planning for the next slump

[where's the joy]

the best bit of planning for next season the directors could address is how to break out of the 'LJ slump' 

you can bet we will have at least one next season based on past experience and they do tend to last for extended periods

do we bring in a temporary extra coach, do we make LJ drive the coach, do we ask LJ to stop coaching altogether until the slump is over?

these are the vital questions for the board to ponder.

we loved the good times and being in 2nd place in december 2017

but that sense of impending doom will dampen our hopes for next year without a plan to bounce out of any slump. so lets be 'aving you. 

[frenchred]

Just sack him!

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

7 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Just sack him!

What an extraordinary place this forum is!

[spudski]

Whilst there has been slumps with LJ...I don't think ours this season has anything to do with what LJ has been doing perse.

I look at the injuries we've had...many long term, illnesses...have said Patto looks like he has something wrong with him, and again last week he was away ill.

We've had so, so many injuries this season. So the squad effectively got smaller. Add to that players having to play more time to cover, then in turn getting tired and niggles and having to play through them.

That takes it's toll...it all adds up.

Then the players come back 'fit'....but not match fit, so have to play catch up.

That in turn makes things harder as a team...we struggle to get going, confidence gets hit...and it has a downward spiral, because the players will feel it and know it when playing on the pitch.

It's those fine margins that make a difference. We haven't been absolutely walloped apart from Villa...but imo, the culmination of all those facts, and then you add the coach trying to find a way to overcome that, like all managers it won't always work, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

It's no coincidence that we've taken a downturn since January...you only have to look at what's happened to the playing staff.

I'm not surprised by the results or performances tbh.

I am surprised we are still within 4 points of a play off place.

Even more so.....we are 9 points higher than the teams below us.

It really is a league of two halves this season it seems.

I then look at a team like Derby and all that they have been building over the past few years and see them struggling and put the whole thing into perspective and realise we really aren't in that bad a position overall.

I think we will build next season again.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, spudski said:

Whilst there has been slumps with LJ...I don't think ours this season has anything to do with what LJ has been doing perse.

I look at the injuries we've had...many long term, illnesses...have said Patto looks like he has something wrong with him, and again last week he was away ill.

We've had so, so many injuries this season. So the squad effectively got smaller. Add to that players having to play more time to cover, then in turn getting tired and niggles and having to play through them.

That takes it's toll...it all adds up.

Then the players come back 'fit'....but not match fit, so have to play catch up.

That in turn makes things harder as a team...we struggle to get going, confidence gets hit...and it has a downward spiral, because the players will feel it and know it when playing on the pitch.

It's those fine margins that make a difference. We haven't been absolutely walloped apart from Villa...but imo, the culmination of all those facts, and then you add the coach trying to find a way to overcome that, like all managers it won't always work, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

It's no coincidence that we've taken a downturn since January...you only have to look at what's happened to the playing staff.

I'm not surprised by the results or performances tbh.

I am surprised we are still within 4 points of a play off place.

Even more so.....we are 9 points higher than the teams below us.

It really is a league of two halves this season it seems.

I then look at a team like Derby and all that they have been building over the past few years and see them struggling and put the whole thing into perspective and realise we really aren't in that bad a position overall.

I think we will build next season again.

Agree with most of this- and yeah despite the scepticism on here, fine margins can play a large part- teams are better prepared, coached and drilled than ever before in history now- the analysis and data used is a world away from even 10 years ago at this level.

That said, the tactics in a number of individual games since Christmas have been questionable IMO- perhaps a bit too brave when a point might have done, or the inexplicable collapse v Sunderland when 3-0 up at home- and to me, draws turned into wins (that game) and losses into draws (Norwich, Bolton and maybe even Wolves)- would have maintained a momentum or at least a stability from which to build and go again. Like you though, given all the injuries I am less surprised now but I was surprised our good run kept going through November up to Wolves at home.

Still, had we avoided losses in those games and beat Sunderland- in the same way as losing can (has?) turned into a habit, as we saw from our golden period of Palace at home in the Cup to Reading at home, 1 loss in all competitions was it- so too can winning.

[Bar BS3]

One day some people might realise that pretty much every club in every division has good & bad periods of form throughout a season. 

Those that don’t, usually end up getting promoted, or relegated. 

Why anyone thinks we have a divine right to just win every game is beyond me! 

We are punching above our weight (historically, budgets, crowds, parachute payments) 

Some people need to stop acting like spoilt brats! 

[Gazred]

Think we'll have a better perspective on this season either during or after the next.

I just don't think we had the strength in depth when it mattered. Came through a very testing spell in Dec where the players gave everything and put in some very good performances. Ultimately disappointing but more positives than negatives overall.

Squad will need to be bolstered in the summer and we go again.

[spudski]

23 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agree with most of this- and yeah despite the scepticism on here, fine margins can play a large part- teams are better prepared, coached and drilled than ever before in history now- the analysis and data used is a world away from even 10 years ago at this level.

That said, the tactics in a number of individual games since Christmas have been questionable IMO- perhaps a bit too brave when a point might have done, or the inexplicable collapse v Sunderland when 3-0 up at home- and to me, draws turned into wins (that game) and losses into draws (Norwich, Bolton and maybe even Wolves)- would have maintained a momentum or at least a stability from which to build and go again. Like you though, given all the injuries I am less surprised now but I was surprised our good run kept going through November up to Wolves at home.

Still, had we avoided losses in those games and beat Sunderland- in the same way as losing can (has?) turned into a habit, as we saw from our golden period of Palace at home in the Cup to Reading at home, 1 loss in all competitions was it- so too can winning.

I agree...nothing has been down to just injuries and what I've mentioned.

No manager/coach is perfect, and I agree, I think at times we've 'gone for it' at times when we shouldn't have.

I also would love to know how the likes of Leko and Kent fit in with us.

Perhaps LJ was looking for that extra club in the bag for different circumstances in games....the 'lob wedges' in the bag so to speak.

It's not perfect...but imo, it's been an entertaining season, and I'd rather have this, than mid table mediocrity every season.

[Major Isewater]

34 minutes ago, spudski said:

Whilst there has been slumps with LJ...I don't think ours this season has anything to do with what LJ has been doing perse.

I look at the injuries we've had...many long term, illnesses...have said Patto looks like he has something wrong with him, and again last week he was away ill.

We've had so, so many injuries this season. So the squad effectively got smaller. Add to that players having to play more time to cover, then in turn getting tired and niggles and having to play through them.

That takes it's toll...it all adds up.

Then the players come back 'fit'....but not match fit, so have to play catch up.

That in turn makes things harder as a team...we struggle to get going, confidence gets hit...and it has a downward spiral, because the players will feel it and know it when playing on the pitch.

It's those fine margins that make a difference. We haven't been absolutely walloped apart from Villa...but imo, the culmination of all those facts, and then you add the coach trying to find a way to overcome that, like all managers it won't always work, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

It's no coincidence that we've taken a downturn since January...you only have to look at what's happened to the playing staff.

I'm not surprised by the results or performances tbh.

I am surprised we are still within 4 points of a play off place.

Even more so.....we are 9 points higher than the teams below us.

It really is a league of two halves this season it seems.

I then look at a team like Derby and all that they have been building over the past few years and see them struggling and put the whole thing into perspective and realise we really aren't in that bad a position overall.

I think we will build next season again.

I look at your last paragraph and get angry over Mark Ashton's ridiculous comment that we weren't ' specifically ' targeting promotion.

Derby have been and are as close to it as we are . 

That is too say that we should have put all our energies into achieving promotion whilst the opportunity was there .

We have been , as a club , so relaxed about the idea of , perhaps, We will , perhaps we won't, that it's not surprising that our ' desire ' on the pitch looks absent.

No one believes . It is complete Bull droppings.

 

Still , never mind , may be next year or the year after ...

 

[EnderMB]

It might be something as simple as the players burning out near the end of the season. We start brilliantly, injuries happen, and players start to make mistakes. We go on a huge dip, and rescue it right at the end.

The easy solution to this is to make a real effort at boosting the squad in January. If LJ can improve our position at the start of next season to allow us to sit in the automatic spots by January, then I think Lansdown should back LJ fully by providing some players to pick up the slack and continue a push towards promotion.

I don't share the doom and gloom of a lot of people on here, but I do think the LJ has made a rod for his own back by displaying both repeated success in the league (for a short time) and a memorable cup run. While I don't necessarily think he's a great manager, I think that investment matters more than coaching, and we'll see how we'll do next season based on how Lansdown backs him.

[spudski]

21 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I look at your last paragraph and get angry over Mark Ashton's ridiculous comment that we weren't ' specifically ' targeting promotion.

Derby have been and are as close to it as we are . 

That is too say that we should have put all our energies into achieving promotion whilst the opportunity was there .

We have been , as a club , so relaxed about the idea of , perhaps, We will , perhaps we won't, that it's not surprising that our ' desire ' on the pitch looks absent.

No one believes . It is complete Bull droppings.

 

Still , never mind , may be next year or the year after ...

 

I disagree Major...that one sentence by MA has been taken out of all context and masses of spin put on it.

You've fallen into the trap of listening to stuff on here, and read it so much you actually believe it.

If people post enough times, it becomes fact it seems.

If the situation to get people in during January was available, do you honestly believe we would turn it down?

You can see from our business, that we have our hinds tied imo. Budgets, contracts, agreements in place etc.

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Whilst there has been slumps with LJ...I don't think ours this season has anything to do with what LJ has been doing perse.

I look at the injuries we've had...many long term, illnesses...have said Patto looks like he has something wrong with him, and again last week he was away ill.

We've had so, so many injuries this season. So the squad effectively got smaller. Add to that players having to play more time to cover, then in turn getting tired and niggles and having to play through them.

That takes it's toll...it all adds up.

Then the players come back 'fit'....but not match fit, so have to play catch up.

That in turn makes things harder as a team...we struggle to get going, confidence gets hit...and it has a downward spiral, because the players will feel it and know it when playing on the pitch.

It's those fine margins that make a difference. We haven't been absolutely walloped apart from Villa...but imo, the culmination of all those facts, and then you add the coach trying to find a way to overcome that, like all managers it won't always work, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

It's no coincidence that we've taken a downturn since January...you only have to look at what's happened to the playing staff.

I'm not surprised by the results or performances tbh.

I am surprised we are still within 4 points of a play off place.

Even more so.....we are 9 points higher than the teams below us.

It really is a league of two halves this season it seems.

I then look at a team like Derby and all that they have been building over the past few years and see them struggling and put the whole thing into perspective and realise we really aren't in that bad a position overall.

I think we will build next season again.

Earlier this year Michael McIndoe posted some interesting comments about our slump.

He commented that the quick temp high pressing game we adopted put great strain on players physically and mentally. He commented that we had been hit hard by injuries to key players before Christmas, and this put extra pressure on the remaining playing staff , causing some players to keep playing even though they were not fully fit. The knock on to this was that the pressing game became tougher to maintain.

MM also commented that Man City  could sustain a similar playing style because they had the financial resource to not only buy the best technical players but those with the best fitness and stamina. We are not at their level so perhaps the physical stress of our playing style, allied to the crippling injury list  caused the bubble to burst. 

Yesterday I listened to a discussion on Talksport about Man City's title win. The presenter asked about Liverpool being able to counter Man C and whether Pep needs to look at a plan B. Danny Murphy replied that Pep didn;t have a plan B at Barca and would;t need one at Citee as he focussed solely on getting play A absolutely right. Pep has been playing this way for years, and with some of the very best players in the world. We have been doing so for just under one season, and with a group of players adapting to a system they probably haven't played before.

In the first half of the season we saw some of the best and most effective football we've had for many a season, so i for one hope we continue to work with a quick tempo pressing game. We are not Man City though, so might have to compromise bit more than them. Does our training and fitness regime need to change to enable us to maintain a pressing game through the season? Will there need to be changes to the squad if some of the current players do not have the right fitness and stamina to see through the season.? Will some of the younger players come into the reckoning as did O'Dowda and Brownhill this season and fit into this style of play?

The other major difference between us and Pep's City is that we will need a plan B, but I think it needs to be more, and better than just hoofing the ball forward to a couple of big strikers. LJ asked for AG pitch to be narrowed to make the pressing game easier to manage, but perhaps our plan B should be to play with more width - we have players like O'Dowda and Elliason capable of giving width and strikers like Fammy and Duric have shown their ability in the air and getting on the end of crosses. 

[pillred]

1 hour ago, Gazred said:

Think we'll have a better perspective on this season either during or after the next.

I just don't think we had the strength in depth when it mattered. Came through a very testing spell in Dec where the players gave everything and put in some very good performances. Ultimately disappointing but more positives than negatives overall.

Squad will need to be bolstered in the summer and we go again.

typical example was sat who didn't gulp a bit when bamford went off injured and boro were able to bring on brit assombalonga

[Mr Popodopolous]

57 minutes ago, spudski said:

I agree...nothing has been down to just injuries and what I've mentioned.

No manager/coach is perfect, and I agree, I think at times we've 'gone for it' at times when we shouldn't have.

I also would love to know how the likes of Leko and Kent fit in with us.

Perhaps LJ was looking for that extra club in the bag for different circumstances in games....the 'lob wedges' in the bag so to speak.

It's not perfect...but imo, it's been an entertaining season, and I'd rather have this, than mid table mediocrity every season.

Tend to agree with a lot of this yeah.

Leko and Kent- could have tried to play them as inside forwards or maybe wingers in a front 3 as opposed to more orthodox wingers. Especially Kent- with a 3 man midfield behind, leaves extra margin for error as and when the ball is turned over.

Overall- I'd give it a 7/10 perhaps, considering the cup run, some great memories- would be significantly higher if not for the slump, that I thought really accelerated in all aspects from Cardiff away to present.

@downendcity Definitely tend to agree with this, but I would add that really our first half of the season can I think be split into 2 or maybe 3 parts- Plan A actually became Plan A+ in a sense, well to me anyway when Diedhiou was injured and we devised the Paterson behind Reid plan. To me- though we scored more goals with Reid and Diedhiou up front, in terms of the 4-4-1-1/4-4-2-0 was when we were at our best, most cohesive and comfortable footballing wise. A small tweak numerically but highly significant in our control over games IMO. Agree that Man City have advantages over us in terms of Plan A to say the least...

Fully agree on the need for a better Plan B too- we have the players for more width or perhaps even more control in midfield with a 4-3-3, and Reid flanked by for example O'Dowda and Bryan or depending on the opposition, Paterson and Bryan in a front 3. This has been one of my biggest bugbears, the lack of imagination and skill in devising and executing this Plan B. Plan C maybe could be the 2 wingers with Diedhiou or Djuric (though I've no desire to drop Reid, a time may come when he is injured or banned) up top- which if executed correctly, can be a long way from lumping it.

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, Gazred said:

Think we'll have a better perspective on this season either during or after the next.

I just don't think we had the strength in depth when it mattered. Came through a very testing spell in Dec where the players gave everything and put in some very good performances. Ultimately disappointing but more positives than negatives overall.

Squad will need to be bolstered in the summer and we go again.

If you disregard the loanees who’d  gone back , the loans  recruited then ignored , or the various (uninjured) signings he’d spent money on but shunned....

I guess we did appear to lack strength in depth 

[ooRya]

22 minutes ago, downendcity said:

 

Yesterday I listened to a discussion on Talksport about Man City's title win. The presenter asked about Liverpool being able to counter Man C and whether Pep needs to look at a plan B. Danny Murphy replied that Pep didn;t have a plan B at Barca and would;t need one at Citee as he focussed solely on getting play A absolutely right. Pep has been playing this way for years, and with some of the very best players in the world. We have been doing so for just under one season, and with a group of players adapting to a system they probably haven't played before.

 

Heard the same discussion.

Interesting that they pointed out that it started with Bristol (City) showing how to play against Man City. That is how good we were, and for me shows that under the current regime, we really can be a force in this league. We just need to find a way to maintain the great form over a whole season.

[Gazred]

8 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

If you disregard the loanees who’d  gone back , the loans  recruited then ignored , or the various (uninjured) signings he’d spent money on but shunned....

I guess we did appear to lack strength in depth 

Perhaps that should read depth and quality.

Loan signings this season have offered next to nothing.

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, Gazred said:

Perhaps that should read depth and quality.

Loan signings this season have offered next to nothing.

And whose fault is that  ?

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 minutes ago, ooRya said:

Heard the same discussion.

Interesting that they pointed out that it started with Bristol (City) showing how to play against Man City. That is how good we were, and for me shows that under the current regime, we really can be a force in this league. We just need to find a way to maintain the great form over a whole season.

A bit pedantic though it is, purely about England- yeah totally. We were great and gave them one of their toughest 2 legs this season.

As a whole? Think Shakhtar and Napoli may have a view on that. Still, I guess the overarching point is that we were the first in this country this season to give them a proper tactical test, to show bravery too and led the way in that regard. Moreover, it shows our capabilities as you say.

[Midred]

I suppose if we looked at everyone's loans this season we would possibly find that apart from one or two of the "high end" loans not too many have prospered or even played. Some players do well with another team but alot don’t. 

[Murraysrightplum]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

Whilst there has been slumps with LJ...I don't think ours this season has anything to do with what LJ has been doing perse.

I look at the injuries we've had...many long term, illnesses...have said Patto looks like he has something wrong with him, and again last week he was away ill.

We've had so, so many injuries this season. So the squad effectively got smaller. Add to that players having to play more time to cover, then in turn getting tired and niggles and having to play through them.

That takes it's toll...it all adds up.

Then the players come back 'fit'....but not match fit, so have to play catch up.

That in turn makes things harder as a team...we struggle to get going, confidence gets hit...and it has a downward spiral, because the players will feel it and know it when playing on the pitch.

It's those fine margins that make a difference. We haven't been absolutely walloped apart from Villa...but imo, the culmination of all those facts, and then you add the coach trying to find a way to overcome that, like all managers it won't always work, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

It's no coincidence that we've taken a downturn since January...you only have to look at what's happened to the playing staff.

I'm not surprised by the results or performances tbh.

I am surprised we are still within 4 points of a play off place.

Even more so.....we are 9 points higher than the teams below us.

It really is a league of two halves this season it seems.

I then look at a team like Derby and all that they have been building over the past few years and see them struggling and put the whole thing into perspective and realise we really aren't in that bad a position overall.

I think we will build next season again.

Don’t call me Percy

[Gazred]

13 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

And whose fault is that  ?

 

 

Oh i know what you were getting at with the first reply.

I'm not here to defend the recruitment process or strategy. It's been hit and miss for sure. Ultimately those in charge of recruitment will be held responsible but the likes of Woodrow, Leko, Kent and Diony are all capable of contributing something at this level and have to take some responsibility for that.

[BobBobSuperBob]

16 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

A bit pedantic though it is, purely about England- yeah totally. We were great and gave them one of their toughest 2 legs this season.

As a whole? Think Shakhtar and Napoli may have a view on that. Still, I guess the overarching point is that we were the first in this country this season to give them a proper tactical test, to show bravery too and led the way in that regard. Moreover, it shows our capabilities as you say.

Think Wolves May argue with that 

(Not taking away how brilliant we were at Etihad)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41647096

[Major Isewater]

44 minutes ago, spudski said:

I disagree Major...that one sentence by MA has been taken out of all context and masses of spin put on it.

You've fallen into the trap of listening to stuff on here, and read it so much you actually believe it.

If people post enough times, it becomes fact it seems.

If the situation to get people in during January was available, do you honestly believe we would turn it down?

You can see from our business, that we have our hinds tied imo. Budgets, contracts, agreements in place etc.

I had my information from the media , not from OTIB . 

What Ashton is quoted as saying was misguided at best .

No need for spin Spudski it was blatant that the club weren't going to push for promotion but would keep a steady hand on the tiller and see what came of it .

I wouldn't want our club to go bust again, of course , but nobody can deny the fact that since the beginning of 2018 the results have been , let's be kind , disappointing.

I cannot help but feel that the club missed a great opportunity and worse still by absolving everyone of the responsibility of pushing for promotion we've gone backwards.

All my opinion, of course.

 I believe the club, Mr Lansdown, play it too safe . Still it's his money and so I should shut my mouth and tow the line .

 

[CotswoldRed]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

Whilst there has been slumps with LJ...I don't think ours this season has anything to do with what LJ has been doing perse.

I look at the injuries we've had...many long term, illnesses...have said Patto looks like he has something wrong with him, and again last week he was away ill.

We've had so, so many injuries this season. So the squad effectively got smaller. Add to that players having to play more time to cover, then in turn getting tired and niggles and having to play through them.

That takes it's toll...it all adds up.

Then the players come back 'fit'....but not match fit, so have to play catch up.

That in turn makes things harder as a team...we struggle to get going, confidence gets hit...and it has a downward spiral, because the players will feel it and know it when playing on the pitch.

It's those fine margins that make a difference. We haven't been absolutely walloped apart from Villa...but imo, the culmination of all those facts, and then you add the coach trying to find a way to overcome that, like all managers it won't always work, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

It's no coincidence that we've taken a downturn since January...you only have to look at what's happened to the playing staff.

I'm not surprised by the results or performances tbh.

I am surprised we are still within 4 points of a play off place.

Even more so.....we are 9 points higher than the teams below us.

It really is a league of two halves this season it seems.

I then look at a team like Derby and all that they have been building over the past few years and see them struggling and put the whole thing into perspective and realise we really aren't in that bad a position overall.

I think we will build next season again.

Which current injuries are this week's excuse for hoofball? 

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, Gazred said:

Oh i know what you were getting at with the first reply.

I'm not here to defend the recruitment process or strategy. It's been hit and miss for sure. Ultimately those in charge of recruitment will be held responsible but the likes of Woodrow, Leko, Kent and Diony are all capable of contributing something at this level and have to take some responsibility for that.

Either not good enough,  or poor fits and thus should never have been recruited

Or they are good enough and not used , utilised or made the best use of

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Think Wolves May argue with that 

(Not taking away how brilliant we were at Etihad)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41647096

Excellent shout, had forgotten that!

First half in particularly, we were just superb though up there- over 2 legs in theory, we were but 2 last minute, last gasp goals (the second of which was just after we made it 2-2 and on the attack again) from extra time- and who knows where that may have led.

[Gazred]

Just now, BobBobSuperBob said:

Either not good enough,  or poor fits and thus should never have been recruited

Or they are good enough and not used , utilised or made the best use of

 

Or the players ticked the boxes to be recruited but didn't perform to the required standard when called upon?

So what you're saying is everything is MA/LJ fault then?

[CotswoldRed]

2 minutes ago, Gazred said:

Or the players ticked the boxes to be recruited but didn't perform to the required standard when called upon?

So what you're saying is everything is MA/LJ fault then?

I can't think of a single company that can legitimately blame its general staff for a downturn. 

The buck always stops with the management, even if they can't get their staff to perform. 

Accept responsibility for the poor performance of the company and deal with it with proper planning. 

[Gazred]

1 minute ago, CotswoldRed said:

I can't think of a single company that can legitimately blame its general staff for a downturn. 

The buck always stops with the management, even if they can't get their staff to perform. 

Accept responsibility for the poor performance of the company and deal with it with proper planning. 

We all know where the buck stops, that's just how society works, doesn't make it conclusive and/or correct.

Can't remember the last time i had to perform 90 mins of work in front of Sky TV and 20k customers. Not quite right to compare business with sports management in this case but i take your point.

Its clear to see that post Dec we have been piss poor. How that can all be attributed to LJ or to an extent MA is beyond me. The players have not performed, I'm sure there are contributing factors to that, rather than the tired old cliche that is blame the management and nobody else.