Success

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I think most of us will agree that so far we have had an unbelievable and probably unexpected season.

I for one would have settled for mid table flirting with a chance of the play offs.

But has our success and the rise to 2nd in the table and for once the plaudits of the so called experts given us a problem?.

And that problem is surely which route do we now choose?.

Do we go for it financially in this window or stick to the plan?. Neither of course can guarantee success but one might give us a better chance obviously.

For me our real problems are going to occur once the season is over, if we miss automatic promotion, fail in the play offs or even fail to make the play offs, will the now backbone/experienced and most talented players want away especially given the experience of prem opposition in the league cup.

Flint, Baker, Bryan and Reid, imagine losing all 4?, IMO it would be almost like a starting from a scratch position for us and instead of building upon the success of this season, we will be rebuilding once more. I believe sadly that we could probably allow Flint and Bryan to leave and still push on but losing all 4 would be a disaster.

So are we going to be the Crewe of the championship? or the Bournemouth of the championship?, it is a fine line and a realisation of how far we have progressed in such a short time and the problems that that success brings, it’s never easy is it?.

[Alex_BCFC]

Stick with the plan. It might take another 3 years but we are heading the right way. 

Good players come and go but our overall strategy looks good to me - pick up young quality players. We only sell for crazy money like Kodjia so not everyone will go at once. I really don't think Baker or Reid will go anywhere either. Bryan maybe and Flint is less likely than it was but still it's possible. 

[marmite]

4 minutes ago, Alex_BCFC said:

Stick with the plan. It might take another 3 years but we are heading the right way. 

Good players come and go but our overall strategy looks good to me - pick up young quality players. We only sell for crazy money like Kodjia so not everyone will go at once. I really don't think Baker or Reid will go anywhere either. Bryan maybe and Flint is less likely than it was but still it's possible. 

Agree, stick with the plan. We survived losing Kodjia and we survived losing Tammy. Others will come through or in to replace them. The club is getting the whole set up right at last but it won't guarantee instant success. Lets all be just a little bit patient.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

5 minutes ago, Alex_BCFC said:

Stick with the plan. It might take another 3 years but we are heading the right way. 

Good players come and go but our overall strategy looks good to me - pick up young quality players. We only sell for crazy money like Kodjia so not everyone will go at once. I really don't think Baker or Reid will go anywhere either. Bryan maybe and Flint is less likely than it was but still it's possible. 

To be honest I am really having a problem deciding where I am with this.

I see your point but my problem will be in 3 years time we may have to sacrifice the next 4 backbone/experienced and talented players and then we fall into another 3 year rebuild, it could end up as a revolving door, that's why I said it's never easy and it's a big decision.

On the plus side for a change we do not have to panic sign players for short term survival, but we can be signing players that will still be relevant next season.

[marmite]

We've signed a lot of development youngsters over the past few years who are getting experience elsewhere. Some, but not all, will come through and fit into the first team. This is all part of the long term plan. If it works well, the revolving door will keep bringing quality in so we must trust in the club to follow through on the process they have started. It may take a few years to achieve success but you have to lay the foundations first.

[steveybadger]

Dare I say a bigger issue would be if LJ goes? 

[red panda]

We shouldn't beat ourselves up about selling players.  We should be pleased that players are improving here, and are doing well both personally and as part of a successful team that they become attractive to bigger clubs.  It's difficult to see a situation where the club does well and we don't have this "problem"

[Olé]

I also fear seeing this team broken up after this season, but I'm not sure what "going for it financially" would actually entail - and to what end?

We have a £5m striker back in a couple of weeks, to be followed by several other £1m+ first teamers. By our standards that will be incredible.

Short of spending outrageous (£10m a pop) sums on Premiership standard players, I'm unsure what we add other than numbers to the squad.

McIndoe makes this point about the mistake in 2007 but back then it was clear who was playing 'above their level' and where weak links were.

This is a better team, in my head we needed another option in midfield, a winger, and a target man. Like them or not, we've got the first two in.

As for up front, we have £7m+ worth of target man coming back soon enough. I don't think even Man City would panic buy for a months cover. 

[Red Army 87]

Similar feeling to when we missed out on the playoff final under GJ. It came quicker than expected and we didn’t know how to handle ourselves in the summer, spending incredible amounts of wages on has been players and getting it all wrong eventually.

The club now has a strategy and long term planning, which we never had previously. We shouldn’t panic after a few defeats. This is one of, if not the most competitive league in the world, with a ridiculous financial prize for being successful.

If we don’t make playoffs, I don’t think I will see it as us going backwards, the season is played over 46 games and if we aren’t good enough, we aren’t good enough. I have more trust now than 10 years ago that we will continue to progress and recruit wisely which in my opinion will bring reward and sustainability long term.

[ExiledAjax]

The Walsh signing shows that the club are sticking to the plan.  This is a plan that worked surprisingly well in the summer/autumn when we picked up some great wins (Ipswich, Hull, Sheff Utd, Man Utd).  However, I suspect the management felt we were punching above our weight.  

I think that we need most right now is a physical, goal-scoring, experienced striker.  Now that may be a new signing, or it may be Diedhiou (100+ games in Ligue 2, 6'3", 25, 6 in 13 for us) or Djuric (200+ games in Serie B/A, 6'7", 27, 3 in 19 for us).  Both those guys are exactly the sort of player I'd hope we were looking to sign.  Therefore I expect we won't see a big name striker come in - but it will depend on what we see in the medical room.

Once those guys - and Pisano and COD - are back then we should be in a great position to finish the season strongly.  Our last 10 games aren't against top teams so there is an opportunity to go on a little run there.  8 wins in the last ten might be enough to launch us into 2nd...but we may have to settle for hitting the play-offs in a rich vein of form - and that could also be very exciting.

Frankly, both of those end of season scenarios would constitute "success" given the parameters and targets at the beginning of the season.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Flint, Baker, Bryan and Reid, imagine losing all 4?, IMO it would be almost like a starting from a scratch position for us and instead of building upon the success of this season, we will be rebuilding once more. I believe sadly that we could probably allow Flint and Bryan to leave and still push on but losing all 4 would be a disaster.

Mentioned on sub forum that I dont think it would be back to square one at all. Flint has already been replaced remember, he is playing so we can fill the right back slot with Bailey. I have no real concerns once we have a right back in Baker and Wright as a pairing. 

Joe is replaced by Maggs at LB (and the way HM has been improving I think I prefer him to Joe at lb), and then in LM there is Paterson when Bobby is second striker to Diedhou or Djuric. 

Bobby would be a big loss but if we keep Paterson he is good there and we have Kent to grow into LM role. 

Walsh is Pack's replacement. 

Losing all 4 doesn't cause me so much fear considering the replacements we already have here and the very significant funds it would release. I wouldn't want any to go this window, but in the summer I would be tempted to cash in on them all. 

[ExiledAjax]

2 minutes ago, 29AR said:

Losing all 4 doesn't cause me so much fear considering the replacements we already have here and the very significant funds it would release. 

Would £30-40m be an unreasonable expectation for all four?

I'd hate to see all four of them leave as I think those four plus FF and Smith are the core of the team that have been to the bottom of L1, Wembley, and the high reaches of the champ together...but if they have to go then that would be some serious £ to spend.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

25 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

Dare I say a bigger issue would be if LJ goes? 

He will only go if he believes that his visions are not being supported, he is not a fool and if he is going to leave it will be whilst his stock is high and not whilst it maybe into decline.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Would £30-40m be an unreasonable expectation for all four?

I'd hate to see all four of them leave as I think those four plus FF and Smith are the core of the team that have been to the bottom of L1, Wembley, and the high reaches of the champ together...but if they have to go then that would be some serious £ to spend.

Yeah I think so. JB has to be higher than Kodjia for me, Bobby perhaps around Kodjia's fee given contract situation, Flint £8m ballpark, Pack is one that's hard to know what would be paid for him. I would be hoping around £35m for all four.

With the replacements we have already here and settled, and that to spend, I think we could build a much better squad - during the summer. 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

9 minutes ago, 29AR said:

Mentioned on sub forum that I dont think it would be back to square one at all. Flint has already been replaced remember, he is playing so we can fill the right back slot with Bailey. I have no real concerns once we have a right back in Baker and Wright as a pairing. 

Joe is replaced by Maggs at LB (and the way HM has been improving I think I prefer him to Joe at lb), and then in LM there is Paterson when Bobby is second striker to Diedhou or Djuric. 

Bobby would be a big loss but if we keep Paterson he is good there and we have Kent to grow into LM role. 

Walsh is Pack's replacement. 

Losing all 4 doesn't cause me so much fear considering the replacements we already have here and the very significant funds it would release. I wouldn't want any to go this window, but in the summer I would be tempted to cash in on them all. 

Part of my problem is 'filling the right back slot' beyond this window which is the first opportunity to sign a specialist right back.

Secondly personally I don't have your faith in Magnússon and I don't think LJ does either, he is useful from the point of view that Vyner and Kelly are not yet ready to step up, he is useful in as much as it allows LJ to enact plan B and push Flint upfront and he is useful in as much as he's ours and the lesser of available evils, sorry that is my honest opinion, I don't think he is good enough.

As for the highlighted part I agree with the first sentence but I would only allow Flint and Bryan to leave, we really need to keep the other 2.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

4 minutes ago, 29AR said:

Yeah I think so. JB has to be higher than Kodjia for me, Bobby perhaps around Kodjia's fee given contract situation, Flint £8m ballpark, Pack is one that's hard to know what would be paid for him. I would be hoping around £35m for all four.

With the replacements we have already here and settled, and that to spend, I think we could build a much better squad - during the summer. 

I suppose my point should have been at the moment for the first time in a while we actually look like a team, 2 we could maybe lose and carry on in the same vein but 4 is a big ask to replace and keep the same team ethic alive.

Don't get me wrong I am loving the route that we are taking with the young signings but I just think we really need another striker and one for the here and now this time and that will cost, as I mentioned on another thread the imminent return of Diedhiou and Djuric is great but by the time one or either is fully fit another 6 to 8 games will have been entered into the record books.

As I said I am struggling to decide what route I would like us to go, but I do believe that we need a specialist right back (maybe a loan) and we need a quality striker to fill in whilst either Diedhiou or Djuric reach full fitness and to give us the viable striker options that are not available to us now.

In the long term also I believe that maybe a bit of ambition might especially if we have a near miss for promotion persuade all 4 to give it one more go next season, whereas if our progress dissolves into nothing because of a lack of ambition, we could lose all 4 and unsettle one or two others, I repeat it ain't easy but it's a big decision.

 

[Guest]

@Esmond Million's Bung I do agree, but for me we aren't losing 4 and replacing with new players to gel. Even though all 4 are starters, the way I see it we will have one unknown to bring in - LM or No.10 depending upon how we replace Joe/Bobby. If we were going out for four new players I would 100% share your concerns. 

Re HM you could well be right. I have found him excellent in the last 3 or so and quietly buiding up to then. Mind you, I thought he was incredible in his first few months here so I may be mistaken. When he came on yesterday he wasn't on long but his long range, quarterback-esque passing was pinpoint. 

[Inactive user]

1 hour ago, steveybadger said:

Dare I say a bigger issue would be if LJ goes? 

Agree. But we should have an infrastructure to cope.  Whether we have is another matter.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

7 minutes ago, 29AR said:

@Esmond Million's Bung I do agree, but for me we aren't losing 4 and replacing with new players to gel. Even though all 4 are starters, the way I see it we will have one unknown to bring in - LM or No.10 depending upon how we replace Joe/Bobby. If we were going out for four new players I would 100% share your concerns. 

Re HM you could well be right. I have found him excellent in the last 3 or so and quietly buiding up to then. Mind you, I thought he was incredible in his first few months here so I may be mistaken. When he came on yesterday he wasn't on long but his long range, quarterback-esque passing was pinpoint. 

For me far too casual, slow thinking and struggles in the more physical games, but hey as my all time football hero used to say "it's a funny old game", god bless you Jimmy Greaves.

One thing is for sure and that is as the old Chinese says “May you live in interesting times,”  BCFC certainly does at this point in it's history and for this long term supporter long may it continue, last night was only the 2nd time all season I went to bed totally pissed off the only other time was Birmingham away when we were abject.

[pillred]

1 hour ago, marmite said:

Agree, stick with the plan. We survived losing Kodjia and we survived losing Tammy. Others will come through or in to replace them. The club is getting the whole set up right at last but it won't guarantee instant success. Lets all be just a little bit patient.

problem I have is just think where we would be with either of those in our side at the moment.

[CliftonCliff]

It’s a dilemma, but the current regime hasn’t got too much wrong regarding player recruitment and retention over the last few transfer windows and I have far more confidence now in their ability to navigate a course through these potentially tricky waters than I would have had a year or two earlier.

Nobody has a crystal ball and you never know, but I think our anxiety is getting the better of us when we start fretting over a worst case scenario in which Flint. Bryan, Baker and Reid all leave: I would have thought this pretty unlikely, though I would concede that the departure of the first two would begin to feel inevitable if we’re still in the Championship next year - which I believe we will be. There has been interest in those two for quite some time and if anything they are both performing at an even better level now than they were back when that started. We will miss them a lot, as strong characters and committed team men as much as individual players, but though I’ll be really sad to see either one go, I don’t think their loss would fatally undermine the long term project.

Also, the stick or twist options as they are tending to be perceived are not necessarily mutually exclusive choices. I think it may be a bit of both: neither sticking rigidly to the emphasis on young potential nor throwing crazy sums at the problem but something in between the two. LJ is a flexible thinker. I remain hopeful in the face of this undeniably sticky patch. They will essentially hold to the core beliefs, but I would not be surprised by a big money signing of a proven player - and if that does happen, I think it will be a striker.....

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

5 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

It’s a dilemma, but the current regime hasn’t got too much wrong regarding player recruitment and retention over the last few transfer windows and I have far more confidence now in their ability to navigate a course through these potentially tricky waters than I would have had a year or two earlier.

Nobody has a crystal ball and you never know, but I think our anxiety is getting the better of us when we start fretting over a worst case scenario in which Flint. Bryan, Baker and Reid all leave: I would have thought this pretty unlikely, though I would concede that the departure of the first two would begin to feel inevitable if we’re still in the Championship next year - which I believe we will be. There has been interest in those two for quite some time and if anything they are both performing at an even better level now than they were back when that started. We will miss them a lot, as strong characters and committed team men as much as individual players, but though I’ll be really sad to see either one go, I don’t think their loss would fatally undermine the long term project.

Also, the stick or twist options as they are tending to be perceived are not necessarily mutually exclusive choices. I think it may be a bit of both: neither sticking rigidly to the emphasis on young potential nor throwing crazy sums at the problem but something in between the two. LJ is a flexible thinker. I remain hopeful in the face of this undeniably sticky patch. They will essentially hold to the core beliefs, but I would not be surprised by a big money signing of a proven player - and if that does happen, I think it will be a striker.....

 

As for your first paragraph, I give you Engvall, Magnússon, Hegeler, Taylor and maybe even Eliasson, but I get your point.

As for the last paragraph any major outlay could be underwritten by the expectation of big fees for at least Flint and Bryan in the summer.

[CliftonCliff]

10 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

As for your first paragraph, I give you Engvall, Magnússon, Hegeler, Taylor and maybe even Eliasson, but I get your point.

Those names come up a lot in this kind of discussion and I understand why that is. However, there was a time when similar questions were being raised about O’Dowda and even Brownhill. The whole point of the strategy we’re pursuing is that we don’t know how these guys will develop over the next twelve months, though one thing you can be sure of is that they won’t get it right every time. That’s just the nature of the beast and it has to be expected. 

Inevitably, opinions vary. Not everyone would dismiss Magnússon as a mistake (though as it happens I share your  reservations). The Swedish boys have played very few games, as yet. The other two never did fit the prevailing model, in that both are older players with varying levels of experience. Taylor, one feels, was something of a punt (mind how you read that) in that he was available and cheap (no sniggering, please), but I wouldn’t say he’s been an unmitigated disaster by any means.

The hardest one to understand is Hegeler. It’s never really been made clear what thinking lay behind that. I still admire him as a very accomplished footballer, but as has been pointed out, he does not seem to fit with our preferred way of playing.

In all these cases  though, and in the context of an outstandingly and unexpectedly successful season so far, I am willing to give LJ the benefit of the doubt until such time as the evidence of failure becomes unequivocal, which I don’t believe it has - yet.

 

[Lanterne Rouge]

Stick with the plan IMO. If we don`t go up, so be it and anyone who suffered the fallout post Hull can surely never want to go through those wilderness years again.

Having said that, I doubt it would be as bad as it was back then as the club learned a lot of lessons from that fiasco and will not repeat the mistakes that were made.

I suppose it`s really a case of what will be will be - I`m ambivalent about promotion if I`m being totally honest. I had a long chat with a friend in the week who is a long standing Saints STH and she is hating what they`re doing at the moment, setting up to not lose as they are so desperate to not be relegated and she says it`s sucking the life out of everyone down there. Would I want that at City? It really was depressing to see someone who is so totally into her club as I am into mine feeling like that and basically having lost the spark that we all should have.

Would I want to be like that or would I rather go toe to toe in the championship with the likes of Wednesday or Boro every week?

I really don`t know at the moment.

 

[CliftonCliff]

16 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

Stick with the plan IMO. If we don`t go up, so be it and anyone who suffered the fallout post Hull can surely never want to go through those wilderness years again.

Having said that, I doubt it would be as bad as it was back then as the club learned a lot of lessons from that fiasco and will not repeat the mistakes that were made.

I suppose it`s really a case of what will be will be - I`m ambivalent about promotion if I`m being totally honest. I had a long chat with a friend in the week who is a long standing Saints STH and she is hating what they`re doing at the moment, setting up to not lose as they are so desperate to not be relegated and she says it`s sucking the life out of everyone down there. Would I want that at City? It really was depressing to see someone who is so totally into her club as I am into mine feeling like that and basically having lost the spark that we all should have.

Would I want to be like that or would I rather go toe to toe in the championship with the likes of Wednesday or Boro every week?

I really don`t know at the moment.

 

You’re not alone in those sentiments. One comforting thing though  is the way LJ set about Man C. Would he yield to the pressure to park the bus in the PL? He’s not afraid to do things his own way. Promotion might not necessarily mean a season of dour defending.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

23 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

Stick with the plan IMO. If we don`t go up, so be it and anyone who suffered the fallout post Hull can surely never want to go through those wilderness years again.

Having said that, I doubt it would be as bad as it was back then as the club learned a lot of lessons from that fiasco and will not repeat the mistakes that were made.

I suppose it`s really a case of what will be will be - I`m ambivalent about promotion if I`m being totally honest. I had a long chat with a friend in the week who is a long standing Saints STH and she is hating what they`re doing at the moment, setting up to not lose as they are so desperate to not be relegated and she says it`s sucking the life out of everyone down there. Would I want that at City? It really was depressing to see someone who is so totally into her club as I am into mine feeling like that and basically having lost the spark that we all should have.

Would I want to be like that or would I rather go toe to toe in the championship with the likes of Wednesday or Boro every week?

I really don`t know at the moment.

 

Southampton like a few other prem clubs in foreign ownership are the masters of their own downfall, they sacked a manager who took them to 8th place in that league but that incredibly wasn't good enough and now they are paying for that nonsense and of course they have history of that under the current ownership, do I have any sympathy for Southampton do I ****.

And Bournemouth don't play like that so it can be done.

As for BCFC my position is this, I would push the boat out for a striker and my reasoning is thus, firstly as I have already said it will create a perception amongst our better players that we are trying to match their undoubted ambitions + also as I have already mentioned the cost could be under written by the prospective sales of Flint and Bryan in the summer, if needed.

I don't see the risk, perhaps we wouldn't even need a permanent signing may be a biggish loan fee for Grabban or Vokes or somebody similar?.

[Davefevs]

If Taylor was a £300k punt, then £150k for Hegeler still has value for money in it, and he started the season well at CB.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

If Taylor was a £300k punt, then £150k for Hegeler still has value for money in it, and he started the season well at CB.

Both have not worked out, move them on they offer little or nothing, I can't agree about Hegeler at CB, I thought he looked out of place, opinions eh.

[BS4 on Tour...]

3 hours ago, steveybadger said:

Dare I say a bigger issue would be if LJ goes? 

Nah - we’ve had 35 other managers in our history, we’d find another one...

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Both have not worked out, move them on they offer little or nothing, I can't agree about Hegeler at CB, I thought he looked out of place, opinions eh.

Absolutely about opinions.

Hegeler’s problem is that he looks so relaxed, but actually at CB he positions himself well, and on the ball his touch to move the ball for the next pass is quality.  Not better than Baker though, who rarely seems to need another gear.  His positioning is very, very good.  Doesn’t need to go on his arse very often.  He’s (Hegeler) not a ball-winner in the air, but he wins more than people give him credit.  Sometimes as a CB, you let the striker win it because he flicks on to nobody, which is what Millwall did, but Hegs criticised for not jumping.  Why try to win a header that puts the ball back into a congested area, exactly what Millwall wanted.  Little things people miss, because they are used to Flint-style.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Absolutely about opinions.

Hegeler’s problem is that he looks so relaxed, but actually at CB he positions himself well, and on the ball his touch to move the ball for the next pass is quality.  Not better than Baker though, who rarely seems to need another gear.  His positioning is very, very good.  Doesn’t need to go on his arse very often.  He’s (Hegeler) not a ball-winner in the air, but he wins more than people give him credit.  Sometimes as a CB, you let the striker win it because he flicks on to nobody, which is what Millwall did, but Hegs criticised for not jumping.  Why try to win a header that puts the ball back into a congested area, exactly what Millwall wanted.  Little things people miss, because they are used to Flint-style.

The most important part about being a CB is being strong and not to be eased off of the ball easily, something Stones did not illustrate today with Liverpool's 2nd goal, I thought Hegeler was easy to ease off of the ball and more worrying was when holding the line he would invariably be the one to step out prematurely leaving space in behind.

I would rate him as an older version of Magnússon.

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

The most important part about being a CB is being strong and not to be eased off of the ball easily, something Stones did not illustrate today with Liverpool's 2nd goal, I thought Hegeler was easy to ease off of the ball and more worrying was when holding the line he would invariably be the one to step out prematurely leaving space in behind.

I would rate him as an older version of Magnússon.

Disagree that strength is the most important.  Positional sense, awareness of danger, awareness of runs the split second you look up at the ball, etc. We take the stereotype of a big, strong, Centre Back to extremes.  I do agree that Hegeler isn’t like that, but he has other qualities, as i’ve Stated.

You’ll notice that in the past i’ve Actually been critical of Flint’s lack of aggression, but he has addressed that this season....think Che Adams goal last season.

As for Stones, he got caught a little bit wrong-footed, but then brushed aside by "we sold Coutinho, but we’ve got Bobby" Firminho.  Really poor.  All he needed to do was get his right arm out a bit and Firminho can’t get the nudge.  Poor at any level.  It is why Ferdinand became class and Stones won’t at the highest level (imho0.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Disagree that strength is the most important.  Positional sense, awareness of danger, awareness of runs the split second you look up at the ball, etc. We take the stereotype of a big, strong, Centre Back to extremes.  I do agree that Hegeler isn’t like that, but he has other qualities, as i’ve Stated.

You’ll notice that in the past i’ve Actually been critical of Flint’s lack of aggression, but he has addressed that this season....think Che Adams goal last season.

As for Stones, he got caught a little bit wrong-footed, but then brushed aside by "we sold Coutinho, but we’ve got Bobby" Firminho.  Really poor.  All he needed to do was get his right arm out a bit and Firminho can’t get the nudge.  Poor at any level.  It is why Ferdinand became class and Stones won’t at the highest level (imho0.

Stones should have got his nudge in first.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Stones should have got his nudge in first.

Yep, you could tell his first thought was towards the ball and how can I play from here.  He misjudged the line of the ball, and paid the price.  I was delighted.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

28 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Disagree that strength is the most important.  Positional sense, awareness of danger, awareness of runs the split second you look up at the ball, etc. We take the stereotype of a big, strong, Centre Back to extremes.  I do agree that Hegeler isn’t like that, but he has other qualities, as i’ve Stated.

You’ll notice that in the past i’ve Actually been critical of Flint’s lack of aggression, but he has addressed that this season....think Che Adams goal last season.

As for Stones, he got caught a little bit wrong-footed, but then brushed aside by "we sold Coutinho, but we’ve got Bobby" Firminho.  Really poor.  All he needed to do was get his right arm out a bit and Firminho can’t get the nudge.  Poor at any level.  It is why Ferdinand became class and Stones won’t at the highest level (imho0.

I never expected the Spanish inquisition.

"our two weapons are fear and surprise and ruthless efficiency, ........................are our 3 weapons, i'll come in again".

[Davefevs]

40 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I never expected the Spanish inquisition.

"our two weapons are fear and surprise and ruthless efficiency, ........................are our 3 weapons, i'll come in again".

No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition  

[Mr Popodopolous]

On Taylor and Hegeler.

I thought while Tayloe was at least providing a steady stream of assists, or reasonable numbers anyway he was worth persisting with. One vs Manchester aside however, these seem to have dried up and combined with the fact he wasn't terribly prolific for us it doesn't look positive. He scored v Palace too, again in the Cup.

Hegeler- always thought he's best placed between the defence and the midfield. Whether he is needed except for shoring up purposes or trying to slow the tempo down late on in this system, would be another matter IMO. Never really saw him as a centre back tbh

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

The most important part about being a CB is being strong and not to be eased off of the ball easily, something Stones did not illustrate today with Liverpool's 2nd goal, I thought Hegeler was easy to ease off of the ball and more worrying was when holding the line he would invariably be the one to step out prematurely leaving space in behind.

I would rate him as an older version of Magnússon.

John Stones recently had season average passing accuracy of 97%. That is the most important part of his game.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

John Stones recently had season average passing accuracy of 97%. That is the most important part of his game.

That might be the best part of his game but he is employed as a defender which should be the most important part of his game and today he was poor.

[Cowshed]

11 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

That might be the best part of his game but he is employed as a defender which should be the most important part of his game and today he was poor.

I would politely suggest that Man City employ players based on their footballing ability. This also applies for a centre back like Stones and goal keepers. Possession is the most important part of the teams game. It is what the team is based upon.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

Stick to the plan, gambling on promotion could badly break what we have started here which is stability and sustainable progression.  Over performance shouldn't be a reason to deviate neither should underperforming.  

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

I would politely suggest that Man City employ players based on their footballing ability. This also applies for a centre back like Stones and goal keepers. Possession is the most important part of the teams game. It is what the team is based upon.

May I politely suggest that Man City shipped 4 goals yesterday and Mr 97% played like a drain and they had 64.4% of the possession and lost, I am well aware about Pep’s philosophy but I doubt very much that even he would have been impressed by Stones weak performance yesterday.

Manc are the best team mainly because they spent the most money, is Pep a footballing genius?, who knows, we might get a better idea if he had ever coached a team with no money.

[Cowshed]

1 minute ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

May I politely suggest that Man City shipped 4 goals yesterday and Mr 97% played like a drain and they had 64.4% of the possession and lost, I am well aware about Pep’s philosophy but I doubt very much that even he would have been impressed by Stones weak performance yesterday.

Manc are the best team mainly because they spent the most money, is Pep a footballing genius?, who knows, we might get a better idea if he had ever coached a team with no money.

The tactical flexibility of having highly technical players in every position leads to less mistakes and more points gained.

Having a great defender who is not technically great on the ball leads to less tactical flexibility and less points gained.

Mr 97% keeps the a ball more, his teammates keep the ball more, they attack more, shoot more, are more tactical and have lost one game this season. I expect Mr Guardiola will not be getting the hair he does not have off about one game,

Is Pep a footballing genius? Yes. His teams display brilliance and tactical ingenuity. Manchester City play a brand of 4-3-3 that is new and exciting, and not a copy of Barcelona. The man affects football culture. His ideas are affecting English coaches positively even at grass roots level. Genius all day long.

[Abraham Romanovich]

17 hours ago, Red Right Hand said:

Stick with the plan IMO. If we don`t go up, so be it and anyone who suffered the fallout post Hull can surely never want to go through those wilderness years again.

 

I agree stick with the plan -one only has to look at Brighton's experiences, prior to being promoted it was a 3 horse race for the top 2 they missed out on goal difference and and had a disaster in the playoffs.

Nothing changed the following season justed added a couple of players there was no mass exodus and they continued to stick to their plan and achieved promotion.

This is just the start of our journey

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

32 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The tactical flexibility of having highly technical players in every position leads to less mistakes and more points gained.

Having a great defender who is not technically great on the ball leads to less tactical flexibility and less points gained.

Mr 97% keeps the a ball more, his teammates keep the ball more, they attack more, shoot more, are more tactical and have lost one game this season. I expect Mr Guardiola will not be getting the hair he does not have off about one game,

Is Pep a footballing genius? Yes. His teams display brilliance and tactical ingenuity. Manchester City play a brand of 4-3-3 that is new and exciting, and not a copy of Barcelona. The man affects football culture. His ideas are affecting English coaches positively even at grass roots level. Genius all day long.

I would love to be able to judge his tactical ability at a team with little or no money to spend on players, not at clubs that occupy 3 of the top 5 places in world for wealth and at a club with the worlds richest owners.

I wouldn't mind betting that even Pep will be going through defensive drills this week on the training.

 

PS:- 2 games now by the way they struggled against a lil old team from the championship, maybe LJ found the key to Pandora's box.

PPS:- My this season genius award would go to Roy Hodgson, turned Palace around and even gotten Benteke to look as if he gives a shit.

[Welcome To The Jungle]

My problem is that if we invest in a big player or two, they'd also demand big wages. If we fail to go up we go back to 2012 with players on big wages that are perhaps not good enough.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

4 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I think eliasson looks an excellent signing. Still not sure on mags, but steadily improving so still too early to say with him. Engvall still too young to say, as is Taylor Moore. Although we might have overpaid for both. And Taylor for 300k has been a very good bit of business. He was a huge part of our cup run and keeping us up last season, when it seemed no one else could form a partnership with Tammy. Hegeler the one very bad signing imo.

Opinions, I don't think Magnússon is improving and I believe LJ is only playing him more because needs must with our injury situation. Engvall might be too young who knows?, but if he is no closer to first team football than the day that we signed him and it would appear a reluctance to go out on loan in the English leagues, we may never know.

As for Eliasson I have said in the same way that ODowda took time to blossom and improve his overall game prior to his injury, hopefully we will the best of him next season.

As for Taylor everything that you mentioned is and has been consigned to the history books, his league form (which should be his bread and butter) is poor and he has not impacted games that he has started in or those where he came on as a sub, I don't see him as a championship player.

[Kid in the Riot]

21 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I think most of us will agree that so far we have had an unbelievable and probably unexpected season.

I for one would have settled for mid table flirting with a chance of the play offs.

But has our success and the rise to 2nd in the table and for once the plaudits of the so called experts given us a problem?.

And that problem is surely which route do we now choose?.

Do we go for it financially in this window or stick to the plan?. Neither of course can guarantee success but one might give us a better chance obviously.

For me our real problems are going to occur once the season is over, if we miss automatic promotion, fail in the play offs or even fail to make the play offs, will the now backbone/experienced and most talented players want away especially given the experience of prem opposition in the league cup.

Flint, Baker, Bryan and Reid, imagine losing all 4?, IMO it would be almost like a starting from a scratch position for us and instead of building upon the success of this season, we will be rebuilding once more. I believe sadly that we could probably allow Flint and Bryan to leave and still push on but losing all 4 would be a disaster.

So are we going to be the Crewe of the championship? or the Bournemouth of the championship?, it is a fine line and a realisation of how far we have progressed in such a short time and the problems that that success brings, it’s never easy is it?.

Interesting post. There's certainly a balance to be had IMO and I am a little concerned that our two January signings thus far are young lads who are pretty inexperienced (very in the case of Walsh). 

If you look at clubs that get promoted from this division they tend to have plenty of experienced, older players and that's something we lack at the moment. I quite like the way Brighton did it, after missing out on the play-offs they signed Glenn Murray to lead their line. Bags of experience and goals. Also Hemed and Steve Sidwell. Those are statement signings that will get you promoted. I hope that if we are in this division next season that the club look at signings like those as we'll be in a very good position to attract that type of player. 

On the flip side of course it does feel like we've had our fingers burnt a few times recently with this type of signing ie El Abd, O-Neil, Tomlin, Hegeler, Odemwingie etc. But as you've pointed out our success rate on younger/potential signings isn't as good as some would make out either...

[Cowshed]

22 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I would love to be able to judge his tactical ability at a team with little or no money to spend on players, not at clubs that occupy 3 of the top 5 places in world for wealth and at a club with the worlds richest owners.

I wouldn't mind betting that even Pep will be going through defensive drills this week on the training.

 

PS:- 2 games now by the way they struggled against a lil old team from the championship, maybe LJ found the key to Pandora's box.

PPS:- My this season genius award would go to Roy Hodgson, turned Palace around and even gotten Benteke to look as if he gives a shit.

I don't think at the zenith of football Mr Guardiola's ability to coach Manor Farm would be relevant. Its his ability with outliners that is important.

You have moved away from the point regarding Stones again. He is an outliner. The metric that is of most importance in his game is his passing ability, it is why he was signed, and it is why others like Ederson are at this particular club, it is not just money. It is not because goal keeping and defending are the most important factors of their game, because they are not. Goal keeping and defending in this Man City team is possession.

I wouldn't mind betting that even Pep will be going through defensive drills this week on the training ... No doubt all teams do. And I have no doubt Mr Guardiola will be paying attention to the Rondo's,  small sided passing drills etc go to make sure their game speed which let them down for once playing through the thirds (first) is up to the intensity required.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

24 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Interesting post. There's certainly a balance to be had IMO and I am a little concerned that our two January signings thus far are young lads who are pretty inexperienced (very in the case of Walsh). 

If you look at clubs that get promoted from this division they tend to have plenty of experienced, older players and that's something we lack at the moment. I quite like the way Brighton did it, after missing out on the play-offs they signed Glenn Murray to lead their line. Bags of experience and goals. Also Hemed and Steve Sidwell. Those are statement signings that will get you promoted. I hope that if we are in this division next season that the club look at signings like those as we'll be in a very good position to attract that type of player. 

On the flip side of course it does feel like we've had our fingers burnt a few times recently with this type of signing ie El Abd, O-Neil, Tomlin, Hegeler, Odemwingie etc. But as you've pointed out our success rate on younger/potential signings isn't as good as some would make out either...

Our problem could be that if we don't show some 'here and now' ambition in this window given the position that we find ourselves in, some of our more ambitious better players might use that as an excuse to move on in the summer if we fail with auto or play offs or even fail to get into the play offs, a marquee signing might tip the balance in favour of one more season, however our season ends, that's my point.

[Guest chevron12345]

23 hours ago, Alex_BCFC said:

Stick with the plan. It might take another 3 years but we are heading the right way. 

Good players come and go but our overall strategy looks good to me - pick up young quality players. We only sell for crazy money like Kodjia so not everyone will go at once. I really don't think Baker or Reid will go anywhere either. Bryan maybe and Flint is less likely than it was but still it's possible. 

Johnson still at City in 3 years if not promoted? Doubt it.

[phantom]

8 minutes ago, chevron12345 said:

Johnson still at City in 3 years if not promoted? Doubt it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38257893

[Robbored]

15 minutes ago, chevron12345 said:

Johnson still at City in 3 years if not promoted? Doubt it.

SL sees LJ as an integral part of his long term plan for establishing stability within the club.

Too many managers have come and gone in SLs time and each time when they're sacked it causes huge disruption in the entire club because it's not just the manager that goes it's his entire backroom staff as well.

The new man comes in with his own staff and own ideas and everything starts again. The entire playing squad gets unsettled with a new man in charge. Lansdown is breaking that cycle and the main reason he didn't sack him last season.

LJ wil be at City long term whether he achieves promotion or not.

[Guest chevron12345]

39 minutes ago, phantom said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38257893

So what? Means nothing in football.

23 minutes ago, Robbored said:

SL sees LJ as an integral part of his long term plan for establishing stability within the club.

Too many managers have come and gone in SLs time and each time when they're sacked it causes huge disruption in the entire club because it's not just the manager that goes it's his entire backroom staff as well.

The new man comes in with his own staff and own ideas and everything starts again. The entire playing squad gets unsettled with a new man in charge. Lansdown is breaking that cycle and the main reason he didn't sack him last season.

LJ wil be at City long term whether he achieves promotion or not.

:laugh:. Unless he leaves for another job!! 

And if he carries on with such success good luck to him if he decides to move to a bigger project...in few years time that is.

 

[phantom]

38 minutes ago, chevron12345 said:

So what? Means nothing in football.

Other clubs aren't owned by SL

[Guest chevron12345]

2 hours ago, phantom said:

Other clubs aren't owned by SL

Think your misunderstanding. If LJ wants to leave for a new project that certainly won’t be SL decision. He won’t ask for his permission to leave for a bigger club.

[Davefevs]

9 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Is Pep a footballing genius? Yes. His teams display brilliance and tactical ingenuity. Manchester City play a brand of 4-3-3 that is new and exciting, and not a copy of Barcelona. The man affects football culture. His ideas are affecting English coaches positively even at grass roots level. Genius all day long.

It is open to debate though.  Could he for example re-build Arsenal without being able to out-muscle all other teams financially in the Prem.

That is the outstanding question.....Barca, Bayern and City are financial heavyweights in their country.  Of course Spain has Real too, and this country has Man Utd and Chelsea offering stern competition.

I don’t know the answer.

I will say that he learned quickly that last season no game is a guaranteed 3 pointer, like in Spain and Germany.

[Cowshed]

34 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It is open to debate though.  Could he for example re-build Arsenal without being able to out-muscle all other teams financially in the Prem.

That is the outstanding question.....Barca, Bayern and City are financial heavyweights in their country.  Of course Spain has Real too, and this country has Man Utd and Chelsea offering stern competition.

I don’t know the answer.

I will say that he learned quickly that last season no game is a guaranteed 3 pointer, like in Spain and Germany.

As a coach it is not open to question. Barcelona have reshaped how people think about football. At the heart of that was Mr Guardiola. His methodology has seeped into FA coaching course and affects football from its grass roots up to the EPL and across the globe. 

Mr Guardiola has won titles in two nations and looks to be heading to being a champion in another nation. Money? So what. In each of those nations his teams have been wonderful to watch, and each has played a style of football that is quite different to the other.

His Man City team is like a think tank of ideas. He pursues tactical innovation. His use of 4-3-3 displays passages of play that are unique in football because of his innovative ideas in employing a Keeper (Ederson), who is the equivalent at times of Paul Scholes with the accuracy and length of his distribution.

The only person to match him, and at one point statistically outperform him was Mr Mourinho who Spain apart pursues a dour path. I would also label Mr Mourinho a genius who guarantees success, the rest don't. The major difference is that Mr Mourinho is not going to leave the same legacy, he will not alter the way people think about and play football world wide.

[Davefevs]

@Cowshed - do you think he could rebuild Arsenal though?  Curious.

[Cowshed]

39 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@Cowshed, - do you think he could rebuild Arsenal though?  Curious.

I will say yes.

He has improved players - Sterling. Arsenal players could also benefit.

He has despite the reputation of being all about the money brought in Alonso for a low fee elsewhere. I would suggest the signing of Stones who at the time I posted about on here would represent value, was a quality footballer(not a joke), and had the rare ability in an English player to play such a pivotal role in a Guardiola side would be a success. These are the types of players Arsenal could have afforded if they had a man like Mr Guardiola in charge. Arsenal have spent forty million plus on signings, they are not the paupers. of football

 

[Alex_BCFC]

7 hours ago, chevron12345 said:

Johnson still at City in 3 years if not promoted? Doubt it.

I've no idea but it's totally irrelevant to the overall strategy of the club. 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I will say yes.

He has improved players - Sterling. Arsenal players could also benefit.

He has despite the reputation of being all about the money brought in Alonso for a low fee elsewhere. I would suggest the signing of Stones who at the time I posted about on here would represent value, was a quality footballer and not a joke, and had the rare ability in an English player to play such a pivotal role in a Guardiola side, is the type of player Arsenal could have afforded if they had a man like Mr Guardiola in charge.Arsenal have spent forty million plus on signings they are not paupers.

 

Ta.

Please don’t get me started on Stones 

As a Centre-Back, I cringe at the way he defends.  I’m actually shocked by some of the defending he does...and other ‘rated’ CBs in the Prem.  But I guess Pep just wants him to play football out from the back.  I think City, for all their qualities on the ball, will fall foul in the latter stages of the Champions League when they come up against the technical sides, who can start to share possession more equally.

[Cowshed]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Ta.

Please don’t get me started on Stones 

As a Centre-Back, I cringe at the way he defends.  I’m actually shocked by some of the defending he does...and other ‘rated’ CBs in the Prem.  But I guess Pep just wants him to play football out from the back.  I think City, for all their qualities on the ball, will fall foul in the latter stages of the Champions League when they come up against the technical sides, who can start to share possession more equally.

Stats for you. John Stones errors that have led to goals this season - One. That puts him in the echelons of EPL defenders. He wins as many duels in the air as a certain Mr Flint. 1 v 1's top notch again ... Distribution one of the best in Europe. The latter is more important than the former to Man City.

 

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Stats for you. John Stones errors that have led to goals this season - One. That puts him in the echelons of EPL defenders. He wins as many duels in the air as a certain Mr Flint. 1 v 1's top notch again ... Distribution one of the best in Europe. The latter is more important than the former to Man City.

 

Stats, Stats and Damned Lies, or something like that!!

[Cowshed]

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Stats, Stats and Damned Lies, or something like that!!

And they are a significant part of Lee Johnson's approach to football ...

[jj77]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

And they are a significant part of Lee Johnson's approach to football ...

He's not won anything with them yet.

[Cowshed]

50 minutes ago, jj77 said:

He's not won anything with them yet.

I am taking the thread wildly off tangent (again), but I do not understand your point?

[Esmond Million's Bung]

With all of his passing ability and lack of defensive qualities, where does that leave him as an England international CB?.

 

[Cowshed]

52 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

nWith all of his passing ability and lack of defensive qualities, where does that leave him as an England international CB?.

 

As pointed out John Stone's aerial ability, defending 1v1, lack of error statically put him alongside the very best in the EPL. Liverpool have paid a huge sum for similar.

Mr Southgates thoughts on the future player, England dna would again indicate how much emphasis he puts on playing out through thirds v booting it.  And this is Joh Stones ... His exceptional passing ability offers Mr Southgate more tactical flexibility. The use of Walker and Rose pushed up and central defenders splitting, and often splitting unusually deep, the use of Stones as a form of short passing quarterback by Mr Southgate would indicate A. England's Manager rates John Stones B. He has been watching Manchester City very closely = If fit, he is playing.  

 

[BCFC_Dan]

Brighton and Leicester spent several years narrowly failing to win promotion before finally doing it. I don't know how the makeup of their squad changed over those seasons or if they "went for it" in January of any seasons, but clearly it is possible to endure several seasons of not-quite-good-enough before getting there.

We have a squad of good young players who are only going to get better, a development squad absolutely stacked to the rafters with potential future first teamers and a team that plays excellent football and appears to have a lot of fun doing so. One or two may decide they need to move on for their careers but if I were in their shoes I'd think very carefully about what I was leaving.

If we fall away and finish 7th-12th it'll be disappointing but will still be in line with the more optimistic predictions for the season. It'll represent a good progression on last season and a good foundation for success next season. The only concern would be that it would likely mean the team had suffered a fairly catastrophic loss of form for the second season running. That would be something for the management to look very closely at.