Croatia v. England - Official Matchday Thread

[Cunnyfunt]

1 minute ago, One BCFC said:

And yet us English get branded as arrogant and deluded.. that'll go amiss by every other country that quote.

Classic. Sadly so true.

[Odysseus]

I feel the loosening grip of tabloids (run by private educated types who hate football) helped bring about a feeling of positivity. They tried to get to players like Sterling and were strongly told to **** off by the public. 

We’re still barely improved but I hope England finally becomes a team the whole country gets behind from now on. 

[Super]

 

[Show Me The Money!]

2 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Anyone out there who doesn't want Croatia to win the final?

Still a bit gutted that we're out.

My current feeling is that I don't care who wins

[Erithacus]

I don't know where I am with this England set-up. At the inception, I was starting to struggle to recognise some of the players or the teams they are with. History had poisoned my enthusiasm. Having begun the tournament with little expectation, it has been a really refreshing show by the team in getting thus far. The Waistcoat has led the nation with no shortage of realism, nobility and dignity - in marked contrast to his predecessors. The 'Golden Generation' nonsense was replaced with more down to earth assessments of the squad and some players have gone on to made a big name for themselves. Semi-finals are no disgrace, especially considering the earlier exits of high profile nations this time around. We played with a certain style and panache, even if sometimes it looked like everything was falling into our laps.

But having said all that, we were in the last four and therefore a step away from the Final. We  have not had many opportunities to get this far and only once taken one. The performance against Croatia showed what we are good at in the first half, and much that was bad thereafter. Yes, we had a young and relatively inexperienced team but the decline over the two hours was difficult to take. Old failings came back to haunt us and the deflation today is palpable. Again.

Were we a bad team that overachieved? Have we let ourselves down again? I don't know whether it's one of other, or a bit of both.

[bristolcitysweden]

You just stod there. Scared to death asking for a dance. Pathetic.

[Super]

2 minutes ago, bristolcitysweden said:

You just stod there. Scared to death asking for a dance. Pathetic.

Eh?

[bristolcitysweden]

What you need is a salary cap so that English talent can growth  

[TV Tom]

UI’m afraid Southgate’s team selection let us down, why did he feel the need to play the same 11 for the 5 games that really mattered? Ali obviously wasn’t fit, how he sees Young as a better option than Rose was baffling, some of the players looked exhausted last night ( Kane in particular and should of been substituted)

[TV Tom]

Ultimately it was the same old England, they let us down, Southgate’s answer to everything was to bring Dier on, it will be back to normal in 2 years with the usual exaggerated expectancies and media hype

[downendcity]

46 minutes ago, harrys said:

Ultimately it was the same old England, they let us down, Southgate’s answer to everything was to bring Dier on, it will be back to normal in 2 years with the usual exaggerated expectancies and media hype

I struggle to see how reaching a WC semi final has let us down. Falling one game short of the final to a more experienced and worldly wise Croatian team is no disgrace. although we are all disappointed after the first half performance.

We went in to the tournament expecting very little from a young and inexperienced squad and a young and relatively inexperienced manager - especially at this level. You can argue the group was not too taxing, but there were plenty of better teams that struggled, or failed to get out of their groups, and others who never even qualified for the finals at all. i would say that before the tournament a pretty common hope was that we would get to the last 16 and reaching the 1/4s would be a good achievement.

Now, with the benefit of hindsight all the old moaning and criticism seem to be coming out of the woodwork, with everyone knowing what Southgate should have done etc. etc.

After their failure a few years back Germany went back to the drawing board and focused on bringing a group of players through their junior ranks and they came to the fore in 2010 and 2016. Southgate worked with many of this squad a younger ages and we have what seems to be an excellent group coming through at under 20 and under 19. If we are prepared to give Southgate a long term mandate and to persevere with the right players, and not necessarily the biggest profile or biggest name players, then there is a great chance of building on what has been achieved in this world cup.

I am sure there are lessons to be learned ( wonder of Germany regret not taking Sane now?) from our performances and especially weaknesses and hopefully Southgate is someone who can learn and he has certainly got the goodwill of the nation behind him, so hopefully he can make the most of it. If this world cup is the benchmark and we can continue to improve then there has to be a great chance that we can go into the next world cup with realistic expectations of matching this years's achievement and hopefully improving upon it.

Under this manager I would say this could well be a realistic and not an over exaggerated expectation. 

 

 

[Cowshed]

14 hours ago, harrys said:

Ultimately it was the same old England, they let us down, Southgate’s answer to everything was to bring Dier on,

It could easily be argued that it was a very different England to the one that lost to Iceland.

When you are being over ran in midfield bringing on a holding midfielder is not the worst idea ever is it? 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

14 hours ago, harrys said:

Ultimately it was the same old England, they let us down, Southgate’s answer to everything was to bring Dier on, it will be back to normal in 2 years with the usual exaggerated expectancies and media hype

Dier came on becuase Henderson was injured, not as 'the answer to everything', which is a little silly.  Clearly Southgate didn't want to change the formation, which I understand, so of course he was likely to replace like for like.  My only criticism of the subs is that I'd have thrown Danny Welbeck on in injury time, just as a 'wild card'.

It was far from the same old England.  They played with a passion and commitment that I haven't seen in a long time, and they can be forgiven for freezing with the prize of the final in their grasp.  Croatia were vastly more experienced, and that showed.  England's legs let them down at the end, but there was no shortage of commitment there.

[cityboy]

What a wasted opportunity. It's very unlikely England will ever have a better chance to make the world cup final again.

[BobBobSuperBob]

55 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

It could easily be argued that it was a very different England to the one that lost to Iceland.

When you are being over ran in midfield bringing on a holding midfielder is not the worst idea ever is it? 

Agree but

Problem for me Cowshed (IMHO) was he allowed Henderson to be burnt out and then swapped one for another

If he wanted to keep the formation (I would have changed personally) Either Dier or Delph ( much earlier ) for Alli would have been my call or on a pure feel Replace Sterling With Delph (Delph to protect our Lhsand help Henderson,  Allli in behind Kane to  use his Spurs understanding )

[Gazred]

Some interesting statistical reading on Englands WC https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44808192

Badly missing a creator in a central area. Says it all when Maguire had more touches in the opposition box than any other England player. It's actually going to be quite remarkable that Kane could take the Golden Boot, such is the lack of chances created.

I think Southgate has done a great job with the resources he's had. This is solid foundation to build on but build on it they must.

 

 

[Super]

1 minute ago, Gazred said:

Some interesting statistical reading on Englands WC https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44808192

Badly missing a creator in a central area. Says it all when Maguire had more touches in the opposition box than any other England player. It's actually going to be quite remarkable that Kane could take the Golden Boot, such is the lack of chances created.

I think Southgate has done a great job with the resources he's had. This is solid foundation to build on but build on it they must.

 

 

It's a shame that Wilshere has had so many injuries as he is the one player who can do this.

[Gazred]

1 minute ago, Super said:

It's a shame that Wilshere has had so many injuries as he is the one player who can do this.

Yep, would be a perfect fit but form comes after fitness and we all know whats happened for him there. Shame but he's still got a chance with England, see how his season goes.

We set up to have a deep lying play maker but we don't have one....yet! The pace we have to get in behind or hit on the counter would be tailor made for a Pirlo type - any of the young ones coming through have that style about them?

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, Gazred said:

Yep, would be a perfect fit but form comes after fitness and we all know whats happened for him there. Shame but he's still got a chance with England, see how his season goes.

We set up to have a deep lying play maker but we don't have one....yet! The pace we have to get in behind or hit on the counter would be tailor made for a Pirlo type - any of the young ones coming through have that style about them?

Shelvey was the one

Has all the ability to do just that

Questionable attitude though and A big risk as to how he’d fitted into the squad though and Tbf to Southgate and the players & staff the spirit they fostered was possibly the biggest achievement and positive legacy to build on 

[Gazred]

1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Shelvey was the one

Has all the ability to do just that

Questionable attitude though and A big risk as to how he’d fitted into the squad though and Tbf to Southgate and the players & staff the spirit they fostered was possibly the biggest achievement and positive legacy to build on 

Another good shout. Always liked his ability to play the ball to feet or space over long range on the deck, doesn't just hoof it about. He's never matured though has he, that's the one thing that costs him an England place. Like Wilshire, the door remains open but it's down to the player to force the selection.

This WC was a good reminder of what team spirit and playing pegs in the right shaped holes can do for you.

[Drew Peacock]

1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

 Clearly Southgate didn't want to change the formation, which I understand, 

I don't understand it.  Why would you not change something that clearly wasn't working?

[AshtonPark]

1 minute ago, Drew Peacock said:

I don't understand it.  Why would you not change something that clearly wasn't working?

Sounds like a question for Johnson for half of last season

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

50 minutes ago, Drew Peacock said:

I don't understand it.  Why would you not change something that clearly wasn't working?

Well ultimately he did change it, in extra time, but I suppose the question is whether he should have done so earlier.   What could he have done?  Taken Walker off and gone to a flat back four with Delph coming in to midfield and Alli and Lingard going wider?  Might have worked I suppose, though the suspicion is that it could have led to Croatia scorring earlier than they did.

[Cowshed]

3 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Agree but

Problem for me Cowshed (IMHO) was he allowed Henderson to be burnt out and then swapped one for another

If he wanted to keep the formation (I would have changed personally) Either Dier or Delph ( much earlier ) for Alli would have been my call or on a pure feel Replace Sterling With Delph (Delph to protect our Lhsand help Henderson,  Allli in behind Kane to  use his Spurs understanding )

I was interested in why playing Dier is bad when so many players were struggling with the game/fatigue/injury. 

Playing one or two defensive midfielders does not have to be a negative when a team is stretched, losing shape or needing simply to receive, retain and release possession to break the other sides control and momentum.

As it it was in my armchair manager mode would have taken off Ali for Delph at half time, or close to it. Delph would have provided better cover and retained possession better ... But that could be extended to a half a team and the entire midfield. Kane knackered, Trippier struggling to carried off, Henderson leggy, Young leggy, Ali looking unfit/ Lingard = anonymous ... It all with hindsight looks like one game too far v more than half decent opposition. 

 

[Super]

4 hours ago, Gazred said:

Another good shout. Always liked his ability to play the ball to feet or space over long range on the deck, doesn't just hoof it about. He's never matured though has he, that's the one thing that costs him an England place. Like Wilshire, the door remains open but it's down to the player to force the selection.

This WC was a good reminder of what team spirit and playing pegs in the right shaped holes can do for you.

Also Lallana as well was a huge miss.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Not going to criticise Southgate or his selections, as he's done great and done the nation proud.

However, looking back...still do wonder how a 4-3-3 in the tournament with Henderson, Wilshere and say Lallana might have done. Or Henderson, Wilshere and Alli. My original preference last year was Dier, Wilshere and Lallana but Dier has not been so good lately...wary though I'd be about scrapping a formation we have clearly prospered in, still think 4-3-3 could give us that extra edge moving forward.

[Sir Geoff]

I know everyone has their own ideas and opinions and ultimately it was one mans decision but for 10 minutes before the goal it was crying out for a change and some fresh legs (particularly in midfield). Surely Dier should have come on alongside Henderson in place of either Alli or Lingard. Kane should have been swapped with Sterling who should have dropped a bit deeper. Kane holds the ball up better and Sterling could have been used to run past Kane onto any through balls. Also Sterling by playing a bit deeper would have been an extra body in the middle of the pitch. At that stage we were 1-0 up. If things later went pear shaped then he could have reverted by bringing Henderson off and putting Rashford on up front.

[havanatopia]

On 12/07/2018 at 15:47, The Batman said:

Saying all this though, we will never get a batter chance to make a World Cup final. The Dutch and Italians did not even qualify. Germany went out in the groups and then the best sides knocked each other out on the other side of the draw (bar Spain) - a strange but entertaining World Cup.

A lot of people have been saying this but I disagree because we have no idea what the future holds. When this team reaches its peak, with a few who were missing this time, you may very well find we get the hardest side of the draw and go on to win the final. It is very fine margins, preparation and mental and physical agility. We came up short but with such a young team nobody expected us to get this far; the luck we had with the draw made no difference; we ran out of steam and we were simply not quite good enough.

On 12/07/2018 at 16:05, The Batman said:

Modric was still sprinting at the end of the match and he'd ran at least 8 marathons this world cup alone.

Makes you wonder if the guy and the team are on enhancing substances.. Their energy levels were a good 10% better than ours right across the pitch. It was plain to see and toward the end it looked unreal. It may just have been our lead boots and their running on natural adrenalin.

On 12/07/2018 at 19:24, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Anyone out there who doesn't want Croatia to win the final?

Frankly, don't give a damn. Like the England players i am drained and will not find any energy left to watch the final. Our run to the semis has been terrific but exhausting @ BST+7.

[Garland-sweden]

England played well and dominatet the first half, Kane should have scored, 2-0 and then game over. The second half your team went afraid, allowed Croatia have ball. Misstakes and kind of panic in England second half. Dont think Croatia was so good, England allowed them to come in to the game. They were more organised and seemed more geled than England. The second half showed that England had a young team. By the way, Rose played in City, saw him two games, nothing special with him at that time. Now he is playing in England team, strange.

[marshy]

20 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

I know everyone has their own ideas and opinions and ultimately it was one mans decision but for 10 minutes before the goal it was crying out for a change and some fresh legs (particularly in midfield). Surely Dier should have come on alongside Henderson in place of either Alli or Lingard. Kane should have been swapped with Sterling who should have dropped a bit deeper. Kane holds the ball up better and Sterling could have been used to run past Kane onto any through balls. Also Sterling by playing a bit deeper would have been an extra body in the middle of the pitch. At that stage we were 1-0 up. If things later went pear shaped then he could have reverted by bringing Henderson off and putting Rashford on up front.

Not sure that Dier represents fresh legs. To me he looks half asleep most of the time as though he's on the wrong kind of medication. Delph for me instead, he played exceptionally well in the pre-tournament friendly.