7 points from 3 games. Johnson Outers Must Be Devastated.

[Alessandro]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

That is more than two questions. 

Is that coaching or personnel? Both. Identity is not loose. Identity is driven by the Coach and sometimes the FC's playing philosophy.

Pressing, possession football. Is it always achieved, clearly no - but is that surprising? No because they are not defined fundamentals of BCFC's play.

There are methods of pressing. These actions combine with other actions. High pressing is very frequently working in unison with close passing styles. Bristol City counter, half press, counter press and screen as the team morph throughs styles and master . The fundamental of immediate pressure there is altering = Its not a identity, its muddled.

Possession football is a meaningless term without definition. Man City play possession football, so do Exeter or Brentford or Fulham and perhaps Bristol City although City last season only edged over 50% on average. An identity would define HOW that ball is moved, its principles. City go through Wingless, to Wingers, to long ball in months … 

Cardiff, Fulham and Wolves defined how they moved the ball and defended e.g Fulham attempted to monopolise possession and made an enormous amount of passes. Clear intent. 

In regards to your third paragraph what possession/high energy model? You are identifying that Famara does not fit. What possession based high energy model?  Define what it is? Its a vague notion .. Spudski wrote an interesting post regarding the ineffectual nature of Bristol City wing play x Famara. I agree with the point its ineffectual … Millions wasted there. 

The rest of the signings this summer you can see exactly how, on paper, they should fit in .. Webster (great signing) and Keeper apart they have not exactly fitted in. In Websters case I thought he was ideal, and is exactly the type of player BCFC should sign if the team intent was to play through the first third. A seriously well targetted signing to clear intent … the intent past the first third is ever changing 

is there any harm in having a few different instruments at your disposal in this league? Sorry but Bristol City have a lot of players, lost twenty four million pounds last season, operate vastly past operating costs, have no obvious tactical identity and you earlier appeared (I think) argued the club was under financial constraints. Yes there is harm in it. 

So two questions then. If they are making it up, how have they, up to now, delivered year on year progression in league position? Because people can define progress solely by points without looking at a wider context. A context is above. 

And yet, despite making it up, one final question - how many days have we spent in the bottom 3 under LJ who has the most resource committed to him of any Manager in thirty years? None. 

 

As I said to you, I’m not a tactical expert, you asked me what I thought our identity was, I gave a layman’s answer. Not once have I said we have an identity, or it is clear, or I agree with it, support it etc etc. You seem passionate about this ‘identity’ idea, that’s fine - but despite everything you write and how you dress it, you can’t answer me how we find ourselves where we are in this division despite LJ and MA ‘making it up’. I see identity as something that will be developed, so what if it changes or even isn’t found yet? What is the timeline on identity? Yes in an ideal world a coach comes in, has one and implements in. But again, not ideal world, not football. As someone has already written, look at Norwich, work in progress last season and not many would have predicted what they are doing this year - I expect many thought they’d be relegation candidates.

Again you go back to Fulham and Wolves. Fine clear intent. But clear intent is only good if you have the players to implement the clear intent successfully on the pitch right? Easy to write, harder to physicalise. Fulham and Wolves had the financial clout to do that, in the championship.

I’m confused by your recruitment comments though - So earlier you said we’ve wasted millions on a disparity between recruitment and football identity. I asked you to name the players you mean - you’ve not done that, only citing the example I gave, Fam. And yet Famara’s strike right of nearly 1 every 2 games hardly makes him a waste of money does it, despite how he fits in football wise. He’s not sat on the bench is he.

And then you agree then the rest of the recruitment fitted this last summer? So which is it? 

You talked about wider context - well I’d argue yearly progress is wider context. You could argue a huge amount of tiny over analysis by fans on here, on things like football identity, without the full infomation is, not wider context thinking - quite the opposite. 

 

[Robbored]

18 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

… I will if you please but in turn will ask about what's all this on the forum about you hiding in the bushes from Gary Johnson when you were Chairman of the SC. 

Many years of water under the bridge since all that went down Cowshed. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

28 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

As I said to you, I’m not a tactical expert, you asked me what I thought our identity was, I gave a layman’s answer. Not once have I said we have an identity, or it is clear, or I agree with it, support it etc etc. You seem passionate about this ‘identity’ idea, that’s fine - but despite everything you write and how you dress it, you can’t answer me how we find ourselves where we are in this division despite LJ and MA ‘making it up’. I see identity as something that will be developed, so what if it changes or even isn’t found yet? What is the timeline on identity? Yes in an ideal world a coach comes in, has one and implements in. But again, not ideal world, not football. As someone has already written, look at Norwich, work in progress last season and not many would have predicted what they are doing this year - I expect many thought they’d be relegation candidates.

Again you go back to Fulham and Wolves. Fine clear intent. But clear intent is only good if you have the players to implement the clear intent successfully on the pitch right? Easy to write, harder to physicalise. Fulham and Wolves had the financial clout to do that, in the championship.

I’m confused by your recruitment comments though - So earlier you said we’ve wasted millions on a disparity between recruitment and football identity. I asked you to name the players you mean - you’ve not done that, only citing the example I gave, Fam. And yet Famara’s strike right of nearly 1 every 2 games hardly makes him a waste of money does it, despite how he fits in football wise. He’s not sat on the bench is he.

And then you agree then the rest of the recruitment fitted this last summer? So which is it? 

You talked about wider context - well I’d argue yearly progress is wider context. You could argue a huge amount of tiny over analysis by fans on here, on things like football identity, without the full infomation is, not wider context thinking - quite the opposite. 

 

Leeds and Derby though seem to have established their identity in double quick time- especially Leeds with quite a few younger players or players from last season regularly starting.

Can't speak for others on here but thought Norwich would be around midtable this season- under Farke they seem to utilise the European market, find value pretty well.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

As I said to you, I’m not a tactical expert, you asked me what I thought our identity was, I gave a layman’s answer. Not once have I said we have an identity, or it is clear, or I agree with it, support it etc etc. You seem passionate about this ‘identity’ idea, that’s fine - but despite everything you write and how you dress it, you can’t answer me how we find ourselves where we are in this division despite LJ and MA ‘making it up’. I see identity as something that will be developed, so what if it changes or even isn’t found yet? What is the timeline on identity? Yes in an ideal world a coach comes in, has one and implements in. But again, not ideal world, not football. As someone has already written, look at Norwich, work in progress last season and not many would have predicted what they are doing this year - I expect many thought they’d be relegation candidates.

Again you go back to Fulham and Wolves. Fine clear intent. But clear intent is only good if you have the players to implement the clear intent successfully on the pitch right? Easy to write, harder to physicalise. Fulham and Wolves had the financial clout to do that, in the championship.

I’m confused by your recruitment comments though - So earlier you said we’ve wasted millions on a disparity between recruitment and football identity. I asked you to name the players you mean - you’ve not done that, only citing the example I gave, Fam. And yet Famara’s strike right of nearly 1 every 2 games hardly makes him a waste of money does it, despite how he fits in football wise. He’s not sat on the bench is he.

And then you agree then the rest of the recruitment fitted this last summer? So which is it? 

You talked about wider context - well I’d argue yearly progress is wider context. You could argue a huge amount of tiny over analysis by fans on here, on things like football identity, without the full infomation is, not wider context thinking - quite the opposite. 

 

I with all respects have answered why BCFC are in the division … Bristol City have the resources.

In post 313 a poster highlights that identity can be put into place in months. The fundamentals really can. 

Unfortunately this is where Mr Robbored will not like my post.

If you look at identity and Mr Johnson own words in a tactical sense they do not make sense.  Identities - A model of play works in a methodical way. Mr Johnson is still at the storming stage. Mr Johnson is experimenting with Mr Lansdowns good grace and money. BCFC should be well beyond the stage of experimentation. Given LJ's and MA rhetoric the project should be in its norming stage where the improvements to this model of play are being progressed. 

I see identity as something that will be developed, so what if it changes or even isn’t found yet?

Then opportunity, time and huge amounts of money could be looked upon as wasted. Your post is a contradiction you cannot develop what you do not have.  Mr Johnson clearly feels Bristol City have an identity, and MA proceeds down a meticulous process to seek players players with right dna to fit this vision. 

Again you go back to Fulham and Wolves. Fine clear intent. But clear intent is only good if you have the players to implement the clear intent successfully on the pitch right?

You with all respect miss the point again. It is Mr Johnson who has the intent. It does not take seasons and years to put his playing principles onto the park. His players his team out there .. Now.

Regarding Famara he was recruited at some cost and you feel he does fit the football. You are right he certainly did not fit the football played late 2017. Bristol Citys flag ship forward signing did not fit the football … Its a point beyond goals scored … A player was signed with serious limitation for the football … This is not meant to happen. 

Webster is a different proposition. Because the team has had a emphasis on playing through the third this player key qualities for the team needs fit adeptly. 

I used the word need. In the second and third the team needs alter frequently and significantly. Wing, wingless, one up top, two, direct/vertical, high tempo to feet its inconsistent and thus recruitment is scatter gun. If the teams football was less complex, there was less change recruitment would be better directed … And that goes right back to LJ and MA's own words on identity and recruitment.  

You talked about wider context - well I’d argue yearly progress is wider context. You could argue a huge amount of tiny over analysis by fans on here, on things like football identity .. You could. I would not.

The teams tactical identity is intrinsic to its real progression. 

[Robbored]

42 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Leeds and Derby though seem to have established their identity in double quick time- especially Leeds with quite a few younger players or players from last season regularly starting.

Can't speak for others on here but thought Norwich would be around midtable this season- under Farke they seem to utilise the European market, find value pretty well.

What is Derby and Leeds ‘identity?’  I certainly don’t know but you obviously do.....

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

What is Derby and Leeds ‘identity?’  I certainly don’t know but you obviously do.....

Leeds play like a Bielsa side. Passing, intense pressing, good defensive shape brought about via their pressing- them getting him was a big coup. He's managed at significantly higher levels than the Championship.

Derby? Think they're a 4-3-3 under Lampard, broadly speaking- good in possession, seem quite attack minded.

[Robbored]

16 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Leeds play like a Bielsa side. Passing, intense pressing, good defensive shape brought about via their pressing- them getting him was a big coup. He's managed at significantly higher levels than the Championship.

Derby? Think they're a 4-3-3 under Lampard, broadly speaking- good in possession, seem quite attack minded.

Those descriptions are not unique to Leeds and Derby. Pretty much all the top Championship teams play in a similar way.

[spudski]

The Club actually had a page last season, which spoke about what our 'playing philosophy' was and how we wanted to create our playing identity.

For whatever reason...they've removed/deleted it.

It would be nice for the fans, for the Club to reintroduce it, so we know exactly what our playing identity and philosophy is.

Imo...like I've said in previous posts in other threads...our playing identity has changed. And it seems to be continually evolving.

Certain fans say Famara doesn't fit in with our style of play. When LJ signed him, he said..“He fits the bill for us because he’ll complement all of our strikers perfectly. He’s powerful, he’s quick and I think he’s got the potential to get even bigger and stronger physically.

“The beauty is that now is his time to shine. He’s a goal scorer in that he gets into good areas and can score different types of goals – volleys, headers and he’s got an attitude to shoot, which is what we’re after.

“I think we can work with him and improve him, which is exciting for me because he’s a raw talent who can go as far as he wants in football.”

I agree, when people say he doesn't fit with the 'high energy pressing side of the game'...however I think LJ wanted a more physical presence up front, especially at set pieces.

Whether that has been successful or not is debateable...he blows hot and cold.

In very simple lay mans terms... I still think LJ wants to play possession based football, with high energy and tempo, playing through the thirds, with simple pass and movement off the ball. Doing it quickly and with energy. When not in possession...defending as a unit, and closing down quickly when there are triggers.

A very basic analogy.

For various reasons...it's not been happening that way.

Without making excuses...I think we have evolved to play the way we are at present. Some by planning...some by mistake, some by hitting on a strength in training....and making the most of players skills.

I also think we've recruited some players that haven't worked out how we had hoped. That's football. So we've had to adapt.

One of those 'adaptions' is playing wider offensively. Kelly and Eliasson are both crossing more. Where in the past...we would come inside more and play 'passes' into the box more centrally. Eliasson is great at crossing a ball...and right now, I think LJ is using that quality to get us out of a rut so to speak. The introduction of Pisano...he's a great crosser and good offensive defender. Playing to a strength.

I honestly don't believe LJ has planned to play this way long term. He's adapted and then trained that way for a short term result. I really don't think it's something we are going to be looking to do long term.

I maybe proven wrong...but that's my gut feeling.

Players are out of form...some injured...to me we are adapting accordingly. Trying to play to the strengths of players that are on form.

It'll be interesting to see who goes in January and who we bring in.

Just a gut feeling....

 

 

[Trueredsupporter]

37 minutes ago, spudski said:

The Club actually had a page last season, which spoke about what our 'playing philosophy' was and how we wanted to create our playing identity.

For whatever reason...they've removed/deleted it.

It would be nice for the fans, for the Club to reintroduce it, so we know exactly what our playing identity and philosophy is.

Imo...like I've said in previous posts in other threads...our playing identity has changed. And it seems to be continually evolving.

Certain fans say Famara doesn't fit in with our style of play. When LJ signed him, he said..“He fits the bill for us because he’ll complement all of our strikers perfectly. He’s powerful, he’s quick and I think he’s got the potential to get even bigger and stronger physically.

“The beauty is that now is his time to shine. He’s a goal scorer in that he gets into good areas and can score different types of goals – volleys, headers and he’s got an attitude to shoot, which is what we’re after.

“I think we can work with him and improve him, which is exciting for me because he’s a raw talent who can go as far as he wants in football.”

I agree, when people say he doesn't fit with the 'high energy pressing side of the game'...however I think LJ wanted a more physical presence up front, especially at set pieces.

Whether that has been successful or not is debateable...he blows hot and cold.

In very simple lay mans terms... I still think LJ wants to play possession based football, with high energy and tempo, playing through the thirds, with simple pass and movement off the ball. Doing it quickly and with energy. When not in possession...defending as a unit, and closing down quickly when there are triggers.

A very basic analogy.

For various reasons...it's not been happening that way.

Without making excuses...I think we have evolved to play the way we are at present. Some by planning...some by mistake, some by hitting on a strength in training....and making the most of players skills.

I also think we've recruited some players that haven't worked out how we had hoped. That's football. So we've had to adapt.

One of those 'adaptions' is playing wider offensively. Kelly and Eliasson are both crossing more. Where in the past...we would come inside more and play 'passes' into the box more centrally. Eliasson is great at crossing a ball...and right now, I think LJ is using that quality to get us out of a rut so to speak. The introduction of Pisano...he's a great crosser and good offensive defender. Playing to a strength.

I honestly don't believe LJ has planned to play this way long term. He's adapted and then trained that way for a short term result. I really don't think it's something we are going to be looking to do long term.

I maybe proven wrong...but that's my gut feeling.

Players are out of form...some injured...to me we are adapting accordingly. Trying to play to the strengths of players that are on form.

It'll be interesting to see who goes in January and who we bring in.

Just a gut feeling....

 

 

Spudksi you are one of the fans who says Famara does not fit?? You hinted at something between Mark Ashton and Johnson concerning recruitment. So the football now is not planned isn't Mark Ashton job to also ensure it is with recruits?? 

[Robbored]

6 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

Spudksi you are one of the fans who says Famara does not fit?? You hinted at something between Mark Ashton and Johnson concerning recruitment. So the football now is not planned isn't Mark Ashton job to also ensure it is with recruits?? 

My understanding is that LJ and his coaches determine which player they’d like to persue and with his contacts in the game MA my have  his own recommendations.

He then enquires and goes after the player should he be available. He then does all the negotiating with the agents. That takes all the pressure off LJ. It seems to work fairly well..

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Those descriptions are not unique to Leeds and Derby. Pretty much all the top Championship teams play in a similar way.

Debatable.

Middlesbrough under Pulis certainly do not, far from a possession based side. WBA under Moore have a counterattacking edge that the others may not, they aren't a possession dominating side but better in possession than Pulis's Middlesbrough, Aston Villa under Bruce were not, under Smith perhaps they're moving that way. Sheffield United have a fairly unique identity- their back 3 really is excellent, attacking centre backs plus like to control the ball when possible.

Nottingham Forest under Karanka, good side who are technically sound but also can be quite cautious at times, Norwich are a ball playing, attacking side in a 4-2-3-1.

One thing most have in common is they like a lot of players in the centre- be it 4-3-3 or 4-1-4-1 variant or 3 at the back- again filling the central areas to control the ball, the space or a mix of the 2.

Of all those listed, simply by dint of past track record and levels, Bielsa jumps off the page the most simply because all his sides or pretty much all his sides have had his distinct style.

[spudski]

5 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

Spudksi you are one of the fans who says Famara does not fit?? You hinted at something between Mark Ashton and Johnson concerning recruitment. So the football now is not planned isn't Mark Ashton job to also ensure it is with recruits?? 

Like I said above...he doesn't fit with the high pressing game.

But I believe he was brought in to give strength in other departments, where LJ thought we were weak. Like at set pieces.

I believe we have planned to play a certain way...but certain players haven't been up to it. Whether that's poor recruitment or not, can be debated.

For example...Weimann was brought in to play up front...he started well...but has drifted. It didn't take long for him to be put out wider recently. His body language showed he wasn't happy...and imo, his performances have got worse.

Not everything will work out...with Taylor injured, Smith out, Adeluken out for while, Weimann off form, Pato and Pack off form,  the Odowda saga,  Walsh injured,  Watkins very average and Eisa not being played...it all goes toward 'indifferent' performances that have often been bastardised.

[steviestevieneville]

47 players in 3 years suggests poor recruitment 

[NickJ]

5 hours ago, Alessandro said:

You seem passionate about this ‘identity’ idea, that’s fine - but despite everything you write and how you dress it, you can’t answer me how we find ourselves where we are in this division despite LJ and MA ‘making it up’. 

That’s factually incorrect- in his previous post Cowshed explained the reason as being a level of financial support which is unprecedented in the past 30 years. 

That is the nub of the explanation why so many fans believe that Johnson is a wasted opportunity 

[RedLionLad]

9 hours ago, Robbored said:

Many years of water under the bridge since all that went down Cowshed. 

Still fresh in many people's memories though...

 

[WhistleHappy]

On ‎08‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 16:57, BobBobSuperBob said:

And award for cock of the week goes to......

...the fella with the massive Johnson. 

[Alessandro]

9 hours ago, Cowshed said:

I with all respects have answered why BCFC are in the division … Bristol City have the resources....to be where we are, a mid-table team.

In post 313 a poster highlights that identity can be put into place in months. The fundamentals really can. 

Agreed - when all the factors are right, absolutely. 

Unfortunately this is where Mr Robbored will not like my post.

If you look at identity and Mr Johnson own words in a tactical sense they do not make sense.  Identities - A model of play works in a methodical way. Mr Johnson is still at the storming stage. Mr Johnson is experimenting with Mr Lansdowns good grace and money. BCFC should be well beyond the stage of experimentation. Given LJ's and MA rhetoric the project should be in its norming stage where the improvements to this model of play are being progressed. 

It really depends on your definition of 'progressed' then. What do you want to see? I see as a layman, year on year progression. A building, on and off the pitch. Progression.

I see identity as something that will be developed, so what if it changes or even isn’t found yet?

Then opportunity, time and huge amounts of money could be looked upon as wasted. Your post is a contradiction you cannot develop what you do not have.  Mr Johnson clearly feels Bristol City have an identity, and MA proceeds down a meticulous process to seek players players with right dna to fit this vision. 

Oh so now we are back at "could" be wasted money. Football costs money. Football clubs lose money. Sorry, which championship teams are making money? Football is, but for a few, a waste of money. 

Again you go back to Fulham and Wolves. Fine clear intent. But clear intent is only good if you have the players to implement the clear intent successfully on the pitch right?

You with all respect miss the point again. It is Mr Johnson who has the intent. It does not take seasons and years to put his playing principles onto the park. His players his team out there .. Now.

Now, without wishing to sound condescending, it is you that is missing the point. The best coaching in the world doesn't automatically = the best football in the world. Because the coach works with what he has. Ultimately the coach sends out a human being onto the pitch, who despite the best preparation and training and principles may not, or doesn't always have the ability to consistently IMPLEMENT his training. 

Which brings me to the second way in which you miss the point, with all due respect. And this is why I refer to the 'whole picture' - you say it is "His players his team out there" as if the current squad is LJ's dream team. His ideal chosen players. Hell no they are not. They are the best available to him. Scenario:

LJ needs a forward and goes to MA - "here is my choice A. I also have choice B. If both those fail, choice C. Then also here is choice D and E, if needed". 

We end up with choice E. This is now "LJ's player" and he has to make the most of it. And fan's like you say, well you chose him, he is your signing, it's your team and judge the manager for it. Big picture.

Regarding Famara he was recruited at some cost and you feel he does fit the football. You are right he certainly did not fit the football played late 2017. Bristol Citys flag ship forward signing did not fit the football … Its a point beyond goals scored … A player was signed with serious limitation for the football … This is not meant to happen. 

Webster is a different proposition. Because the team has had a emphasis on playing through the third this player key qualities for the team needs fit adeptly. 

I used the word need. In the second and third the team needs alter frequently and significantly. Wing, wingless, one up top, two, direct/vertical, high tempo to feet its inconsistent and thus recruitment is scatter gun. If the teams football was less complex, there was less change recruitment would be better directed … And that goes right back to LJ and MA's own words on identity and recruitment.  

You are contradicting yourself here and despite me asking you twice, you cannot give me players names that contradict the recruitment policy. So your argument, despite rephrasing is losing weight. I've already said how the recruitment this summer was clearly planned and you seemed to agree and now you say "scatter gun" so somewhat contradictory. 

You talked about wider context - well I’d argue yearly progress is wider context. You could argue a huge amount of tiny over analysis by fans on here, on things like football identity .. You could. I would not.

The teams tactical identity is intrinsic to its real progression. 

FFWIW I agree our identity is somewhat unclear - but I refute statements like your previous "LJ and MA are making it up". You are still, despite me asking 3 times, unable to answer me, how, despite LJ and MA "making it up", footballing wise they are able to deliver progression in a league that is tougher than it has ever been, in a league where our spending is less than 10% of the overall league transfer spend.

Yes more money has been spent than ever before, but it's all about context. The view that we have spent millions therefore we should have success, is beyond naive. 

Yes, we've spent more than ever, (whilst at the same time selling more talent than ever) by BCFC's standards, but by the league's standards, by the national standards, it's a drop in a very big ocean.

Could a manager come in and get more from these players, yes probably. Maybe. But who would that be? All those who say LJ is not the right guy, who is? And while you're at it, to help pay for them and the extra recruitment, does anyone have suggestions to improve our revenue or investment?

No? No - we just want SL, the guy we continually slate, to dig into his savings again and plunge in another £100m - I mean because, what's that to him? 1% of his wealth? Cheap bastard. But how dare he appoint his son onto the board to accompany that cool £100m from nothing. 

 

 

[JamesBCFC]

4 hours ago, NickJ said:

That’s factually incorrect- in his previous post Cowshed explained the reason as being a level of financial support which is unprecedented in the past 30 years. 

That is the nub of the explanation why so many fans believe that Johnson is a wasted opportunity 

He's also manager during the time the market has been the most inflated it has been.

If you are bringing up the spending you have to acknowledge the fact the market has changed dramatically.

It's massively different to how it was 10 years ago, never mind 30 years ago.

[Alessandro]

9 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

He's also manager during the time the market has been the most inflated it has been.

If you are bringing up the spending you have to acknowledge the fact the market has changed dramatically.

It's massively different to how it was 10 years ago, never mind 30 years ago.

Plus the ever glossed over fact that we have sold, and will again sell, more of our best players than ever before. 

£10m is less than 10% of championship spending this year. Those who think that is a lot are still stuck in somewhere I don't even know where, 2007? 1997 when £1m was a lot for Soren Anderson? And people still baulk 20 years later at £1m.

[Cowshed]

11 hours ago, Alessandro said:

Agreed - when all the factors are right, absolutely

It really depends on your definition of 'progressed' then. What do you want to see? I see as a layman, year on year progression. A building, on and off the pitch. Progression.  

Oh so now we are back at "could" be wasted money. Football costs money. Football clubs lose money. Sorry, which championship teams are making money? Football is, but for a few, a waste of money. 

FFWIW I agree our identity is somewhat unclear - but I refute statements like your previous "LJ and MA are making it up". You are still, despite me asking 3 times, unable to answer me, how, despite LJ and MA "making it up", footballing wise they are able to deliver progression in a league that is tougher than it has ever been, in a league where our spending is less than 10% of the overall league transfer spend.

Yes more money has been spent than ever before, but it's all about context. The view that we have spent millions therefore we should have success, is beyond naive. 

Now, without wishing to sound condescending, it is you that is missing the point. The best coaching in the world doesn't automatically = the best football in the world. Because the coach works with what he has. Ultimately the coach sends out a human being onto the pitch, who despite the best preparation and training and principles may not, or doesn't always have the ability to consistently IMPLEMENT his training. 

Which brings me to the second way in which you miss the point, with all due respect. And this is why I refer to the 'whole picture' - you say it is "His players his team out there" as if the current squad is LJ's dream team. His ideal chosen players. Hell no they are not. They are the best available to him. Scenario:

Could a manager come in and get more from these players, yes probably. Maybe. But who would that be? All those who say LJ is not the right guy, who is? And while you're at it, to help pay for them and the extra recruitment, does anyone have suggestions to improve our revenue or investment? 

No? No - we just want SL, the guy we continually slate, to dig into his savings again and plunge in another £100m - I mean because, what's that to him? 1% of his wealth? Cheap bastard. But how dare he appoint his son onto the board to accompany that cool £100m from nothing. 

Your posting style is difficult to reply to but I have attempted to faithfully .. 

Your first point is odd. The factors are Mr Johnson has had tens of millions of pounds, years and time to define his football. You did not answer the point regarding storming and norming. Bristol City should not be in a continual state of experimentation. 

Your sole definition of progression is the team has more points. You are with all respect not looking at the wider context. Has the tactical identity of the team been formed, has that identity been progressed … In posts away from mine in this thread posters are stating it is a no, I clearly agree. In other posts individuals state Bristol City are boring/shape less/inconsistent/weak/lacking leaders … I agree again. Bristol City are tediously difficult to watch. Progress? No. Mr Johnson has had tens of millions of pounds, years and time to be above boring and inconsistent.

Your oh point … There have been championship clubs who have made money … But I do not understand your point as I have not indicated BCFC  should be. 

The best coaching the world does not automatically = the best football in the world. Yes. And coaching principles are harder to implement when a team frequently goes through change. BCFC's training changes if the teams football changes. This means that normal and planned macro cycles of training differ = Training is episodic. Episodic training is less effective it does not promote in depth learning, it is less likely to create conscious and sub conscious competency and so players cannot be the best prepared they can be.

Mr Johnson appears to be admirer of Pep Guardiola a man who many reckon is a bit of a coach. Mr Guardiola uses forms of tactical periodisation and its training principles, so does Mourinho again a man with coaching reputation … Mr Johnson cannot because he changes style so frequently.  Its not about the quality of the player its down to the methodical nature of the coach and his consistency.

Whole picture .. It is his players and it is his team. That vision is always a future game but the work to create it should be evident. That team is a reflection of his ideas, his vision now. 

Next point. No I gave an example of how recruitment in the case of Webster was well defined Mr Johnson clearly is committed to managing the football through the first third. I then explained that the football past the first third is not defined - Bristol City and the width the team plays with alters by the month. City can go from Wingers to Wingless … Sorry that is scattergun. And clubs can and do have transfer policies/strategies that mean recruitment fits the football philosophy - That goes again back to identity/model of play 

I have answered the point about your perception of progression. I have answered regarding making it up. This level of constant change is not planned as part of a long term focus, there is no identity/model of play … Yes it is unclear because its being made up. You may have difficulty with that but Coaches frequently have entire playing philosophies and detailed models of play that they use to meet challenges … Without these bigger pictures their actions can become reactive (making it up).

Yes more money had been spent. I have made no claim about success. 

Another Manager … Yes I agree. In regards to who that is defined by what Mr Lansdown and others (MA) want. On face value Lee Johnson looked like a modern progressive coach. He speaks like one but there is a disconnect as I point out between words and actions. Modern progressive coaches are used to put in place the identities, dna's, and help implement the coaching structures Lee Johnson talks about … If Bristol City and its Mr L again do not want that route then it could be a Manager that focusses on the short term and bugger the style. 

In your last paragraph. You are ranting. You might continually slate Mr Lansdown I do not. 

[Robbored]

Jeez, Cowshed........do you not know what succinctly means?   

And you complain about other posters rambling.

[Cowshed]

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Jeez, Cowshed........do you not know what succinctly means?   

And you complain about other posters rambling.

Yes I do know.

The poster asked multiple questions, made detailed multiple points and asked for clarification. I could have ignored these requests like you have a frequent tendency to, however I choose not to.  

In regards to identity .. Its clear many have differing views. Mine is its a model of play not merely a style … A point you struggle with when comparing BCFC - Man City.

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

 

And you complain about other posters rambling.

No I do not.

[BobBobSuperBob]

4 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Yes I do know.

The poster asked multiple questions, made detailed multiple points and asked for clarification. I could have ignored these requests like you have a frequent tendency to, however I choose not to.  

In regards to identity .. Its clear many have differing views. Mine is its a model of play not merely a style … A point you struggle with when comparing BCFC - Man City.

No I do not.

Don’t get sucked in or bother to argue or debate with the troll 

Hes bored because no one is playing , daily occurrence

 

Leave your posts and good / interesting debate to those who debate I’d suggest 

he’s not interested in , or capable of debating 

[Robbored]

13 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Yes I do know.

The poster asked multiple questions, made detailed multiple points and asked for clarification. 

If you feel you need to make detailed points/answers then perhaps using bullet points or even bracketed numbers would make your reply less like a dissertation.

[Cowshed]

12 minutes ago, Robbored said:

If you feel you need to make detailed points/answers then perhaps using bullet points or even bracketed numbers would make your reply less like a dissertation.

 

1. 
2. 
3. 

 

[Alessandro]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Your posting style is difficult to reply to but I have attempted to faithfully .. 

Apologies, it was a late evening reply, so rushed. I shall endeavour to be clearer in this reply

Your first point is odd. The factors are Mr Johnson has had tens of millions of pounds, years and time to define his football. You did not answer the point regarding storming and norming. Bristol City should not be in a continual state of experimentation. 

I have already agreed that there is confusion in LJ's football identity and have said before the 'changing to fit the opposition' leaves supporters bemused and players unclear of their jobs. I think it's an opinion that under LJ we are in a continual state of experimentation, a sliding rule argument perhaps, but for sure an area to improve over the rest of the season.

Your sole definition of progression is the team has more points. You are with all respect not looking at the wider context. Has the tactical identity of the team been formed, has that identity been progressed … In posts away from mine in this thread posters are stating it is a no, I clearly agree. In other posts individuals state Bristol City are boring/shape less/inconsistent/weak/lacking leaders … I agree again. Bristol City are tediously difficult to watch. Progress? No. Mr Johnson has had tens of millions of pounds, years and time to be above boring and inconsistent.

With all due respect, it seems to me that it is you not looking at the wider picture. Are you suggesting the measure of progress is defined by the footballing identity of a team? This is the only point you seem to be making, and returning to time and again. 

Last time I checked, there are no points for identity and style in football? Progress at a football club is measured in many factors, both on and off the pitch, is it not? With league position, ultimately being the most important, would not agree? If you disagree, that is your prerogative of course - perhaps footballing identity is the most important thing to you, as a fan. If you come to Ashton Gate to look for footballing identity, yes, you will be disappointed.

But from having watched every game his season, bar one or two, I have yet to be excited by any team's football, perhaps Leeds and WBA. In fact week after week I watch similarly 'boring' teams set up not to lose against us. I believe it is a championship-wide issue. The football on the whole, just isn't great. Boring and inconsistent wins the day, especially from the mid-table (of which we are one) and lower teams.

Your oh point … There have been championship clubs who have made money … But I do not understand your point as I have not indicated BCFC  should be. 

Just in reference to your many "wasted millions" comments - football is a waste of millions, merely staying afloat millions is wasted. 

The best coaching the world does not automatically = the best football in the world. Yes. And coaching principles are harder to implement when a team frequently goes through change. BCFC's training changes if the teams football changes. This means that normal and planned macro cycles of training differ = Training is episodic. Episodic training is less effective it does not promote in depth learning, it is less likely to create conscious and sub conscious competency and so players cannot be the best prepared they can be.

Agreed - consistency of training will promote a deeper cognitive absorption, key I would say for a football player. So if it is the case that BCFC's training patterns keep changing, that is not ideal. I don't know this to be the case though, and I suspect neither do you, beyond a hunch and what you see on match day? 

Mr Johnson appears to be admirer of Pep Guardiola a man who many reckon is a bit of a coach. Mr Guardiola uses forms of tactical periodisation and its training principles, so does Mourinho again a man with coaching reputation … Mr Johnson cannot because he changes style so frequently.  Its not about the quality of the player its down to the methodical nature of the coach and his consistency.

I don't agree that LJ changes his style so frequently. The style I believe has stayed fundamentally the same for his whole time here. It is the macro adjustments most games that I would agree sometimes cause issues. But to play with a bit more width one game and play with a bit less width another is hardly a change in style. If you see a weakness in your opposition, you attempt expose it. Unless you have the ability to impose your game on every team you play. We do not.

I do have to disagree with you last statement - you are talking in theory and that is not always reality. Pep could come and take an OTIB XI - train for a month on specific parameters, macro cycles, whatever other jargon one like's to use, and they could still go out and lose. You can be the most methodical and consistent teacher in the world, but the student (in this case footballer) still has to have the ability and mental attributes to assimilate and execute his or her training. Even more so when you consider in football, broken down to it's simplets form, as a player it's a 'battle' between you and your opposite number, a double human factor where anything can happen, regardless of preparation. 

Whole picture .. It is his players and it his team. That vision is always a future game but the work to create it should be evident. That team is a reflection of his ideas, his vision now. 

Agreed - but within the constraints of recruitment and availability any manager works under at any given club, right?

Next point. No I gave an example of how recruitment in the case of Webster was well defined Mr Johnson clearly is committed to managing the football through the first third. I then explained that the football past the first third is not defined - Bristol City and the width the team plays with alters by the month. City can go from Wingers to Wingless … Sorry that is scattergun. And clubs can and do have transfer policies/strategies that mean recruitment fits the football philosophy - That goes again back to identity/model of play 

See above -  for me you can keep, in theory, your footballing identity and make adjustments like whether to exploit the width or stay more compact on a game by game basis - without it having to be a scattergun approach as you say. 

That is I believe a third time you've said the transfer policy doesn't meet the footballing style and the third time haven't given a name of a player bought that now doesn't fit our changing style of play. Who are the player, in your opinion, who are the ones we've wasted millions on that no longer fit our style of play? 

I have answered the point about your perception of progression. I have answered regarding making it up. This level of constant change is not planned as part of a long term focus, there is no identity/model of play … Yes it is unclear because its being made up. You may have difficulty with that but Coaches frequently have entire playing philosophies and detailed models of play that they use to meet challenges … Without these bigger pictures their actions can become reactive (making it up).

Agree to disagree - I don't believe it is being made up and as i've already said, you don't survive in this league making it up. That is not to say that I believe everything they are doing is working, but I strongly believe you are not informed enough to back up a statement like "they are making it" and it does you, as an interesting poster, a disservice, in my opinion. Stick to facts. If I am wrong, as I said, and you have direct contact and this is not a conclusion made from the outside looking in, i'd be very interested to hear it from you - if you don't want to write it on the forum, please DM. 

Yes more money had been spent. I have made no claim about success. 

Another Manager … Yes I agree. In regards to who that is defined by what Mr Lansdown and others (MA) want. On face value Lee Johnson looked like a modern progressive coach. He speaks like one but there is a disconnect as I point out between words and actions. Modern progressive coaches are used to put in place the identities, dna's, and help implement the coaching structures Lee Johnson talks about … If Bristol City and its Mr L again do not want that route then it could be a Manager that focusses on the short term and bugger the style. 

In your last paragraph. You are ranting. You might continually slate Mr Lansdown I do not. 

The last paragraph did sound rather ranty, apologies. The post was a reply to you, but some of the points I was making, especially at the end, are not all aimed at you directly, more thoughts for the forum as a whole. 

 

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

I have already agreed that there is confusion in LJ's football identity and have said before the 'changing to fit the opposition' leaves supporters bemused and players unclear of their jobs. I think it's an opinion that under LJ we are in a continual state of experimentation, a sliding rule argument perhaps, but for sure an area to improve over the rest of the season.

I don't agree that LJ changes his style so frequently. The style I believe has stayed fundamentally the same for his whole time here. It is the macro adjustments most games that I would agree sometimes cause issues. But to play with a bit more width one game and play with a bit less width another is hardly a change in style. If you see a weakness in your opposition, you attempt expose it. Unless you have the ability to impose your game on every team you play. We do not.

 

I can see that you are putting though into your posts but the above is contradictory.

Below are two passing maps (source squawka).

They are both from last season. One v Cardiff. One v Wednesday. They are BCFC's. Fundamentally that is a team playing entirely differently weeks apart. 

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

But to play with a bit more width one game and play with a bit less width another is hardly a change in style.

I quoted a small part here because it is a change of style, and the different interactions between the main elements of play can (that's a can) significantly be affected.

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

Agreed - consistency of training will promote a deeper cognitive absorption, key I would say for a football player. So if it is the case that BCFC's training patterns keep changing, that is not ideal. I don't know this to be the case though, and I suspect neither do you, beyond a hunch and what you see on match day? 

The team using those passing patterns above will alter training to play that differently unless its sunday league.

 

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

I do have to disagree with you last statement - you are talking in theory and that is not always reality. Pep could come and take an OTIB XI - train for a month on specific parameters, macro cycles, whatever other jargon one like's to use, and they could still go out and lose. You can be the most methodical and consistent teacher in the world, but the student (in this case footballer) still has to have the ability and mental attributes to assimilate and execute his or her training. Even more so when you consider in football, broken down to it's simplets form, as a player it's a 'battle' between you and your opposite number, a double human factor where anything can happen, regardless of preparation. 

Yes its theoretical but also backed by evidence and common sense. If a team concentrates its energy one honing one style of football , recruiting to fit, training to fit its going to improve .. This may not mean it wins but its in a better position long term to meet challenges

Football is a battle and prepared and hardworking will beat equal talent and more if it is less prepared, less focussed and less motivated. A team moving through styles like the maps will be less prepared.

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

Agree to disagree - I don't believe it is being made up and as i've already said, you don't survive in this league making it up. That is not to say that I believe everything they are doing is working, but I strongly believe you are not informed enough to back up a statement like "they are making it" and it does you, as an interesting poster, a disservice, in my opinion. Stick to facts. If I am wrong, as I said, and you have direct contact and this is not a conclusion made from the outside looking in, i'd be very interested to hear it from you - if you don't want to write it on the forum, please DM.

Clubs do survive in leagues making it up,. They get rid of Managers in with new, in with new ideas and repeat and its finances that keep them afloat. That is not to say LJ Is not part of keeping BCFC in the league he obviously is, but finance is a huge huge factor. Clubs do go further by adopting models and strategy. City do not have that level of focussed strategy some (not all) clubs use. 

You highlighted Citys football late 2017 … Football minus the injured Famara. That football had a high degree of fortune to it. Its was not meticulously planned. It contained elements of making it up as the season went along.

Apologies as my post is all over the place … I am cutting and pasting on this occasion omitted answering some points.

[Sixtyseconds]

2 hours ago, Alessandro said:

But to play with a bit more width one game and play with a bit less width another is hardly a change in style.

What is it then?

Odowda does differently.

To 

Elliason.

Member that Ryan Kent?

Like a Toddler for Ashton Boys on a sugar rush. 

More width.

No passing.

 

[Three Lions]

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 11:59, Alessandro said:

OK i'll answer that, if you answer me two questions at the end - I believe what they want is a team of players comfortable on the ball, who can play out from the back, will have high energy levels and press when out of possession. 

 

Is that Famara Diedhious game?

[downendcity]

18 hours ago, Cowshed said:

 

 

Are these by Damian Hurst and do they come signed and framed?