scored 3 or 4 goals (this season do they still play the same way or are they extremely fitter?). Again Liverpool seem to also play this way and have recently tailed off ran out of steam?. It may explain why we let in so many late goals and leads slip. When you are tired and let a goal go surely your head and decision making must go to some extent, as it's much harder when you are tired.

High pressing game? Is this a wind up?

Did I miss this at Fulham? I've not seen his interview from yesterday, did he say we pressed the opposition on Wednesday night? 

[nickolas]

1 hour ago, Doozerchris said:

Exactly this , we have no style of play or identity which is fine as it confuses the opposition.  Unfortunately for us the coaching staff seem to have confused our own players as to what they are meant to be doing. When you are struggling go back to basics like Pembo last January.  What yesterday reinforced for me is we have the players to compete comfortably in this league so our problems lay elsewhere.  I wonder where that could be ?

Elsewhere........our tinkerman head coach!

5 or 6 changes every week trying to keep everyone happy is the source of issue along with 3 formations per game. 

442, high press and dont give these players time on the ball would see us more than competitive. 

I am sure we have more than enough decent players to challenge top half yet everything is clouded by the tinkerman approach. 

 

[Vincent Vega]

7 minutes ago, nickolas said:

Elsewhere........our tinkerman head coach!

5 or 6 changes every week trying to keep everyone happy is the source of issue along with 3 formations per game. 

442, high press and dont give these players time on the ball would see us more than competitive. 

I am sure we have more than enough decent players to challenge top half yet everything is clouded by the tinkerman approach. 

 

Was kind of point. 

[Rascal]

We can play a high intensity pressing game for 90 minutes, but we have one of the youngest fittest squads in the league, and our fitness coaches and sports science team are the dogs bollox. Every player as their own specific fitness training program and diet, and it shows on the pitch every game even when we play twice a week. 

[Benjam!n Ultra]

5 minutes ago, Rascal said:

We can play a high intensity pressing game for 90 minutes, but we have one of the youngest fittest squads in the league, and our fitness coaches and sports science team are the dogs bollox. Every player as their own specific fitness training program and diet, and it shows on the pitch every game even when we play twice a week. 

Who the **** cares?

[Rascal]

7 minutes ago, Benjam!n Ultra said:

Who the **** cares?

He asked if it can be done, the way Barnsley play is proof it can, so I made him aware of it, I also pointed out how we do it. 

[Hazelboy]

35 minutes ago, Rascal said:

We can play a high intensity pressing game for 90 minutes, but we have one of the youngest fittest squads in the league, and our fitness coaches and sports science team are the dogs bollox. Every player as their own specific fitness training program and diet, and it shows on the pitch every game even when we play twice a week. 

What an amazing club you are, seriously considering changing allegiance.

how much is a season ticket in what I presume is the best stadium in the world to watch the youngest, fittest team the worlds ever seen? 

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

Our problem against Fulham was hegeler and Djuric were not pressing well enough. Plus being outnumbered in midfield did not help. So then the defence naturally drops deeper. It gives the impression theyre not trying, when really the likes of Brownhill, Bryan and cotterill were working their socks off, but just had too much to do. I am not sure hegeler is ever going to adapt. Maybe he can work in a 3 man midfield better, who knows. I like Djuric, but I reckon he'd be more suited in a side with high flying wingers, playing on the break. A bit like how Preston used that huge striker against us, with Robinson and mcgeedy either side. And then there's tomlin who actually seemed to do OK against Ipswich on the left, tracked back much better than usual,  but generally offers nothing without the ball at his feet. Johnson has bought good individual players, but without any idea of how to fit them all together.

Some good points in this post Jon

The pressing game can be played for 90 mins , two games in a week if it's done correctly and you have the players to impose it

To do it correctly / successfully requires good work on the coaching ground , you don't press for 90mins but do it in waves when both shape wise and energy wise as a team you are ready to do it 

Should be triggered by the front player(s) at the right times and requires every player to take part , not only those pressing the ball but others adjusting positionally as the press takes place - One or two players not committed to it and at this level you will get picked off

I think what you've highlighted @JonDolman is that a number of players are not necessarily suited to a high press game - You reasonably mention Hegler and Duric

There also,appears to be one or two (AM & LT spring to mind) who are 'not of the mindset' to take part in a high press which makes it nigh on impossible

Agree with you Jon that our recruiting , or at least some of it has not been done with this tactic as a foremost thought

I like the high press , done well,  like Huddersfield , Liverpool at their best,  it's very effective

Continued selection changes also tends to make the press as a style of play very difficult if not impossible to do,consistently and successfully as it's vital that players know and understand their roles in it as well as knowing those around them and trust them

One cog out the wheel and it can quickly fail

 

If LJ wants to play a pressing game which he appears or appeared to like he needs to

Recruit specifically for a certain type for a certain role

Move on any players not %100 committed or willing to be so

Ensure consistent selection

Spend a lot of time on the training ground  

 

I do think our recruitment doesn't seem to follow LJs philosophies necessarily

Yesterday he said in I/v he wants '11 little bees' buzzing around playing good football ( That doesn't sound very good written on here tbf to LJ - my interpretation was a mobile flowing footballing style with interchanging positionally etc) but the recruiting doesn't necessarily reflect that 

Clubs in the bag (Something I'd like to have) ?       Possibly

I do think Lee has become confused in his approach and I don't like that he (As he's said numerous times) picks an eleven and formation / plan for each game

 

Id much prefer us to have a definitive method and stick with it for the vast majority of time , with a decent alternative plan B , and in time an occasionally used Plan C

Spend %80 of your coaching time on Method / Plan A Lee

%20 on your chosen Method / plan B

When you've got your preferred method well drilled , you can spend more time improving B and C

At times it appears as if we are asking different players , sometimes in different positions , trying to follow and impose a specific game plan for a specific opposition - That's a lot to ask of any player , even the very top top players

Players knowing their roles and knowing and trusting their teammates around them is a massive part of any decent side

Please Lee - Some consistency in selection and Method / plan and more concentration on how we play will serve us well for the rest of the season

 

On another but connected note

Personally I think DC is a massive help defensively to us , as well as a potent attacking threat - I saw a comment that he never tackles

Firstly players aren't coached to 'tackle' these days - they are taught / coached to stand up , jockey , to intercept and pinch balls rather than tackle , especially front players

With DCs pace , mobility and willingness he gives us the chance on occasions to press the ball early up,the pitch and that will be a big help to us in the run in

 

 

[Super]

Blimey if that was high pressing against fulham......

[BobBobSuperBob]

14 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Yep, agree with all this, some good points. It shows how Johnson cant make his mind up. Its basic stuff really. I don't know what he was thinking bringing in slow players with little energy when he wants a busy little team. I can only guess Djuric is a plan b option and next season he will look to bring in a couple of pacey strikers. Hegeler is a strange one, he jogs around like it's preseason. At 28, I can't see how he can change his ways in English football. Tomlin will never fit into that plan either. We've got the individual talent, just the wrong mix of players for what Johnson says he wants. 

Again I agree with you here Jon regarding recent recruitment and LT

it suggests

a) As you suggest, that they are part of a Plan B / Clubs in the bag

b) LJ has changed his philosophy (His comments yesterday suggest not)

c) He is being persuaded to have / given players to work with

 

Personally , it doesn't appear to be B , C Imfind hard to believe and would be very dissapointed / disgruntled if this was so (MA was quite clear LJ has the final,say)

 

So I'm left with A , which is ok , My concern , like you is that his mind is muddled and it's strikingly clear for me, personally, that he overthinks and complicates 

My abiding hope is that people like JP and experienced pros like AW Will advise him to,strip it back and keep things simple for the run in

Personally I wonder whether the analysis part of the game has gone too far and coaches are beating themselves before they get to select their side

Heard yesterday that Karanaka at Middlesbrough provides 18 page dossiers on the opposition to his players !!

Personally - Be aware of oppositions methodology, nullify any gems they have , know their set pieces and strengths and weaknesses but don't turn it into the planning for a military invasion !

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, Rascal said:

We can play a high intensity pressing game for 90 minutes, but we have one of the youngest fittest squads in the league, and our fitness coaches and sports science team are the dogs bollox. Every player as their own specific fitness training program and diet, and it shows on the pitch every game even when we play twice a week. 

I'm sure the fitness / science coaches are good Rascal

But to do it well the coaches also have to be good and the players have to have the willingness and mental ability to know and  perform their role

so on a positive note - looks like your set up is looking healthy at the moment ! 

[Tears in rain]

39 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Some good points in this post Jon

The pressing game can be played for 90 mins , two games in a week if it's done correctly and you have the players to impose it

To do it correctly / successfully requires good work on the coaching ground , you don't press for 90mins but do it in waves when both shape wise and energy wise as a team you are ready to do it 

Should be triggered by the front player(s) at the right times and requires every player to take part , not only those pressing the ball but others adjusting positionally as the press takes place - One or two players not committed to it and at this level you will get picked off

I think what you've highlighted @JonDolman is that a number of players are not necessarily suited to a high press game - You reasonably mention Hegler and Duric

There also,appears to be one or two (AM & LT spring to mind) who are 'not of the mindset' to take part in a high press which makes it nigh on impossible

Agree with you Jon that our recruiting , or at least some of it has not been done with this tactic as a foremost thought

I like the high press , done well,  like Huddersfield , Liverpool at their best,  it's very effective

Continued selection changes also tends to make the press as a style of play very difficult if not impossible to do,consistently and successfully as it's vital that players know and understand their roles in it as well as knowing those around them and trust them

One cog out the wheel and it can quickly fail

 

If LJ wants to play a pressing game which he appears or appeared to like he needs to

Recruit specifically for a certain type for a certain role

Move on any players not %100 committed or willing to be so

Ensure consistent selection

Spend a lot of time on the training ground  

 

I do think our recruitment doesn't seem to follow LJs philosophies necessarily

Yesterday he said in I/v he wants '11 little bees' buzzing around playing good football ( That doesn't sound very good written on here tbf to LJ - my interpretation was a mobile flowing footballing style with interchanging positionally etc) but the recruiting doesn't necessarily reflect that 

Clubs in the bag (Something I'd like to have) ?       Possibly

I do think Lee has become confused in his approach and I don't like that he (As he's said numerous times) picks an eleven and formation / plan for each game

 

Id much prefer us to have a definitive method and stick with it for the vast majority of time , with a decent alternative plan B , and in time an occasionally used Plan C

Spend %80 of your coaching time on Method / Plan A Lee

%20 on your chosen Method / plan B

When you've got your preferred method well drilled , you can spend more time improving B and C

At times it appears as if we are asking different players , sometimes in different positions , trying to follow and impose a specific game plan for a specific opposition - That's a lot to ask of any player , even the very top top players

Players knowing their roles and knowing and trusting their teammates around them is a massive part of any decent side

Please Lee - Some consistency in selection and Method / plan and more concentration on how we play will serve us well for the rest of the season

 

On another but connected note

Personally I think DC is a massive help defensively to us , as well as a potent attacking threat - I saw a comment that he never tackles

Firstly players aren't coached to 'tackle' these days - they are taught / coached to stand up , jockey , to intercept and pinch balls rather than tackle , especially front players

With DCs pace , mobility and willingness he gives us the chance on occasions to press the ball early up,the pitch and that will be a big help to us in the run in

 

 

Think you've got everything sorted in this post.

Agree the thing with pressing is you can't do it all game and need to do so st the right time. This demands a lot of users tanning and communication and requires everyone to buy into it.

This is why Huddersfield are so good this year.

Coach has the pressing ethos and then went and got players he fit this ethos. He came from working with Klopp I believe. The players in Germany are typically high pressers as well e.g (RB Leipzig)

LJ seemed to have brought players for two different plans. 

Would 4-3-3 get the best out of the squad? 

Hegeler in the middle of 3 seems ideal, alongside Brownhill/Smith/Reid/Bryan etc 

Cotterill coming in has been massive as well he does a defensive job better then others in a winger capacity. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, MattRSp95 said:

Think you've got everything sorted in this post.

Agree the thing with pressing is you can't do it all game and need to do so st the right time. This demands a lot of users tanning and communication and requires everyone to buy into it.

This is why Huddersfield are so good this year.

Coach has the pressing ethos and then went and got players he fit this ethos. He came from working with Klopp I believe. The players in Germany are typically high pressers as well e.g (RB Leipzig)

LJ seemed to have brought players for two different plans. 

Would 4-3-3 get the best out of the squad? 

Hegeler in the middle of 3 seems ideal, alongside Brownhill/Smith/Reid/Bryan etc 

Cotterill coming in has been massive as well he does a defensive job better then others in a winger capacity. 

Paramount Matt

One player switches off or doesn't join in and good sides in this division will pick you off

Another paramount is consistent selection !!!

Its a method to practice and work on for hours on the training ground before you release it in games - its a popular 'in' tactic at the moment but it's not a tactic to do %75 well , not at this or higher levels 

[Tears in rain]

1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Paramount Matt

One player switches off or doesn't join in and good sides in this division will pick you off

Another paramount is consistent selection !!!

Its a method to practice and work on for hours on the training ground before you release it in games - its a popular 'in' tactic at the moment but it's not a tactic to do %75 well , not at this or higher levels 

Exactly I think this has been our issue. 

Squads ben changed so many times this year that any understanding gets lost.

I said in another thread about back four needing to be consistent for the same reason.  

Probably why sides drive straight through the midfield or isolate our out of position full backs.

I really hope that city can get it to work though!

[Fiale]

@BobBobSuperBob This is what worries me, Lee said he wanted a high pressing game (quick passing, possession based football) but the players he has signed are not able / suited to do it. It makes no sense and suggest that we recruited what we could due to panic more than recruited players that suit what we want to do as a team. 

 

If we were losing games but playing a game even close to the football Huddersfield play, I would be all for giving him more time as I would see that there was something there that might metamorphise. But Derby away for 45 minutes and a big team cup performance type game in 5 months just does not fill me with confidence - we will see in the coming games, but so far over the year he has been here nothing on the pitch remotely resembles what he claims he wants and that has to be worrying. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, Fiale said:

@BobBobSuperBob This is what worries me, Lee said he wanted a high pressing game (quick passing, possession based football) but the players he has signed are not able / suited to do it. It makes no sense and suggest that we recruited what we could due to panic more than recruited players that suit what we want to do as a team. 

 

If we were losing games but playing a game even close to the football Huddersfield play, I would be all for giving him more time as I would see that there was something there that might metamorphise. But Derby away for 45 minutes and a big team cup performance type game in 5 months just does not fill me with confidence - we will see in the coming games, but so far over the year he has been here nothing on the pitch remotely resembles what he claims he wants and that has to be worrying. 

Oh don't misread me - I'm totally with you 

We should have seen real progress in our methodology by now ( I know some posters will debate they have)

Like you - The recruitment puzzles me with tools for plan B my only explanation

I could see the theory at least in the recruitment of JB , COD , JP to a large degree

I like BW as a no nonsense centre half but he's not a 'perfect fit' in the 'footballing philosophy' (with his distribution)

MD & JH have merits in their own rights , you could argue JH fits the footballing philosophy but not the high press

MD definitely has skills to use but doesn't really fit the philosophy or the high press really

MT I see as a wildcard / free hit and a ideal partner for MD at present time , if we go 4-4-2 (Plan B ?)

DC , albeit a last minute emergency , as I said on deadline day , will IMHO be our best signing and may well be our 'signing of the season' 

 

We talk about plan A and Plan B but I'm really not sure LJ has a Plan A , Plan B 

I think he has an A-Z of ideas

The evidence suggests as he has spoken often of , is that he picks a team (and often formation) to win a particular game

That is one of my major concerns with him - I'm not sure anyone , let alone him as a inexperienced coach, can coach so many different variations, and in my experience of professional footballers , with many , if not most they switch off after a limited amount of instruction - as a generality they are athletes not students or academics

 

He needs (IMHO) , if he wants to succeed ,  to strip his 'philosophies' right back and get back to some basics and some stability and develop a proper 'core' in the squad (Something we badly lack IMO) ...

.... Get some points, develop the spirit , survive relegation and have a major rethink in the summer would be my advice

(That's if he does survive the journey and if we survive relegation )

 

He needs to simplify everything now IMHO

Maybe he's started

 

[AppyDAZE]

3 hours ago, Super said:

Blimey if that was high pressing against fulham......

That was the so-called "stand off and admire" approach often seen when things start to get really bad. The shit scared to be the next player to give the ball back to them game plan

[Fiale]

@BobBobSuperBob   agreed, I guess we can just wait ti out and see what comes out off all this. I will add from another thread I posted on the below as well, I know people will knock me because Newcastle and all that but...

 

I just watched the Newcastle game and feel pretty despondent again - yeah it was a plucky, in your face, hassle the opponent game - but we did not play any real football in that match. I know it was Newcastle, great point and all, but help think the occasion masked a pretty plucky but mediocre display.

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, Fiale said:

@BobBobSuperBob   agreed, I guess we can just wait ti out and see what comes out off all this. I will add from another thread I posted on the below as well, I know people will knock me because Newcastle and all that but...

 

I just watched the Newcastle game and feel pretty despondent again - yeah it was a plucky, in your face, hassle the opponent game - but we did not play any real football in that match. I know it was Newcastle, great point and all, but help think the occasion masked a pretty plucky but mediocre display.

I have concerns that we raised our game due to the occasion and away support

() and that's great 

 

But that's got to be the benchmark now not the pinnacle

im very much in the majorly concerned camp and have been for some time but my biggest encouragement was the talk of some individual performances ( See @samo IIs post) in addition to the spirit shown

I will watch the game but even as someone who doesn't rate LJ at all I don't think ,especially in our current state, with confidence shot , that we were ever going to play Newcastle off the park at any stage , or even go toe to toe with Shelvey & co in a footballing contest and it would be unrealistic to do so even at our very best

 

Im going to take the individual performances and spirit as a potentially very hopeful sign in our upcoming fight

 

I'm hoping it wasn't a oneboff cup final / rise to the occasion performance and we dont fall back to type - I've said on a couple of threads , I actually think Villa next may help us to cushion the 'fall' off a game in front of 59,000 )

 

(Cue a 4-0 stuffing !!!   )

[samo II]

@BobBobSuperBob - Pretty much what you've said; we did set up to pass them off the park or play through them with elegance or finesse.  We hit the channels and Wilbs as quick as we could, and played off the scraps, all the while pressing and harassing them.

I respect @Fiale'a take; wouldn't suggest we out played them.  Not at all.  But where needed we won battles, or made life hard for players who should by right have the easy beating of us.  I can't be displeased with that application.

I also hope this isn't flash in the pan, and if nothing else Tuesday provides almost a carbon-copy game ('big' team away, sell-out away crowd, expensive opponents managed by a experienced campaigner), so we'll know soon if this is a trend or not.

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, samo II said:

@BobBobSuperBob - Pretty much what you've said; we did set up to pass them off the park or play through them with elegance or finesse.  We hit the channels and Wilbs as quick as we could, and played off the scraps, all the while pressing and harassing them.

I respect @Fiale'a take; wouldn't suggest we out played them.  Not at all.  But where needed we won battles, or made life hard for players who should by right have the easy beating of us.  I can't be displeased with that application.

I also hope this isn't flash in the pan, and if nothing else Tuesday provides almost a carbon-copy game ('big' team away, sell-out away crowd, expensive opponents managed by a experienced campaigner), so we'll know soon if this is a trend or not.

That's good enough for me Samo  

and as a supporter , personally brings a level of satisfaction (In any game) 

 

 

[samo II]

2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

That's good enough for me Samo  

and as a supporter , personally brings a level of satisfaction (In any game) 

 

 

I think this is the trick - I'm sceptical of LJ's ability to progress us in this league in the way he's set out to (super-tactically flexible, passing team), but if he can pick effective and hard-working line ups across the next 13 games and through that keep us up, we then can reassess in the summer and still in this league.

We have to earn the right to play in this league; we cannot presume to have that, we must always compete, and we did that yesterday.  I hope we can keep doing so.

[exAtyeoMax]

6 hours ago, Rascal said:

We can play a high intensity pressing game for 90 minutes, but we have one of the youngest fittest squads in the league, and our fitness coaches and sports science team are the dogs bollox. Every player as their own specific fitness training program and diet, and it shows on the pitch every game even when we play twice a week. 

Adam Matthews has his own specific training program, and diet, and it shows on the pitch every game he plays

[Septic Peg]

50 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Adam Matthews has his own specific training program, and diet, and it shows on the pitch every game he plays

Yep. Welsh rarebit for breakfast and unlimited pints of Brains SA. Training program consists of walking the dog twice weekly.

[exAtyeoMax]

5 minutes ago, Septic Peg said:

Yep. Welsh rarebit for breakfast and unlimited pints of Brains SA. Training program consists of walking the dog twice weekly.

he doesn't venture out of the county, mind. Wouldn't know how to get back in.

[Septic Peg]

1 minute ago, exAtyeoMax said:

he doesn't venture out of the county, mind. Wouldn't know how to get back in.

He couldn't do it anyway since Tammy wrote off his Merc!