South American football is spectacular

[BobBobSuperBob]

At least the Colombians didn’t get this bad - a shocking watch for anyone young whose never seen it

 

[Lew-T]

2 hours ago, EmissionImpossible said:

Sorry, but that’s a huge generalisation.

Don’t take it seriously..

[steveybadger]

10 hours ago, Robbored said:

It's in  in the Latino psyche. They regard as cheating the referee as a skilled act. 

When Owen won a very dodgy penalty against Argentina and Beckham scored to win the match. The next day all the local papers described Owen in glowing terms as 'el  pirato'. - the pirate who robbed them.

They, even now can't understand why we still complain about the 'hand of God'.........jeez......it's a different world.

The Argentinians have a word for it which roughly translates as 'street cunning'.

[handsofclay]

When you consider Beckham was sent off at the same stage in 98 v Argentina for a fairly light back flick of his foot on Simone I am amazed the Columbian defender just received a yellow for his deliberate and vicious use of his head, especially as we now have VAR!

[chipdawg]

In the middle part of the game the Colombians weren't really 'cheating', they'd just straight up lost their heads. They were incredibly lucky to finish that game with 11 men. I'm fairly accepting of the 'gamesmanship' that goes along with the modern game (even if I don't like it), but that was something else

[grifty]

9 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

I’ll mention it again because everyone seems to have ignored it, Harry Maguire cheated 100% tonight, trying to win a penalty with a dive.

If we’re going to slag off other countries for cheating, then we have to accept responsibility when we do it.

You must be able to see the difference between Maguire diving and then jumping up telling the ref that it was not a pen and say Neymar body popping on the floor, crying and screaming when someone trod on his foot or windmilling backwards when someone’s hand brushed his chest?

Both dives, yes but there are massive differences!

[Spike]

11 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

If ever there was evidence to show VAR will kill football tonight was it. 5 minutes just to take a free kick. Ref should have given them 10 seconds to retreat else sent the lot off.

If the future of football is generalised thickos playing substandard charades you can stick it.

See that's not a VAR issue, that's a refereeing issue and if anything is letting VAR down it's the referees. I can understand it to a degree as it's new and referees are now trying to deal with players on the pitch as well as listen to information off of it but for me VAR would be exactly what it needs to be if referees set a president with players running up to them to complain. I'd like to see the referees just say flat out "captains can speak to me if there is a complaint but any other player who approaches me and refuses to leave when told to will be booked". Actually, come to think about it that should be a new rule, if you're not the captain of your team and the referee tells you to back away and you refuse it's a yellow card. With VAR being in use people are focusing hard on that and missing that a lot of the actual issues aren't new and were happening in previous World Cups too, players crowding the ref is one of the main ones and it really does need to be dealt with because if a referee doesn't book players for not listening then you get situations like the Kane penalty yesterday where players just won;t back off and allow the game to restart. 
It's not VAR that is the issue, it's the referees, still.

[Robbored]

39 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

The Argentinians have a word for it which roughly translates as 'street cunning'.

Translated into 'cheating bastards'.....

[MarcusX]

11 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

Harry Maguire did a decent impression of one tonight!!!

If that was a Colombian with that dive to try and win a penalty, we would have all been calling him a cheat!

edit, Bar Bs3 obviously didn’t see it!

Behave, he expected contact that didn’t come. Bit silly? Maybe but Maguire got straight up and waved to the ref to indicate it wasn’t a foul.

[MarcusX]

10 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

I’ll mention it again because everyone seems to have ignored it, Harry Maguire cheated 100% tonight, trying to win a penalty with a dive.

If we’re going to slag off other countries for cheating, then we have to accept responsibility when we do it.

You missed him signal to the ref it wasn’t a foul then? 

[glynriley]

Guillermo still on one about his beloved Spain going out then...

[MarcusX]

4 hours ago, Robin Goch said:

Exactly this. For the final 20 of the 90 minutes our players were just as bad but people are happy to turn a blind eye to it. Maguire and Lingard being the main culprits. All respect I once had for Maguire has gone.

Lingard? That wasn’t a dive it just wasn’t a penalty.

[Undy English]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Their approach surprised me.

Never had them (Colombia) down as that cynical a side usually. That niggly.

Uruguay? Sure. Argentina? Certainly (as well as being capable of great football too in both cases)- in South America itself especially these 2 countries, there is a big clash, a struggle for supremacy coaching wise between the beautiful and the cynical.

Colombia- not necessarily- so their approach did surprise me a bit.

Have a very good Colombian friend who I always bantered about the 'cheating South Americans' which she always dismissed.

After tonight, finally, even the Latinos are admitting their team is dirty.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, Undy English said:

Have a very good Colombian friend who I always bantered about the 'cheating South Americans' which she always dismissed.

After tonight, finally, even the Latinos are admitting their team is dirty.

Still think it's a mixed bag in South America, clash of cultures in specific countries particularly between flair and cheating- maybe my view is a bit outdated though.

Having said that, there's no doubt it's seen- diving, niggly play- very differently over there to here.

[Portland Bill]

53 minutes ago, grifty said:

You must be able to see the difference between Maguire diving and then jumping up telling the ref that it was not a pen and say Neymar body popping on the floor, crying and screaming when someone trod on his foot or windmilling backwards when someone’s hand brushed his chest?

Both dives, yes but there are massive differences!

Yes, I can see the difference, but both are cheating. 

Its a win at all costs sport now, no one can deny it. 

The game has changed so much over the last 20-30 years, every professional footballer will cheat if it gains him an advantage. 

[marcofisher]

Utter nonsense from the people on this thread criticising Maguire for what they perceive as diving. Clearly Maguire was expecting contact when he pushed the ball past the man and it was then impossible to stay upright. He straight away jumped up and motioned to the referee that there was no contact and that he had fallen over. He couldn't have acted more professionally and truthfully. The more pathetic actions were then made by the Colombians trying to get him yellow carded.

How Falcao was still on the pitch after his continuous ridiculous harassment of the referee is beyond me. The ref was clearly overwhelmed by the occasion and lost control. 

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

It's not VAR that is the issue, it's the referees, still.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

VAR has signally encouraged players to play act, they now have an option to deliberately feign bring wronged without limit at little risk of punishment and every chance of being given a decision they don't deserve.

The frequency of players overtly clamouring to all the officials and TV cameras similarly shows a marked increase, it's almost as though they now perform with a mind as to watching themselves play rather than simply playing football.

Thirdly, the whole VAR set-up aids teams who wish to constantly disrupt and break-up play. Last night several fouls took many minutes simply to have the game restarted. There's no punishment for doing so.

Referees are not there to manage players conduct, simply to provide judgement against the laws of the game. If VAR wasn't there a large proportion of the 'events' we've seen recently wouldn't have materialised. At risk the odd decision is incorrect, well that's a price worth paying in my book. As sure as hell VAR has sought only to introduce more incorrect decision making into the game.

Worse case we should look to the NFL whereby only the coach may seek to call for a limited number of reviews  (two per game say) which does give an element of protection against catastrophic howlers but also needs careful managing at risk such reviews are unnecessarily wasted.

[havanatopia]

13 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

If ever there was evidence to show VAR will kill football tonight was it. 5 minutes just to take a free kick. Ref should have given them 10 seconds to retreat else sent the lot off.

If the future of football is generalised thickos playing substandard charades you can stick it.

Absolutely. Was watching with a few English in a bar and to a man we said the same thing. He should have booked every single one of them and if they stayed for afters brandished a red; that would soon have stopped the nonsense. I felt the ref was simply not up to the task last night given that VAR added the new dynamic but therein lies the issue you allude to; with VAR players, probably in general, will be more, not less, likely to complain to the ref. FIFA must give Ref's a new tool to counter that and it is an instant yellow if they confront the ref that close in a threatening fashion and he must brandish that weapon instantly.

I am sure they will look at this after the tournament and bring in new rules; they simply have to or it will be a fight fest every match and not just for a World Cup.

[chipdawg]

2 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Absolutely. Was watching with a few English in a bar and to a man we said the same thing. He should have booked every single one of them and if they stayed for afters brandished a red; that would soon have stopped the nonsense. I felt the ref was simply not up to the task last night given that VAR added the new dynamic but therein lies the issue you allude to; with VAR players, probably in general, will be more, not less, likely to complain to the ref. FIFA must give Ref's a new tool to counter that and it is an instant yellow if they confront the ref that close in a threatening fashion and he must brandish that weapon instantly.

I am sure they will look at this after the tournament and bring in new rules; they simply have to or it will be a fight fest every match and not just for a World Cup.

VAR isn't the problem, it's just that the rules around it have to be refined. I personally think that the only players who should be allowed to speak to a ref are captains and any player invited to do so. Anyone else gets told to go away and if they don't, they get a yellow. Perhaps each Captain gets 1 VAR request, if they make the request and are wrong, they lose it. If they're right, they keep it. Once it's gone, asking the ref to use VAR results in a yellow card. It'd be Carnage for a couple of weeks then the players would get it and it'll flow much better. I also think that VAR should only be applied to what the referee asks it be. If the ref asks to check a foul in the build up but there's an offside the linesman missed, tough shit

[Undy English]

3 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

Yes, I can see the difference, but both are cheating. 

Its a win at all costs sport now, no one can deny it. 

The game has changed so much over the last 20-30 years, every professional footballer will cheat if it gains him an advantage. 

Both cheating definitely, but there are degrees. Maguire going down after minimal contact as opposed to Colombian players digging up the penalty spot before Kane's spot kick are 2 very contrasting things.

[downendcity]

8 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

VAR isn't the problem, it's just that the rules around it have to be refined. I personally think that the only players who should be allowed to speak to a ref are captains and any player invited to do so. Anyone else gets told to go away and if they don't, they get a yellow. Perhaps each Captain gets 1 VAR request, if they make the request and are wrong, they lose it. If they're right, they keep it. Once it's gone, asking the ref to use VAR results in a yellow card. It'd be Carnage for a couple of weeks then the players would get it and it'll flow much better. I also think that VAR should only be applied to what the referee asks it be. If the ref asks to check a foul in the build up but there's an offside the linesman missed, tough shit

The biggest mistake has been that they have , in essence, been testing VAR in the biggest tournament in the world.

For many years it has been clear that the interpretation of the laws of the game vary hugely across the world. With VAR we now have the aded variable due to the interpretation not just of the match officials on the pitch, but those operating VAR.

The headbutt on Henderson is a good case in point. Why did the VAR team make the decision to award a yellow card, instead of alerting the referee to the incident, so he could review at the side of the pitch, in which case I think it much more likely he would then have given a red. Similarly, what were the VAR team doing in our first game when Kane was being manhandled to a level that would probably be an offence in WWF, yet they apparently did not notice it at all?

The use of technology was a no brainer as far as I was concerned, in order to eliminate the blinding mistakes we have seen all too often, but in a way what it has done in this tournament is highlight the inconsistencies even more.

I agree completely regarding the penalty incident. They need to lay down the law so that players understand that they cannot demand VAR for an incident they don't like. However, players will not accept this if they have no confidence in VAR being applied fairly across the board. Yellow and red cards need to be given in order to stop the Man United team possee haranguing the ref and especially when designed to put off the penalty taker.

They also need to start reviewing games after the event and punishing teams and players for play acting  and actions such as the penalty spot destruction.

What happened to the respect campaign?

 

 

 

[handsofclay]

8 hours ago, Spike said:

See that's not a VAR issue, that's a refereeing issue and if anything is letting VAR down it's the referees. I can understand it to a degree as it's new and referees are now trying to deal with players on the pitch as well as listen to information off of it but for me VAR would be exactly what it needs to be if referees set a president with players running up to them to complain. I'd like to see the referees just say flat out "captains can speak to me if there is a complaint but any other player who approaches me and refuses to leave when told to will be booked". Actually, come to think about it that should be a new rule, if you're not the captain of your team and the referee tells you to back away and you refuse it's a yellow card. With VAR being in use people are focusing hard on that and missing that a lot of the actual issues aren't new and were happening in previous World Cups too, players crowding the ref is one of the main ones and it really does need to be dealt with because if a referee doesn't book players for not listening then you get situations like the Kane penalty yesterday where players just won;t back off and allow the game to restart. 
It's not VAR that is the issue, it's the referees, still.

Yes, I've often advocated using captains far more than just to call the toss of a coin, choose ends or kick off and lift a trophy very occasionally, or not at all. Years ago I seen a game between  Mangotsfield and Clevedon where a Clevedon defender did a professional foul on a Mango striker heading towards goal. The ref awarded a free kick outside the area but didn't red card the defender. He didn't even yellow card the miscreant. The reason being there were two defenders near the striker when he was through on goal and the ref didn't know which one was the miscreant. Now, why can't the ref approach the captain of the side who should be penalized and say that unless the culprit owned up the captain of Clevedon had to pick a player to be dismissed as his side should be down to ten men.

This idea, and others, of involving captains in any dispute particularly over VAR would give them even more kudos within their club rather than being just a head or tails caller.

[Spike]

7 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

We'll have to agree to disagree.

VAR has signally encouraged players to play act, they now have an option to deliberately feign bring wronged without limit at little risk of punishment and every chance of being given a decision they don't deserve.

The frequency of players overtly clamouring to all the officials and TV cameras similarly shows a marked increase, it's almost as though they now perform with a mind as to watching themselves play rather than simply playing football.

Thirdly, the whole VAR set-up aids teams who wish to constantly disrupt and break-up play. Last night several fouls took many minutes simply to have the game restarted. There's no punishment for doing so.

Referees are not there to manage players conduct, simply to provide judgement against the laws of the game. If VAR wasn't there a large proportion of the 'events' we've seen recently wouldn't have materialised. At risk the odd decision is incorrect, well that's a price worth paying in my book. As sure as hell VAR has sought only to introduce more incorrect decision making into the game.

Worse case we should look to the NFL whereby only the coach may seek to call for a limited number of reviews  (two per game say) which does give an element of protection against catastrophic howlers but also needs careful managing at risk such reviews are unnecessarily wasted.

I think all the issues you've brought up were in the game before VAR, yes they may be slightly more drawn out but at least with the footage, the deception is far less effective. Also what do you mean by not there to manage players conduct? Players conduct is a part of the game hence there are rules to punish players with poor conduct. VAR is new, there will always be teething problems but one thing I'll say is of all the dives in this tournament very few are being given in game-changing situations.

[BCFC11]

Don’t understand all the hype around Neymar, clearly he’s a good player but very overrated imo, as for his antics/play acting it’s embarrassing and cringeworthy just watching it.

[BTRFTG]

46 minutes ago, Spike said:

Also what do you mean by not there to manage players conduct? Players conduct is a part of the game hence there are rules to punish players with poor conduct. 

There are no Laws in football where the officials prescribe how players must act, only Laws that proscribe what actions the official takes when said Laws are contravened. This isn't egg-chasing.

Players must obey the Laws, officials arbitrate and ensure they are complied with.

[marshy]

23 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

To be fair, you only have to sneeze next to him to do that.

Swiss TV has recorded the amount of time his 'rolls, somersaults!, other antics and interruptions to play' have amounted to so far. 13 mins. and 50 seconds in the four matches played including 5 mins. and 29 secs. 'stretched out on the turf' against Mexico. 

[MarcusX]

On 04/07/2018 at 11:43, marcofisher said:

Utter nonsense from the people on this thread criticising Maguire for what they perceive as diving. Clearly Maguire was expecting contact when he pushed the ball past the man and it was then impossible to stay upright. He straight away jumped up and motioned to the referee that there was no contact and that he had fallen over. He couldn't have acted more professionally and truthfully. The more pathetic actions were then made by the Colombians trying to get him yellow carded.

How Falcao was still on the pitch after his continuous ridiculous harassment of the referee is beyond me. The ref was clearly overwhelmed by the occasion and lost control. 

At least someone gets it 

[downendcity]

On 05/07/2018 at 09:45, marshy said:

Swiss TV has recorded the amount of time his 'rolls, somersaults!, other antics and interruptions to play' have amounted to so far. 13 mins. and 50 seconds in the four matches played including 5 mins. and 29 secs. 'stretched out on the turf' against Mexico. 

Neymar covered more ground with that roll than many players do in an entire match.

[WhistleHappy]

On ‎04‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 08:44, pongo88 said:

 

Yesterday was the 24th anniversary of the death of Andres Escobar, who was shot dead after his own goal was blamed for sending Colombia home at the 1994 World Cup. The players who missed penalties yesterday have already received death threats and told not to come home. Puts the “Johnson Out” posts on the forum into perspective 

No excuse for the Colombian cheating tactics, it is only a game ffs...

Jeez, anyone would think their lives depended on it..