Would City games sell out with cheaper prices?

[reddogkev]

1 hour ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Not entirely circumstances. Huddersfield's expectations did not match ours in the Championship. They were as stunned as anyone that they performed the way they did. Simply put our level of investment in the team could not survive if we halved the cost of our STs.

They are able to offer that deal in the Premiership because of the windfall that has come with promotion.

As much as I sympathise with your romantic view of the footballing world, it's a business, pure and simple. 

'Club' is just a word in the company name.

 

The suits and money grabbers involved want it to be a business, the fans want it to be a passion.

What you have stated is exactly everything wrong with the modern game - Football should not be a business, it should be treated as a sport that captures the hearts of the world.

[TBW]

I'd go more regularly if it were £10 or £15. Can I afford £30, sure... Just don't want to pay that for 90 minutes of football.

[wendyredredrobin]

3 minutes ago, Robin TBW said:

I'd go more regularly if it were £10 or £15. Can I afford £30, sure... Just don't want to pay that for 90 minutes of football.

Lucky to get a whole 90 minutes from this lot.

[BRISTOL86]

34 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

The suits and money grabbers involved want it to be a business, the fans want it to be a passion.

What you have stated is exactly everything wrong with the modern game - Football should not be a business, it should be treated as a sport that captures the hearts of the world.

I didn't say it was right. Just a sad reality. I agree with you. 

[SecretSam]

It's a complicated equation. There are so msny alternative ways to spend leisure time and disposable income. 

I think making kids' tickets very cheap is the way forward.

[SecretSam]

8 hours ago, Nibor said:

Elasticity is what it's about. In sales bullshit a perfectly elastic price means if you halve it you sell twice as many. Because fans are remarkably loyal customers ticket prices are only a little elastic.

If we halved prices we'd sell more but nowhere near double and we couldn't fit them in anyway.  Makes sense for Bradford but not for us.  If we took 25% off we'd sell a few more but likely not to enough to replace 25% of lost revenue on the ones we sell now.  I think the pricing is about right, less than £20 a game for ST holders. 

What makes sense is lots of incentives for kids to make sure the base goes up in the long term and the club do a pretty good job of that. 

It's not "sales bullshit", Elasticity of Demand is a well-established economic concept.

Otherwise I'm with you.

[SecretSam]

9 hours ago, WTFiGO!?! said:

By average I presume you mean the mean average?  Completely distorted by outliers at the extreme ends of the scale.

Take home £16.67 per hour, as a norm?  I bloody wish.

Living expenses are becoming extortionate.  In real terms, nurses are £3k per annum worse off than they were five years ago.

Also, people that can't commit the time and/or money to a season ticket (available at about £17 per game cheapest) are unlikely to justify paying £25 for 10.

I would be astounded if SL hadn't had business analysts in to advise on the balance between prices and take up and no doubt they will claim they have it about right.

Everyone I know who doesn't attend but would like to state they have basically been priced out.  

The average age of attendee in England is now 50, it was 27 in 1990.  I think that is very telling.

Football is now a luxury for the comfortable.

1. "Mean" and "Average" are the same thing; Median or Mode, perhaps?

2. 1990: 27 years ago. Long time, society, leisure and options have changed dramatically since then.

3. It's a bit rich to criticise a fellow poster for using the Mean Income, then go and base your assertions on...Mean Age. BTW, those 27 year olds in 1990 would be in their 50s now...

[SecretSam]

1 hour ago, reddogkev said:

The suits and money grabbers involved want it to be a business, the fans want it to be a passion.

What you have stated is exactly everything wrong with the modern game - Football should not be a business, it should be treated as a sport that captures the hearts of the world.

It needs to be both. Run it on love and charity and Bristol City FC would be gone in a season

[South Somerset Red]

Ask Bradford City who have adopted the German model. 150 for and adult season ticket and a fiver for a under 11s season ticket. Smart on their part especially on the under 11s, you are creating fans for life. 

[RobintheRed Red]

Last season took my two Grandsons for there first match both aged five to six years old bought there tickets quid a kid great price but paid thirty six pounds each for my daughters to bring them so a total of seventy four pounds i know its not essential took them in Avon packett drinks crisp etc glad to say they loved it took the daughters as i was not prepared to leave the ground if they played up they want to come again but its too expensive for four in south stand should do a cheaper deal

[WTFiGO!?!]

9 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

1. "Mean" and "Average" are the same thing; Median or Mode, perhaps?

2. 1990: 27 years ago. Long time, society, leisure and options have changed dramatically since then.

3. It's a bit rich to criticise a fellow poster for using the Mean Income, then go and base your assertions on...Mean Age. BTW, those 27 year olds in 1990 would be in their 50s now...

1) Mean, median and mode are different types of average, I was just certifying which one was being used.

2) Correct, back then a younger person could typically afford football and there was no need for this discussion.  Nowadays, it is a luxury for the comfortable.  

3) The mean average income is grossly distorted due to a very small % at the highest end of the scale and a very large % (part time, zero hour contracts etc) at the bottom end.  The mode average is likely to be a lot lower than £16.67 p/h.  This is not the case when considering age, unless we have 1000's of toddlers effecting the numbers, which we don't.  The mean average is a more appropriate measurement, when considering age.  It is telling for me that the numbers at football are more commonly made up of older people, given the price of going.  It could be argued that younger people are just less keen to go but I don't believe it, I believe they can't prioritise the expense.

[AshtonGreat]

Modern football is a very expensive luxury. Even if it were £20 a ticket, it's pricey. People might argue that it's half the price of a theatre ticket, but you don't go to the theatre twice a month, do you?

Throw in the fact that City were woeful for most of last season, and the aforementioned lure of the Premier League teams, and it's remarkable that City sold as many seats as they did.

 

 

[SARJ]

9 hours ago, oldrosie said:

I watched an excellent non league game tonight - Trowbridge 2-2 Westbury Res.  Not a copper in sight. No segregation.  £4 and a 10 minute drive and free parking.  Programme, too, and no loud speaker marketing guy.  Why should I want to spend 2-3 hours driving and pay £40 a ticket and struggle to find parking and sit amongst a bunch of foul mouthed yobs.  And all the hassle of booking tickets ... 

Sadly I'm beginning t agree with you. I always used to roast my old man for going to watch teams like Portishead on a Saturday, but when you think about it, fiver entry with a free programme, cheap drinks and snacks, you can drink alcohol pitch side whilst watching the game, and a quality club house with Sky Sports ew afterwards that isn't continuously crammed. Also, you're always guaranteed a tasty game of football that's competitive with lots of naughty tackles flying in. A more enjoyable experience some would say.......

[Welcome To The Jungle]

15 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Not entirely comparable circumstances. Huddersfield's expectations did not match ours in the Championship. They were as stunned as anyone that they performed the way they did. Simply put our level of investment in the team could not survive if we halved the cost of our STs.

They are able to offer that deal in the Premiership because of the windfall that has come with promotion.

As much as I sympathise with your romantic view of the footballing world, it's a business, pure and simple. 

'Club' is just a word in the company name.

 

RIP Football

20 minutes ago, SARJ said:

Sadly I'm beginning t agree with you. I always used to roast my old man for going to watch teams like Portishead on a Saturday, but when you think about it, fiver entry with a free programme, cheap drinks and snacks, you can drink alcohol pitch side whilst watching the game, and a quality club house with Sky Sports ew afterwards that isn't continuously crammed. Also, you're always guaranteed a tasty game of football that's competitive with lots of naughty tackles flying in. A more enjoyable experience some would say.......

That's how I spent the tail end of last season and this season. Brislington, Mangotsfield, Manor Farm etc all put on good shows and your ticket, programme, tea and chips often falls under £10. 

[View from the Dolman]

9 hours ago, oldrosie said:

I watched an excellent non league game tonight - Trowbridge 2-2 Westbury Res.  Not a copper in sight. No segregation.  £4 and a 10 minute drive and free parking.  Programme, too, and no loud speaker marketing guy.  Why should I want to spend 2-3 hours driving and pay £40 a ticket and struggle to find parking and sit amongst a bunch of foul mouthed yobs.  And all the hassle of booking tickets ... 

So part of your beef is where you live? Did the club buy you a house and make you live there?

[Welcome To The Jungle]

8 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

So part of your beef is where you live? Did the club buy you a house and make you live there?

It's probably near his job and/or family. And Bristol is famous for affordable housing options too. 

For many City fans travel is an issue and so cheaper tickets soften the burden. 

[j1974]

If the club lowered the prices I personally feel that it wouldn't make that much of a difference, look at the times the club has made it more affordable like in cup games a tenner adults and a fiver for kids or even quid a kid it hasn't been that well supported, not enough for the club to lower prices on a permanent basis. 

[BRISTOL86]

44 minutes ago, Welcome To The Jungle said:

RIP Football

Don't shoot the messenger!

[Welcome To The Jungle]

30 minutes ago, j1974 said:

If the club lowered the prices I personally feel that it wouldn't make that much of a difference, look at the times the club has made it more affordable like in cup games a tenner adults and a fiver for kids or even quid a kid it hasn't been that well supported, not enough for the club to lower prices on a permanent basis. 

Our biggest gate last season was for a meaningless fixture for us (alredy safe) where the prices were dropped...

[SARJ]

56 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

So part of your beef is where you live? Did the club buy you a house and make you live there?

We don't all have the luxury of being able to spend £400k on a 3-bed semi in Ashton mate.

And the point he was making is that attending a non-league fixture can be a very affordable and enjoyable experience, which it is. His beef is why don't City make games that haven't sold out more affordable i.e. £10 pay on the day?

38 minutes ago, j1974 said:

If the club lowered the prices I personally feel that it wouldn't make that much of a difference, look at the times the club has made it more affordable like in cup games a tenner adults and a fiver for kids or even quid a kid it hasn't been that well supported, not enough for the club to lower prices on a permanent basis. 

The club never make it easy for the part time supporter or casual passing fan. Like the Derby thing coming up, mates rates, 2 x £10 tickets. All well and good but a ST holder has to make the effort to contact their mates, get the money, book the tickets etc. Why not just simply say "£10 pay on the day". Any Tom, Dick or Harry can turn up with one note and quickly buy a ticket, job done.

[View from the Dolman]

2 minutes ago, SARJ said:

We don't all have the luxury of being able to spend £400k on a 3-bed semi in Ashton mate.

And the point he was making is that attending a non-league fixture can be a very affordable and enjoyable experience, which it is. His beef is why don't City make games that haven't sold out more affordable i.e. £10 pay on the day?

I don't have a £400k 3-bed semi in Ashton (and couldn't afford one) either so I not sure what your point is.

It just seems a bit odd to extolling a non-league football club for being 10 minutes away as if they've done him a favour by picking such a location... and if they made games £10 on the day for every non-sell out, you've found a way of losing every season ticket holder. Genius.

[j1974]

56 minutes ago, SARJ said:

We don't all have the luxury of being able to spend £400k on a 3-bed semi in Ashton mate.

And the point he was making is that attending a non-league fixture can be a very affordable and enjoyable experience, which it is. His beef is why don't City make games that haven't sold out more affordable i.e. £10 pay on the day?

The club never make it easy for the part time supporter or casual passing fan. Like the Derby thing coming up, mates rates, 2 x £10 tickets. All well and good but a ST holder has to make the effort to contact their mates, get the money, book the tickets etc. Why not just simply say "£10 pay on the day". Any Tom, Dick or Harry can turn up with one note and quickly buy a ticket, job done.

As already mentioned how many season ticket holders would you lose if £10 pay on the day became a regular thing?

What you have to remember is we moan about the ticket prices but also the same people would moan about the lack of investment in our club if they seen poor facilities and lack of recruitment in players at the moment the club seems to have the balance about right. 

[Xiled]

18 hours ago, SARJ said:

Understood Graham.

But as this thread has developed, it comes down to 1 simple thing: would the club rather see a full stadium each week with low ticket prices, or a half empty stadium but good profits. Sadly, the latter is preferred by most clubs.

I'm sure the club would rather see the stadium full (although the parking permit issue could be significant and would play havoc with many fans' current matchday travel arrangements).  But, as has been qualified in previous posts, gates of around 18 to 21k allow for headroom if we start to move up the Championship.  Selling to full capacity cheaply makes it very difficult for the club to increase their income based on improving results.

Another point that hasn't been mentioned is that the 2017/18 ticket price is considerably better value in terms of facilities, comfort and view compared to the last days of the Williams Stand and East End.  Although Steve Lansdown paid for the redevelopment, I think the club are offering a much better matchday experience than all the years since 1979 when I attended my first game.  That has to be worth a few quid more.

1 hour ago, Welcome To The Jungle said:

Our biggest gate last season was for a meaningless fixture for us (alredy safe) where the prices were dropped...

And the stadium was still not sold out.

Until we're playing the big teams in the Premier League, there's little the club can do to sell home games to capacity.

[Welcome To The Jungle]

6 minutes ago, Xiled said:

And the stadium was still not sold out.

Until we're playing the big teams in the Premier League, there's little the club can do to sell home games to capacity.

It isn't just about filling the ground. Arsenal fill their ground every week (although not so much) and they treat their fans like complete scum, though any football fan who is willing to pay over 1k for a season ticket deserves to be fleeced for every penny for actively ruining the game. 

I digress. Football is the peoples game and remains this way in every country bar the UK. It should be affordable and accessible for everyone. If it means we don't get to spend 5 million on a new striker then so be it. That said, going to the football regularly is a habit, so lowering the prices may take a year or two to truly start seeing 25k plus on a regular basis, but it would happen. 

[j1974]

20 minutes ago, Welcome To The Jungle said:

It isn't just about filling the ground. Arsenal fill their ground every week (although not so much) and they treat their fans like complete scum, though any football fan who is willing to pay over 1k for a season ticket deserves to be fleeced for every penny for actively ruining the game. 

I digress. Football is the peoples game and remains this way in every country bar the UK. It should be affordable and accessible for everyone. If it means we don't get to spend 5 million on a new striker then so be it. That said, going to the football regularly is a habit, so lowering the prices may take a year or two to truly start seeing 25k plus on a regular basis, but it would happen. 

[reddogkev]

Very good points raised above, but I'd quickly say that a tenner would be too cheap - but absolutely nothing wrong with £20 POTD - season ticket holders still make a saving - and have their seat reserved for each game, which is kind of the main thing.

For example, I will not go to either Bolton or Burton at the current price (can't justify spending almost £30 or more), but I would be there for £20 POTD.

I'm not the only one who feels the same.

My Dad is unemployed and has been ever since he was made redundant and unable to find other work - and even though he has been an ardent City fan since the early 70's, he can only afford to see City about 3 times a season.  That can't be right with all the empty seats available!

[Xiled]

4 minutes ago, Welcome To The Jungle said:

I digress. Football is the peoples game and remains this way in every country bar the UK. It should be affordable and accessible for everyone. If it means we don't get to spend 5 million on a new striker then so be it. That said, going to the football regularly is a habit, so lowering the prices may take a year or two to truly start seeing 25k plus on a regular basis, but it would happen. 

You might want it to be affordable and accessible for everyone (I would like that as well) but it's the entertainment industry and the operating costs for a football club are extremely high.

Can you remember the clamour to sign Tomlin during the summer of 2016?  I'm sure you're more reasonable than most but a lot of fans (who "bought my season ticket") expect to see significant signings.

It's not really about whether the club could get gates of 25k and more - there is a price level at which this would happen for nearly every home league game.  It's about overall revenue both now and in the future.  If the club dropped ticket prices to £10 and got capacity gates, the actual income would be lower than it is now.  Just supposing we got promoted, there would be no additional space for extra fans but our transfer and wage bills would increase.  And if the club then raised ticket prices to £30+ per game (Premier League level) there would be uproar.

There's a comment in a previous post about dropping prices for rugby games and what that does to the behaviour of the crowd.  I've seen the same affect at football matches.  More fans doesn't necessarily equate to a better atmosphere or more support.  For the really cheap games, a good proportion of the crowd look and act bored.  I would rather be part of a noisy and engaged crowd of 20,000 than a capacity crowd that contains 7,000 disinterested day-trippers.  That's why away games can be more exciting to part of.

The stats show that the club is growing its fan base steadily without resorting to Bradford style prices.  While that is still happening, I would suggest that they have ticket prices and incentives at about the right level.

[j1974]

15 minutes ago, Xiled said:

You might want it to be affordable and accessible for everyone (I would like that as well) but it's the entertainment industry and the operating costs for a football club are extremely high.

Can you remember the clamour to sign Tomlin during the summer of 2016?  I'm sure you're more reasonable than most but a lot of fans (who "bought my season ticket") expect to see significant signings.

It's not really about whether the club could get gates of 25k and more - there is a price level at which this would happen for nearly every home league game.  It's about overall revenue both now and in the future.  If the club dropped ticket prices to £10 and got capacity gates, the actual income would be lower than it is now.  Just supposing we got promoted, there would be no additional space for extra fans but our transfer and wage bills would increase.  And if the club then raised ticket prices to £30+ per game (Premier League level) there would be uproar.

There's a comment in a previous post about dropping prices for rugby games and what that does to the behaviour of the crowd.  I've seen the same affect at football matches.  More fans doesn't necessarily equate to a better atmosphere or more support.  For the really cheap games, a good proportion of the crowd look and act bored.  I would rather be part of a noisy and engaged crowd of 20,000 than a capacity crowd that contains 7,000 disinterested day-trippers.  That's why away games can be more exciting to part of.

The stats show that the club is growing its fan base steadily without resorting to Bradford style prices.  While that is still happening, I would suggest that they have ticket prices and incentives at about the right level.

Totally agree with you, The only way I feel clubs could keep the prices down going forward  is for the relevant world football  governing bodies to bring in a player wage cap structure and put a stop on greedy agents raping clubs as  financial fair play is not working. 

As a club I feel city do a lot to try and keep prices down and also have great incentives for the younger fan especially if buying a season ticket you only have to look at what the blue side charge to watch a game in a hole of a stadium and a league below  to see that. 

[SARJ]

1 hour ago, View from the Dolman said:

I don't have a £400k 3-bed semi in Ashton (and couldn't afford one) either so I not sure what your point is.

My point is that you were mocking a City supporter who commented that his commute to the game contributed to an already high match day experience. We can't help where we're born or brought up or can afford to buy a house. Because you may live closer to Ashton Gate it certainly doesn't mean others do. Attending the Gate can be extremely costly for some supporters.

[Welcome To The Jungle]

1 hour ago, Xiled said:

You might want it to be affordable and accessible for everyone (I would like that as well) but it's the entertainment industry and the operating costs for a football club are extremely high.

Can you remember the clamour to sign Tomlin during the summer of 2016?  I'm sure you're more reasonable than most but a lot of fans (who "bought my season ticket") expect to see significant signings.

It's not really about whether the club could get gates of 25k and more - there is a price level at which this would happen for nearly every home league game.  It's about overall revenue both now and in the future.  If the club dropped ticket prices to £10 and got capacity gates, the actual income would be lower than it is now.  Just supposing we got promoted, there would be no additional space for extra fans but our transfer and wage bills would increase.  And if the club then raised ticket prices to £30+ per game (Premier League level) there would be uproar.

There's a comment in a previous post about dropping prices for rugby games and what that does to the behaviour of the crowd.  I've seen the same affect at football matches.  More fans doesn't necessarily equate to a better atmosphere or more support.  For the really cheap games, a good proportion of the crowd look and act bored.  I would rather be part of a noisy and engaged crowd of 20,000 than a capacity crowd that contains 7,000 disinterested day-trippers.  That's why away games can be more exciting to part of.

The stats show that the club is growing its fan base steadily without resorting to Bradford style prices.  While that is still happening, I would suggest that they have ticket prices and incentives at about the right level.

So first of all practically every club overseas is able to function with lower ticket prices, despite the fact that their leagues generate much less in sponsorship and TV rights. The idea that these ticket prices are necessary to run a football club of our size is nothing short of a lie. A lie that has been spoon fed to almost every English football fan since 1992. Do not believe it, it can be done.

The Tomlin point is a good one as you illustrate that with lower prices, fans would be less likely to get on players/managers backs due to lower expectations. But this need not come at the expense of success. Many clubs have been promoted to he top flight without spending. The latest example being Huddersfield, in a fairly long list that includes the likes of Blackpool and Burnley (first time round). 

Your next point about income is similar to my first paragraph, but I'd say £15 was fair POTD price, and £179 a good starting point for STs (for adults in both cases). If we were promoted we'd have so much more money so could probably do as Huddersfield have done and lower prices even further.

As for the atmosphere I see where you are coming from. The issue is that in order for these newbies to feel at home and get invested into the game, they have to come more regularly, not just once a year. Sustained lowering of prices would see this problem slowly dissipate. 

As for our fan base, we've seen steady increase that has correlated with a promotion and a new build. Happy to be proved wrong but I'll make a judgement at the end of the season after consecutive seasons at this level in a completed stadium, though STs have stayed about the same so attendances shouldn't go up or down too much. I fear we may have plateaued .That said the attendances would rise faster if we lowered prices as it widens our net in order to bring people in.