Lee Johnson - Time To Go

[maxjak]

4 minutes ago, Baldyman said:

I rated LJ as a player so have no axe to grind . My feeling at the end of the season was that he should have been shown the door. He'd proven that 2 years in a row he struggled massively when faced with options and thus choices to make . It all went tits up last year once injured players returned. Sticking with him was , as my comment earlier alludes to , a statement from the club that they genuinely want survival and nothing more . We made the same mistake when losing to Hull and went down the season after . Bcfc does not share our ambition so he's going nowhere . 

With regard to just one or two matters, and at this moment  leaving aside all the other issues.............the fact that we improved by 6 places in the table, and his coaching and change of role for Bobby, that generated 10M for the club, for me, justifies his position as manager.  It should be looked at 10 to 15 games into the season to get a true perspective of how LJ stands.  Change, just for the sake of it would benefit no one IMHO.

 

 

leaving aside all the other

[bengalcub]

I hate the feeling of losing a manager and what the next appointment will bring , lj was brave to take the job and overall has done well , we have just sold most of our best players on the back of a semi final cup run , yes his league record it's not great but I feel we are pushing towards 'championship established club status ' .

[Londoner]

I would just like to express my disappointment of my 110 "rubbishes" have now disappeared.

[Baldyman]

1 hour ago, maxjak said:

With regard to just one or two matters, and at this moment  leaving aside all the other issues.............the fact that we improved by 6 places in the table, and his coaching and change of role for Bobby, that generated 10M for the club, for me, justifies his position as manager.  It should be looked at 10 to 15 games into the season to get a true perspective of how LJ stands.  Change, just for the sake of it would benefit no one IMHO.

 

 

leaving aside all the other

LJ himself admitted he had no option other than to play Bobby up front ! As per my thoughts , it was a decision made for him, not one of his choosing so we can hardly give him credit for making us£10m .  Neither Bobby, Flint or JB were his signings so can't give him credit for that either . On the other hand , Kent, Diony, Walsh , O'Neil and Duric were his signings

[Phileas Fogg]

6 minutes ago, Baldyman said:

LJ himself admitted he had no option other than to play Bobby up front ! As per my thoughts , it was a decision made for him, not one of his choosing so we can hardly give him credit for making us£10m .  Neither Bobby, Flint or JB were his signings so can't give him credit for that either . On the other hand , Kent, Diony, Walsh , O'Neil and Duric were his signings

Are you really trying to say that LJ gets no credit for the Reid transformation? Even for a near enough parody thread, that is quite ridiculous. 

Lots of people, myself included, would have happily sold Reid last summer for 750k. The 10m he went for is to LJ's credit.

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, Londoner said:

I would just like to express my disappointment of my 110 "rubbishes" have now disappeared.

110 posters share your disappointment!

 

[Sturny]

1 hour ago, Londoner said:

I would just like to express my disappointment of my 110 "rubbishes" have now disappeared.

Did you break the forum?

[downendcity]

2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Are you really trying to say that LJ gets no credit for the Reid transformation? Even for a near enough parody thread, that is quite ridiculous. 

Lots of people, myself included, would have happily sold Reid last summer for 750k. The 10m he went for is to LJ's credit.

While I can understand many fans' problem with LJ as head coach, one thing that I find consistently annoying is that so many of his detractors put the blame for anything that goes wrong on the playing side firmly at his door, yet are loath to give him any credit for anything positive or that goes well !

[Sturny]

3 minutes ago, downendcity said:

While I can understand many fans' problem with LJ as head coach, one thing that I find consistently annoying is that so many of his detractors put the blame for anything that goes wrong on the playing side firmly at his door, yet are loath to give him any credit for anything positive or that goes well !

People love a whinge, myself included. 

[CodeRed]

Ok, having read and posted on this thread my bottom line is....    

When I am enjoying my pre match beers would I be more confident of getting 3 points v Boro with LJ in charge or someone else .? And for me it's someone else ( obviously someone realistic)

I think tommorrow LJ will try to be "clever" and ignore the power and aggression of a Pulis side and send out a team to attempt to play around and through them with "tippy tappy- as it's known " football . We'll be done in both boxes (probably by Flint) and LJ will bemoan the players for not carrying out "the plan" .

Plus (and I dislike Pulis) will outwit LJ and claim the 3 points.

As an example do I think Steve Cotterill would prepare a side more pragmatically.......Yes I would.

 

[Swede]

. . . and get us into the Premier League or at least the play offs.

 

Get behind the Head Coach, he ain't going anywhere.

[Northern Red]

1 hour ago, downendcity said:

While I can understand many fans' problem with LJ as head coach, one thing that I find consistently annoying is that so many of his detractors put the blame for anything that goes wrong on the playing side firmly at his door, yet are loath to give him any credit for anything positive or that goes well !

Absolutely. And tbh I find it detracts from the criticisms that are valid, of which there are several. 

[Cowshed]

5 hours ago, Alessandro said:

All sounds plausible until you realise that you're facts are wrong.

Who started up front for at least the first 8/10 games of the season?

Bobby and Famara.

So i'm not sure where all this, Bobby only played because Famara was injured. Bobby had a full pre-season up top and was prepared ready to go into that shifted position.

Ultimately people will believe what they want. Chinese whispers, hunches, suspicions. LJ got lucky etc etc.

But it's the same people who criticise the club and/or manager at almost every opportunity, so we can take their "In the know" wink wink's with a pinch of salt.

As I say, even if hypothetically LJ's hand was somewhat forced into pushing someone else from the squad forward because of injuries, they still identified and developed Bobby for that role. Either way, it's documented publicly, by the manager and player, very early on in the season, what the plan was, even before he scored 20 goals. But people will still argue those facts.

Credit where credit is due is clearly too much for some.

And Bristol Citys best form of the season coincided with Famara not being in the side and Bobby Reid played further up the pitch.

If Bobby Reid was injured there was no like for like replacement. Djuric, Famara and later Diony were not replacements for Reid in that role. It is naive to think that Djuric, Famara or Diony could do the running required or possess the necessary mobility. That is how paper thin this approach was.

I did post enthusiastically in regards to Mr Johnson use of Bobby Reid, and hoped that the associated pressing style could bed advanced. I used the words progressive and modern to describe the football being played.

I also unfortunately suggested that Famara's return to the team could result in a down turn in form due to his affect on passing patterns and pressing. I also made a similar point about the affect of January's recruitment = It would not progress/support the football previously played because it was never a long term intent. I was not the only one, it was quite obvious.

Subsequent football moved further away from progressive and modern. Tactically inept hoofing was one of my description of the football when Mr Johnson went down the route of using combinations of Diony, Djuric, Famara at the expense of Reid and attempting to get the ball down and play consistently to feet.

If you read my post history you will see I have welcomed the recruitment of Webster, and been enthusiastic about the new Keeper ... This I hope is the start of a methodical long term game plan  (identity)rather than game plans and suck it and see approaches.

[Alessandro]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

And Bristol Citys best form of the season coincided with Famara not being in the side and Bobby Reid played further up the pitch.

If Bobby Reid was injured there was no like for like replacement. Djuric, Famara and later Diony were not replacements for Reid in that role. It is naive to think that Djuric, Famara or Diony could do the running required or possess the necessary mobility. That is how paper thin this approach was.

I did post enthusiastically in regards to Mr Johnson use of Bobby Reid, and hoped that the associated pressing style could bed advanced. I used the words progressive and modern to describe the football being played.

I also unfortunately suggested that Famara's return to the team could result in a down turn in form due to his affect on passing patterns and pressing. I also made a similar point about the affect of January's recruitment = It would not progress/support the football previously played because it was never a long term intent. I was not the only one, it was quite obvious.

Subsequent football moved further away from progressive and modern. Tactically inept hoofing was one of my description of the football when Mr Johnson went down the route of using combinations of Diony, Djuric, Famara at the expense of Reid and attempting to get the ball down and play consistently to feet.

If you read my post history you will see I have welcomed the recruitment of Webster, and been enthusiastic about the new Keeper ... This I hope is the start of a methodical long term game plan  (identity)rather than game plans and suck it and see approaches.

The question we were talking about was whether LJ deserves credit for turning Bobby into a forward from a midfielder.

What you seem to talking about is the style football we were able to play with him as a forward, but that wasn’t the question. Yes it’s entirely possible that not even the management foresaw his work rate and what his triggers could bring to the overall footballing ethos of the team - but that’s an entirely different debate.

The debate is whether LJ chose to turn Bobby into a forward or was forced to by injuries.

Eitherway, regarding what you were saying, let’s just consider that Bobby scored, I believe 14 goals with Famara in the team and 7 without and that the style of football Bobby will be playing at Cardiff will unlikely be modern or progressive.

I’d also argue that the teams down turn in results and style of football had taken a turn for the worse before Famara returned from injury - we were well into our January dip and many people were desperate for his “physical presence” to return. I remember that written a lot on OTIB in Jan. When he returned he was in the goals, 4 in 5 I think quite quickly.

[Alan Dicks]

As soon as we were safe last season was the time to get rid of Johnson, sadly we didn't therefore this season will be held a success if we finish as high as 15th, the lack of ambition at this club astounds me at times.

Lovely stadium, total lack of ambition on the playing side.

Will we break the cycle of 3 or 4 seasons in this league then relegation??

 

[Redstoke]

On 16/08/2018 at 12:35, BasSavage88 said:

Him and Ashton should have been sacked at the end of the season

Or the season before TBH.

[South-of-river]

16 minutes ago, Alan Dicks said:

As soon as we were safe last season was the time to get rid of Johnson, sadly we didn't therefore this season will be held a success if we finish as high as 15th, the lack of ambition at this club astounds me at times.

Lovely stadium, total lack of ambition on the playing side.

Will we break the cycle of 3 or 4 seasons in this league then relegation??

 

You’ve done it now! You’re not supposed to talk like that around here... 

[Donkeeebles]

On 16 August 2018 at 11:59, BCFCGav said:

Not all of them. Some consider the good he's done and realise there will be bad days.

Thanks for quoting the original post

Its nice to be reminded from time to time of why I've got him on ignore 

[Davefevs]

22 hours ago, Fuber said:

Same was said when we appointed Cotts. 

Just replace Ipswich with Forest.

Mick went stale at Ipswich after 5 years. Look at GJ for us.

Sometimes managers can do different things with different resources.  Sometimes fans get pre-conceived ideas about managers preferred styles of play because of the constraints of managing at a former club.  The Millwall side under McCarthy was not your typical long ball team, they had good players, albeit with an edge.  Keith Stephens was their Shaun Taylor, but they had technical defenders like Kenny Cunningham emerging.  They had Alex Rae in midfield who could do both.  John Goodman up front, who would have been a very good striker had it not been for injuries.  My dad was giving it ‘long ball football here we come” when Cotts was appointed.  But he wasn’t long ball at Cheltenham or Notts County.

21 hours ago, SX227 said:

The thing that scares me the most is the clubs lack of foresight, and lack of 'sticking to a set plan' - so much chopping and changing....

Partly, but you do need to flex the plan appropriately.

Is it LJ, SL or MA?

We all pretty much knew Flint, Bryan and Reid were off. A new keeper was very much on the cards.

Mags and Djuric not so much, but O'Neil, Steele,the loanees etc were all planned.

We were lucky Pack stayed.There was interest.

That will be key as the season progresses.  Hoping he keeps the armband too.

So:

Why do we leave it so late to sign a keeper?

We didn’t....we missed out on other targets....that’s life.  Other clubs compete.  We lost out on Henderson to Man Utd (not Sheffield Utd).  We didn’t want a loan, hence he resigned to Man Utd, and then went out on loan.  We bid over £3m for Zack Steffen....it got turned down, irrespective of work permit.  I suspect we were in for others too.  The GK position is highlighted because FF got injured.

Why, at LB do we have a very inexperienced (but talented) player, supported by possibly the shortest LB in the entire league - and height in the defence most definitely IS  an issue, no matter how skillful you are.

How important is height?  Ashley Cole, Roberto Carlos, Kenny Sansom?  You could argue that LK at 6’3” is too tall to be a LB!!!  I accept that short FBs can be exposed to the cross to the back stick, but let’s not predict Dasilva’s failings until we’ve actually seen him fail!

Where do we see Hunt playing? Presumably at RB which is his go - back up though? Pisano was at CB, BW is injured - so if he is the permanent RB,which I assume he is - that leaves a bloke with a long-term injury (BW) and a bloke coming back from one (EP) who couldn't press up before he ripped his hammy to shreads - yet he is back up now?

Hunt is a RB...and he will be our first choice RB too.  He is what I call a ‘proper RB’ in today’s game...a 60:40 RB, one who probably is slightly better going forward than defending....but that is the requirement for RBs these days and certainly for LJ.  Pisano, well documented, had a serious injury.  Imho was playing decently enough before injury.  He would be back-up to Hunt.  BW’s injury(s) during pre-season have not helped give LJ a bit of cover at RB should he be needed there. 

BW seems to be needed in a lot of places when fit!    Baker......well he doesn't want to be here does he.

Why do we not have the 'bossing' mid - which everyone knows we need, and leave KS on the bench?

It appears that LJ thinks MP/JB combo is our strongest....or possibly KS isn’t quite fit....I think he prefers MP/JB.

Why do we buy every winger in the universe and get rid of every tall forward except Fammy.

Wingers doesn’t necessitate playing high crosses.  Bob Taylor scored plenty from crosses along the deck from Gavin and Smith...Turner didn’t get many goals at all.  We do, however need our wingers (if played as wingers) to get beyond their backline.  That’s not easy if you play a left footer on the RW.

The same Fammy that can't play for 6 games (5 league) and let Djuric leave (we could have kept him for 6 weeks, de-registered him,and he could still have gone to Italy) or even Engvall......

Players leave for a myriad of reasons - in our case it would seem mostly to be crap signings being flogged off or sent back, and players who think BCFC will never go anywhere - but these were all known to be happening!

 

Can anyone, hand on heart, honestly say, that didn't know we needed a new:

Keeper

Dominant CM

I probably agree, but who are these players, hos much better are they than MP/KS/JB, how much do they cost, and do they want to come to BC?

Striker

We bought two....Weimann and Eisa, plus Watkins and Adelakun has\ve been eluded to by LJ to be able to play there when needed.

Back-up/starting CB plus a RB and another small forward?

We have BW/AW/NB as the first choice ‘perm two from three’.  We have Jens, Taylor Moore as Cover, plus Zack Vyner - our ‘nearly ready’ on loan, and further behind in development, Aden Baldwin and Harvey Smith.  Not sure what has happened to Plavotic? 

Out of that list of 6, we addressed 3. Webster, Hunt and AW.

 

I would hope a bloke on £300,000 a year (MA) and a 3 yr coach (LJ) would have noticed these glaring weaknesses - and acted.

 

As it stands, we still have a defence that leaks like a sieve, a midfield with the bite of guppy, and a forward line consisting of 2 blokes of Champ standard (Fam and AW). Baker looks like he wanted out and couldn't get a deal and is playing like a Zombie, Korey seems to be benched for no reason, and the Pato/O'Dowda/Brownhill/Elliason/Watkins/Walsh/Smith merry-go-round looks like it will drag on all year, as LJ still doesn't know his best midfield besides MP!

It's a shambles!

In your opinion.

Am I asking too much for the manager, who has set his stall out on playing fast, pressing football from the back, to actually go out and recruit the players needed before deadline day?

Perhaps he has....we are two games in. Perhaps you are right.  Perhaps there are financial constraints, that were remedied by selling Flint, Reid and Bryan....looks like we lost £18.4m last season1

The keeper was key as the extra sweeper. Not a bloke who has played 3 games in 3 years (or similar) - not his fault,seems a good pro, but hardly a Matt Ryan type.

And Mäenpää looks perfectly comfy on the ball.

Both CB's need to be 'cultured' - Webster looks good, and Hunt at RB seems to be a good fit. Baker and LB don't fill me with confidence. One due to attitude, the other inexperience.

How can we play from the back with Baker,Pisano or Wright? They couldn't do it before!

The only 2 we have who could have were Hegeler (seemingly permanently injured or out of favour) and Mags who we let go.

Personally a Kelly/Mags/Webster/Hunt  would be a very good option for 'playing out' with JH as a forward sweeper.....too late now.

But you’d probably moan we don’t win enough in the air.  The joys of Championship football, one-way won’t work all season.  Wolves had to mix itshen they needed to.

Midfield is still exactly the same, slow and VERY light on hard tackles and chasing back.

At times, yes, but you want ball-playing midfielders who can mix it....they are in the Prem (in the main).

Our wingers chop and change every match - they need to cut in and do the killer ball with a small front line, so we have loads of crosses.....

No doubt when Fam is back they will do the opposite!

Regardless - all our wingers need to track back more and defend harder.

It's hard to be a consistent winger when you are in and out of the side - Ryan Kent would not have helped any of our wingers self-confidence by being played every bloody game whilst being utter tripe!

 

The #10 position looks to be AW's - been a great signing - but we still have another 4 games without a genuine #9.

What do we do?

Taylor, Brownhill and Paterson, all mooted for that spot have a terrible scoring record - could we not have got a loanee in for #9? Fammy will miss a game or two like every other player - so we need a back-up!

Bobby Reid????

It seems that despite knowing what we needed to play LJ's way - we didn't recruit them.

They may have been targeted and didn't want to come - fair enough, but with the amazing scouting staff and tech assist (see posts by a guy who knows them) then surely there must have been 2 or 3 choices for each position?

It just seems to beggar belief, that with all the time at LJ's disposal, we ended up with Maapeena, Watkins, 2 untried lower-league players and a tiny loanee to move the club forward after the inevitable departure of 3 guys who scored 32 goals between them.

We aren’t a massively attractive fish in this pond....hard to accept isn’t it.

Hunt, Webster and AW seem great, and will certainly do a good job.

DaSilva maybe. The other 4 are a step back from what we have.

I couldn't believe LJ when he said we were 'done' with transfers in.

He has a budget.

He may well be getting the sharp end of the pointy stick, regarding budget. For me, LJ is too 'nice' for the situation I suspect he is in - which is why he probably is un-sackable for quite some time.He won't rock the boat.Or do a Darrell and moan on air.Or do anything SL doesn't tell him to. Just like MA.

We sure as hell aren't looking to get promoted anytime soon if the last 2 windows are any guide - just tread water. Rinse and repeat next year.

 

 

It's almost like it's just enough to keep us in the champ, pocket some ££ to make the books look better, and wait for some land to be re-zoned.

Good post, certainly lots of stuff up to debate....the reason we are on OTIB.  I agree with some points, not others.

 

 

 

 

 

20 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Are you able to prove that @Alessandro

If those aforementioned strikers hadn't been all injured in pre-season you actually think Reid would've started ahead of them? Laughable.

Agree, this was the root cause imho.

[Baldyman]

14 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Are you really trying to say that LJ gets no credit for the Reid transformation? Even for a near enough parody thread, that is quite ridiculous. 

Lots of people, myself included, would have happily sold Reid last summer for 750k. The 10m he went for is to LJ's credit.

LJ admitted it wasn’t his choice ! It was simply the only option. Do you expect to be congratulated for your ability to choose when presented with purely one option ? I’m not saying that LJ had no part in Bobby’s subsequent development. My point was about LJ’s inability to make the right choices when presented with many routes to go.  My feeling is that he would appear to be a good coach but the jury is well and truly out re his ability to manage and choose tactics. 

[Davefevs]

25 minutes ago, Baldyman said:

LJ admitted it wasn’t his choice ! It was simply the only option. Do you expect to be congratulated for your ability to choose when presented with purely one option ? I’m not saying that LJ had no part in Bobby’s subsequent development. My point was about LJ’s inability to make the right choices when presented with many routes to go.  My feeling is that he would appear to be a good coach but the jury is well and truly out re his ability to manage and choose tactics. 

That’s pretty much my overarching view.  Very good on the training ground, but lacks the experience / nous to manage the 90 minutes.  That may we’ll come in time.

[Phileas Fogg]

30 minutes ago, Baldyman said:

LJ admitted it wasn’t his choice ! It was simply the only option. Do you expect to be congratulated for your ability to choose when presented with purely one option ?

Doesn’t matter if it was by choice or design, he still did it. Could’ve loaned in a forward if he wanted, but chose to play Reid and it worked. Baffling to me that people try to discredit Johnson for that decision, it was a brave one and it paid off.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Doesn’t matter if it was by choice or design, he still did it. Could’ve loaned in a forward if he wanted, but chose to play Reid and it worked. Baffling to me that people try to discredit Johnson for that decision, it was a brave one and it paid off.

I don’t think everyone is trying to discredit LJ, just trying to say that LJ wasn’t sat there at the start of 17/18 pre-season thinking “I might try BR up front this season”.  It was more a case of injuries causing him to look at options, one of which was to look internally.  He may we’ll have said ‘Shit, Flint has the best finishing attributes, let’s stick him there and play longer’.  Luckily he found Bobby’s role for him.  In fact I would’ve thought he would’ve known Bobby was a striker from when he was a player, embarking on learning the coaching side, because he used to help take the various age groups, which Bobby would’ve been a kart of.

[marshy]

On ‎16‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 12:35, BasSavage88 said:

Him and Ashton should have been sacked at the end of the season

They should never have been appointed in the first place.

[Sturny]

4 minutes ago, marshy said:

They should never have been appointed in the first place.

Wasn’t it Ashton who found us a good chunk of those players that got us promoted from L1? He later left as his contact finished and we resigned him a couple of years ago? Could be wrong just what I thought happened.  

Hes found us some good players for sure 

[Fuber]

1 hour ago, Sturny said:

Wasn’t it Ashton who found us a good chunk of those players that got us promoted from L1? He later left as his contact finished and we resigned him a couple of years ago? Could be wrong just what I thought happened.  

Hes found us some good players for sure 

He may try taking credit.

But I believe Ashton was in charge (in the backroom staff anyway) during the mess that was McInnes' tenure in an advisory capacity.

During our promotion season 14/15 specifically, Ashton was at Oxford.

Talks a good game. But half the sh** he spouts about his time with us are massive over-exaggerations.

He's a good negotiator. But that's it. 

The man who gets the credit for our scouting working with Cotts up until March 2016 is Keith Burt.

[Phileas Fogg]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t think everyone is trying to discredit LJ, just trying to say that LJ wasn’t sat there at the start of 17/18 pre-season thinking “I might try BR up front this season”.  It was more a case of injuries causing him to look at options, one of which was to look internally.  He may we’ll have said ‘Shit, Flint has the best finishing attributes, let’s stick him there and play longer’.  Luckily he found Bobby’s role for him.  In fact I would’ve thought he would’ve known Bobby was a striker from when he was a player, embarking on learning the coaching side, because he used to help take the various age groups, which Bobby would’ve been a kart of.

Agree with that, that’s also my view too. I felt the poster I was replying to was trying to discredit LJ, but most people hold the view you’ve posted above.

I also think Reid will have a good season regardless where Cardiff finish - his workrate and energy should translate over. 

[The Constant Rabbit]

At 0 - 2 at half time with this team selection, I'd suggest he will be lucky to get another 5 - 10 games unless some funds to get players in are freed up.

If those players can actually play, of course.

My post above sums up pretty much all I just saw.

Very worrying times ahead.

[joe jordans teeth]

4 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Agree with that, that’s also my view too. I felt the poster I was replying to was trying to discredit LJ, but most people hold the view you’ve posted above.

I also think Reid will have a good season regardless where Cardiff finish - his workrate and energy should translate over. 

What do you call a good season,making maybe 10 starts and bench warming the rest

[shelts]

Bringing Taylor on sums it up for me