BS2 Red Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 8 hours ago, freezer said: I have a fear. That there will probably come a day when the whole 'Red Poppy' thing will be gone. Hopefully not in my lifetime, as I will continue to proudly wear the poppy/badge to remember and commemorate not only those who have served, suffered and fallen from all nationalities. But also to remember loved ones who are no longer with us. Because once it is accepted as not being 'PC' (like many other things) it will be unacceptable to wear such a symbol in public without facing critiscm. Then, we'll just have to find something else to question and eventually remove from society. For me, literally, it's a red line. I am also amazed at some of the views expressed. In the immortal words of Private James Frazer....."We're doomed" Your words are the exact opposite of what is actually happened. The conversation around the poppy is that people who don't wear it face pressure to wear it or receive unfair criticism/abuse. Nobody is talking about it being "not PC". What do you even mean by that? You might as well be ranting that health and safety are going to get rid of the poppy. The vast vast majority of people see the poppy as a symbol of remembrance for those that fell during war. The vast vast majority see wearing the poppy (whether red, white or purple) as a choice. The amount of people that think it is "un PC" or something "unacceptable" is vanishingly small and insignificant and their views are not ever going to grow into something that forces poppy wearers to stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trueredsupporter Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 10 hours ago, The Bard said: It's more than ironic that people slate footballers for not having a clue about the world, that when one of them does something that takes them into the spehere of politics,/ history / morality , they get slated. I don't agree with the bloke, but at least he's got some balls and a clear idea of who he is, where he's from. (you all can disagree with him, which is fine, but the reaction is far worse than anything he's done..) On the Stoke oatcake forum there is a massive thread questioning if Mcclean would respect sundays minutes silence. he didn't. what morals is he displaying there? anti British? racist? pro facist? or is he a cock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebristolred Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 The biggest frustration for me here is that it's now become a competition. It's almost as if people are trying to see who can mourn the most, most likely for the number of likes they get on social media. What was once a quiet minute of thought and remembrance for the brave ones who gave us our freedom, has now become a metaphorical who's got the biggest **** contest when it comes to mourning. "I turned my car into a poppy for Remembrance Day". "How poor, I turned my entire house into one, you should be ashamed". The problem here as others above have alluded to is that it devalues the true meaning and becomes a nonsense popularity parade. It's a true irony - where people are wrongly believing they're doing the right thing by becoming a giant f*cking poppy for a week prior to Remembrance Day, they are most likely contributing to it's long-term demise as a mark of respect. Put it this way. Do you think those who died would prefer a quiet but genuine moment of true introspection and remembrance from all, or do you think they'd prefer a select few going way over the top just to contribute to their need for likes to satisfy the narcissistic nature of their lives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 9 minutes ago, nebristolred said: The biggest frustration for me here is that it's now become a competition. It's almost as if people are trying to see who can mourn the most, most likely for the number of likes they get on social media. What was once a quiet minute of thought and remembrance for the brave ones who gave us our freedom, has now become a metaphorical who's got the biggest **** contest when it comes to mourning. "I turned my car into a poppy for Remembrance Day". "How poor, I turned my entire house into one, you should be ashamed". The problem here as others above have alluded to is that it devalues the true meaning and becomes a nonsense popularity parade. It's a true irony - where people are wrongly believing they're doing the right thing by becoming a giant f*cking poppy for a week prior to Remembrance Day, they are most likely contributing to it's long-term demise as a mark of respect. Put it this way. Do you think those who died would prefer a quiet but genuine moment of true introspection and remembrance from all, or do you think they'd prefer a select few going way over the top just to contribute to their need for likes to satisfy the narcissistic nature of their lives? You are describing McClean there. Using football for his politics and ego. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebristolred Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, Cowshed said: You are describing McClean there. Using football for his politics and ego. Oh give up. Just for his ego is it? Tell me. If you came from a small village where another country came and shot 30 of your people, killing half of them, would you then wear a symbol which commemorates the lives of those doing the shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 11 minutes ago, nebristolred said: Oh give up. Just for his ego is it? Tell me. If you came from a small village where another country came and shot 30 of your people, killing half of them, would you then wear a symbol which commemorates the lives of those doing the shooting? His choice whether he wears it, but should have gone about it better IMO. Matic seems to have handled it with a lot more maturity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebristolred Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: His choice whether he wears it, but should have gone about it better IMO. Matic seems to have handled it with a lot more maturity. Matic hasn't had anywhere near the amount of **** that McLean has had. How has he done it better? They both released statements, one was vilified and one was accepted. I'll agree McLean by all accounts is a bit of a knob but I can't criticise him for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, nebristolred said: Matic hasn't had anywhere near the amount of **** that McLean has had. How has he done it better? They both released statements, one was vilified and one was accepted. I'll agree McLean by all accounts is a bit of a knob but I can't criticise him for this. Had he done it as McLean had though, he would have been slated in the extreme. Not criticising him for his choice, more his inability to keep his head down- don't wear it, offer a brief explanation and just ignore the rest- football and politics don't traditionally mix well in the UK, which makes some of this ironic in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebristolred Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Had he done it as McLean had though, he would have been slated in the extreme. Not criticising him for his choice, more his inability to keep his head down- don't wear it, offer a brief explanation and just ignore the rest- football and politics don't traditionally mix well in the UK, which makes some of this ironic in fact. How so? How did he do it differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, nebristolred said: How so? How did he do it differently? Well one is getting a shitload of abuse and the other isn't- suggests the stances down the years have been different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Up The City! Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 21 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said: Only thing I have to add to this is that if wearing a poppy becomes an expectation, or is done out of duty or pressure from others, I think it completely devalues what it means to wear it. I think wearing a poppy should always be a personal statement of recognition and appreciation for those who died for our freedom. Being told to say thank you is always far less meaningful than choosing to do so. This is why I choose not to wear a Poppy. I used to wear it with pride but now to me the poppy signifies something different to what it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, Up The City! said: This is why I choose not to wear a Poppy. I used to wear it with pride but now to me the poppy signifies something different to what it should be. Yeah- the expectation to wear it will prove a bit of a turnoff IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebristolred Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Well one is getting a shitload of abuse and the other isn't- suggests the stances down the years have been different. But this is the exact point. They've done the same thing - they've both released statements but had different reactions. We can't just assume that one's been a **** just because he had a worse reaction. Matic hasn't had a tirade of tabloid abuse sent his way whereas McLean has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 James McLean was generally disliked before the poppy thing came out. It is now used as a stick to beat him with. Matic is generally well liked it seems so his statement created no fuss. I pay my respects in private and do my own thing and I give to the charity. Don't feel the need to wear a poppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 37 minutes ago, nebristolred said: But this is the exact point. They've done the same thing - they've both released statements but had different reactions. We can't just assume that one's been a **** just because he had a worse reaction. Matic hasn't had a tirade of tabloid abuse sent his way whereas McLean has. McLean was seemingly antagonistic about it though I'll have to look into the history. If you're antagonistic about it you will get a lot and I mean a lot of abuse and backlash. Matic was not, hence the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebristolred Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said: McLean was seemingly antagonistic about it though I'll have to look into the history. If you're antagonistic about it you will get a lot and I mean a lot of abuse and backlash. Matic was not, hence the difference. You can't keep saying this with no proof mate. And even if he was, with the way he's been treated, I'd be ****ing antagonistic to be honest. If I was him there is not a chance that I'd be wearing a poppy personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, nebristolred said: You can't keep saying this with no proof mate. And even if he was, with the way he's been treated, I'd be ****ing antagonistic to be honest. If I was him there is not a chance that I'd be wearing a poppy personally. Calling a proportion of his own fans 'Cavemen' was very ill-judged at best. It is his call whether to wear one or otherwise, but he should have left it at that. This McClean poppy thing has been going on 6, 7 years- again his choice in a democracy, but he seems to take the fight which is very stupid. Then it escalates inevitably- which it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebristolred Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 24 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Calling a proportion of his own fans 'Cavemen' was very ill-judged at best. It is his call whether to wear one or otherwise, but he should have left it at that. This McClean poppy thing has been going on 6, 7 years- again his choice in a democracy, but he seems to take the fight which is very stupid. Then it escalates inevitably- which it has. But that example is only from this year, i.e. after the years of abuse. You'll have to tell me where he acted inappropriately prior to the abuse? It's only been going on for 6-7 years because of the tabloids and the idiots that believe them. And you know what, anyone who gets genuinely angry and throws crap at him for making that choice is a caveman in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undy English Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 2 hours ago, nebristolred said: Matic hasn't had anywhere near the amount of **** that McLean has had. How has he done it better? They both released statements, one was vilified and one was accepted. I'll agree McLean by all accounts is a bit of a knob but I can't criticise him for this. Matic hasn't turned his back on the national anthem or publicly called the poppy blood stained. He's maintained a respectful silence, exception being his one press release explaining his reasons for not wearing one, without the use of controversial statements or language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 14 minutes ago, Undy English said: Matic hasn't turned his back on the national anthem or publicly called the poppy blood stained. He's maintained a respectful silence, exception being his one press release explaining his reasons for not wearing one, without the use of controversial statements or language. Exactly the point I was trying to make- except you put it better. That said, McLean has received death threats in past over it which is out of order- and no side comes out of it looking fantastic and virtuous (IMO), but he just needs to keep his head down- definitely needed to keep it down. Hold the views in private by all means, but he should have left them at the door apart from the original statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebristolred Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 15 minutes ago, Undy English said: Matic hasn't turned his back on the national anthem or publicly called the poppy blood stained. He's maintained a respectful silence, exception being his one press release explaining his reasons for not wearing one, without the use of controversial statements or language. The poppy IS blood stained. How can you dispute that? British soldiers killed people from his hometown!!! That's literally his problem with it, and I agree with him. He's even said himself that if it was just for WW1 and WW2 victims he'd wear it every day. Turning his back on the national anthem is probably for similar reasons but I agree that is a little disrespectful. How difficult is it to comprehend that it is 100x easier for Matic to maintain a respectful silence given it's his first year of doing it and he hasn't had papers berating him every day year after year? It's really not hard to understand lads.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 10 minutes ago, nebristolred said: The poppy IS blood stained. How can you dispute that? British soldiers killed people from his hometown!!! That's literally his problem with it, and I agree with him. He's even said himself that if it was just for WW1 and WW2 victims he'd wear it every day. Turning his back on the national anthem is probably for similar reasons but I agree that is a little disrespectful. How difficult is it to comprehend that it is 100x easier for Matic to maintain a respectful silence given it's his first year of doing it and he hasn't had papers berating him every day year after year? It's really not hard to understand lads.... Whether it is blood stained or otherwise, free speech isn't absolute- it has limits and always has. No poppy fine, observe minutes silence probably for the best, national anthem don't sing, but don't turn back on either- fully support his right to his view but at the same time he has to be pragmatic about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebristolred Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 29 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Whether it is blood stained or otherwise, free speech isn't absolute- it has limits and always has. No poppy fine, observe minutes silence probably for the best, national anthem don't sing, but don't turn back on either- fully support his right to his view but at the same time he has to be pragmatic about it. Which he has! Perhaps turning his back on the anthem aside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBCFC Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: His choice whether he wears it, but should have gone about it better IMO. Matic seems to have handled it with a lot more maturity. 3 hours ago, nebristolred said: Matic hasn't had anywhere near the amount of **** that McLean has had. How has he done it better? They both released statements, one was vilified and one was accepted. I'll agree McLean by all accounts is a bit of a knob but I can't criticise him for this. Wasn't it the media that made this a big deal this year? I saw McLean/his club released a statement, but there were already articles saying he would't be wearing the poppy before then. He has every right to then release a statement in response Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 11 minutes ago, nebristolred said: Which he has! Perhaps turning his back on the anthem aside. He hasn't been terribly pragmatic about it, fairly sure I read that he started walking round during a Minute's silence too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebristolred Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said: He hasn't been terribly pragmatic about it, fairly sure I read that he started walking round during a Minute's silence too. All of your statements are 'I'm pretty sure' or 'I think'. How about actually getting to know your stuff before giving him nonsense abuse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS2 Red Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Whether it is blood stained or otherwise, free speech isn't absolute- it has limits and always has. No poppy fine, observe minutes silence probably for the best, national anthem don't sing, but don't turn back on either- fully support his right to his view but at the same time he has to be pragmatic about it. Free speech does have limits, I agree there. Those limits though are a long long way past not wearing a poppy, not being silent for a minutes silence* (has McClean ever actually done that?) or turning your back during the national anthem. *Not observing a minutes silence is a horrible thing to do, but I don't think there should be a punishment for it and think it should be protected by freedom of expression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 29 minutes ago, nebristolred said: All of your statements are 'I'm pretty sure' or 'I think'. How about actually getting to know your stuff before giving him nonsense abuse? I am not abusing McClean thanks- I actually think he has the right to take this stance, which his abusers presumably do not. I just believe it's best to be pragmatic in these cases, and by pushing the issue as he has, he hasn't been pragmatic and the reaction is predictable. Not good- predictable. Inevitable if you like. You talk about my statements- yet to see much acknowledgement by yourself that this has rumbled on since 2011, 2012 time. @BS2 Red From what I read, McClean didn't interrupt the minutes silence verbally, but he did apparently walk about during one. Not saying it is a freedom of expression offence but it will rightly or wrongly cause public hostility because these things are sacred or seen as such- sacrosanct also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 7 hours ago, nebristolred said: Oh give up. Just for his ego is it? Tell me. If you came from a small village where another country came and shot 30 of your people, killing half of them, would you then wear a symbol which commemorates the lives of those doing the shooting? Describing himself as a Proud Fenian, quoting Bobby Sands, turning his back during the playing of the national anthem, being seen walking around during a minutes silence ... Yes it not a sign of diplomacy and humility. He chooses to earn a fortune playing football in a nation he clearly has issues with. Money over supposed morals .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, Cowshed said: Describing himself as a Proud Fenian, quoting Bobby Sands, turning his back during the playing of the national anthem, being seen walking around during a minutes silence ... Yes it not a sign of diplomacy and humility. He chooses to earn a fortune playing football in a nation he clearly has issues with. Money over supposed morals .. He's from NI, always a problematic issue there. Even the name of the city in question is called different things by different communities- Derry or LondonDerry. No particular excuse for the anthem, minutes silence, Sands stuff however I defend his right not to wear a poppy if he wishes. Fenian a term I have only heard loosely before, I always took to mean Irish or another word for Catholic- or at worst a form of identity/self-determination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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