What would you do...

[ScottishRed]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

....if you were a Championship player playing for us, knowing that if we had a chance of going up, you wouldn't get a look in if we went up?

Make sure we finish safely inside the top half, but not in the play offs...or try and go for it regardless?

You live comfortably near or in  Bristol, have a good contract and you like playing for a team in the Championship, with good owner, nice manager and nice fans.

Why would you put all that in jeopardy if we had a chance of going up, being sold or not playing first team football?

A certain Mr Mcindoe implied this in one of his posts this season.

It's worth thinking about. Why screw a nice settled job up, if you've done just enough to impress and do well...but not well enough to go up?

As a Pro footballer...think about it ;-)

If that was the case you would like to think that the coaching stuff would weed them out pronto!

Unless of course they too felt the same way.

In the case of our club, regardless of what you think of LJ, he certainly appears a very ambitious guy with a very firm belief in his own abilities, therefore I doubt he would accept players coasting along in their comfort zones.

And whilst I agree that playing for City in the Championship is a pretty good gig you would hope that has professional sportsmen they would have ambitions of seeing how far their talent can take them.

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Are you for real 

So even in your and the original posts dreamed up scenario

Lets suppose , say , Pack thinks this way 

He wouldn’t want the promotion bonus or wage rise would he

And if he had to move from the club he’d just helped get promoted to the Prem - what future would he have

I mean it’s not as if any  other Championship club would be interested in offering him a nice wage to join 

I think you don't quite understand the gist of the op Bob.

You use Pack as an example. Now he's settled in area is a regular starter and obviously loves playing for City. Should City reach the PL and he's deemed surplus to requirements, would he really want to leave the area, disrupt his family and move to another Championship club where he may not be a regular ?  My guess is, no he wouldn't and I daresay that several players are in a similar position.

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

This is what you have a manager for, spud. Someone in charge, overseeing everything, weighing people up, and then making decisions. The "DNA" assessment/guesswork doesn't end with a player signing on the dotted line; it is ongoing, everyday, every training session, how do they respond to setbacks? to end of season pressure? to end of season on-the-beach games? How do they respond to anything and everything?

This is management. This is what Ferguson was brilliant at. Sussing players out.

If we did have players with the sort of attitude problem you suggest, it is the job of the head coach/manager to see it and weed them out. And then recruit the ones with the desirable mentality, the "winner" mentality.

So if we do have players that are coasting now, and they are in the starting X1 next August/September, then there's only one employee responsible. It always comes back to the one man in charge.

It's what he is paid for. And it is never acceptable for him to rock up in the boardroom and explain that our disappointing form/failure to reach the play-offs/failure to reach set targets/whatever, is because we have some players who were quite comfortable where they are, thanks very much.

I'd expect the board or owner to ask of such a coach: why have we recruited players like this?

Hi mate...I've not suggested we have players like this.

I posed a question and a scenario. Based on the fact that SOME footballers do think like this.

Some players also get a move for the money, then find it's not what they want and make a plan to get out of the Club.

IMO...Engval has done this and Tomlin is doing it right now, with a hope to get sold again to Forest.

All sorts goes on in a players mind, as it's a job. Plus circumstances at football clubs change constantly.

 

[spudski]

5 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

Read your post again...it's nothing more than stirring.

if you believe it to be true then why not have the balls to name players you think have this attitude at AG?

If you don't believe any City players are like that then why make the post in the first place?

A poor post, and yours is, will attract criticism.

Don't bite then ;-)

[Major Isewater]

33 minutes ago, MigratedRobin said:

Surely most of the players will believe that they're good enough to be part of the squad next season if we're promoted?

And they  will have a promotion on their CV , a nice bonus and hero status in Bristol for the rest of their lives. 

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

4 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I think you don't quite understand the gist of the op Bob.

You use Pack as an example. Now he's settled in area is a regular starter and obviously loves playing for City. Should City reach the PL and he's deemed surplus to requirements, would he really want to leave the area, disrupt his family and move to another Championship club where he may not be a regular ?  My guess is, no he wouldn't and I daresay that several players are in a similar position.

If you truly believe that 

I’d suggest you don’t understand professional footballers

[spudski]

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I think you don't quite understand the gist of the op Bob.

You use Pack as an example. Now he's settled in area is a regular starter and obviously loves playing for City. Should City reach the PL and he's deemed surplus to requirements, would he really want to leave the area, disrupt his family and move to another Championship club where he may not be a regular ?  My guess is, no he wouldn't and I daresay that several players are in a similar position.

If people think this doesn't happen RR, they are sadly misinformed.

As for no player putting in a shift, 100% of the time, as someone else implied, they are also sadly mistaken.

It's a job...do any of us put in 100% every day?

Players get complacent just like anyone else. It's a job to them...unfortunately so many see everything through a fans eyes.

 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, spudski said:

Don't bite then ;-)

Poor, very poor response from you.

almost if not actually,  an attempt to backtrack.

[Bazooka Joe]

1 hour ago, RedDave said:

People said this when we last got to the olay offs. Its nonsense

That's a rather sneaky plug.......other moisturisers are also available,

[spudski]

7 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

Poor, very poor response from you.

almost if not actually,  an attempt to backtrack.

Not at all mate...no back tracking. But you've asked me to name names, and you've not read my op properly or my further responses.

You've read it one way, when I've written it in a completely different way.

However, you seem to want to see it your way, regardless of what I've explained.

No hard feelings fella...nothing is meant by it, and it wasn't meant to antagonise.

I think though the timing on my part was probably wrong and i'm getting a backlash because of feelings running high atm.

[downendcity]

33 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

And they  will have a promotion on their CV , a nice bonus and hero status in Bristol for the rest of their lives. 

 

.... as opposed to the pariahs they were until Brownhill's equaliser this afternoon!

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, spudski said:

Not at all mate...no back tracking. But you've asked me to name names, and you've not read my op properly or my further responses.

You've read it one way, when I've written it in a completely different way.

However, you seem to want to see it your way, regardless of what I've explained.

No hard feelings fella...nothing is meant by it, and it wasn't meant to antagonise.

I think though the timing on my part was probably wrong and i'm getting a backlash because of feelings running high atm.

Nah, RR is your only company, that's a clue as to why the backlash ha.

Of course that attitude is out there, it's the suggestion it is prevalent or unintended implication it could be at the core of a young, improving squad such as our own.  

[Cowshed]

24 minutes ago, spudski said:

If people think this doesn't happen RR, they are sadly misinformed.

As for no player putting in a shift, 100% of the time, as someone else implied, they are also sadly mistaken.

It's a job...do any of us put in 100% every day?

Players get complacent just like anyone else. It's a job to them...unfortunately so many see everything through a fans eyes.

 

That is a very different proposition to your opening post. Football is not a job like any other. My job does not require me to be totally outside of normal emotional, mental and physical thresholds.

Its virtually impossible for a football player to be 100% because that requires a game of perfection.

What you are implying is not complacency. Complacency is not an extrinsic driver. Complacency is normally associated with teams that are winning week on week. What you are implying is that players are being motivated by not winning, not performing, not trying and doing so consciously to protect themselves. A percentile of a percentile might  ... The overwhelming majority will not.

[downendcity]

33 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

If you truly believe that 

I’d suggest you don’t understand professional footballers

Pro footballers have careers to manage, families to think of and their lives after football to take into consideration.

We all grew up playing football as a game and would have given our eyeteeth to play for City, but for professional footballers it is a lot more than and it is not inconceivable that for some they will have conflicting feelings regarding our chances of promotion and how this would affect them personally.

[spudski]

1 minute ago, 29AR said:

Nah, RR is your only company, that's a clue as to why the backlash ha.

Of course that attitude is out there, it's the suggestion it is prevalent or unintended implication it could be at the core of a young, improving squad such as our own.  

I've always been a leader and not a follower mate...happy with my own thoughts and company. Don't need 'likes' or agreement all the time ;-)

You've chosen to see it as it being prevalent and implied...far from it.

Blimey...you could have a field day in this place if you were that way inclined. :laugh: ;-)

 

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

That is a very different proposition to your opening post. Football is not a job like any other. My job does not require me to be totally outside of normal emotional, mental and physical thresholds.

Its virtually impossible for a football player to be 100% because that requires a game of perfection.

What you are implying is not complacency. Complacency is not an extrinsic driver. Complacency is normally associated with teams that are winning week on week. What you are implying is that players are being motivated by not winning, not performing, not trying and doing so consciously to protect themselves. A percentile of a percentile might  ... The overwhelming majority will not.

I agree....a Majority won't.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

Not at all mate...no back tracking. But you've asked me to name names, and you've not read my op properly or my further responses.

You've read it one way, when I've written it in a completely different way.

However, you seem to want to see it your way, regardless of what I've explained.

No hard feelings fella...nothing is meant by it, and it wasn't meant to antagonise.

I think though the timing on my part was probably wrong and i'm getting a backlash because of feelings running high atm.

In your opening post you referred to living in or near Bristol, of playing in the Championship, so were you talking about  City players or not? The inference was you were, and given today's result you were bound to get some replies from people who were unhappy about the result and might support your (hypothetical) argument.

You haven't antagonised me at all, I'm simply challenging both your post and its timing,  which are both poor in my opinion.

 

[Robbored]

1 minute ago, downendcity said:

Pro footballers have careers to manage, families to think of and their lives after football to take into consideration.

We all grew up playing football as a game and would have given our eyeteeth to play for City, but for professional footballers it is a lot more than and it is not inconceivable that for some they will have conflicting feelings regarding our chances of promotion and how this would affect them personally.

Shame you had to explain DC. To most of us Spudski's post is an interesting take on things but unfortunately some posters simply don't have the wherewithal to see what he's saying.

[screech]

Didn't we hear this same nonsense with Danny Wilsons team. Of course they want to go up, they just aren't consistent or as a team, good enough to.

[spudski]

1 minute ago, Countryfile said:

In your opening post you referred to living in or near Bristol, of playing in the Championship, so were you talking about  City players or not? The inference was you were, and given today's result you were bound to get some replies from people who were unhappy about the result and might support your (hypothetical) argument.

You haven't antagonised me at all, I'm simply challenging both your post and its timing,  which are both poor in my opinion.

 

I agree...timing, and antagonising was a poor decision.

However...in the cold light of day, maybe during an International break, it would have gotten a more reasoned and thoughtful response.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, spudski said:

I agree...timing, and antagonising was a poor decision.

However...in the cold light of day, maybe during an International break, it would have gotten a more reasoned and thoughtful response.

Many of the replies have been both reasoned and thoughtful, perhaps you should have not included the cloaked inferences that you did.

Probably a mistake to include MM to support your theory, unless you 've lent him a fiver  recently.

As a coach perhaps you can enlighten us in how you spot these players and how you deal with them?

[spudski]

1 minute ago, Countryfile said:

Many of the replies have been both reasoned and thoughtful, perhaps you should have not included the cloaked inferences that you did.

Probably a mistake to include MM to support your theory, unless you 've lent him a fiver  recently.

As a coach perhaps you can enlighten us in how you spot these players and how you deal with them?

It's not a theory...since MM mentioned it, I asked around. I wasn't expecting the conversations I had tbh.

I personally don't think we have many players like I alluded too...simply because we have gone for many young and hungry players.

But imo, I do think we have some. Which I'm not going to mention, as I know how this forum works. Mention something, and before you know it, it becomes fact or twisted.

As for spotting them...I'd be looking at age, experience, previous achievements, what leagues they have played, in, whether they have been promoted before, motivation, how settled, married, kids, contract, ability, how they train, outside influences, what their future goals were etc.etc.

I do know from talking to previous City Scouts, that we have not signed players, even though talented, due to some of those mentioned. Hence the DNA the club now speak about.

 

[Lanterne Rouge]

30 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Pro footballers have careers to manage, families to think of and their lives after football to take into consideration.

We all grew up playing football as a game and would have given our eyeteeth to play for City, but for professional footballers it is a lot more than and it is not inconceivable that for some they will have conflicting feelings regarding our chances of promotion and how this would affect them personally.

In a similar vein a mate of mine could never fathom why a player would move from say, Hull to Leeds when he could have moved to Southampton who were a `better` side. He couldn`t get his head round the fact that outside of football they have kids settled at school, a partner who has a career, a house they like living in and all the other things that us `normal` folks have and a few quid extra on top of an already substantial wage wasn`t the be all and end all if it meant disrupting all that.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, spudski said:

It's not a theory...since MM mentioned it, I asked around. I wasn't expecting the conversations I had tbh.

I personally don't think we have many players like I alluded too...simply because we have gone for many young and hungry players.

But imo, I do think we have some. Which I'm not going to mention, as I know how this forum works. Mention something, and before you know it, it becomes fact or twisted.

As for spotting them...I'd be looking at age, experience, previous achievements, what leagues they have played, in, whether they have been promoted before, motivation, how settled, married, kids, contract, ability, how they train, outside influences, what their future goals were etc.etc.

I do know from talking to previous City Scouts, that we have not signed players, even though talented, due to some of those mentioned. Hence the DNA the club now speak about.

 

That's a list of things to check BEFORE signing them,  you have written that we don't have MANY of those players, so in your opinion we do have some, so  who are they, and what In particular  leads you to think we have such players?

People may argue about your choices, but clearly you think we do have such players so I see no reason for you not to name them and your reasoning behind your choices. We can then have a healthy debate on the topic rather than debate the innuendo of your opening post, which as you admit was designed to get people to 'bite'.

[daored]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

The players were happy to do just enough at the Club to get picked and earn a new contract.

They often became 'matey' with the manager, didn't make waves, went along with anything that was said, played to instruction and generally became a good all rounded egg at the club.

Others who wanted a move, did the opposite.

I've asked this a lot of some agents since first speaking about it, and it's something that really isn't spoken about, but it made for interesting listening and something I hadn't really thought about before. After listening, from a job perspective and not a fans, it makes sense.

Like I said in my OP...I didn't say it was happening here, but it does happen with some players.

Unfortunately after a result that upset a few, it will fall on deaf ears and be seen as rubbish or not to their liking.

Probably the wrong time to have posted it

I agree to a certain extent to what you say. However, I think possibly another factor is when a football club says, they’re not looking for promotion. As an employee (which players are) what message does that send out?

I think there are a number of reasons why our form has dropped since Xmas though 

[spudski]

1 minute ago, Countryfile said:

That's a list of things to check BEFORE signing them,  you have written that we don't have MANY of those players, so in your opinion we do have some, so  who are they, and what In particular  leads you to think we have such players?

People may argue about your choices, but clearly you think we do have such players so I see no reason for you not to name them and your reasoning behind your choices. We can then have a healthy debate on the topic rather than debate the innuendo of your opening post, which as you admit was designed to get people to 'bite'.

I'm not mentioning them for the reasons I stated. That's my reason, and I'm not changing that decision, regardless of what you want. I don't see the point of debating about which players on a forum. It would be pointless. However... nothing wrong in reading something on a forum and mulling it over in your own mind and coming to your own decisions and conclusions. Which is something I often do...

Everything doesn't have to be debated openly. Somethings can be read, mulled over, and thought about in the comfort of your own home whilst enjoying a nice whisky ;-)

 

[stephenkibby.]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Are you for real 

So even in your and the original posts dreamed up scenario

Lets suppose , say , Pack thinks this way 

He wouldn’t want the promotion bonus or wage rise would he

Oh no

And if he had to move from the club he’d just helped get promoted to the Prem - what future would he have

Confetence ?

League Two ?

I mean it’s not as if any  other Championship club would be interested in offering him a nice wage to join 

eh

 

I find it hard to imagine that you could win any game at this level with half your side going through the motions.

How would that even work? Shall I dip out of that tackle, will I not play that through ball because we might score, I won't chase after the winger he hopefully can cross for a goal.

Could be a cracking last game of the season against Sheff Utd with players on both sides desperately trying not to make the play offs in front of a sold out Ashton Gate.

After all what player would want a chance to show what he's capable of in a play off final.

Then our management team might consider there not up to life in the premier league  so are happy to roll along

All in all a total load of bollocks.

[RumRed]

Poor run of form and a certain poster appears on numerous threads explaining to us mere mortals how none of this is the management team's fault.  They hired them (but not Engvall apparently, that was the last lot, hypothetically) they put the team out and they set the tactics?

 

I'm guessing i'm going to get a response that includes the words 'fine margins' and if i'm really lucky 'fella'.

It's balls, the management have failed since the transfer window.

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Ladies and gentlemen you have entered......................................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVSRm80WzZk

[Cidre Monita]

They all have promotion rises and bonuses . Ask a few players about your theory. The squad is primarily under 30 and vast majority want to play at the highest level. 

 Complete fantasy. Again.