Does the Club Employ a Sports Psychologist?

[Robin101]

Like everyone else, I’ve been trying to understand what is behind our schizophrenic existence. For three months brilliant, for three months terrible. This has been replicated over at least two seasons for us, and - strangely - at Barnsley for Johnson as well. 

I can only imagine it must be, to a large extent, down to the confidence and belief of our players (and perhaps even staff?). Bristol City must look to employ a sports psychologist - form is not entirely down to physical fitness. 

If we already do employ a psychologist at the club then... perhaps they should be the first out the door because they don’t appear to be doing a great job. 

[Dr Balls]

At the rate we are going, we will need a hypnotist and/or psychiatrist, let alone a competent psychologist!

[BobBobSuperBob]

5 minutes ago, Robin101 said:

Like everyone else, I’ve been trying to understand what is behind our schizophrenic existence. For three months brilliant, for three months terrible. This has been replicated over at least two seasons for us, and - strangely - at Barnsley for Johnson as well. 

I can only imagine it must be, to a large extent, down to the confidence and belief of our players (and perhaps even staff?). Bristol City must look to employ a sports psychologist - form is not entirely down to physical fitness. 

If we already do employ a psychologist at the club then... perhaps they should be the first out the door because they don’t appear to be doing a great job. 

I think you’ll find they do

Im sure LJ talked about it in one of his interviews 

 

Psychological 

or

 

Attitude ?

[Robin101]

3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I think you’ll find they do

Im sure LJ talked about it in one of his interviews 

 

Psychological 

or

 

Attitude ?

Surely psychology and attitude are much intertwined?

[BobBobSuperBob]

Just now, Robin101 said:

Surely psychology and attitude are much intertwined?

Guess so

But for example, if a player knows he’s not going to be here next year and is on the beach , can a psychologist.be expected to resolve that

[Olé]

9 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

At the rate we are going, we will need a hypnotist and/or psychiatrist, let alone a competent psychologist!

Think an exorcist would be handy at the moment too.

[redapple]

It’s the fans in need of psychiatric help. 

[Wrongagain]

Yes they do have one, but he has not been given access to the management suite,they are quite happy with their state of denial

[Cowshed]

14 minutes ago, Robin101 said:

Like everyone else, I’ve been trying to understand what is behind our schizophrenic existence. For three months brilliant, for three months terrible. This has been replicated over at least two seasons for us, and - strangely - at Barnsley for Johnson as well. 

I can only imagine it must be, to a large extent, down to the confidence and belief of our players (and perhaps even staff?). Bristol City must look to employ a sports psychologist - form is not entirely down to physical fitness. 

If we already do employ a psychologist at the club then... perhaps they should be the first out the door because they don’t appear to be doing a great job. 

Yes they do. 

Psychology is not witch craft. In football much of it is focusses on preparation. If Lee Johnson's preparation is poor a psychologists work cannot be as effective.

[Gert Mare]

1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Guess so

But for example, if a player knows he’s not going to be here next year and is on the beach , can a psychologist.be expected to resolve that

I agree. Players have agents, agents want commission. If offers are on the table the agent won’t want his man to be busting a gut and risk blowing the deal in the summer if the player gets injured, so the player half heartedly goes through the motions to get the games out of the way and set themselves up nicely for their big move.

You only had to listen to what Pep Guardiola said about being offered Pogba to know that these parasites are out to get their money and don’t give a damn about loyalty and what the present clubs plans are!

We need to understand what goes on in the professional game these days. It’s like being on a different planet to the real world.

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

Just said on another thread 

‘Lost the dressing room’ is thrown around in football and can mean so many things

But

LJ DH & JMc can’t get a tune out of these players at the moment 

The reason 

But they can’t , have admitted they can’t and that they don’t know why

Thats a big worry for me 

 

 

[Jack Dawe]

Bill Beswick is the man, used on a consultancy basis, so probably a bit "as and when." The focus for this work will be the players but the organisation as a whole might want to be open to some honest reflection, and feedback. 

[CotswoldRed]

The psychologist is off sick at the moment with stress. 

[DaveInSA]

We should get Paddy Upton in. He’s done amazing things in the cricket world as a coach (actually he’s a psychologist). 

[Dr Balls]

So after my rather flippant comment, now to something more serious.

I work in an environment which can be extremely stressful and challenging, and one of the major concerns is burnout, in that professionals give so much of themselves that they just run out of steam. Sound familiar?

The club talks of the "DNA" of players (a phrase I hate as it's so scientifically incorrect - as does "Private Eye" if you find the relevant section, so its not just me being a pedant) during the "due diligence" process, but what they really mean is character and temperament. What gets people through difficult times at work and in high level sport is resilience, often an inner reserve of mental strength to draw upon. Ironically, this frequently comes from experience, as people have learnt to deal with smaller challenges in the right way, so that when something big comes along, they can manage it, believe in themselves & handle it in a way that doesn't affect their day-to-day performance & standards, or resort to diversions (alcohol, drugs, gambling etc). At times, this may need some appropriate support, hence an experienced coaching or management team, and indeed a sports psychologist. 

Given our boom & bust season, and the tendency for this to happen on a regular basis with LJ, you do start to wonder if he just doesn't have it within him or know what to do to pick up a team of dis-spirited players. Some of the players might have a greater degree of resilience and belief within them (is it a coincidence that both Frankie & Bobby still seem up to it, given the challenges they have faced in their careers st the club?) while others need more support. Some may be over-thinking things, while others may be naturally less confident, (you can decide which for each player) but what you can't have is a team where the majority of players are going through the same thing. That may well be at the root of this spiral downwards of performance & results, especially after the highs against the 2 Manchester teams, and then capitulations against Sundetland & Leeds. Even in the games where we have done well, we have needed to score early, and at the moment we seem unable to even shoot straight let alone score, so as soon as the opposition score, the heads drop. Add in loan players who were low on confidence before joining, and you could end up with a pretty toxic brew.

On that basis, LJ's chopping & changing is a bit more understandable, although perhaps he should have said "fresh heads" rather than "fresh legs" were needed against Brentford. It still doesn't completely excuse some of the team selections or substitutions. Perhaps we just need the season to end ASAP without too much more damage caused, and a decent break for the players and coaching staff to revive, then start again.

[Spoons]

38 minutes ago, Robin101 said:

Like everyone else, I’ve been trying to understand what is behind our schizophrenic existence. For three months brilliant, for three months terrible. This has been replicated over at least two seasons for us, and - strangely - at Barnsley for Johnson as well. 

I can only imagine it must be, to a large extent, down to the confidence and belief of our players (and perhaps even staff?). Bristol City must look to employ a sports psychologist - form is not entirely down to physical fitness. 

If we already do employ a psychologist at the club then... perhaps they should be the first out the door because they don’t appear to be doing a great job. 

Think otib need a physcologist not the club!! 

[Spoons]

3 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

The psychologist is off sick at the moment with stress. 

Stress...the new bad back. A famous quote from my tosser of a area manager!!

[BS4 on Tour...]

2 hours ago, Robin101 said:

Like everyone else, I’ve been trying to understand what is behind our schizophrenic existence. For three months brilliant, for three months terrible. This has been replicated over at least two seasons for us, and - strangely - at Barnsley for Johnson as well. 

I can only imagine it must be, to a large extent, down to the confidence and belief of our players (and perhaps even staff?). Bristol City must look to employ a sports psychologist - form is not entirely down to physical fitness. 

If we already do employ a psychologist at the club then... perhaps they should be the first out the door because they don’t appear to be doing a great job. 

Apparently we use a couple...https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/lee-johnson-explains-how-bristol-549888

[Tears in rain]

Believe the club uses a few different ones and they do so on a consultant basis.

Means they aren’t always attached to the club for long periods (not always a good thing).

Depends how and what they want the psychologist to work on as well. Preparation? Confidence? Team dynamics? 

 

[CheddarReds]

We even have one for the academy these days

[Clevedon Red]

[Curr Avon]

4 hours ago, Olé said:

Think an exorcist would be handy at the moment too.

At least he'll come up with decent crosses!

[Bazooka Joe]

No, the advert was worded incorrectly, and they recently employed a Psychopath, who is a life-long City fan.

He has guaranteed performance and results will now improve, but the injury list may be much longer with more "departures".

[Jack Dawe]

Alex Ferguson was probably the greatest sports psychologist we've seen in English football, although Shankly and Clough were not bad at this either. All the great managers had a way with this (not that it was called "sports psychology" back then).

Shankly and Fergie dealt with this - the effect of the mind on a player's performance - by recruiting very specifically for the desired "character" and "temperament," what has now become "DNA" in today's football (as @Dr Balls notes, above). If they did bring in a wrong 'un, they shipped him out soon as possible (see Lee Tomlin).

That's how you do sport psychology: let someone else buy the (often more talented) temperamentally difficult and have all that to deal with, and "manage"; and instead seek out and buy in the driven, mentally robust, lads with great "character" and a will-to-win that never quits.

A bit like how a batsman best plays hostile fast bowling in cricket: from the other end.

I would hope that Lee uses the s.psychologist as Brendan Rodgers used Steve Peters at Liverpool.

 

 

[spudski]

18 hours ago, Jack Dawe said:

Alex Ferguson was probably the greatest sports psychologist we've seen in English football, although Shankly and Clough were not bad at this either. All the great managers had a way with this (not that it was called "sports psychology" back then).

Shankly and Fergie dealt with this - the effect of the mind on a player's performance - by recruiting very specifically for the desired "character" and "temperament," what has now become "DNA" in today's football (as @Dr Balls notes, above). If they did bring in a wrong 'un, they shipped him out soon as possible (see Lee Tomlin).

That's how you do sport psychology: let someone else buy the (often more talented) temperamentally difficult and have all that to deal with, and "manage"; and instead seek out and buy in the driven, mentally robust, lads with great "character" and a will-to-win that never quits.

A bit like how a batsman best plays hostile fast bowling in cricket: from the other end.

I would hope that Lee uses the s.psychologist as Brendan Rodgers used Steve Peters at Liverpool.

 

 

It must be an absolute ball ache these days trying to get players motivated and do as they are being asked.

The majority of us grew up in a generation where the education system, parenting and world in general believed in discipline in a different way to today.

We live in a world now, where it's all about showing love and giving positive energy. No verbal or physical blasting, no verbal kick up the backside so to speak.

These young lads who play for us, grew up in a totally different world. Discipline as we know it is so far removed.

LJ recently said, that the personalities at this club now are totally different to the play off squad of 2008...only 10 years ago. They apparently don't respond to negative comments, and need to feel loved and given positives all the time.

There is massive pressure in this generation of being successful...and many suffering from anxiety because it doesn't come quick enough. They are surrounded by people in social media land and entertainment, who have become successful for just being them...no talent, no work ethic...just appearing on tv etc.

These lads train and play...yet, they are like anyone else of their age, and go home and relax and watch and listen to all the social media rubbish just like the next person.

How do you motivate this soft generation to basically go to war every Saturday and Tuesday? No discipline to speak of during your normal life, then you have to do it with aggression during match's, with all the fans giving you abuse? It's totally different to how society is these days.

Football is like going to war....you join the Army and it's full on discipline, shouting, rants, being told how useless they are....broken then brought up.

How do you really get these players to run through brick walls for you these days, when they are wrapped in cotton wool, told how great they are and can't deal with being told or discipline like many of us know?

[Cowshed]

3 minutes ago, spudski said:

It must be an absolute ball ache these days trying to get players motivated and do as they are being asked.

The majority of us grew up in a generation where the education system, parenting and world in general believed in discipline in a different way to today.

We live in a world now, where it's all about showing love and giving positive energy. No verbal or physical blasting, no verbal kick up the backside so to speak.

These young lads who play for us, grew up in a totally different world. Discipline as we know it is so far removed.

LJ recently said, that the personalities at this club now are totally different to the play off squad of 2008...only 10 years ago. They apparently don't respond to negative comments, and need to feel loved and given positives all the time.

There is massive pressure in this generation of being successful...and many suffering from anxiety because it doesn't come quick enough. They are surrounded by people in social media land and entertainment, who have become successful for just being them...no talent, no work ethic...just appearing on tv etc.

These lads train and play...yet, they are like anyone else of their age, and go home and relax and watch and listen to all the social media rubbish just like the next person.

How do you motivate this soft generation to basically go to war every Saturday and Tuesday? No discipline to speak of during your normal life, then you have to do it with aggression during match's, with all the fans giving you abuse? It's totally different to how society is these days.

Football is like going to war....you join the Army and it's full on discipline, shouting, rants, being told how useless they are....broken then brought up.

How do you really get these players to run through brick walls for you these days, when they are wrapped in cotton wool, told how great they are and can't deal with being told or discipline like many of us know?

And these young men are fitter, more athletic, faster, more technically skilled than football players have ever been.

These players did not leap out the womb that way.

That requires discipline, mental toughness ... 

Maybe previous generations were the softies? Not man enough to do that extra work to run further and get faster. Not hard enough to work endlessly on their touch.   Fifteen years ago Bristol City players were regularly preparing mentally and physically on the piss in West Street for matches and training.

Now that is different. Football moves on.

The challenges have simply altered. The skilled, truly skilled Managers and coaches adjust and evolve.

 

[Sparkz 76]

Were mentally weak and that shows in the team move the weak players on and bring in strong simple 

[spudski]

19 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

And these young men are fitter, more athletic, faster, more technically skilled than football players have ever been.

These players did not leap out the womb that way.

That requires discipline, mental toughness ... 

Maybe previous generations were the softies? Not man enough to do that extra work to run further and get faster. Not hard enough to work endlessly on their touch.   Fifteen years ago Bristol City players were regularly preparing mentally and physically on the piss in West Street for matches and training.

Now that is different. Football moves on.

The challenges have simply altered. The skilled, truly skilled Managers and coaches adjust and evolve.

 

I agree with all of that...however it's now a mixed message in the world.

I found when training young people to race, that although focussed on what they were doing, they were surrounded by others that weren't.

They didn't respond well to criticism or negative comments to start with, but later understood the reasons when mixed with positives. It was finding a balance.

My fellow coach's that purely went down the softly softly approach from the start, got good results early on, but then results got worse, discipline in the teams got worse, and it was often the case that the youngsters had lost respect for their coach and were less motivated, as they knew there would be no consequence apart from not doing so well.

They were happy with that though....they found a comfort zone, where they were neither winners or losers...just a middle ground of comfort.

I mixed both...I told them how it was. Had them in tears some days. Had parents having a go at me.

I asked them what they wanted....to stroll through life being a jack of all trades or to be the best?

They hated me at the beginning, yet loved me at the end, when they saw all the hard work and hard words showed results, which in turn gave them joy and made them better people in their chosen sport and as people through life.

I often think about this when I see what's happening at our club. How LJ has said the players respond better to love and positives....which results showed early doors. But now....they are replicating what I saw with my fellow coach's who always used the softly softly approach.....early results and then a tailing off and comfort zone.

Perhaps theirs a correlation to this.

I personally don't think softly softly only works for long term results.

[Cowshed]

40 minutes ago, spudski said:

I agree with all of that...however it's now a mixed message in the world.

I found when training young people to race, that although focussed on what they were doing, they were surrounded by others that weren't.

They didn't respond well to criticism or negative comments to start with, but later understood the reasons when mixed with positives. It was finding a balance.

My fellow coach's that purely went down the softly softly approach from the start, got good results early on, but then results got worse, discipline in the teams got worse, and it was often the case that the youngsters had lost respect for their coach and were less motivated, as they knew there would be no consequence apart from not doing so well.

They were happy with that though....they found a comfort zone, where they were neither winners or losers...just a middle ground of comfort.

I mixed both...I told them how it was. Had them in tears some days. Had parents having a go at me.

I asked them what they wanted....to stroll through life being a jack of all trades or to be the best?

They hated me at the beginning, yet loved me at the end, when they saw all the hard work and hard words showed results, which in turn gave them joy and made them better people in their chosen sport and as people through life.

I often think about this when I see what's happening at our club. How LJ has said the players respond better to love and positives....which results showed early doors. But now....they are replicating what I saw with my fellow coach's who always used the softly softly approach.....early results and then a tailing off and comfort zone.

Perhaps theirs a correlation to this.

I personally don't think softly softly only works for long term results.

That is a question of skills and judgement.. 

Mr Johnson and Mr Ashtons recruits in the main are failing to nail down positions in the starting XI ... You will see exactly where I have gone with that.

There are great motivators, good and Mr Johnson at this point. 

 

[CheddarReds]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

It must be an absolute ball ache these days trying to get players motivated and do as they are being asked.

This might be of interest relating to motivation of that generation, Spud.

But to answer your thoughts specific to coaching and discipline I think it's worth considering how a more modern style of coaching can benefit an athlete.

Previously it was very much that a coach had all the power, athletes had little input and were often all treated to similar treatment.

One of my favourite videos on Sir Alex is where Rooney says he was screamed at during a half time team talk for dribbling. Rooney revealed Sir Alex was shouting at him but he meant it for Nani. He knew Nani wouldn't take that, but Rooney would, and that the message would also get to Nani. By knowing his athletes and treating them differently he got the desired result.

But also by being less disciplinary and making the athlete responsible for their learning 1) it should make them more motivated as often we're all more motivated to act and perfect our thoughts rather than someone else telling us what to do 2) they'll become better problem solvers 3) they'll have to go through the process of figuring it out for themselves (rather than it being given instantly, see video above) 4) if you get the athletes to interact while doing this you can also develop social skills.

If you're clever enough with questioning you can even lead them to the answers you want, while giving them an illusion of empowerment, so you reap the benefits that comes with that while getting the conclusion you wanted.

I think those benefits, and a generation that probably is a bit vulnerable already, are why we're seeing less and less discipline as it used to be and why they're are plenty of benefits for it. I agree that sometimes a kick up the arse is needed, but that should be based on their effort rather than result.