Does the Club Employ a Sports Psychologist?

[CyderInACan]

Maybe get Clinton Baptiste from Phoenix Nights in. 

[RedM]

Wonder how other teams manage their players then? Does Warnock show nothing but love and kindness? Take Millwall, who with the greatest respect have no real ‘names’, their fans seemed loud and vocal when they were happy with them, hate to think what they would dish out if they weren’t satisfied with what they were seeing. 

I was disciplined quite toughly by my Dad, regularly got hit as a child/teenager, and by hit I mean with bit of wood etc. Times change and I never touched either of my two, but bloody hell they were disciplined. They knew right from wrong and I think they are better people for it. I think you have to have both ends of the scale to find your level and then push on to better, in sport and in life in general. 

[spudski]

24 minutes ago, CheddarReds said:

This might be of interest relating to motivation of that generation, Spud.

But to answer your thoughts specific to coaching and discipline I think it's worth considering how a more modern style of coaching can benefit an athlete.

Previously it was very much that a coach had all the power, athletes had little input and were often all treated to similar treatment.

One of my favourite videos on Sir Alex is where Rooney says he was screamed at during a half time team talk for dribbling. Rooney revealed Sir Alex was shouting at him but he meant it for Nani. He knew Nani wouldn't take that, but Rooney would, and that the message would also get to Nani. By knowing his athletes and treating them differently he got the desired result.

But also by being less disciplinary and making the athlete responsible for their learning 1) it should make them more motivated as often we're all more motivated to act and perfect our thoughts rather than someone else telling us what to do 2) they'll become better problem solvers 3) they'll have to go through the process of figuring it out for themselves (rather than it being given instantly, see video above) 4) if you get the athletes to interact while doing this you can also develop social skills.

If you're clever enough with questioning you can even lead them to the answers you want, while giving them an illusion of empowerment, so you reap the benefits that comes with that while getting the conclusion you wanted.

I think those benefits, and a generation that probably is a bit vulnerable already, are why we're seeing less and less discipline as it used to be and why they're are plenty of benefits for it. I agree that sometimes a kick up the arse is needed, but that should be based on their effort rather than result. 

I've used that many times fella, and I think I may have shown it on here before. It rings very true. Good call mate.

[Chicken George]

It’s a load of nonsense and a nice little earner / cottage industry. 

The motivator / psychology should come from the manager. That’s his job. To manage to team / players. That means making sure they are fit, have relevant instructions and are motivated to play. 

Why should someone else be employed to do the managers job? 

If Johnson isn’t doing this then he’s not being a “manager”. 

If players are playing below their expected performance levels then they should be dropped. That’s how they’ll learn. Sorry son, you’ve played shit lately. You’re out of the squad and you won’t be getting your squad bonus this week. Show me in training that you’re ready for a recall and we’ll discuss it. 

[CheddarReds]

15 minutes ago, spudski said:

I've used that many times fella, and I think I may have shown it on here before. It rings very true. Good call mate.

I think I first saw it on here actually, likely in one of your posts!  

[View from the Dolman]

12 minutes ago, Enter Sandman said:

It’s a load of nonsense and a nice little earner / cottage industry. 

The motivator / psychology should come from the manager. That’s his job. To manage to team / players. That means making sure they are fit, have relevant instructions and are motivated to play. 

Why should someone else be employed to do the managers job? 

If Johnson isn’t doing this then he’s not being a “manager”. 

If players are playing below their expected performance levels then they should be dropped. That’s how they’ll learn. Sorry son, you’ve played shit lately. You’re out of the squad and you won’t be getting your squad bonus this week. Show me in training that you’re ready for a recall and we’ll discuss it. 

Lee Johnson isn't the "manager".

[Chicken George]

1 minute ago, View from the Dolman said:

Lee Johnson isn't the "manager".

Semantics 

[Cowshed]

30 minutes ago, Enter Sandman said:

It’s a load of nonsense and a nice little earner / cottage industry. 

The motivator / psychology should come from the manager. That’s his job. To manage to team / players. That means making sure they are fit, have relevant instructions and are motivated to play. 

Why should someone else be employed to do the managers job? 

If Johnson isn’t doing this then he’s not being a “manager”. 

If players are playing below their expected performance levels then they should be dropped. That’s how they’ll learn. Sorry son, you’ve played shit lately. You’re out of the squad and you won’t be getting your squad bonus this week. Show me in training that you’re ready for a recall and we’ll discuss it. 

All players will sometimes go below expected performance levels. That is normal. Being dropped is not the sole way a player will learn. They may not be even be able to understand why - A player can appear at the top of his game in training but fail to reproduce this in a match. The Manager may not understand either when seemingly everything is in place for an individual who appears physically, tactically, technically  up to the task does not perform consistently to standard ... Anybody who thinks its case of "Mate get your ******* head out of your arse and run more" is failing to understand that is low level psychology in itself  

Why should someone else be employed to do the managers job? They are not. They add expertise. Advice, ideas ... The where's of looking at differing elements that drive performance beyond physical, technical and tactical. Its additional support alongside coaches.  

The Managing remains Managing.

[BCFCinNW6]

1 hour ago, CyderInACan said:

Maybe get Clinton Baptiste from Phoenix Nights in. 

i'm getting the word....

 

 

 

 

[Chicken George]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

All players will sometimes go below expected performance levels. That is normal. Being dropped is not the sole way a player will learn. They may not be even be able to understand why - A player can appear at the top of his game in training but fail to reproduce this in a match. The Manager may not understand either when seemingly everything is in place for an individual who appears physically, tactically, technically  up to the task does not perform consistently to standard ... Anybody who thinks its case of "Mate get your ******* head out of your arse and run more" is failing to understand that is low level psychology in itself  

Why should someone else be employed to do the managers job? They are not. They add expertise. Advice, ideas ... The where's of looking at differing elements that drive performance beyond physical, technical and tactical. Its additional support alongside coaches.  

The Managing remains Managing.

I never said it’s a case of “get your head out of your backside”, but it is very much a case of if a player isn’t performing then he should be dropped. 

Football is a very very simple game. It’s been hugely over complicated with nonsense like this. They should go and play the game, if they play well, great. If they don’t play well for a sustained period then they will be losing their place and will need to demonstrate to the manager that they deserve to win it back. 

It is a managers job to make these decisions and to influence the players performances. There’s no need for this softly softly, fluffy get in the players head and understand his issues nonsense. 

If they play well. Praise them. If them play shit, point out to them where they were shit and what they need to do to be better.  A football manager should be able to do that without the outside help of a counsellor! 

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, Enter Sandman said:

I never said it’s a case of “get your head out of your backside”, but it is very much a case of if a player isn’t performing then he should be dropped. 

Football is a very very simple game. It’s been hugely over complicated with nonsense like this. They should go and play the game, if they play well, great. If they don’t play well for a sustained period then they will be losing their place and will need to demonstrate to the manager that they deserve to win it back. 

It is a managers job to make these decisions and to influence the players performances. There’s no need for this softly softly, fluffy get in the players head and understand his issues nonsense. 

If they play well. Praise them. If them play shit, point out to them where they were shit and what they need to do to be better.  A football manager should be able to do that without the outside help of a counsellor! 

It was...now, not so sure.

If it is though, and forget the psychology or whatnot for a bit but simplicity...let's go and play 4-4-2 traditional style the last 5 games and see what we get? Don't get much simpler setups than that.

Definitely though, sports psychology is here to stay in football. Players need handling differently these days, to coax the best out of them.

[Chicken George]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It was...now, not so sure.

If it is though, and forget the psychology or whatnot for a bit but simplicity...let's go and play 4-4-2 traditional style the last 5 games and see what we get? Don't get much simpler setups than that.

Definitely though, sports psychology is here to stay in football. Players need handling differently these days, to coax the best out of them.

Football being simple doesn’t automatically equate to a basic 442. 

Footballers have football brains. They can understand how football works and it’s very simple (like most footballers). The game, their lifestyle, their well-being is all over complicated by nonsense like sports psychologists. Someone has made a lot of money out of convincing ‘football’ that they are a necessary part of the game. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Enter Sandman said:

Football being simple doesn’t automatically equate to a basic 442. 

Footballers have football brains. They can understand how football works and it’s very simple (like most footballers). The game, their lifestyle, their well-being is all over complicated by nonsense like sports psychologists. Someone has made a lot of money out of convincing ‘football’ that they are a necessary part of the game. 

Fair enough.

I'm inclined to think that because it's increasingly becoming a part of the game now, it's probably best if we have one or we may fall behind. On the fence though.

[Chicken George]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Fair enough.

I'm inclined to think that because it's increasingly becoming a part of the game now, it's probably best if we have one or we may fall behind. On the fence though.

Exactly my friend. “Everyone else is doing it so we’d better do it as well”. 

Football has been convinced of its necessity on a simple peer-pressure premise. 

[Cowshed]

22 minutes ago, Enter Sandman said:

I never said it’s a case of “get your head out of your backside”, but it is very much a case of if a player isn’t performing then he should be dropped. 

Football is a very very simple game. It’s been hugely over complicated with nonsense like this. They should go and play the game, if they play well, great. If they don’t play well for a sustained period then they will be losing their place and will need to demonstrate to the manager that they deserve to win it back. 

It is a managers job to make these decisions and to influence the players performances. There’s no need for this softly softly, fluffy get in the players head and understand his issues nonsense. 

If they play well. Praise them. If them play shit, point out to them where they were shit and what they need to do to be better.  A football manager should be able to do that without the outside help of a counsellor! 

Yes it is the Managers job. 

Managers like the fluffy fluffy softly softly Alex Ferguson who used the expertise (nonsense!) of Bill Beswick.

 

 

 

[Davefevs]

On 08/04/2018 at 15:15, Jack Dawe said:

Alex Ferguson was probably the greatest sports psychologist we've seen in English football, although Shankly and Clough were not bad at this either. All the great managers had a way with this (not that it was called "sports psychology" back then).

Shankly and Fergie dealt with this - the effect of the mind on a player's performance - by recruiting very specifically for the desired "character" and "temperament," what has now become "DNA" in today's football (as @Dr Balls notes, above). If they did bring in a wrong 'un, they shipped him out soon as possible (see Lee Tomlin).

That's how you do sport psychology: let someone else buy the (often more talented) temperamentally difficult and have all that to deal with, and "manage"; and instead seek out and buy in the driven, mentally robust, lads with great "character" and a will-to-win that never quits.

A bit like how a batsman best plays hostile fast bowling in cricket: from the other end.

I would hope that Lee uses the s.psychologist as Brendan Rodgers used Steve Peters at Liverpool.

 

 

Shipping the wrong uns out these days is much harder, without paying them off!

LJ in fairness did a good job getting rid of Tomlin for £2m

[Chicken George]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Yes it is the Managers job. 

Managers like the fluffy fluffy softly softly Alex Ferguson who used the expertise (nonsense!) of Bill Beswick.

 

 

 

Well, from just a little bit of research I can see that Ferguson wasn’t really fully on board with this approach and it was actually Steve McLaren who convinced Ferguson to use Beswick when McLaren was Ferguson’s assistant. Beswick then went with McLaren wherever he went. So I’d say it’s not really an important part of fergies success. 

[Jack Dawe]

7 hours ago, Enter Sandman said:

It’s a load of nonsense and a nice little earner / cottage industry. 

The motivator / psychology should come from the manager. That’s his job. To manage to team / players. That means making sure they are fit, have relevant instructions and are motivated to play. 

Why should someone else be employed to do the managers job? 

If Johnson isn’t doing this then he’s not being a “manager”. 

If players are playing below their expected performance levels then they should be dropped. That’s how they’ll learn. Sorry son, you’ve played shit lately. You’re out of the squad and you won’t be getting your squad bonus this week. Show me in training that you’re ready for a recall and we’ll discuss it. 

 

4 hours ago, Enter Sandman said:

Exactly my friend. “Everyone else is doing it so we’d better do it as well”. 

Football has been convinced of its necessity on a simple peer-pressure premise. 

 

4 hours ago, Enter Sandman said:

Football being simple doesn’t automatically equate to a basic 442. 

Footballers have football brains. They can understand how football works and it’s very simple (like most footballers). The game, their lifestyle, their well-being is all over complicated by nonsense like sports psychologists. Someone has made a lot of money out of convincing ‘football’ that they are a necessary part of the game. 

You appear to be quite frustrated/cross about this. Your somewhat exasperated thoughts above suggests you don't have a clear - if any - understanding of what a sports psychologist is or does. One of their key and very first tasks would be to simplify things, to de-clutter the mind, for whoever they work with, be that coaches or individual sportsmen/women. The suggestion that they "over complicate" a footballer's "lifestyle" is simply wrong, and a bit silly. Although, a very bad sports psychologist might do so. I'll give you that.

"Footballers have football brains," yes, but they also have very ordinary, human minds too. Like you and me. Full of fears, anxiety, doubt, and all the things that get in the way of each and every one of us reaching our potential.

Would it help if I remind you that Johnson was a player himself once? and knows and remembers how a player feels and how the mind is so important. Critical. If you do not recognise or accept the critical importance of the mind to a pro sportsman then we are way too far apart on this one to bother continuing to discuss, and we can leave it. 

If only dropping below-par players was the answer; Bobby Reid has had plenty of that. It was something more nuanced than that that has transformed him this season.

The truth most probably is that there is no one simple and obvious solution to our current slump in form. And that's an infuriating, maddening frustration we are all going to have to live with - you, me, Johnson, all of us - for the time being.

 

 

[Chicken George]

1 hour ago, Jack Dawe said:

 

 

You appear to be quite frustrated/cross about this. Your somewhat exasperated thoughts above suggests you don't have a clear - if any - understanding of what a sports psychologist is or does. One of their key and very first tasks would be to simplify things, to de-clutter the mind, for whoever they work with, be that coaches or individual sportsmen/women. The suggestion that they "over complicate" a footballer's "lifestyle" is simply wrong, and a bit silly. Although, a very bad sports psychologist might do so. I'll give you that.

"Footballers have football brains," yes, but they also have very ordinary, human minds too. Like you and me. Full of fears, anxiety, doubt, and all the things that get in the way of each and every one of us reaching our potential.

Would it help if I remind you that Johnson was a player himself once? and knows and remembers how a player feels and how the mind is so important. Critical. If you do not recognise or accept the critical importance of the mind to a pro sportsman then we are way too far apart on this one to bother continuing to discuss, and we can leave it. 

If only dropping below-par players was the answer; Bobby Reid has had plenty of that. It was something more nuanced than that that has transformed him this season.

The truth most probably is that there is no one simple and obvious solution to our current slump in form. And that's an infuriating, maddening frustration we are all going to have to live with - you, me, Johnson, all of us - for the time being.

 

 

No, not frustrated about it at all. I just think it’s baloney. 

As for Reid’s transformation, I can’t imagine this is anything to do with a psychologist, more to do with his manager saying “I know you’re a talented lad Bob, but things ain’t working out for you in centre mid. Do you wanna try to operate a bit further forward, get yourself in pockets of space and use your energy and effervescence to hound the opposition - I think you’ll revel in the role”. 

I’d be very surprised if LJ had to get another bloke in to sit with Bob and go through pretty pictures in his mind “imagining” himself being successful in the role. Just a simple case of matching up ability with the right tactical deployment - let’s not pretend it’s rocket science. 

[EnclosureSurge]

On 4/8/2018 at 08:38, Robin101 said:

Like everyone else, I’ve been trying to understand what is behind our schizophrenic existence

To be fair, I haven't (I'm obviously not "everyone else"). 

It's just football. We can't do anything about it even if we did understand it. The players can't understand it, the management can't, the Board can't, the Sports Psycho - if we have one - can't. 

It happens to a lot of teams. Either going from up there to down there or vice versa.

If - and it's probably not gonna happen, almost deffo not - if we made it to 6th now, winning v Brum and Boro and 1 other with other results going our way, would we understand why? Probably not.

Sit back, enjoy the ride, trendy Wendy, you know what I mean?

It's the City, innit?!

[Cowshed]

7 hours ago, Enter Sandman said:

Well, from just a little bit of research I can see that Ferguson wasn’t really fully on board with this approach and it was actually Steve McLaren who convinced Ferguson to use Beswick when McLaren was Ferguson’s assistant. Beswick then went with McLaren wherever he went. So I’d say it’s not really an important part of fergies success. 

And a little bit more research would have indicated it was Mr Ferguson who hired him and unless Steve McClaren was also connected to the England rugby team (soft?) plus sports such as besketball he cannot have followed him everywhere. 

[Ivorguy]

4 hours ago, EnclosureSurge said:

To be fair, I haven't (I'm obviously not "everyone else"). 

It's just football. We can't do anything about it even if we did understand it. The players can't understand it, the management can't, the Board can't, the Sports Psycho - if we have one - can't. 

It happens to a lot of teams. Either going from up there to down there or vice versa.

If - and it's probably not gonna happen, almost deffo not - if we made it to 6th now, winning v Brum and Boro and 1 other with other results going our way, would we understand why? Probably not.

Sit back, enjoy the ride, trendy Wendy, you know what I mean?

It's the City, innit?!

Sorry I think this is nonsense. Of course none of us looking in from the outside know why we have done so badly this year, but that does not mean there aren't reasons.  Those inside the club must have some idea of what has gone wrong.  If they don't then they should seek outside professional help like any other business.

[EnclosureSurge]

5 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

Sorry I think this is nonsense. Of course none of us looking in from the outside know why we have done so badly this year, but that does not mean there aren't reasons.  Those inside the club must have some idea of what has gone wrong.  If they don't then they should seek outside professional help like any other business.

If you read properly, I haven't said, anywhere, there aren't reasons, nor implied that. I've said, clearly, it happens and that I'm not looking for the reasons. Quite simple really. Not nonsense. If "Those inside the club must have some idea of what has gone wrong" how come so little is being done to put it right. That's nonsense.