How difficult is it to be consistent in the Championship?

[BRISTOLCITY26]

17 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Accept a lot of what @spudski says about the competitiveness of the division, club playing catch up, still building etc- it's a very tough League, we all know this.

However, what I would say is that in such a tough League surely it is therefore important, if not imperative that you get your tactics right and give yourself the best chance of success or improvement?

My point is, it's hard enough as it is in this League, especially trying to fast track as we seem to be so surely we need to be as close to spot on as possible tactically to help bridge the gap.

Because of these factors we need the best possible conditions and opportunity to succeed despite resources and transfers- and tactically to take one example (others will argue other areas also) we are not getting that. Hence the concern from fans.

But who's to say we haven't got our tactics right? How do we know with other tactics/subs etc we could have lost more games. 

Because the truth of the matter is all of us fans know less about professional football than LJ and his team if we are being honest. A lot of the critism thrown at them is often in hindsight which we all know is 20/;20,

 

I believe the club are doing a lot right, especially with the young players and really feel like we are at the start of something very exciting.

 

COYR

[ZiderEyed]

6 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I remember him over celebrating and running down the touch line ala Scot Murray at NP all those years ago....

Didn't your mate trip him up then or was that a different game? Blurred it from my memory...

[Robbored]

7 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

Didn't your mate trip him up then or was that a different game? Blurred it from my memory...

He did........very very unprofessional behaviour..............

[BRISTOL86]

4 minutes ago, Robbored said:

He did........very very unprofessional behaviour..............

Funny though. 

[Nogbad the Bad]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

In the case of Cooper he was sacked after the players downed tools v Southend on a Friday night. Jordan had Andy May a player so inconsistent a fanzine devoted a page to him featuring just a few words ANDY MAY CAN YOU AT LEAST LOOK LIKE YOU ARE TRYING.

All Managers will have problems with players who under perform. 

Should always be up for it does not take into account how multi facetted that is. If a player is not technically suited to his given task. not tactically up to speed, ill prepared and physically not suited he will have to be a unique psychological specimen to be up for it. Its irrational this thought that no matter what players should be this up for it. Players are frequently one of those boxes and not being superhuman will suffer form and confidence issues.

Your second point highlights where confidence, that fighters mindset can be bolstered. Clarity, knowledge, periodized training, knowing you are suited to the task and prepared for it feeds confident mindsets. 

When team selection and its tactics are not consistent … Mindset virtually always suffers … Even at the peak of the football profession .. I would suggest City are not at this peak, cannot sign super humans and its over complication, inconsistency part responsible for BCFC's wax and waning performance level.

If that's true about TC the players should have been run out of town. I'm surprised he is willing to socialise 30 years on with some who must have been his betrayers if that was the case.

May was an exception - we are talking multiple players under LJ, and the same problem recurring repeatedly over a long period of time, even with him having ample opportunity to get rid of those he deems to have suspect attitudes and replace with his own.

Although I agree with many of your latter comments above I think you are in danger of over analysing mine and going off on a tangent.

Do you agree that if a team apparently underperforms in terms of commitment, both individually and as a collective, that the manager who picks it, dictates formations and tactics, and is responsible by his words and actions for inspiring the players to always give of their best, bears a major responsibility, or not?

Btw., 'all managers have players who underperform'. Could you name a few in Alan Dicks' time?

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, BRISTOLCITY26 said:

But who's to say we haven't got our tactics right? How do we know with other tactics/subs etc we could have lost more games. 

Because the truth of the matter is all of us fans know less about professional football than LJ and his team if we are being honest. A lot of the critism thrown at them is often in hindsight which we all know is 20/;20,

 

I believe the club are doing a lot right, especially with the young players and really feel like we are at the start of something very exciting.

 

COYR

That's fair and definitely could go the other way- just seems like, purely a personal view, we are not getting the best out of some of our players. Some of the shapes seem a bit of an awkward fit, a bit shoehorned. As you say though, LJ has been immersed in football as a manager, a player and with his dad being a manager also.

Still, I keep coming back to it, but why go with: 

a) A ball-playing ethos.

b) Sign players suited to said ball-playing ethos (think in the summer signings, Webster, Kalas and to an extent Maenpaa).

c) Then play them in a variety of shapes none of which are the best fit for that philosophy? In my view that is a 4-3-3 or with a lot of work and in the right circs, a version of 3-5-2. Not so much 3-5-2 maybe as 3-4-1-2/3-4-3 or even 3-5-1-1.

You can play between the lines with that, you can outnumber opposition- you can have some real versability and create triangles. Pack, Brownhill, Walsh as a proper 3 for a run would be interesting. Such a true commitment to ball-playing would even bring Hegeler back into the equation- think he has something to give in a side that truly sets out to dominate the middle, can drop into a back 3 allow the centre backs to split etc- perhaps rotate on the pitch with Pack a bit. I'm not a pure idealist, a good tactical game or shape is sometimes necessary- Sheffield United at home we tweaked it on the day and given how they play, the form they were in at that time I can understand that.

OTOH, the criticism isn't always hindsight- I remember writing a mini blueprint on here how to set up at Millwall in April in what felt like a real decisive playoff chasing clash. I basically said Millwall are comfortable without the ball, and if we set out to have dominance in this sense, the possession and in a 4-4-2 it may bring about problems. Lo and behold, much of it came to pass- we had 60-65% possession IIRC but not a single shot on target- we won the ball, they won the game. Was fairly predictable to me what would happen that day if we didn't give them a problem they weren't used to or comfortable with, and happen it did!

The youth thing is great. Followed for 20 years and things going very well on that front- Kelly, Bryan, Reid to date- Vyner after a tough start improving at Rotherham hopefully to come back here and compete, O'Leary finally getting a go this season. I remember some coming through under Wilson, Tinnion also fielding a few- hell even Phillips and Hill made their debut under Benny, maybe Aaron Brown did also but pound for pound and considering the level of football it's the best I remember it in my time supporting.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

If that's true about TC the players should have been run out of town. I'm surprised he is willing to socialise 30 years on with some who must have been his betrayers if that was the case.

May was an exception - we are talking multiple players under LJ, and the same problem recurring repeatedly over a long period of time, even with him having ample opportunity to get rid of those he deems to have suspect attitudes and replace with his own.

Although I agree with many of your latter comments above I think you are in danger of over analysing mine and going off on a tangent.

Do you agree that if a team apparently underperforms in terms of commitment, both individually and as a collective, that the manager who picks it, dictates formations and tactics, and is responsible by his words and actions for inspiring the players to always give of their best, bears a major responsibility, or not?

Btw., 'all managers have players who underperform'. Could you name a few in Alan Dicks' time?

Btw., 'all managers have players who underperform'. Could you name a few in Alan Dicks' time?

I can't as at that time I was a wide eyed kid in a EE that was an assault on the senses. My memories are clouded by the experience v the football. 

Do you agree that if a team apparently underperforms in terms of commitment, both individually and as a collective, that the manager who picks it, dictates formations and tactics, and is responsible by his words and actions for inspiring the players to always give of their best, bears a major responsibility, or not? 

Yes. All Managers experience players with confidence issues. I feel these norms are less well Managed by Mr Johnsons approach. The Managers you mention had a consistency the present does not . 

[David Brent]

4 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I don’t think that’s true. What does competitive actually mean in this context? By my reckoning we’ve not been in the bottom 3 of the championship for 626 days (and for the vast majority of time since then we’ve actually been nowhere near it, not just narrowly staying out of it)  

In my simple logic that shows we are competitive at this level. There are very few games in which we’re genuinely turned over/embarrassed. 

Of course if by competitive you mean challenging for top six every season then that’s a different argument.

I guess my key point is that I think people genuinely forget that most weeks, at most grounds in this league, you have two teams of eleven very evenly matched players.

To achieve consistent successful form in those circumstances you have to be very good indeed, and those that do tend to be much bigger clubs than us in terms of wage spending ability (I think people also forget that FFP means we actually have to work within a prescribed framework and can’t just do what we want and throw Uncle Steve’s wallet at it). 

I mean on a game by game basis. We didn’t compete against Reading or Preston..I.e. recent games 

Personally I’m not particularly fussed on league position, as long we’re not in the bottom four.

And I agree with your main point. I want to see two teams of eleven very evenly matched players.

[Port Said Red]

2 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

If that's true about TC the players should have been run out of town. I'm surprised he is willing to socialise 30 years on with some who must have been his betrayers if that was the case.

May was an exception - we are talking multiple players under LJ, and the same problem recurring repeatedly over a long period of time, even with him having ample opportunity to get rid of those he deems to have suspect attitudes and replace with his own.

Although I agree with many of your latter comments above I think you are in danger of over analysing mine and going off on a tangent.

Do you agree that if a team apparently underperforms in terms of commitment, both individually and as a collective, that the manager who picks it, dictates formations and tactics, and is responsible by his words and actions for inspiring the players to always give of their best, bears a major responsibility, or not?

Btw., 'all managers have players who underperform'. Could you name a few in Alan Dicks' time?

I see Cowshed has answered this himself Noggers, but lets be honest here, if we are looking at the 13 years that Dicks was Manager, we didn't really hit our straps until season 7 or 8 and although that was mainly down to him building his squad of youngsters, there were certainly "2 step forwards, 1 step back" moments in the preceding years. So much so that according to Dolmans book he was actually against giving Dicks any more time before the promotion season.  You may remember, as I do, that one of the first people Dicks thanked on promotion day was John Galley "who's goals kept us in Div 2 while we were building a team for Div 1", is how I remember it. There must have been players that went through bad patches at that time or we wouldn't have been hanging around the relegation zone for 5 or 6 seasons, as @Cowshed says, as a kid you almost block that out, but I remember fans shouting things from the terraces at Tainton and Sweeney and others throughout those years.  

[Nogbad the Bad]

55 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I see Cowshed has answered this himself Noggers, but lets be honest here, if we are looking at the 13 years that Dicks was Manager, we didn't really hit our straps until season 7 or 8 and although that was mainly down to him building his squad of youngsters, there were certainly "2 step forwards, 1 step back" moments in the preceding years. So much so that according to Dolmans book he was actually against giving Dicks any more time before the promotion season.  You may remember, as I do, that one of the first people Dicks thanked on promotion day was John Galley "who's goals kept us in Div 2 while we were building a team for Div 1", is how I remember it. There must have been players that went through bad patches at that time or we wouldn't have been hanging around the relegation zone for 5 or 6 seasons, as @Cowshed says, as a kid you almost block that out, but I remember fans shouting things from the terraces at Tainton and Sweeney and others throughout those years.  

Fans may well have shouted things at Sweeney and Tainton for a misplaced pass etc., but any criticism would never have involved a perceived lack of commitment, 'hiding' or lack of effort. They were both without question 100%ers.

As for Dicks' earlier teams I admit I didn't see them all but from 1970 we didn't always have the best players, but again I don't ever recall leaving a game (as I have all too often in the last 18 months) feeling those we did have put anything less than 100% in. Sometimes they were rubbish, but the effort was always there, and always visible.

Cowshed mentions the incredible EE atmosphere when we were youngsters and that alone was a draw to get to matches at the time. That atmosphere would turn very quickly on under committed players ( but vitriol was really reserved for visiting players who took hell as I recall  - Oxford's Roy Burton for instance) and I don't remember that happening often.We don't have anything resembling the EE atmosphere now so there is more focus on the minutiae of what happens on the pitch to define the matchday experience.

To me it is all too often boring - I noted I didn't rise from my slumbers (seat) even once v. PNE - uneventful, frustrating, even bewildering and if the players don't seem too bothered either way, as has sometimes appeared the case, that is unforgivable and will very quickly lead to empty seats and a big drop in ST's.

If SL wants to keep LJ - and of course he does - he's needs to tell him in no uncertain terms he expects more from him. Get his selection and subs. right and inspire the players through his character and team talks to get out there and fight for the club and the fans. 

Nothing less is acceptable from either LJ or the players, and if  LJ can't do that, and do it consistently, then frankly he needs to be replaced by someone who can.

 

[Robbored]

7 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

If SL wants to keep LJ - and of course he does - he's needs to tell him in no uncertain terms he expects more from him. Get his selection and subs. right and inspire the players through his character and team talks to get out there and fight for the club and the fans. 

Nothing less is acceptable from either LJ or the players, and if  LJ can't do that, and do it consistently, then frankly he needs to be replaced by someone who can.

 

SL has said publicly that he expects signs of progress season on season and no doubt at all the he's told LJ  the exact same thing. 

However - SL won’t tell LJ what selections or subs to make - he’s employed LJ to make the footballing decisions.

All that said, if SL was at AG and witnessed the shambles against Preston surely he must have some doubts about LJs managerial skills after that dreadful display.

To me the upcoming fixture at Elland Rd is of huge importance for LJ. He’ll have had the international break to work with his squad and had plenty of opportunities to discuss where it all went so wrong against PNE and I for one sincerely hope he’s managed to do that and that City return with at least a point.

[Nogbad the Bad]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

SL has said publicly that he expects signs of progress season on season and no doubt at all the he's told LJ  the exact same thing. 

However - SL won’t tell LJ what selections or subs to make - he’s employed LJ to make the footballing decisions.

All that said, if SL was at AG and witnessed the shambles against Preston surely he must have some doubts about LJs managerial skills after that dreadful display.

To me the upcoming fixture at Elland Rd is of huge importance for LJ. He’ll have had the international break to work with his squad and had plenty of opportunities to discuss where it all went so wrong against PNE and I for one sincerely hope he’s managed to do that and that City return with at least a point.

Of course not (hopefully) and I wasn't suggesting anything of the kind.

I'm saying SL should tell him he expects him to get his selection right much more often, in other words 'stop fannying about trying to look clever, stop having favourites, stop being scared of the opposition, and get some consistency in selection, tactics and performance'.

Then, through the great squad spirit you've engendered, and your inspirational team talks, get the team to ******* play with 100% commitment every week.

Starting right now, or else. 

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I'm saying SL should tell him he expects him to get his selection right much more often, in other words 'stop fannying about trying to look clever, stop having favourites, stop being scared of the opposition, and get some consistency in selection, tactics and performance'.

Then, through the great squad spirit you've engendered, and your inspirational team talks, get the team to ******* play with 100% commitment every week.

Wishful thing Nogbad.............

I can’t imagine SL would pass comment on football management - that’s not a part of his skill set and why he’s employed LJ to run the team for him.

It would be like telling a painter and decorator or plumber that you've employed how to how to do his job.

[Nogbad the Bad]

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Wishful thing Nogbad.............

I can’t imagine SL would pass comment on football management - that’s not a part of his skill set and why he’s employed LJ to run the team for him.

It would be like telling a painter and decorator or plumber that you've employed how to how to do his job.

I thought they spoke at length after every game, either in person or on the phone?

What do you think they talk about? That night's TV?

SL may love LJ ( in fact, no doubt there) and is extremely supportive of him in public but I bet he doesn't hold back with his opinions after performances like PNE. I'd hope not anyway......

He's not getting the progress he insisted was necessary but he wants to keep LJ - chances are he'll be giving him both barrels in private to try and ensure LJ pulls his finger out and makes the changes necessary so that sacking him - the last thing he wants - doesn't become unavoidable.

[Robbored]

23 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I thought they spoke at length after every game, either in person or on the phone?

What do you think they talk about? That night's TV?

SL may love LJ ( in fact, no doubt there) and is extremely supportive of him in public but I bet he doesn't hold back with his opinions after performances like PNE. I'd hope not anyway......

He's not getting the progress he insisted was necessary but he wants to keep LJ - chances are he'll be giving him both barrels in private to try and ensure LJ pulls his finger out and makes the changes necessary so that sacking him - the last thing he wants - doesn't become unavoidable.

I assumed they talk whenever SL is at AG and they my well talk via phone when he’s not - I don’t actually know for sure bu I’d surprised if they didn’t debrief after every game. 

I happen to think that if SL witnessed the diabolical performance against Preston surely his confidence in LJ must have taken a serious dent. That’s why the Leeds fixture is so important imv.

[cidered abroad]

6 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

I had wiped that one from my memory, partly because I remember us looking quite bright in the first 20 minutes.  

The one I keep going back to in my head was losing 7-1 to Northampton and dropping to foot of the football league. I imagine that Terry Cooper would have had a few brick bats on here if we had been around at that time. Apparently they had quite a lengthy post game inquest after that and we picked up considerably after that. Sometimes need to have those low points to reassess and reset. I seem to remember that even Liverpool during the 70's would have the occasional aberration in the middle of the season, but they just picked up where they left off most of the time. 

I was at Northampton that day along with about 1,500 other City fans.

I walked out of that ground, very proud that all the team including several teenage kids had continued to work hard, do their best against a side of giants. It was a heavy defeat but no shame that day. TC led the boys on the field, encouraging them in everything they did. Glyn Riley got a goal at 5-0 and the City fans greeted it with delight. As far as I can remember, no slagging of anyone. Not one of the best away days but nowhere near the dross we had later with managers such as Osman.

[cidered abroad]

A second hand bit of info/gossip.

During a recent home game and Johnson is screaming at Lloyd Kelly "Look at me when I'm talking to you."

Lloyd Kelly has not started a match since then. 

[Robbored]

1 hour ago, cidered abroad said:

Lloyd Kelly has not started a match since then. 

Do you suppose that has anything to do with Sasilva being first choice LB?.................