When can we discuss the 'Progress' argument again?

[Whale Eye Beef Hooked]

7 hours ago, Fuber said:

But is comparing us with Wolves and Leeds fair? One had an agent was a questionable albeit legal (per the FA) connection, and have had parachute payments recently (2012-2016), Leeds have much bigger gates so can take the losses to an extent due to greater turnover. We shouldn't be blowing this much money on unproven players such as Eliasson, Engvall, Hegeler, Diony, to name a few.

"LJ doesnt single out player" - I recall at least one time he shoved Magnússon under the bus so to speak, last season. Add to that the 'players he trusts' incident, which I'll note returned after Sunderland "I’ve got to pick a team that’s trust worthy...", after he blamed himself - well, how does that make sense? He still doesn't trust members of the squad? How is that promoting stability?

And I apologise for miss-interpreting your intended praise - can be a hard thing to come by on here.

I want LJ to succeed, we've seen he can get us playing great football - but these horrific runs he goes on... just what exactly is going on? - That, and the poor performances and lack of cohesion in the last 20 games, how can anyone not be frustrated? All in a league that is much weaker than it was last season with the falls of teams such as Barnsley, Reading, Sunderland, and Hull.

How is that promoting stability - Not having a go at you here Whale, but the portion who I've seen defend LJ. If this happened to any other manager besides Johnson, would they have been sacked by now? 

• Cotterill - 4 wins in his final 24 matches - Sacked 14th January 2016.
• O'Driscoll - 5 wins in his final 24 matches - Sacked 28th November 2013.
• McInnes - 4 wins in his final 24 matches - Sacked 12th January 2013.
• Millen - 9 wins in his final 24 matches - Sacked 3rd October 2011. (1 Win in 10 when sacked).

By Comparison:

• Johnson - 4 wins in his 29 matches between 25th October 2016 up to 28th February 2017.
• Johnson - 4 wins in his 25 matches from 30th December up until present. (2 in his last 11, 10 points matched)

So by those statistics, he should've been sacked twice now if we're using the parameters that Millen, McInnes, and Cotterill were sacked by. Our current situation is not sustainable, or stabilising for the club. If you apply our form from the last 22 games over the course of the season gives 41 points (Joint with Barnsley and Burton). Put that into the 2016/2017 table - 23rd, below Wigan.

If we were any other club or any other manager, then the latter would've definitely of been sacked by now, once is understandable, and I'm glad LJ recovered. But twice, with the position we were in? I don't think any club has done that sort of freefall that I can recall. Completely unacceptable.

I want to be optimistic. But it's difficult. If our performances were anywhere near what we showed against QPR I wouldn't be this aggrieved - but they haven't been, and the home displays against Sheff Utd, Hull, and Brentford, honestly, all the players and Johnson need to meet with a fan face to face and ask themselves whether they gave enough.

 

 

I do get annoyed at the transfer comments from people,  you say we should have wasted money on engvill, elleson, Hegeler and Diony,  hindsight is a great thing.   Engvill and elleson looked good on the scout reports and clips but you never know if they are going to adjust to the city, club, championship and they haven’t    Diony again was a risk and it didn’t work,  but the same risk was applied to kodja and Diedhiou and luckily they worked out so 2 out of 3 from France worked and diony was only on loan so not a massive expenditure.   All other teams make mistakes,,, look at Cardiff.  They signed madine from Bolton for 5 million and was shocking

you could say arsenal have a similar transfer policy and it causes massive unrest with the fans    For every thierry henry you get , you also get Francis jeffers and Christopher wreh or gervinho 

regarding managers, the difference with Johnson and the rest is that Johnson is signing off the same hymsheet as the owner which obviously suits the owner.  Cotts wanted to spend big but that went against SL’s philosophy of how he wants to run the club

it sounds to me that SL is pleased that we have progressed year on year but is disappointed with the fall from 2nd.  It will be interesting to see what happens if we are struggling at Christmas 

[BobBobSuperBob]

31 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

We all know my thoughts on this, however, to build on this season we MUST keep the core squad together.  We need to keep Bobby, Flint, and Byran.  Is that going to happen? Probably not. 
From the SL interview, he seems to be suggesting that one if not all of these players are going to leave.  If that is the case, what is the point?  You can't just sell your best players and expect to replace them with better ones for less money! 

Just ask Southampton how its working out for them.

 

Strange

Less than two weeks ago you were banging the drum very loudly about our progress

And abusing those who didn’t fall into line

 

 

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

10 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

I don't understand what you're getting at, apart from having another pop at me for no apparent reason.  

We have progressed on previous seasons (so my opinion hasn't changed), however, we won't continue to progress if we sell our best players.  So my thoughts haven't changed.  

Well done for waking up to the fact that many on here have been discussing for weeks regarding the potential loss of key players and our recruitment and hence concerns regarding any perceived progress

You ridiculed any such thoughts  ,maintaining louder and louder how we’d progressed , and when asked by several posters to look forward

said 

‘Anything else involving our future hopes is just speculation and fantasy‘

 

 

 

Changed your mind eh ?

 

[1960maaan]

47 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

to build on this season we MUST keep the core squad together.

While I agree with the sentiment there are a couple of things. 
1) It is against club policy in a way, we need to sell to generate funds so as you say we won't keep everyone.
2) If we kept all the players and the head coach would we be stuck in this seemingly end less boom/bust form ? 

I , like our Manager, don't know the answers.

[Fuber]

4 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

We all know my thoughts on this, however, to build on this season we MUST keep the core squad together.  We need to keep Bobby, Flint, and Byran.  Is that going to happen? Probably not. 
From the SL interview, he seems to be suggesting that one if not all of these players are going to leave.  If that is the case, what is the point?  You can't just sell your best players and expect to replace them with better ones for less money! 

Just ask Southampton how its working out for them.

 

The issue is Badger, it is possible.

Cotts did it with the Baldock money.

You can also argue LJ did it with the Kodjia money (to an extent) with Diedhiou and Baker.

[Whale Eye Beef Hooked]

1 hour ago, Badger08 said:

We all know my thoughts on this, however, to build on this season we MUST keep the core squad together.  We need to keep Bobby, Flint, and Byran.  Is that going to happen? Probably not. 
From the SL interview, he seems to be suggesting that one if not all of these players are going to leave.  If that is the case, what is the point?  You can't just sell your best players and expect to replace them with better ones for less money! 

Just ask Southampton how its working out for them.

 

If we refuse to sell Reid and Bryan then can leave for nothing and are they going to play at the same level if we take away their chance of playing at a higher level    The player has all the power 

[Port Said Red]

On 06/05/2018 at 15:33, Cheesleysmate said:

Yeah but we beat Man Utd and played Champagne football at the wrong end of the season remember. We finished above last season, so overall since 1982 we have made progress. Well done Lee.

Yes our season has been inconsistent, but so has pretty much everyone elses, except Wolves who have been consistently top. Teams like Fulham, Middlesborough, etc were well behind us at the start of the season. I don't think you can be advocating that our season should go the same way as theirs as I am pretty sure if we had been in any of their positions at Xmas, the calls for his head would have been loud and vocal to the extent that he wouldn't be here to see through an improvement. 
The cup run is/was important for the club as a whole because it put us on the map, it gave individuals confidence and it showed we can compete when the players are at their peak. It's only the third time we have reached the semi final stages of either of the 2 major cup competitions, it was hugely exciting and something fans have been crying out for many years, so I think to decry it is cheap and shabby to be honest. 

[Redrascal2]

On 06/05/2018 at 13:42, LondonBristolian said:

I’d still maintain that, if LJ left today, I’d see him as having done a decent job and that the club are in better shape than when he arrived.

But recent months have been dire and there is no evidence he can turn it around. I think if he stays next season it will undo the progress we have actually made.

That process started after the cup run ended. Or how else can you explain the second half of the season. We have been going backwards for months.

[LondonBristolian]

57 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Yes our season has been inconsistent, but so has pretty much everyone elses, except Wolves who have been consistently top. Teams like Fulham, Middlesborough, etc were well behind us at the start of the season. I don't think you can be advocating that our season should go the same way as theirs as I am pretty sure if we had been in any of their positions at Xmas, the calls for his head would have been loud and vocal to the extent that he wouldn't be here to see through an improvement. 
The cup run is/was important for the club as a whole because it put us on the map, it gave individuals confidence and it showed we can compete when the players are at their peak. It's only the third time we have reached the semi final stages of either of the 2 major cup competitions, it was hugely exciting and something fans have been crying out for many years, so I think to decry it is cheap and shabby to be honest. 

A few weeks ago I'd have agreed but we've got to be honest. Poor form over half of a season is not inconsistency. It is simply poor form, and consistently so.

The cup run was amazing, as was the football we played in the first half of the season but we have put in a string of poor results that, increasingly in recent weeks, have been backed up by poor performances to boot. Football is a harsh, ruthless and unforgiving sport and, for me, four months of poor football has to be seen for what it is. I'm genuinely grateful for what LJ has done but, unless there is a clear and coherent plan to turn it around over the summer, then enough has to be enough.

[Whale Eye Beef Hooked]

5 hours ago, Badger08 said:

This is true.  However, we could offer new contracts?  We don't know 100% that teams in the Prem are looking at any of them. 

Agreed though, the players hold the cards, but I can't see them doing a "Maynard".

We can't stop them going, but what I'm saying is, lets not actively market them out.  If someone at a higher level comes in, then their is nothing we can do I guess. 

I think all of the management team have come out saying contracts are on the table but to be fair if we offer 15k and Burnley want joe they will pay double that and we couldn’t compete.  He could go to Burnley have a storming 6 months and then England and a top 6 club could come calling.  I wouldn’t blame him if he went 

[Gert Mare]

6 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

Yes our season has been inconsistent, but so has pretty much everyone elses, except Wolves who have been consistently top. Teams like Fulham, Middlesborough, etc were well behind us at the start of the season. I don't think you can be advocating that our season should go the same way as theirs as I am pretty sure if we had been in any of their positions at Xmas, the calls for his head would have been loud and vocal to the extent that he wouldn't be here to see through an improvement. 
The cup run is/was important for the club as a whole because it put us on the map, it gave individuals confidence and it showed we can compete when the players are at their peak. It's only the third time we have reached the semi final stages of either of the 2 major cup competitions, it was hugely exciting and something fans have been crying out for many years, so I think to decry it is cheap and shabby to be honest. 

We were the only team in top 6 to capitulate. At Christmas we were closer to Wolves in terms of points, and after Sunday we were closer to Sunderland in terms of points. We beat as many Premier League teams before January 2018 as we beat Championship teams since January 2018.

We absolutely fell apart. It was a truly awful 2nd half to the season and currently we are going backwards fast, plus we are set to lose our better players in the summer.

So, it’s not a cheap and shabby remark, it’s the reality of the current situation to be honest.

[Fuber]

10 minutes ago, Cheesleysmate said:

We were the only team in top 6 to capitulate. At Christmas we were closer to Wolves in terms of points, and after Sunday we were closer to Sunderland in terms of points. We beat as many Premier League teams before January 2018 as we beat Championship teams since January 2018.

We absolutely fell apart. It was a truly awful 2nd half to the season and currently we are going backwards fast, plus we are set to lose our better players in the summer.

So, it’s not a cheap and shabby remark, it’s the reality of the current situation to be honest.

This is the most worrying thing for me. We're on a trip down Ben Nevis at the moment, unable to stop, with our better players who are now worth more and more importantly didn't cost us anything bar academy expenditure and are more importantly, leaving. Sell our best players - with our recruitment record in the last two years - and we'll be in absolute free fall having jumped off Everest.

Then you look at our 'one for the future' transfers since LJ came in and their starting appearances. Brownhill, Engvall, Eliasson, Walsh, Hinds, Bakinson, Taylor Moore, McCoulsky. Who have played a combined 72 times. The only one of those with starting appearances for us than Lloyd Kelly? Brownhill with 72 apps, who was free. Joint 3rd (including Kelly)? Eliasson and Walsh. The expenditure for those players outside of Brownhill, McCoulsky and Kelly with their rumoured fees?

• Engvall £1.5m (2 starting apps), Eliasson £1.8m (3 starting apps), Walsh £1.0m (2 starting apps), Hinds £300k (1 starting app), Bakinson £500k (0 starting apps), Taylor Moore £1.6m (2 starting apps).

That's almost £7m across two season, that's provided 10 appearances. That's 700k per appearance. Enough money to Sign Baker, Smith, Pack, Kodjia, and Flint all over again.

"They have potential, they'll develop". Not unless they get games at a standard competitive to their skill level - no, they won't. Moore's regressed at Cheltenham and needs to sort hnimself out. Engvall's back in Sweden. Eliasson can't get games. Hinds and Bakinson have disappeared off the face of the earth. And Walsh, on current evidence can't play in a two man - no engine and too inexperienced probably needing a season in league 1.

We need signings for the first team, not prospects that we never see again. Do what got us the squad we have - sign players from the championship and lower divisions with scope to improve with the occasional foreign flair (amazing how much of that Cotts did). Smith, Pack, Brownhill, Flint, Baldock, Paterson, O'Dowda, Magnússon, Baker, Diedhiou, Kodjia, Maynard, Heaton.

Scout properly and don't sign so many for the future - that's what an academy is for. - What does it say to academy players when we're signing players, that are designated or we're planning for, to take their future oppurtunities? How does that encourage development? Our best players out on loan at the minute are Vyner and Morrell (would include McCoulsky but iirc that was a Tins signing, who is no longer in charge of signings for the academy) - academy players that have more of chance, in my opinion, of being in the squad than the likes of Eliasson, Engvall, Moore, Walsh, Hinds, and Bakinson at this moment in time.

I just don't see how this Manager - CEO - transfer cycle is supposed to work, but whats very clear is that it is not working and the scouting setup needs sacking; if they need sacking, then who is culpable? LJ? Ashton? The Board?

[Rich]

The sad thing about the situation at our club is, the manager has polarised opinion amongst the supporters to such an extent, that people are at each others throats on a regular basis. I have never experienced such animosity from one camp to another, it is poisonous and does no good for the team, as it appears to emanate through to the players. I hasten to add that, whenever I speak to any other supporters, I usually find the consensus is of a negative towards Lee Johnsons continued stewardship of the team. It is only on this site that there appears more support for him and that has waned considerably as the season has progressed.

As for progress, it appeared we were making good progress up to and including most of December and most people were happy. But since we joined this league three seasons ago, we have lost any momentum we had and, have been overtaken by two newly promoted sides who would appear on the surface of it to, have established themselves in this division ahead of us and, one we out performed to get here . We on the other hand, are talking about our best players leaving and having to rebuild the team and evolve again. It smacks of bad management from the top down.

[Fuber]

3 minutes ago, Rich said:

The sad thing about the situation at our club is, the manager has polarised opinion amongst the supporters to such an extent, that people are at each others throats on a regular basis. I have never experienced such animosity from one camp to another, it is poisonous and does no good for the team, as it appears to emanate through to the players. I hasten to add that, whenever I speak to any other supporters, I usually find the consensus is of a negative towards Lee Johnsons continued stewardship of the team. It is only on this site that there appears more support for him and that has waned considerably as the season has progressed.

As for progress, it appeared we were making good progress up to and including most of December and most people were happy. But since we joined this league three seasons ago, we have lost any momentum we had and, have been overtaken by two newly promoted sides who would appear on the surface of it to, have established themselves in this division ahead of us and, one we out performed to get here . We on the other hand, are talking about our best players leaving and having to rebuild the team and evolve again. It smacks of bad management from the top down.

Agree with all of that Rich. But I doubt fan opinion is the cause of the impact on player's loss of form.

The fans only have become this polarised, to the same degree as last season I'd argue, since Brentford. And we were already stuttering pretty badly by that point. Since QPR the perfomances have been pretty woeful bar a Sheff Wednesday team who were even worse.

[Rich]

2 minutes ago, Fuber said:

Agree with all of that Rich. But I doubt fan opinion is the cause of the impact on player's loss of form.

The fans only have become this polarised, to the same degree as last season I'd argue, since Brentford. And we were already stuttering pretty badly by that point. Since QPR the perfomances have been pretty woeful bar a Sheff Wednesday team who were even worse.

Not saying that is a reason for a loss of form. I'm saying that, since our loss of decent "results", due in my opinion, to changes in formation and personnel during December and January, the form then dipped. The players are now subject to some of the fans frustrations towards the manager and as a result have lost all form.

I believe most Johnson detractors were quite happy to be proved wrong up to our demise but, since that time, the rumblings have been getting louder, and downright despair and anger showing it's head, since that Brentford surrender. 

[Fuber]

1 minute ago, Rich said:

Not saying that is a reason for a loss of form. I'm saying that, since our loss of decent "results", due in my opinion, to changes in formation and personnel during December and January, the form then dipped. The players are now subject to some of the fans frustrations towards the manager and as a result have lost all form.

I believe most Johnson detractors were quite happy to be proved wrong up to our demise but, since that time, the rumblings have been getting louder, and downright despair and anger showing it's head, since that Brentford surrender. 

The issue is that the bad run, league wise has been clocking on since Wolves. The murmuring from myself inparticular relate more to our performances than our results - we've actually gotten lucky result wise IMO. Wednesday were shocking, Brum missed 3 sitters, and Ipswich had all but had McCarthy sacked by the time we played them. QPR is the last game I'd class us have having completely outplayed an opposition XI. And don't get me started on Hull, Sheff Utd, Sunderland, Brentford, et al.The only players I can think of that have come in from criticism from fans directly are Paterson, Wright, Kent, Diony, and Woodrow. Who will all admit they haven't been good enough and this isn't the first time they would have been critiqued.

• One LJ refuses to drop.
• The other has vanished after being booed off the pitch in a position he would've struggled to be match ready for.
• And the three aforementioned loan players simply haven't been good enough.

They're professionals, if they can't deal, then so what? We and they know they can do better.

This run going into the off-season, unlike what we did last season, is only going to build the doubt that's arisen about LJ as people keep thinking on it. Doubt will fester. And as we're seeing it's once again become an absolute b*tch-fest on here, unfortunately.

This summer promises to be almost as entertaining as Tomlin's penalty miss either way.

 

 

[Rich]

23 minutes ago, Fuber said:

The issue is that the bad run, league wise has been clocking on since Wolves. The murmuring from myself inparticular relate more to our performances than our results - we've actually gotten lucky result wise IMO. Wednesday were shocking, Brum missed 3 sitters, and Ipswich had all but had McCarthy sacked by the time we played them. QPR is the last game I'd class us have having completely outplayed an opposition XI. And don't get me started on Hull, Sheff Utd, Sunderland, Brentford, et al.The only players I can think of that have come in from criticism from fans directly are Paterson, Wright, Kent, Diony, and Woodrow. Who will all admit they haven't been good enough and this isn't the first time they would have been critiqued.

• One LJ refuses to drop.
• The other has vanished after being booed off the pitch in a position he would've struggled to be match ready for.
• And the three aforementioned loan players simply haven't been good enough.

They're professionals, if they can't deal, then so what? We and they know they can do better.

This run going into the off-season, unlike what we did last season, is only going to build the doubt that's arisen about LJ as people keep thinking on it. Doubt will fester. And as we're seeing it's once again become an absolute b*tch-fest on here, unfortunately.

This summer promises to be almost as entertaining as Tomlin's penalty miss either way.

 

 

Agree entirely.