VILLA

[Tre Bong]

9 minutes ago, Alex_BCFC said:

Brentford are beating them again on a shoe string of a budget. You can compete if you buy wisely.

Cracking game!

[The hand of RO'D]

You know your hate for Villa is strong when you’d rather see them lose than the sags...only marginally mind you!

[chinapig]

2 minutes ago, Alex_BCFC said:

Don’t get me wrong - they should be punished if they’ve broken FFP. But just cos they can buy quality doesn’t mean we should all lie down - they can be beaten no doubt. 

Ipswich played with ten men for a long time and got a point at the weekend. So I’m hoping they stay down again and then things will just get tougher and tougher. 

I would love it if we beat them.

[Mr Popodopolous]

If somehow the stars aligned and Villa, QPR and Forest went down- wouldn't that be sweet.

[The hand of RO'D]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

If somehow the stars aligned and Villa, QPR and Forest went down- wouldn't that be sweet.

I have forest in my 4 league acca as champions so I hope not!

[chinapig]

1 minute ago, The hand of RO'D said:

You know your hate for Villa is strong when you’d rather see them lose than the sags...only marginally mind you!

I say, steady on old chap, there are limits! 

[sh1t_ref_again]

according to Sky commentary, Bolasie there watching the game and will be signing for them

 

[downendcity]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Out of reactions but  @downendcity 

What is also a joke, given the PL sky money and revenue, is that you are allowed to lose £35m in the PL but £13m in the Championship.

Seems a flawed system in that sense- for example if you broke even in 2 PL years you could lose £83m in Year 1 back in Championship (but then you'd have to cut back hugely- but if you go up, then problem solved)!

You're not wrong there @chinapig because the PL don't enforce things like transfer embargoes, even points deducted if FFP flouted in this division- it's even a battle to get the fines that are due I think if the club is up there.

 

This where the changes the EFL made to ffp should make a difference Mr P.

Previously I think that ffp was calculated annually and effectively in retrospect. This led to the problems to which you refer, as in the case of QPR, Leicester and Bournemouth, the breach only came to light after the end of the season in question and as each club had been promoted it was an uphill battle for the EFL to try and take action against what were by then premier league lcubs.

Now that ffp is calculated over a 3 year cycle, and the 3rd year's figures are provided through projected accounts provided during that third season, the EFL should know if a club has breached during the third season.

This means that any penalty then applied, is applied while they are still a championship club, including a points deduction that could then deprive the offending club of promotion or a play off position. As a matter of interest, I think I'm right in saying that the Premier League were consulted and endorsed the new financial rules.

As a result, if the EFL does levy a fine on a club, then there should be no battle to obtain the fine monies - if the offending club has been promoted, they can deny them that promotion and the premier league wu;d stand by that decision ( hopefully?) Similarly, if the penalty is deemed a pits deduction it can be applied before the end of the season and if that deprives the club promotion or a play off place then that should be that ( again hopefully)

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, downendcity said:

This where the changes the EFL made to ffp should make a difference Mr P.

Previously I think that ffp was calculated annually and effectively in retrospect. This led to the problems to which you refer, as in the case of QPR, Leicester and Bournemouth, the breach only came to light after the end of the season in question and as each club had been promoted it was an uphill battle for the EFL to try and take action against what were by then premier league lcubs.

Now that ffp is calculated over a 3 year cycle, and the 3rd year's figures are provided through projected accounts provided during that third season, the EFL should know if a club has breached during the third season.

This means that any penalty then applied, is applied while they are still a championship club, including a points deduction that could then deprive the offending club of promotion or a play off position. As a matter of interest, I think I'm right in saying that the Premier League were consulted and endorsed the new financial rules.

As a result, if the EFL does levy a fine on a club, then there should be no battle to obtain the fine monies - if the offending club has been promoted, they can deny them that promotion and the premier league wu;d stand by that decision ( hopefully?) Similarly, if the penalty is deemed a pits deduction it can be applied before the end of the season and if that deprives the club promotion or a play off place then that should be that ( again hopefully)

 

Thanks- wasn't aware of the PL involvement in the drafting of the new rules- that's great news.

The rest of that, that's spot on.

The one question mark for me...side goes up, but not a big enough breach to be denied promotion- therefore transfer embargo the punishment of choice. Will the PL likewise enforce it?

They really have to come down hard on clubs who are gratuitously flouting especially- it's a huge effort and sacrifice to comply with these rules for many clubs, including our own.

[JamesBCFC]

51 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Would sort of dispute QPR having got away with it.

Leicester and Bournemouth did because they got promotion under the old rules and the Premier League won't help the Football League enforce sanctions properly.

Villa and Forest but particularly Villa...this is a watershed moment for the EFL.

QPR got a slap on the wrist.

Compared to what it could/should have been, they have got away with it.

[sh1t_ref_again]

Problem is the PL have no interest in stopping the big clubs coming back up and in a way encourage it via the parachute payments which assist them coming back up.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Problem is the PL have no interest in stopping the big clubs coming back up and in a way encourage it via the parachute payments which assist them coming back up.

Nail on the head IMO.

Though I do perhaps see a need for parachute payments- but under strict condition. i.e. Each £1 you spend in the summer window after relegation- £1 gets docked from parachute payments. The current system of just spend on what you like is a farce.

Course, that would require a will to maintain some kind of decent competitive balance- which all comes back to what you said in that post...

[downendcity]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thanks- wasn't aware of the PL involvement in the drafting of the new rules- that's great news.

The rest of that, that's spot on.

The one question mark for me...side goes up, but not a big enough breach to be denied promotion- therefore transfer embargo the punishment of choice. Will the PL likewise enforce it?

They really have to come down hard on clubs who are gratuitously flouting especially- it's a huge effort and sacrifice to comply with these rules for many clubs, including our own.

I've wondered about the issue as to the level of breach.

Say a  club goes beyond the limits by, say £1/4m is that a big breach or only a small one? If that club secures promotion it could be argued that they achieved promotion by offering their star striker, for example, an extra £1/4m annual salary and that made the difference between him signing for them and not another rival. If every other club operated within the same financial limits and made their player, transfer and wage decisions accordingly, then why should that one club benefit ,at every other club's expense, because they chose to flout the rules?

I don;t think it's the degree of the breach, it's the amount by which said club benefited from the breach.

I'm not an expert on ffp, but think that under the latest set of rules the premier league would honour an embargo if it was awarded by the EFL prior to a club's promotion, but stand to be corrected if anyone knows better, 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, downendcity said:

I've wondered about the issue as to the level of breach.

Say a  club goes beyond the limits by, say £1/4m is that a big breach or only a small one? If that club secures promotion it could be argued that they achieved promotion by offering their star striker, for example, an extra £1/4m annual salary and that made the difference between him signing for them and not another rival. If every other club operated within the same financial limits and made their player, transfer and wage decisions accordingly, then why should that one club benefit ,at every other club's expense, because they chose to flout the rules?

I don;t think it's the degree of the breach, it's the amount by which said club benefited from the breach.

I'm not an expert on ffp, but think that under the latest set of rules the premier league would honour an embargo if it was awarded by the EFL prior to a club's promotion, but stand to be corrected if anyone knows better, 

That is good news then, if an embargo is honoured! Step in the right direction at least.

Yeah, by degree of amount vs breach...the problem is there's no hard and fast formula for punishment- when you say a breach of £1/4m do you mean per year or over the 3 years? Being as it is opver a 3 year period.

Balance can be hard to get right...but the EFL doing a very erratic job at present.

[chinapig]

1 minute ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Problem is the PL have no interest in stopping the big clubs coming back up and in a way encourage it via the parachute payments which assist them coming back up.

My bet is the PL are not best pleased when the likes of Huddersfield and Bournemouth get promoted as they have very little marketing value in places like China and the Middle East. The PL is first a commercial operation and second a football competition.

I'm sure the PL will be rooting for Villa, Forest and Leeds to go up this year.

[downendcity]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

That is good news then, if an embargo is honoured! Step in the right direction at least.

Yeah, by degree of amount vs breach...the problem is there's no hard and fast formula for punishment- when you say a breach of £1/4m do you mean per year or over the 3 years? Being as it is opver a 3 year period.

Balance can be hard to get right...but the EFL doing a very erratic job at present.

It would help if they were doing any sort of job at the moment!

[downendcity]

1 minute ago, chinapig said:

My bet is the PL are not best pleased when the likes of Huddersfield and Bournemouth get promoted as they have very little marketing value in places like China and the Middle East. The PL is first a commercial operation and second a football competition.

I'm sure the PL will be rooting for Villa, Forest and Leeds to go up this year.

The PL would be royally pi55ed off if all three were found to have breached ffp and the EFL applied points deduction keeping all three down and promoting instead Brentford, Bristol City and Millwall !

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, downendcity said:

The PL would be royally pi55ed off if all three were found to have breached ffp and the EFL applied points deduction keeping all three down and promoting instead Brentford, Bristol City and Millwall !

Leeds are absolutely fine with FFP tbh, 100%.

The other 2 though- and yeah thh hope it happens-I get what you're saying, the PL would be crying into their champagne!

[chinapig]

1 minute ago, downendcity said:

The PL would be royally pi55ed off if all three were found to have breached ffp and the EFL applied points deduction keeping all three down and promoting instead Brentford, Bristol City and Millwall !

We can but dream! 

[Davefevs]

Villa made a loss of £7m in 16/17....of which most of which is probably offsetable (e.g. Academy etc), so say zero loss in reality.  What did they lose last season and what will they lose this season.  £30m (ish) parachute in 17/18, and £20m this season gives them a little leeway if (big if) they’ve reduced wage bill.

Their problems over the summer were cash flow rather than FFP....but I still think they are gonna be running it close....and we may see how close when it comes to the Jan window. 

[Port Said Red]

I think I am going to save this thread somewhere for the next time someone says that LJ has spent "loads of money" in the last two years. People need to realise that the world has moved on and the money we are spending is the equivalent what Alan Dicks was spending in the 70's. 

[Portland Bill]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Would sort of dispute QPR having got away with it.

Leicester and Bournemouth did because they got promotion under the old rules and the Premier League won't help the Football League enforce sanctions properly.

Villa and Forest but particularly Villa...this is a watershed moment for the EFL.

Re QPR, yes they got fined 40 million, but we all know they earned a lot more than that for cheating their way to the Premier League. Yes, it’s comeback to bite them now, but that is down to club mismanagement more than anything else. 

Im pretty confident they only got the fine once they were relegated back to the Championship, and can also remember there was talk of them geoing straight to the National League from the Prem at the time. 

Leicester got fined £3.1 million, that is a pathetic amount for the amount they gained by cheating.

Bournemouth £4.75, another pathetic figure. 

This is why Villa won’t give a shit about ffp. 

PS, you say that Bournemouth got promotion “under the old rules” ? Strange that, because Bournemouth got promoted ‘after’ QPR. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Re QPR, yes they got fined 40 million, but we all know they earned a lot more than that for cheating their way to the Premier League. Yes, it’s comeback to bite them now, but that is down to club mismanagement more than anything else. 

Im pretty confident they only got the fine once they were relegated back to the Championship, and can also remember there was talk of them geoing straight to the National League from the Prem at the time. 

 

Ah but it should hamstring them in the future.

QPR turnover post parachute payments will be £17m. Paying fine over 10 years once debt to equity as part of it allowed for is 10% of turnover for the 9 seasons after this. That will hamstring them, either have to spend less on transfers, or cut wages further. 

That dick Simon Jordan though thought they should have continued fighting the embargo apparently- embargo will kick in for them in January.

Yeah that was true, they only got the fine down here- but a lot has changed since then. See the excellent posts by @downendcity which explain just how much has changed and why sanctions can be applied in-season.

[chinapig]

10 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I think I am going to save this thread somewhere for the next time someone says that LJ has spent "loads of money" in the last two years. People need to realise that the world has moved on and the money we are spending is the equivalent what Alan Dicks was spending in the 70's. 

Good parallel, yes. Though AD had an easier job because there wasn't the big discrepancy between the resources of the clubs concerned there is now. Even then it took him 9 years to build a promotion team, against the backdrop of regular demands for him to be sacked.

People also tend to focus on fees and fail to take wages into account. Villa's wage bill is huge compared to ours and is now increasing.

[Olé]

Bruce will probably want another six wingers now.

[chinapig]

3 minutes ago, Olé said:

Bruce will probably want another six wingers now.

I know, he's been struggling along on a tight budget for so long my heart bleeds for him. 

[Lordofthebling]

"A front line of Albert, Kodjia, Tammy and Bolasie..." why doesn't my girlfriend understand why I am shouting this so loudly after 4 cans of Stella? 

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I know, he's been struggling along on a tight budget for so long my heart bleeds for him. 

[Olé]

34 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I know, he's been struggling along on a tight budget for so long my heart bleeds for him. 

On a serious note, I know some people think that on balance I don't like Lee Johnson (and I hope I dealt with that in the "Johnson Supporters" thread on Sunday) but to further illustrate the point that I would always want him do well - how can you not want ANY young lower division coach to succeed, when the upper ranks of British football is a virtual closed shop financially, and far worse, a closed shop also among a group of entitled managers like Bruce.

You know the type - they demand the signings of copious amounts of higher division players, simply to get the team to that level (or maintain them there in other cases) somewhat invalidating their original credibility as the best person for the job . It's no coincidence these "jobs on reputation" old boys hop from one job to the next trying to maintain the illusion that only they can deliver success (provided the club is big enough and the spending likewise!)

So this is not just about FFP - this is about the Championship becoming a clone of the Premiership, where the inequalities mean it is hard to really gauge who is doing well on individual merit - certainly where managers are concerned. Ask me to make those sorts of comparisons and I would be far more generous to Lee Johnson than I sometimes come across, when compared to some of the absolute spoilt-rotten old bluffers this division is graced by!

[chinapig]

9 hours ago, Olé said:

On a serious note, I know some people think that on balance I don't like Lee Johnson (and I hope I dealt with that in the "Johnson Supporters" thread on Sunday) but to further illustrate the point that I would always want him do well - how can you not want ANY young lower division coach to succeed, when the upper ranks of British football is a virtual closed shop financially, and far worse, a closed shop also among a group of entitled managers like Bruce.

You know the type - they demand the signings of copious amounts of higher division players, simply to get the team to that level (or maintain them there in other cases) somewhat invalidating their original credibility as the best person for the job . It's no coincidence these "jobs on reputation" old boys hop from one job to the next trying to maintain the illusion that only they can deliver success (provided the club is big enough and the spending likewise!)

So this is not just about FFP - this is about the Championship becoming a clone of the Premiership, where the inequalities mean it is hard to really gauge who is doing well on individual merit - certainly where managers are concerned. Ask me to make those sorts of comparisons and I would be far more generous to Lee Johnson than I sometimes come across, when compared to some of the absolute spoilt-rotten old bluffers this division is graced by!

The point, or points, could not be better made.

That is all!