How difficult is it to be consistent in the Championship?

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Held back???!!!! Mick kept them competitive in this division for six years with a transfer fee budget of less than £1m per year...no way we’d stay up if LJ had financial restrictions imposed on him along those lines. We chucked £5.3m at the Fammy signing.....that was Mick’s transfer fee budget for his entire reign as Ipswich boss....

Is that gross or net?

There's no doubt he had an impressive body of work at Ipswich, but without analysing the annual accounts of Ipswich that doesn't give the full picture- indeed it cannot.

Also losing the goals of Waghorn, McGoldrick and Garner in one summer- how do you know McCarthy wouldn't have struggled also?

Webster at the back but he didn't play a huge amount- but in case of the strikers, not only the goals either, but the assists too and arguably in case of McGoldrick and Waghorn link play.

[BS4 on Tour...]

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Also losing the goals of Waghorn, McGoldrick and Garner in one summer- how do you know McCarthy wouldn't have struggled also?

No-one will ever know that....but I reckon they’d be doing better under MM than they currently are....he has an amazing track record....top manager...

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

No-one will ever know that....but I reckon they’d be doing better under MM than they currently are....he has an amazing track record....top manager...

Nobody will know as you say. My guess would be, Probably lower midtable- no real chance of playoffs but a bit of a gap from bottom 3.

Then again though, bad enough for us losing one primary goalscorer- though you could argue with Flint it was 2, but to lose 3 in one summer...wow.

At its most basic level- 57 goals scored last season, Waghorn 16, Garner 10, McGoldrick 6- that is 56.14%- before you analyse assists, linkup etc. Tell me a manager who wouldn't struggle losing 32/57 goals.

[BS4 on Tour...]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Probably be lower midtable- no real chance of playoffs but a bit of a gap from bottom 3.

Then again though, bad enough for us losing one primary goalscorer- though you could argue with Flint it was 2, but to lose 3...wow.

Yep.....Garner, McGoldrick and Waghorn got 62 goals between them for Ipswich in the last five years and they lost all three at the same time. However, we lost Flint, Bryan and Reid at the same time and those three scored around 80 goals for us in the last seven years and none of them were what you’d call an out and out ‘striker’ - so we lost a lot of goals at one time - somehow I don’t think we realised how much we relied on non centre forwards/strikers to get us goals....now we are putting pressure on Fammy and Weimann to deliver when we could always rely on others in the past....

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Yep.....Garner, McGoldrick and Waghorn got 62 goals between them for Ipswich in the last five years and they lost all three at the same time. However, we lost Flint, Bryan and Reid at the same time and those three scored around 80 goals for us in the last seven years and none of them were what you’d call an out and out ‘striker’ - so we lost a lot of goals at one time - somehow I don’t think we realised how much we relied on non centre forwards/strikers to get us goals....now we are putting pressure on Fammy and Weimann to deliver when we could always rely on others in the past....

I'll have a look at the exact figures for last season- think they in crude terms lost a greater % of goals in the League than we did (that's before we factor in linkup, chemistry- less tangible but important factors).

How many did Flint get last year? Usually good for about 5-10 a season at this level, wasn't he. It's the modern way though, goals spread around a team- defenders expected to score, strikers expected to help out at the back or more likely defend from the front. Puts a lot of pressure as you say.

Looked up the figures- from those 3 we lost 32, they lost 32. Difference was we scored 67, which gave us that bit more margin for error, plus are a better side in other areas than Ipswich- still think if McCarthy had lost those 3 then reinvested what he would have been given in the signings Ipswich made this summer it would have been an uphill battle even for him.

[BS4 on Tour...]

12 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I'll have a look at the exact figures for last season- think they in crude terms lost a greater % of goals in the League than we did....

Looked up the figures- from those 3 we lost 32, they lost 32...

Close, our three non strikers scored 32 between them in the league last season, the three strikers that Ipswich lost scored 30 between them last season...

[Carey 6]

13 hours ago, spudski said:

One of the hardest divisions in the world imo.

Unfortunately...we live in a world where people want instant success ..even older one's seem to have been taken in by the culture of demanding success instantly.

Whilst we as a club we maybe not perfect, but who is in this league, it is imo, trying to do the right thing, however making mistakes along the way...like most clubs.

It's sad to read so many posts of fans moaning and not enjoying football and following a club for what it is.

Could be so much worse.

Sometimes it needs a moment of clarity...step away from the keyboard and to reflect.

However...it seems some are actually only happy when they are moaning. Pretty sad really.

Often reflects what's going on in a person's personal life imo.

Can't see you getting many responses because it doesn't fit with negativity

Didn’t you change your forum name to ‘depths of despair’ during Cotterills reign? You also constantly digged at the bloke whilst he was manager here. 

I find the highlighted part of the post slightly condescending considering the tone of your posts during that period. 

Of course, without being able to see posters name history any more, I could be completely wrong. 

[David Brent]

I don’t think we do want instant success. Would just like to be competitive..which we definitely have not been recently. It’s quite simple.

Of course it’s difficult to find form in this league. It’s the most competitive and unpredictable league there is.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Close, our three non strikers scored 32 between them in the league last season, the three strikers that Ipswich lost scored 30 between them last season...

Oddly, we could do this all day (if it wasn't for work  )

It was worse than I thought though- McGoldrick did get 6 goals for them last season, but 5 of these players have left. Subtract these goals from 57 (forget the XG aspect). We lose 32 goals out of 67 (I know that's a crude analysis).

Ipswich lose 43 out of 57. I know Mick McCarthy can work miracles but there's a good case to say he would have struggled.

 

[Bristol Oil Services]

2 hours ago, Carey 6 said:

Didn’t you change your forum name to ‘depths of despair’ during Cotterills reign? You also constantly digged at the bloke whilst he was manager here. 

I find the highlighted part of the post slightly condescending considering the tone of your posts during that period. 

Of course, without being able to see posters name history any more, I could be completely wrong. 

Spudski was first response in on this thread, started well with his first line - broadly relevant to the OP and his theme of consistency in the Championship  - but by the end of his first post he is off on his thoughts about other people and their negativity. Thoughts we have all read from spudski many times before on here. Which of course draws in the people he is taking aim at and bingo! the thread descends into moaning, insults and negativity! 

At which, no doubt, mr spuds shakes his head and despairs at the negativity of other people and the world! 

Like all of us, old spuds lives in a deluded world of his own creation within his own mind. Not that he will recognise this, bless him....

[Nogbad the Bad]

3 hours ago, Carey 6 said:

Didn’t you change your forum name to ‘depths of despair’ during Cotterills reign? You also constantly digged at the bloke whilst he was manager here. 

I find the highlighted part of the post slightly condescending considering the tone of your posts during that period. 

Of course, without being able to see posters name history any more, I could be completely wrong. 

No, you're completely right, on all points.

[Nogbad the Bad]

14 hours ago, spudski said:

Literally the forums medicated ***...**** off you wum. 

Everyone who's followed your forum 'career' will see the total hipocrisy in your posts.

One of the most negative posters imaginable when the manager, or his style of football doesn't fit with your ideal, and one of the most supportive no matter what the results or how frustrating the football on view, as long as he's someone you don't personally dislike, and his teams play the way you favour.

Some dreadful comments from you on this thread, and now throwing around personal insults.

Very poor @spudski.

[BRISTOL86]

3 hours ago, David Brent said:

I don’t think we do want instant success. Would just like to be competitive..which we definitely have not been recently. It’s quite simple.

Of course it’s difficult to find form in this league. It’s the most competitive and unpredictable league there is.

 

I don’t think that’s true. What does competitive actually mean in this context? By my reckoning we’ve not been in the bottom 3 of the championship for 626 days (and for the vast majority of time since then we’ve actually been nowhere near it, not just narrowly staying out of it)  

In my simple logic that shows we are competitive at this level. There are very few games in which we’re genuinely turned over/embarrassed. 

Of course if by competitive you mean challenging for top six every season then that’s a different argument.

I guess my key point is that I think people genuinely forget that most weeks, at most grounds in this league, you have two teams of eleven very evenly matched players.

To achieve consistent successful form in those circumstances you have to be very good indeed, and those that do tend to be much bigger clubs than us in terms of wage spending ability (I think people also forget that FFP means we actually have to work within a prescribed framework and can’t just do what we want and throw Uncle Steve’s wallet at it). 

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I don’t think that’s true. What does competitive actually mean in this context? By my reckoning we’ve not been in the bottom 3 of the championship for 626 days (and for the vast majority of time since then we’ve actually been nowhere near it, not just narrowly staying out of it)  

In my simple logic that shows we are competitive at this level. There are very few games in which we’re genuinely turned over/embarrassed. 

Of course if by competitive you mean challenging for top six every season then that’s a different argument.

I guess my key point is that I think people genuinely forget that most weeks, at most grounds in this league, you have two teams of eleven very evenly matched players.

To achieve consistent successful form in those circumstances you have to be very good indeed, and those that do tend to be much bigger clubs than us in terms of wage spending ability (I think people also forget that FFP means we actually have to work within a prescribed framework and can’t just do what we want and throw Uncle Steve’s wallet at it). 

Agree with a lot of this. We're seldom thumped, we are usually in games and this League is in a lot of cases very well matched on the pitch.

The problem I have is the tactics and the hit and miss- don't think it is a disaster, but it isn't stellar either- recruitment make that already hard task that you outline harder.

[BRISTOL86]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agree with a lot of this. We're seldom thumped, we are usually in games and this League is in a lot of cases very well matched on the pitch.

The problem I have is the tactics and the hit and miss- don't think it is a disaster, but it isn't stellar either- recruitment make that already hard task that you outline harder.

Agreed. We have games like PNE where we look absolutely abject but it’s simply not true that that’s the norm.

Reading was described as appalling / abject / pathetic - well we scored twice away from home and clearly were competitive in the game - but we made stupid mistakes and gifted very soft goals. 

Three defeats and people are acting like we’ve been awful all season which just isn’t true. 

[Robbored]

15 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Agreed. We have games like PNE where we look absolutely abject but it’s simply not true that that’s the norm.

Three defeats and people are acting like we’ve been awful all season which just isn’t true. 

Almost all of those negative post are posted by the anti LJ brigade. Personally I take very little notice as their agenda is so obvious.

That said the PNE performance was about the worse one since City 0-6 at home to Cardiff....

[cidered abroad]

31 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I don’t think that’s true. What does competitive actually mean in this context? By my reckoning we’ve not been in the bottom 3 of the championship for 626 days (and for the vast majority of time since then we’ve actually been nowhere near it, not just narrowly staying out of it)  

In my simple logic that shows we are competitive at this level. There are very few games in which we’re genuinely turned over/embarrassed. 

Of course if by competitive you mean challenging for top six every season then that’s a different argument.

I guess my key point is that I think people genuinely forget that most weeks, at most grounds in this league, you have two teams of eleven very evenly matched players.

To achieve consistent successful form in those circumstances you have to be very good indeed, and those that do tend to be much bigger clubs than us in terms of wage spending ability (I think people also forget that FFP means we actually have to work within a prescribed framework and can’t just do what we want and throw Uncle Steve’s wallet at it). 

The bold highlighted part is very true and it is impossible to always be on form, up for it, and able to counter the other sides strong points. Form and performance will always be dependent on so many factors.

But if the club has a squad of players who are in tune with the team formation, know what and when to do certain things, are willing to put in a shift in every match, whether we then win, lose or draw, it will still be recognised by the supporters as "a performance" that the club, the players and supporters can appreciate. None of us like losing, but it is a part of life let alone professional sport.

If we had peppered the PNE goal with shots and headers, their keeper having one of those games they dream about, then we clap our team off, give a special round of applause to the goalkeeper and go home in a reasonable frame of mind. As we did at the Stoke game.

It's when the team do not perform, look like they only met the other team members an hour before kick off and even in some cases, hide on the pitch, that we, the paying supporters, have every good reason to feel cheated.

 

[BRISTOL86]

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Almost all of those negative post are posted by the anti LJ brigade. Personally I take very little notice as their agenda is so obvious.

That said the PNE performance was about the worse one since City 0-6 at home to Cardiff....

I don’t want my comments to fuel a pro/anti LJ discussion to be honest as there’s enough of that already in other threads (and I’m neither!). More of an observation about how disproportionate the reaction is to what is - in the context of this season - a relatively short spell of poor form. 

Having said that with the fixtures coming up, he’s got a job on his hands. Fingers crossed we can at least put in a decent performance at Leeds and try and quickly move on from the PNE debacle. It was truly woeful on every level. 

[BRISTOL86]

4 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

The bold highlighted part is very true and it is impossible to always be on form, up for it, and able to counter the other sides strong points. Form and performance will always be dependent on so many factors.

But if the club has a squad of players who are in tune with the team formation, know what and when to do certain things, are willing to put in a shift in every match, whether we then win, lose or draw, it will still be recognised by the supporters as "a performance" that the club, the players and supporters can appreciate. None of us like losing, but it is a part of life let alone professional sport.

If we had peppered the PNE goal with shots and headers, their keeper having one of those games they dream about, then we clap our team off, give a special round of applause to the goalkeeper and go home in a reasonable frame of mind. As we did at the Stoke game.

It's when the team do not perform, look like they only met the other team members an hour before kick off and even in some cases, hide on the pitch, that we, the paying supporters, have every good reason to feel cheated.

 

Completely agree. You only have to look at the full time reaction to losing to Stoke to see that we can be positive in defeat when its merited. 

It frustates me that an awful performance is always treated 5x as viciously (and for 5x as long) as a positive one is celebrated but I guess that’s the nature of football fans. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

19 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

The bold highlighted part is very true and it is impossible to always be on form, up for it, and able to counter the other sides strong points. Form and performance will always be dependent on so many factors.

But if the club has a squad of players who are in tune with the team formation, know what and when to do certain things, are willing to put in a shift in every match, whether we then win, lose or draw, it will still be recognised by the supporters as "a performance" that the club, the players and supporters can appreciate. None of us like losing, but it is a part of life let alone professional sport.

If we had peppered the PNE goal with shots and headers, their keeper having one of those games they dream about, then we clap our team off, give a special round of applause to the goalkeeper and go home in a reasonable frame of mind. 

It's when the team do not perform, look like they only met the other team members an hour before kick off and even in some cases, hide on the pitch, that we, the paying supporters, have every good reason to feel cheated.

 

Exactly right.

Was noticeable there was not any widespread booing at final whistle v Stoke. Same result as v Preston- yet 2nd half especially a world of difference. Fans knew the team had given it an excellent go, hgad played quite well- stretched Stoke and denied by a combination of woodwork and Butland. One of those days.

Preston, 83rd minute until first shot on target and looked open in general too- thought their winner was soft.

Sheffield Wednesday at home though I think if Kelly had scored in first half we may win, the lack of a late siege on their goal was very poor- and a shock. Can't recall if there was booing but there may well have been- felt particularly dismayed at the lack of intent at the end of that one. Took a quick look at the game and the big indictment for me in that- aside from the disappointing result which is one thing- is that after we scored the penalty we didn't have a shot. Not a shot in anger- be it on target, wide or blocked- thought memory was playing tricks but no I was right.

Same result, 1 goal loss at home- world of difference across all 3.

[Port Said Red]

7 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Almost all of those negative post are posted by the anti LJ brigade. Personally I take very little notice as their agenda is so obvious.

That said the PNE performance was about the worse one since City 0-6 at home to Cardiff....

I had wiped that one from my memory, partly because I remember us looking quite bright in the first 20 minutes.  

The one I keep going back to in my head was losing 7-1 to Northampton and dropping to foot of the football league. I imagine that Terry Cooper would have had a few brick bats on here if we had been around at that time. Apparently they had quite a lengthy post game inquest after that and we picked up considerably after that. Sometimes need to have those low points to reassess and reset. I seem to remember that even Liverpool during the 70's would have the occasional aberration in the middle of the season, but they just picked up where they left off most of the time. 

[Nogbad the Bad]

31 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

The bold highlighted part is very true and it is impossible to always be on form, up for it, and able to counter the other sides strong points. Form and performance will always be dependent on so many factors.

But if the club has a squad of players who are in tune with the team formation, know what and when to do certain things, are willing to put in a shift in every match, whether we then win, lose or draw, it will still be recognised by the supporters as "a performance" that the club, the players and supporters can appreciate. None of us like losing, but it is a part of life let alone professional sport.

If we had peppered the PNE goal with shots and headers, their keeper having one of those games they dream about, then we clap our team off, give a special round of applause to the goalkeeper and go home in a reasonable frame of mind. 

It's when the team do not perform, look like they only met the other team members an hour before kick off and even in some cases, hide on the pitch, that we, the paying supporters, have every good reason to feel cheated.

 

The 11 players sent out to represent Bristol City should always be 'up for it' as a bare minimum.

One or two may be a bit underpar form-wise each week but the other 9 should be capable of pulling them through.

As for countering the other side's strong points, maybe that shouldn't be the first thought.

How about we negate the oppositions strengths through assertiveness, aggression, belief, and our own strong game plan so they have to worry about us?

And if they're better than us after all that we'll concede we were indeed beaten by a better team and be satisfied with our players regardless of the defeat.

What we expect to see, and have a right to expect, is consistency of performance each week, a basic standard of competitiveness we never fall below whoever the opposition is, and this can be instilled through consistent selection and tactics and a team spirit engendered by the manager that ensures every player enters the pitch fired up with a determination to give 100% in every game for himself, his team mates, the manager, the club, and the fans.

I don't remember Dicks (or indeed for further example Cooper, Jordan or Cotterill) ever having any recurring problems with non performing 'hiding' players or a seeming lack of effort or commitment, so perhaps the problem lies with the motivational qualities of the man who not only picks the team and tactics, but gives the pre match and half time speeches.

 

[glynriley]

17 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I had wiped that one from my memory, partly because I remember us looking quite bright in the first 20 minutes.  

The one I keep going back to in my head was losing 7-1 to Northampton and dropping to foot of the football league. I imagine that Terry Cooper would have had a few brick bats on here if we had been around at that time. Apparently they had quite a lengthy post game inquest after that and we picked up considerably after that. Sometimes need to have those low points to reassess and reset. I seem to remember that even Liverpool during the 70's would have the occasional aberration in the middle of the season, but they just picked up where they left off most of the time. 

TBF to TC, he had a team full of teenagers and free signings. The debacle v PNE 2 weeks ago was produced by a manager who has has had 3 years (and 40+ signings) to develop HIS squad.

[Cowshed]

27 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

The 11 players sent out to represent Bristol City should always be 'up for it' as a bare minimum.

One or two may be a bit underpar form-wise each week but the other 9 should be capable of pulling them through.

As for countering the other side's strong points, maybe that shouldn't be the first thought.

How about we negate the oppositions strengths through assertion, aggression, belief, and our own strong game plan so they have to worry about us?

And if they're better than us after all that we'll concede we were indeed beaten by a better team and be satisfied with our players regardless of the defeat.

What we expect to see, and have a right to expect, is consistency of performance each week, a basic standard of competitiveness we never fall below whoever the opposition is, and this can be instilled through consistent selection and tactics and a team spirit engendered by the manager that ensures every player enters the pitch fired up with a determination to give 100% in every game for himself, his team mates, the manager, the club, and the fans.

I don't remember Dicks (or indeed for further example Cooper, Jordan or Cotterill) ever having any recurring problems with non performing 'hiding' players or a seeming lack of effort or commitment, so perhaps the problem lies with the motivational qualities of the man who not only picks the team and tactics, but gives the pre match and half time speeches.

 

In the case of Cooper he was sacked after the players downed tools v Southend on a Friday night. Jordan had Andy May a player so inconsistent a fanzine devoted a page to him featuring just a few words ANDY MAY CAN YOU AT LEAST LOOK LIKE YOU ARE TRYING.

All Managers will have problems with players who under perform. 

Should always be up for it does not take into account how multi facetted that is. If a player is not technically suited to his given task. not tactically up to speed, ill prepared and physically not suited he will have to be a unique psychological specimen to be up for it. Its irrational this thought that no matter what players should be this up for it. Players are frequently one of those boxes and not being superhuman will suffer form and confidence issues.

Your second point highlights where confidence, that fighters mindset can be bolstered. Clarity, knowledge, periodized training, knowing you are suited to the task and prepared for it feeds confident mindsets. 

When team selection and its tactics are not consistent … Mindset virtually always suffers … Even at the peak of the football profession .. I would suggest City are not at this peak, cannot sign super humans and its over complication, inconsistency part responsible for BCFC's wax and waning performance level.

[Robbored]

36 minutes ago, glynriley said:

TBF to TC, he had a team full of teenagers and free signings. The debacle v PNE 2 weeks ago was produced by a manager who has has had 3 years (and 40+ signings) to develop HIS squad.

A big difference for sure not only the eras but the financial clout. 

I asked this before - how many of LJs signings have been Championship ready?   Many of them were signed for development and all of them are out on loan learning the game and gaining experience of competitive men’s football. There is none available for them otherwise.

[Port Said Red]

1 hour ago, glynriley said:

TBF to TC, he had a team full of teenagers and free signings. The debacle v PNE 2 weeks ago was produced by a manager who has has had 3 years (and 40+ signings) to develop HIS squad.

Oh I agree, I just think there would have still been some with a negative view even then. The reason I mentioned Liverpool as well, is because it's also possible for established teams to have a really bad day too.

 

32 minutes ago, Robbored said:

A big difference for sure not only the eras but the financial clout. 

I asked this before - how many of LJs signings have been Championship ready?   Many of them were signed for development and all of them are out on loan learning the game and gaining experience of competitive men’s football. There is none available for them otherwise.

There are still a lot of people who look at what we have spent in isolation, it's still a drop in the ocean compared to some at this level.

[BlueDredd]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Almost all of those negative post are posted by the anti LJ brigade. Personally I take very little notice as their agenda is so obvious.

That said the PNE performance was about the worse one since City 0-6 at home to Cardiff....

What a day.

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, BlueDredd said:

What a day.

Bloody Chopra bagged a hat trick iirc............

[BlueDredd]

Just now, Robbored said:

Bloody Chopra bagged a hat trick iirc............

Chopra only scored twice... I remember he bagged one straight after the restart for his second. (Never a good time to concede)

[Robbored]

3 minutes ago, BlueDredd said:

Chopra only scored twice... I remember he bagged one straight after the restart for his second. (Never a good time to concede)

I remember him over celebrating and running down the touch line ala Scot Murray at NP all those years ago....