We've got to talk about Korey

[where's the joy]

ok the game was over after 4 minutes and we were unlucky with deflections but

Korey Smith was missing yesterday, nearly all of our problems seemed to stem from his absence.

how much of our poor run co-incided with his injury woes last year and how much better have we been since he came back into the team, and then to form?

perhaps one kind OTIB fan might have some stats to back up this theory?

admittedly Flint and Pack had horrible games and Hegeler proved that unless he's been hiding his talent, as a striker or goalie, he has been a poor purchase.

can't remember the last time we played well against leeds, they always seem to out-pschye us. biggest crowd, poorest performance.

oh and why not make substitutions and change formation at half time?

[Pezo]

3 minutes ago, where's the joy said:

ok the game was over after 4 minutes and we were unlucky with deflections but

Korey Smith was missing yesterday, nearly all of our problems seemed to stem from his absence.

how much of our poor run co-incided with his injury woes last year and how much better have we been since he came back into the team, and then to form?

perhaps one kind OTIB fan might have some stats to back up this theory?

admittedly Flint and Pack had horrible games and Hegeler proved that unless he's been hiding his talent, as a striker or goalie, he has been a poor purchase.

can't remember the last time we played well against leeds, they always seem to out-pschye us. biggest crowd, poorest performance.

oh and why not make substitutions and change formation at half time?

And yet everytime he plays I feel like he is not good enough for this league, gets overrun, makes poor decisions and loses the ball regularly.

I liked Korey in our promotion season but like he has struggled with injury I have struggled to understand the benefit of having him in the championship. But then yesterday happened and I thought well he is clearly doing something and im missing it because we haven't looked so lightweight this season.

I think im coming to the conclusion that he is the best we have got in that position/role but our best is probably not good enough for a promotion/playoffs push but is more than good enough to stay in the league.

[ZiderEyed]

Disagree RE Hegeler. He's been good before in spells, as bad as he was yesterday I think it's unfair to write him off as you're doing.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Pezo said:

And yet everytime he plays I feel like he is not good enough for this league, gets overrun, makes poor decisions and loses the ball regularly.

I liked Korey in our promotion season but like he has struggled with injury I have struggled to understand the benefit of having him in the championship. But then yesterday happened and I thought well he is clearly doing something and im missing it because we haven't looked so lightweight this season.

I think im coming to the conclusion that he is the best we have got in that position/role but our best is probably not good enough for a promotion/playoffs push but is more than good enough to stay in the league.

I think it's his positioning. Many of those balls through the middle Leeds were terrorising us with would not have been on because Smith is 'the wall'.

He isn't the best passer, he isn't the toughest tackler and he doesn't score goals, so he can look ineffective. But his presence in midfield is massive and you can't teach that sort of game intelligence. I think he will get another chance in the Premier League before his career is over. 

[CliftonCliff]

2 hours ago, where's the joy said:

 

can't remember the last time we played well against leeds, they always seem to out-pschye us. biggest crowd, poorest performance.

That would be almost exactly 12 months ago, when we beat them 1-0 at home in a pulsating game that some of us considered at the time to be the toughest we'd seen in years. Maybe you missed it, or else you have a short memory.

[wendyredredrobin]

Clearlymissed korey when he went off v burton and yesterday, but missed patto and baker just as much yesterday.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

2 hours ago, Pezo said:

And yet everytime he plays I feel like he is not good enough for this league, gets overrun, makes poor decisions and loses the ball regularly.

I liked Korey in our promotion season but like he has struggled with injury I have struggled to understand the benefit of having him in the championship. But then yesterday happened and I thought well he is clearly doing something and im missing it because we haven't looked so lightweight this season.

I think im coming to the conclusion that he is the best we have got in that position/role but our best is probably not good enough for a promotion/playoffs push but is more than good enough to stay in the league.

For me you have just described Pack, a player who is totally lost without Smith beside him in midfield.

Smith is always available, is the one who gets back to cover the full backs when they get dispossessed while attacking, Pack never gets back to cover the full backs he's too slow.

Yes he gives the ball away occasionally but I suspect he receives the ball probably twice as much as any other outfield player during most games.

The evidence is leading up to our last 2 games we were playing with confidence and Pack was only playing at home and alongside Smith, take Smith out and 1 point out of 6 and no goals.

[Xspence]

2 hours ago, ZiderEyed said:

Disagree RE Hegeler. He's been good before in spells, as bad as he was yesterday I think it's unfair to write him off as you're doing.

This! He was shocking yesterday but is a decent player. My issue with him is he doesn't fit in our current system. He is not mobile enough for a central midfield slot in a 2 and not disciplined enough to be one of 2 centre backs. As one of 3 cbs or 2 dmc (in a 5) I think he would be excellent. At times looks like a rolls Royce on the ball though. 

I agree that we do miss Korey in there. Pack and Brownhill would both be better alongside him. Yesterday must make us realise how key Baker is though. Gives balance to the defence - yesterday think Baker was my motm! 

[ZiderEyed]

38 minutes ago, Xspence said:

This! He was shocking yesterday but is a decent player. My issue with him is he doesn't fit in our current system. He is not mobile enough for a central midfield slot in a 2 and not disciplined enough to be one of 2 centre backs. As one of 3 cbs or 2 dmc (in a 5) I think he would be excellent. At times looks like a rolls Royce on the ball though. 

I agree that we do miss Korey in there. Pack and Brownhill would both be better alongside him. Yesterday must make us realise how key Baker is though. Gives balance to the defence - yesterday think Baker was my motm! 

In a 3 he'd be sexual. He was far too ponderous and plodding today, didn't suit the game at all. It is a bit of a headache in that midfield though, because I think all 3 of those lads, Korey, Marlon and Brownhill, are very very good players. Brownhill was perhaps the diamond in the steaming pile of shite last night.

[CliftonCliff]

24 minutes ago, Xspence said:

This! He was shocking yesterday but is a decent player. My issue with him is he doesn't fit in our current system. He is not mobile enough for a central midfield slot in a 2 and not disciplined enough to be one of 2 centre backs. As one of 3 cbs or 2 dmc (in a 5) I think he would be excellent. At times looks like a rolls Royce on the ball though. 

I agree that we do miss Korey in there. Pack and Brownhill would both be better alongside him. Yesterday must make us realise how key Baker is though. Gives balance to the defence - yesterday think Baker was my motm! 

The point that Hegeler is a good footballer who does not currently fit with our preferred way of playing is a fair one and has been made before. My own view (and I am an admirer of him) is that he is not first and foremost a central defender (at least not in this league, anyway) but a midfield player. I can understand why you might consider him "too slow" to play in midfield, but both I and a friend who sits near me felt yesterday that we would have liked to see him moved forward, with perhaps Magnússon coming into defence or some other reorganisation of the back four. We failed for most of the match to secure any sustained, controlled possession and, slow or not, some of the composure he shows on the ball would not have gone amiss. I will get shot down for saying so, but I still think a case could be made for starting him there on Tuesday, especially in the light of the present injury situation.

[Lanterne Rouge]

5 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Really can't see how some City fans still don't rate Smith. For me he has been a top championship midfielder since our promotion. He does everything brilliantly in the role he plays.

As with Baker yesterday, you don`t know what you`ve got till it`s gone.

I call it Cisse syndrome, he was the same.

[CliftonCliff]

1 minute ago, Red Right Hand said:

As with Baker yesterday, you don`t know what you`ve got till it`s gone.

I call it Cisse syndrome, he was the same.

Baker hasn't put a foot wrong since he got here. All three were missed yesterday - him, Korey and Pato.

[Xspence]

11 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

The point that Hegeler is a good footballer who does not currently fit with our preferred way of playing is a fair one and has been made before. My own view (and I am an admirer of him) is that he is not first and foremost a central defender (at least not in this league, anyway) but a midfield player. I can understand why you might consider him "too slow" to play in midfield, but both I and a friend who sits near me felt yesterday that we would have liked to see him moved forward, with perhaps Magnússon coming into defence or some other reorganisation of the back four. We failed for most of the match to secure any sustained, controlled possession and, slow or not, some of the composure he shows on the ball would not have gone amiss. I will get shot down for saying so, but I still think a case could be made for starting him there on Tuesday, especially in the light of the present injury situation.

I can see him starting Tuesday and can see it working. My worry is not necessarily pace but more mobility. He is 6ft 4 so naturally cannot turn like say Bobby. If we play him I would like to see him as a Dm in a midfield 5 with a smaller player I.e. Not Pack, alongside him.

 

Generally besidess anything else he is a useful squad player who can cover several positions 

[Phileas Fogg]

Where's @RedDave?

[And Its Smith]

34 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Where's @RedDave?

Given up trying to educate people about Smith.  Will just let the results when he isnt playing do it for me.  

There are many players that the public don't 'get' until it is made blatantly obvious to them.  Lallana for England (a few years ago),Winks for England.  Tom Davies should be in England squad at least if not first team.  

City fans couldnt see that Baker is better than Flint when he was here on loan.  Loads couldnt see that Bryan was going to be a top left back last season.  

I get the odd one wrong as well.  Could not see it clicking for Bobby Reid for example. But Korey Smith's abilities without the ball seem to pass so many people by.

[AppyDAZE]

If anyone ever thinks a game of football is over after 4 minutes (against a team in your own league, at least) you may as well not play another match. It wasn't even all over at 2-0 in the seond half ffs.

PS How the **** did Diedhiou miss with that header at the end??   Harder to miss.

[Phileas Fogg]

5 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Given up trying to educate people about Smith.  Will just let the results when he isnt playing do it for me.  

There are many players that the public don't 'get' until it is made blatantly obvious to them.  Lallana for England (a few years ago),Winks for England.  Tom Davies should be in England squad at least if not first team.  

City fans couldnt see that Baker is better than Flint when he was here on loan.  Loads couldnt see that Bryan was going to be a top left back last season.  

I get the odd one wrong as well.  Could not see it clicking for Bobby Reid for example. But Korey Smith's abilities without the ball seem to pass so many people by.

I like him, I was a little concerned about his early season form (I should've obeyed my own rule and given it a bigger sample size). I feel he has his limitations as a complete midfielder as he sometimes he looks a bit panicked in possession.. however his industry and energy is essential for how we play. I think without him we miss a bit of tenacity and bite in midfield - he complements Pack and Brownhill very well. I'm sure both enjoy playing with him.

I've met him before and he's a genuinely good guy off the pitch which makes a difference - no ego at all and will be a fantastic role model to have around. 

[Judda]

6 hours ago, ZiderEyed said:

Disagree RE Hegeler. He's been good before in spells, as bad as he was yesterday I think it's unfair to write him off as you're doing.

I think we missed Smith and maybe should have put hegeler into his holding role in front of a back 4...

[cidered abroad]

4 hours ago, CliftonCliff said:

The point that Hegeler is a good footballer who does not currently fit with our preferred way of playing is a fair one and has been made before. My own view (and I am an admirer of him) is that he is not first and foremost a central defender (at least not in this league, anyway) but a midfield player. I can understand why you might consider him "too slow" to play in midfield, but both I and a friend who sits near me felt yesterday that we would have liked to see him moved forward, with perhaps Magnússon coming into defence or some other reorganisation of the back four. We failed for most of the match to secure any sustained, controlled possession and, slow or not, some of the composure he shows on the ball would not have gone amiss. I will get shot down for saying so, but I still think a case could be made for starting him there on Tuesday, especially in the light of the present injury situation.

A couple of us in S22 thought this. Take Pack off. Vyner to RB, Bailey Wright to LCB and Hegeler to central midfield.

Four square pegs in square holes.

[LondonBristolian]

On the one hand, I think there is an element of bad luck in that, whilst people talk about a lack of depth, I think most Championship sides who are missing their first choice right back, best centre-back, best central midfielder and best creative player all at the same time - especially if, rightly or wrongly, the first choice striker is being rested too - would struggle against a team like Leeds. It is more than possible that, even if we had moved Wright to centre-back, Hegeler to midfield, left out Pack and Woodrow and started with Vyner and FD, we'd still have lost 3-0 and be blaming it on other factors.

But I think the reality is that we cannot get play the way we have been so far this season without Korey and Paterson. It is no coincidence they were the two players that came in just before we turned it around last season and Korey in particular is crucial to the intensity of our play. It is true that Hegeler doesn't fit into our style of play but, without Korey and without anyone in the current squad who can replicate his role, I think we need to adjust our style of play. We need Korey back in the team as soon as possible but I think we also need a different tactical plan when we don't have him. And I wonder if that involves playing Pack, Hegeler and Brownhill as a midfield three to compensate for the loss of Smith's mobility...

[CliftonCliff]

6 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

On the one hand, I think there is an element of bad luck in that, whilst people talk about a lack of depth, I think most Championship sides who are missing their first choice right back, best centre-back, best central midfielder and best creative player all at the same time - especially if, rightly or wrongly, the first choice striker is being rested too - would struggle against a team like Leeds. It is more than possible that, even if we had moved Wright to centre-back, Hegeler to midfield, left out Pack and Woodrow and started with Vyner and FD, we'd still have lost 3-0 and be blaming it on other factors.

But I think the reality is that we cannot get play the way we have been so far this season without Korey and Paterson. It is no coincidence they were the two players that came in just before we turned it around last season and Korey in particular is crucial to the intensity of our play. It is true that Hegeler doesn't fit into our style of play but, without Korey and without anyone in the current squad who can replicate his role, I think we need to adjust our style of play. We need Korey back in the team as soon as possible but I think we also need a different tactical plan when we don't have him. And I wonder if that involves playing Pack, Hegeler and Brownhill as a midfield three to compensate for the loss of Smith's mobility...

Well, I agree with you. We'll find out on Tuesday whether LJ sees it that way.

[robin_unreliant]

16 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

On the one hand, I think there is an element of bad luck in that, whilst people talk about a lack of depth, I think most Championship sides who are missing their first choice right back, best centre-back, best central midfielder and best creative player all at the same time - especially if, rightly or wrongly, the first choice striker is being rested too - would struggle against a team like Leeds. It is more than possible that, even if we had moved Wright to centre-back, Hegeler to midfield, left out Pack and Woodrow and started with Vyner and FD, we'd still have lost 3-0 and be blaming it on other factors.

But I think the reality is that we cannot get play the way we have been so far this season without Korey and Paterson. It is no coincidence they were the two players that came in just before we turned it around last season and Korey in particular is crucial to the intensity of our play. It is true that Hegeler doesn't fit into our style of play but, without Korey and without anyone in the current squad who can replicate his role, I think we need to adjust our style of play. We need Korey back in the team as soon as possible but I think we also need a different tactical plan when we don't have him. And I wonder if that involves playing Pack, Hegeler and Brownhill as a midfield three to compensate for the loss of Smith's mobility...

Think it asks a lot of any midfield 2 if you play two wingers in this league. Both Leko and COD are a bit lightweight to help out the CMs. So, like yesterday, you can get overrun in midfield. Doesn't help that Pack has been particularly carp in the last couple of games too.

[BS4 on Tour...]

7 hours ago, ZiderEyed said:

Disagree RE Hegeler. He's been good before in spells, as bad as he was yesterday I think it's unfair to write him off as you're doing.

With you there mate - he's a fine footballer, I personally just don't think he's a centre back...

[ScottishRed]

5 hours ago, ZiderEyed said:

In a 3 he'd be sexual. He was far too ponderous and plodding today, didn't suit the game at all. It is a bit of a headache in that midfield though, because I think all 3 of those lads, Korey, Marlon and Brownhill, are very very good players. Brownhill was perhaps the diamond in the steaming pile of shite last night.

"Very very good" Really?

On a good day Marlon does alright at this level.

On a good day Korey is a good Championship midfielder, sometimes very (1) good

On his day Brownhill is a good Championship midfielder

I simply do not get the love-in on OTIB with Brownhill, he is bang average.

Yesterday we saw a couple of midfielders playing for the opposition who are a different level to what we have.

[ScottishRed]

36 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

With you there mate - he's a fine footballer, I personally just don't think he's a centre back...

He is a good player but way to ponderous to be a CB in this league.

In the system we play he is also too slow for CM - I am actually at a loss as to why we bought him .

[Davefevs]

Lot of sense @RedDave 

[marcofisher]

Think Korey is criminally underrated, does all the basics perfectly and nobody’s see how well he reads and breaks up the opponents play. Skuse came in with a big tackle to try and break up play, Korey is twice as good in the way he does it by reading the opponents play filling in the gaps and being quick enough to pick up all the loose balls. Something we saw that Marlon pack does not have the ability to do yesterday.

[SedRA]

For all those suggesting that we should've moved hegeler to cm yesterday, I can't see it would've helped. Leeds were playing with such intensity in midfield, his languid style would've been a recipe for disaster. 

[Floatn Over]

8 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Think Korey is criminally underrated, does all the basics perfectly and nobody’s see how well he reads and breaks up the opponents play. Skuse came in with a big tackle to try and break up play, Korey is twice as good in the way he does it by reading the opponents play filling in the gaps and being quick enough to pick up all the loose balls. Something we saw that Marlon pack does not have the ability to do yesterday.

I'm always happier to see Korey in the team without question; makes things happen and as you say "marcofisher" reads a game well, also nics the ball well, something not done against Leeds.  Does seem to get niggle injuries though.

[YorkshireSection]

He is quality and is even better when played alongside quality (see Norwich career), I think Brownhill will continue to grow if partnered with Korey, I see them as a very good championship pairing, the problem is as we are currently experiencing we don't have the strength in depth to replace him or Brownhill if we want to move up this league or get out of it (promotion).

As we all know every season this league gets harder, so we need to improve with it, unfortunately (and Im not meaning to single anyone out) Marlon Pack is not good enough on a consistent basis if we are to challenge, we need someone who keeps possession and moves the ball forward, IMHO he needs replacing and isn't good enough for the championship or at least a team with our aspirations.