Danny Wilson - where it all started

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

The team regularly included six + local lads. It was hardly Manchester City.

Yes, but with the quality we had, we should have been too good for that division.  Christian Roberts's autobiography gives a pretty good indication of what life was like at Ashton Gate at the time...

[BS4 on Tour...]

I liked Danny, and when he was sacked, his comment about "I accept finishing 3rd two seasons running isn't good enough for a club the size of Bristol City" oozed class and dignity...

[B block]

11 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I liked Danny, and when he was sacked, his comment about "I accept finishing 3rd two seasons running isn't good enough for a club the size of Bristol City" oozed class and dignity...

Johnson makes Wilson look like Alex Ferguson. 

[Cowshed]

19 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Yes, but with the quality we had, we should have been too good for that division.  Christian Roberts's autobiography gives a pretty good indication of what life was like at Ashton Gate at the time...

Butler? Murray? Roberts? Miller ... My mind is not what it was but only Luke Wilkshire and a young Lita consistently played at higher levels in their careers. Tinnion could have. Peacock did for a season or two.

It was not a star studded XI. The team was based on local players.

 

 

[CyderInACan]

17 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I liked Danny, and when he was sacked, his comment about "I accept finishing 3rd two seasons running isn't good enough for a club the size of Bristol City" oozed class and dignity...

. . . or sarcasm 

[Wanderingred]

What people tend to forget about those days is that whilst we blew it every year, that division was immensly strong, the strongest it had ever been and the timing was unfortunate. Wilsons best season was 2002-03 and we lost out to moneybags Wigan and Cardiff who had spent millions, plus a Crewe side with a strikeforce of Dean Ashton and Rob Hulse which was crazily good for League 1 at the time. There were also the likes of Stoke, Millwall, Reading, Oldham, Brighton and QPR in previous years who had very good sides.

We definitely should have gone up in 2004 though. By then, the strong sides had mostly gone and there was no excuse so Wilson had to go. That Brighton game is still my biggest footballing heartbreak. I've always wondered how things would have turned out if we went up that year.

[Kingswoodactor]

10 minutes ago, Wanderingred said:

What people tend to forget about those days is that whilst we blew it every year, that division was immensly strong, the strongest it had ever been and the timing was unfortunate. Wilsons best season was 2002-03 and we lost out to moneybags Wigan and Cardiff who had spent millions, plus a Crewe side with a strikeforce of Dean Ashton and Rob Hulse which was crazily good for League 1 at the time. There were also the likes of Stoke, Millwall, Reading, Oldham, Brighton and QPR in previous years who had very good sides.

We definitely should have gone up in 2004 though. By then, the strong sides had mostly gone and there was no excuse so Wilson had to go. That Brighton game is still my biggest footballing heartbreak. I've always wondered how things would have turned out if we went up that year.

We'd have gone up, consolidated, and then the following season come straight back down again. 

The Bristol City cycle. 

[Septic Peg]

1 hour ago, tinman85 said:

I was always a Scott Davidson fan. He had the Simon Jordan ruthless streak. What is Scott up to these days? 

Probably playing the 'keys' somewhere... actually he is involved in www.voucher cloud.com so still got a few bob. 

50 minutes ago, Midlands Robin said:

Moyes has gone on record saying he had accepted the job in principle and was flying back from his holidays to discuss terms when he landed and discovered Pulis had accepted the job and signed a contract.

Oh what could have been, indeed.

Really? So SL discussed and offered it to Moyes and then did a complete 180 and gave it to Pulis as Moyes came back from his holibobs? That's shocking behaviour. Sort of thing Higgs would have done. My respect for SL just dropped a few notches... disappointing.

45 minutes ago, myol'man said:

Sacked in the dressing room at the Mil. Stad.

 

Squad never had a problem 'socialising' back then ! 

Didn't realise he had the boot in the changing rooms after the game.

Only time I've ever seen City lose in the flesh (not been this season!) and still don't know why Lita didn't start. I also still reckon Leon Knight dived a few times.

The number of times I saw Tins, Phillips, Scotty et al down town on a Saturday night... lots of beer and hangers on... 

[Sixtyseconds]

Spin Doctor Robbo says the opening poster is a making an assertion.

Fourteen chaps hit the like button without really reading the opening post.

That is how Trump got elected.

 

[Red-Robbo]

10 hours ago, Benjam!n Ultra said:

No. It's that SL asked us to trust him on his judgement to replace Wilson with Tinnion, who transformed one of, if not the, best footballing sides at that level into a team destined for League 2. 

So why should we have ever have trusted him on managerial appointments afterwards is the point. 

If we were one of the best footballing sides at that level, we'd have been promoted, Ben. 

I like DW and those years were enjoyable, not least because we usually won at home, but we were going nowhere.

A lot of people supported giving the manager role to the very popular Tinnion at the time. It was a gamble and in retrospect, a mistake, but at least the plug was pulled on his reign fairly rapidly.

Tinnion was nothing like Lee Johnson: Lee had managed two clubs when he came here; Brian was a rookie. He hadn't even taken all his coaching badges at that stage. The team was full of BT pals (perhaps the root of the problems. He wouldn't drop his friends); by the time LJ arrived, no one from his playing days was at City. Brian's teams were outclassed and thrashed; Lee's underperform to disappointing losses and draws.

It's bloody easy to sit behind a computer screen and criticise Lansdown for his managerial choices. 

Let's remind ourselves that the vast majority of fans thought Coppell and O'Driscoll were GREAT appointments. Even LJ and McInnes had more supporters than doubters when they were appointed. Scroll back to last January on here if you don't believe me. Lots of posters seem to have developed highly selective memory.

In terms of experience v young managers, it's worth remembering every manager was new to the trade once. How many clubs had Eddie Howe managed before Bournemouth appointed him?

 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, milo1111 said:

Good post. LJ is tinnion mark II. Beyond belief that SL has done it again. LJ has a much better squad though hence we havent taken any hammerings but he is just as out of his depth as tins was then. I think the job came too early for both of them if anything.

SL clearly is awful at choosing managers and that is why we keep on having to sack them. I wish he would leave well alone and leave it to someone who knows what they are doing.

Of all the arguments I've heard about LJ, this is probably one of the best ones (it might have been put forward before, I just haven't seen it). It says that despite Lee, we've only be losing by small margins because of the players.

It's still a point of view but it has more basis in fact than some of the BS that's been put forward by some (if people cannot be serious with their arguments on LJ, the likes of SL will only see personal attacks) - this is not an indication that I've had an epiphany, just an argument that I can live with.

As to DW, took us so close and we can only wonder what could have been. GJ, in my view, did bring in the era of professionalism.

[Olé]

38 minutes ago, Septic Peg said:

actually he is involved in www.voucher cloud.com so still got a few bob

They sold to Vodafone a couple of years ago, I believe.

[Septic Peg]

Just now, Olé said:

They sold to Vodafone a couple of years ago, I believe.

Think he is still involved. The HQ is in Bristol. Vodafone are majority shareholders though, you are right.

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, Midlands Robin said:

Moyes has gone on record saying he had accepted the job in principle and was flying back from his holidays to discuss terms when he landed and discovered Pulis had accepted the job and signed a contract.

Oh what could have been, indeed.

But that wouldn't have looked a silly decision at the time.

Tony Pulis's Gillingham had just beaten David Moyes's Preston to promotion and Pulis's stock was high through his experience at that level with the Gills. Moyes had only just hung his boots up and was a managerial newbie.

[Midlands Robin]

3 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

But that wouldn't have looked a silly decision at the time.

Tony Pulis's Gillingham had just beaten David Moyes's Preston to promotion and Pulis's stock was high through his experience at that level with the Gills. Moyes had only just hung his boots up and was a managerial newbie.

Yeah, completely understand that. Obviously its a lot easier to look at the world with 20/20 hindsight.

[pongo88]

3 hours ago, Midlands Robin said:

I think a lot of people gave forgotten that under Wilson, In his last three seasons we topped the table at some point and in his final season, we were top of the table for several months. 

It was that as much as anything else that got him the sack.

In the final season I could never understand why he had such little faith in Leroy Litta. He hardly played in the few matches. We only needed an extra 2 points to gain automatic promotion, but there were so many games where the points just slipped away - eg away to Swindon, home to Brighton. A few more goals from Lita and we would have been promoted

[BigAl&Toby]

11 hours ago, Benjam!n Ultra said:

No. It's that SL asked us to trust him on his judgement to replace Wilson with Tinnion, who transformed one of, if not the, best footballing sides at that level into a team destined for League 2. 

So why should we have ever have trusted him on managerial appointments afterwards is the point. 

**** me! We're agreeing again

The point for me is that DW took over a side that was shit and turned it into a good one. Exciting football and consistent end of season finishes. Ok we ****** up in Cardiff but we had the basis of a decent side.

Then along came SL. Who appointed Tinnion. And downhill we went, Perhaps that was his BCFC dream. Wither on the vine, build a multi purpose stadium complex under the guise of BCFC and Make Bristol Proud?

Roll the clock on and we now hear LJ talking about socialising together. Doing what?

Hopefully not going out on the piss or fighting in Corn Street. Look where that left DW......

[Olé]

14 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

In terms of experience v young managers, it's worth remembering every manager was new to the trade once. How many clubs had Eddie Howe managed before Bournemouth appointed him?

Eddie Howe had worked in the Bournemouth youth team and developed as a coach and experimented with his ideas under an existing manager before eventually being promoted to be their caretaker manager and then permanent manager.

Lee Johnson served no such apprenticeship. There isn't any comparison between a young manager who has worked his way through the ranks to achieve the role of manager, and one who has talked his way directly into managerial positions.

It'd good that you mentioned Eddie Howe as it is obvious that SL aspires for LJ to become his version. There is no similarity:

Howe was an instant success - he beat a 17 point relegation deficit, won a club record 8 games in a row and promotion the next season despite being under a transfer embargo, went to Burnley to spend two comfortable Championship seasons.

Absolutely nothing LJ has done in the past two years bears any comparison, and Johnson has now spent in a year with us more money than Howe spent in his first 4 years put together (17 point escape, promotion, 2 mid-table Championship years).

[Tears in rain]

12 hours ago, OddBallJim said:

 

I miss Danny Wilson's City. We played fantastic football back then.

Oh how that play-off final was such a balls up.

Hard enough living 10 miles from Brighton. People never let you forget it.

[Natchfever]

1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

But that wouldn't have looked a silly decision at the time.

Tony Pulis's Gillingham had just beaten David Moyes's Preston to promotion and Pulis's stock was high through his experience at that level with the Gills. Moyes had only just hung his boots up and was a managerial newbie.

Agreed. ******* stupid bringing in an inexperienced manager just because he was an ex player.

[Red-Robbo]

15 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

Agreed. ******* stupid bringing in an inexperienced manager just because he was an ex player.

Maybe not in Moyse's case, eh?

Or maybe the Bristol City reverse-Midas effect would have strangled his career in its infancy?  

[handsofclay]

1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

If we were one of the best footballing sides at that level, we'd have been promoted, Ben. 

I like DW and those years were enjoyable, not least because we usually won at home, but we were going nowhere.

A lot of people supported giving the manager role to the very popular Tinnion at the time. It was a gamble and in retrospect, a mistake, but at least the plug was pulled on his reign fairly rapidly.

Tinnion was nothing like Lee Johnson: Lee had managed two clubs when he came here; Brian was a rookie. He hadn't even taken all his coaching badges at that stage. The team was full of BT pals (perhaps the root of the problems. He wouldn't drop his friends); by the time LJ arrived, no one from his playing days was at City. Brian's teams were outclassed and thrashed; Lee's underperform to disappointing losses and draws.

It's bloody easy to sit behind a computer screen and criticise Lansdown for his managerial choices. 

Let's remind ourselves that the vast majority of fans thought Coppell and O'Driscoll were GREAT appointments. Even LJ and McInnes had more supporters than doubters when they were appointed. Scroll back to last January on here if you don't believe me. Lots of posters seem to have developed highly selective memory.

In terms of experience v young managers, it's worth remembering every manager was new to the trade once. How many clubs had Eddie Howe managed before Bournemouth appointed him?

 

...And how many clubs had Alan Dicks managed or Harry Thickett? Both managers who got us into the top flight. As you correctly state, it is so easy with hindsight behind a keyboard to be critical regarding appointments. There are many on here continually bashing the LJ appointment because he was young and lacked experience at this level. Yet one of the biggest disappointments, for me, as a City manager was the vastly experienced Denis Smith. Like LJ, he came in and saved us from relegation, but the following year we were a shambles as a club despite this experienced boss at the helm. I recall him once saying that he was too soft at City, despite having the reputation prior to his appointment and since of being a tough as old boots manager. 

 

[Merrick's Marvels]

12 hours ago, Dr Balls said:

My recollection is that Wilson wanted money for a sports psychologist for the players after the play off final and that was the final straw for SL who then sacked him. 

Unlike this season under LJ where a few of the players are showing signs that they might need a psychiatrist before he's finished!

Under Wilson the players had access to a sports psychologist long before the play off final

[handsofclay]

4 hours ago, Septic Peg said:

Was GJ selected by Keith Dawe? We all know Cotts was. 

Or was GJ the only Lansdown choice that actually worked?

Edit: KITR just said he was a Lansdown choice. 

Also never knew it was between Pulis and Moyes. Completely mad to think what could have been...

If I recall correctly, the board was split between Pulis and Moyes and Scott Davison as chairman had the casting vote. Davison wanted Moyes and it was probably via Davison that Moyes got the impression that the job was his. Yet, bizarrely, Davison chose not to use his casting vote in favour of the candidate he wanted and went instead, as a conciliatory gesture, with Pulis! I got the impression back then that Davison was doing all he could to keep the relatively new board member SL on board and SL wanted Pulis.

[Red-Robbo]

37 minutes ago, Olé said:

Eddie Howe had worked in the Bournemouth youth team and developed as a coach and experimented with his ideas under an existing manager before eventually being promoted to be their caretaker manager and then permanent manager.

Lee Johnson served no such apprenticeship. There isn't any comparison between a young manager who has worked his way through the ranks to achieve the role of manager, and one who has talked his way directly into managerial positions.

It'd good that you mentioned Eddie Howe as it is obvious that SL aspires for LJ to become his version. There is no similarity:

Howe was an instant success - he beat a 17 point relegation deficit, won a club record 8 games in a row and promotion the next season despite being under a transfer embargo, went to Burnley to spend two comfortable Championship seasons.

Absolutely nothing LJ has done in the past two years bears any comparison, and Johnson has now spent in a year with us more money than Howe spent in his first 4 years put together (17 point escape, promotion, 2 mid-table Championship years).

And I'm not trying to compare them, Rob.

Just saying that Howe had not previously managed. 

Lee helped us pull clear of the relegation threat last season. His problems come, it seems, from an inability to cope when the going gets tough; an inability to lift his squad's confidence.

But the point of my post was that good and great managers all start somewhere. Another poster suggested on a different thread that Johnson might become a decent manager as time progresses. If he learns he might. His coaching can surely only improve, not get worse! 

[alexukhc]

Thing with Tinnion, he was great on the pitch, very vocal and made his point wherever he was playing. Great captains don't make great managers. Just ask Paul Ince, Bryan Robson, Terry Butcher, Alan Shearer for example

[Xiled]

2 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

Let's remind ourselves that the vast majority of fans thought Coppell and O'Driscoll were GREAT appointments. Even LJ and McInnes had more supporters than doubters when they were appointed. Scroll back to last January on here if you don't believe me. Lots of posters seem to have developed highly selective memory.

Absolutely on the money.

Just because they didn't work out, it doesn't mean they were bad appointments.  The vast majority of English managers coaches/managers are sacked within one to three years.  There seems to be a view on here that we are so attractive that we can just appoint any manager we want.  It doesn't work like that and I can completely understand the reasons why each of our managers since Danny Wilson were given a chance.  They all had something to offer at the time.

Despite the competition in L1 when Danny Wilson was in charge, it isn't fair to compare his record to Lee Johnson's in the Championship.  If L1 was tough 10 years ago, how should we view Aston Villa who have spent £60M to get 9 more points than us?!  I think this division is a total nightmare for clubs in our position.  Although I would like to see LJ relieved of his duties I have a lot of sympathy for how difficult the job is.

[southvillekiddy]

When we compare the Wilson era to what we have now the most significant difference is the present absence of a defensive coach of the calibre and hardness of Frank Barlow. We didn't score many goals but lost only 10 games in the Millenium play-off season, Wilson's last, we scored 58 goals conceding  37 finishing 3rd with 82 points! Lost only twice at Ashton Gate when it truly was a fortress.

 

[southvillekiddy]

2 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

Let's remind ourselves that the vast majority of fans thought Coppell and O'Driscoll were GREAT appointments.

 

Agree with you about SOD mate. Lots of noise about how great he was at Doncaster. However there were mutterings about Coppell, confirmed in his first interview when bizarrely he said he didn't know why he had taken the City job!

[Merrick's Marvels]

4 hours ago, Midlands Robin said:

Moyes has gone on record saying he had accepted the job in principle and was flying back from his holidays to discuss terms when he landed and discovered Pulis had accepted the job and signed a contract.

Oh what could have been, indeed.

That's not how I remember Richard Latham's account of it.

He's as reliable as it gets as a local journalist and also knows Moyes well.

I'm sure Latham's account, which I read again recently, is that because Moyes was on holiday in America there would be a delay in interviewing him for the job but the Board wanted to press ahead and so had appointed Pulis by the time he got back to the UK.

In addition, Latham reported Moyes as saying that despite his interest in talking to us about the job, Preston were not keen on letting him leave. 

I will have read this in a recent piece for his Sunday Independent column.  

 

3 hours ago, Septic Peg said:

Probably playing the 'keys' somewhere... actually he is involved in www.voucher cloud.com so still got a few bob. 

Really? So SL discussed and offered it to Moyes and then did a complete 180 and gave it to Pulis as Moyes came back from his holibobs? That's shocking behaviour. Sort of thing Higgs would have done. My respect for SL just dropped a few notches... disappointing.

Didn't realise he had the boot in the changing rooms after the game.

Only time I've ever seen City lose in the flesh (not been this season!) and still don't know why Lita didn't start. I also still reckon Leon Knight dived a few times.

The number of times I saw Tins, Phillips, Scotty et al down town on a Saturday night... lots of beer and hangers on... 

No.

Lansdown wasn't even Chairman then - John Laycock was.

Laycock is a gAss'ole and his preference was for Pulis, another gAss'ole of course. So Pulis it was. He'd been over-ruled on previous appointments when only Vice Chairman to Scott Davidson - notably on Davidson's leftfield choice of The Benny.