We don’t score enough goals because..

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, DT The Optimist said:

352 and have players supplying Martin/Fam with service.. that means JD on LHS, and Hunt RHS...

While I have a fair bit of support for 3-5-2, assume you mean one of Martin/Diedhiou alongside Wells eg?

DaSilva on the left and Hunt on the right, certainly outlets.

I'm the opposition, playing a fairly modern but not totally unorthodox 4-3-3, in some cases even 4-2-3-1.

My attacking left back and one of my front 3- wide forward on the left, we can bypass or pin back say Hunt. 2 v 1, outlet reduced, initiative starts to slip.

My attacking right back and wide forward on the right. This pins back DaSilva.

Can we wrest back the advantage in CM? Maybe but 3 v 3, this can negate.

Our midfield are in duels, our wingbacks are negated or pinned back. 2 up top v 2 strikers, 2 v 2 but remember that key outlet has its hands full with the 2 v 1 further back, some strikers can create for themselves but can be quite difficult.

Because these wide forwards increasingly are comfortable switching in and out, even the 3 v 1 advantage at the back isn't so watertight.

With Mawson fit that would give opposition pause for thought, but without its hard to turn around quickly, to get the ball back out quickly and get the opposition scrambling back a bit.

Clearly 3-5-2 at higher levels, it can have variants, variants that help sides to turn the tables but unsure a typical side we can send out might.

[miketh2nd]

6 hours ago, Banjo Island said:

No crosses into box from the byline no threat from corners zero threat from feekicks no long range shots all in all watching city play its very diffulcult to understand what they do all week at failand

according to stats online  only Kalas has scored a headed goal this season! I'm not sure  if this is right? but it wouldn't surprise me.

As it doesn't have Cod's two assists although that was only this week just played.

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

While I have a fair bit of support for 3-5-2, assume you mean one of Martin/Diedhiou alongside Wells eg?

I’m gonna start by saying if I had the chance to pick a team with the players currently available, I’d probably go 352 and it would perm 2 out of 4 strikers together...possibly not Diedhiou and Semenyo as a first choice from the start, but I’d happily see:

• Diedhiou and Martin
• Diedhiou and Wells
• Martin and Wells
• Martin and Semenyo
• Wells and Semenyo

Diedhiou and Antoine perhaps more effective later in the game.

DaSilva on the left and Hunt on the right, certainly outlets.

the key for WBs is not to play too high when we are playing it around at the back...unless there’s a real chance to ping them early.  Against Reading, Hunt played too high, and it meant Richards never had to worry about Semenyo running the space in behind him.  Hunt, earlier this season was brilliant at dragging Iannou (Forest) short to give Wells the channel to run in-to-out and get us up the pitch.  Weimann also ran into these spaces too.  O’Dowda could offer that too.  Yesterday he ran in behind the CBs, but no reason he couldn’t do that down the sides.  Once in established phases of possession in the opposition half is where the WBs offer that extra man.

I'm the opposition, playing a fairly modern but not totally unorthodox 4-3-3, in some cases even 4-2-3-1.

My attacking left back and one of my front 3- wide forward on the left, we can bypass or pin back say Hunt. 2 v 1, outlet reduced, initiative starts to slip.

My attacking right back and wide forward on the right. This pins back DaSilva.

this is where you have to move the ball with tempo or get Kalas / Vyner to drive into midfield.  Against Brum yesterday (although we were playing 433) it was their runs forward that led to us creating the extra man in midfield, and ascendancy in the first half.  In effect you are describing the Boro game.  Vyner was the key to making Warnock change his midfield 3 press.  He almost broke it with a great pinged ball into Martin, then almost got in as the 3rd man run with Pato and Martin springing him, but he fouled the Boro player.  He then went into his shell.  One more run like that and Boro have a new problem to think about.

Can we wrest back the advantage in CM? Maybe but 3 v 3, this can negate.

As I said...Boro!

Our midfield are in duels, our wingbacks are negated or pinned back. 2 up top v 2 strikers, 2 v 2 but remember that key outlet has its hands full with the 2 v 1 further back, some strikers can create for themselves but can be quite difficult.

Our midfield have to be prepared to work in and out, rotating around to move the opposition midfield around, pick up on poor hand overs, create space through impatient markers.

Because these wide forwards increasingly are comfortable switching in and out, even the 3 v 1 advantage at the back isn't so watertight.

your issue is getting your wide forwards working with your central forward when you get the ball.  My issue is moving the ball in a controlled way but at tempo.

With Mawson fit that would give opposition pause for thought, but without its hard to turn around quickly, to get the ball back out quickly and get the opposition scrambling back a bit.

Yep, he’s been missed.  But if Hunt and Dasilva are happy to stay short, Vyner or Kalas drag a midfielder out or the full back inside.  It’s like everyone is on a big connected bungee....cause and effect.

Clearly 3-5-2 at higher levels, it can have variants, variants that help sides to turn the tables but unsure a typical side we can send out might.

But at the end of the day, whatever formation you play and against what formation can dictate how you execute, and if you don’t execute all formations break down.

I’m chipping in

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, miketh2nd said:

according to stats online  only Kalas has scored a headed goal this season! I'm not sure  if this is right? but it wouldn't surprise me.

As it doesn't have Cod's two assists although that was only this week just played.

Can’t recall the cup goals but Kalas’ header is the only one in the league, yes.

Think the second assist isn’t his because it went to Nagy via Wells’ poor touch, not sure if the first didn’t take a slight deflection?

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Can’t recall the cup goals but Kalas’ header is the only one in the league, yes.

Think the second assist isn’t his because it went to Nagy via Wells’ poor touch, not sure if the first didn’t take a slight deflection?

From an assist point of view, Callum doesn’t get either, if you go by BBC, who gave the second to Wells.  Wyscout gives Callum 1 assist, the 1st one, but nothing to Wells.

BBC don’t give assists for deflections....Martin didn’t get the one at Forest for his ball to Weimann.

[miketh2nd]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Can’t recall the cup goals but Kalas’ header is the only one in the league, yes.

Think the second assist isn’t his because it went to Nagy via Wells’ poor touch, not sure if the first didn’t take a slight deflection?

ahh yes good point so not directly his assist but wow just the one headed goal in 15 league games.

[BBlockExile]

The stale wind of lack of ambition blows around Ashton Gate and has done for a few years now.

 

[RedRock]

We are slow, ponderous and hesitant. As per LJ times.

Even when the ball is rarely played in front of a player it lands at his feet. We don’t play the ball a metre or so in front. Consequence is the opposition defensive unit  closes space down and the likes of Wells, when he is used in his correct position, is man-marked with no free space to play the ball. 

We also have no discernible pattern of attacking play, no attacking partnerships and neither wingers or a powerful attacking central midfielder who can unsettle defences and create spaces for the forwards.

Apart from that, we’re fine. 

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, RedRock said:

We are slow, ponderous and hesitant. As per LJ times.

Even when the ball is rarely played in front of a player it lands at his feet. We don’t play the ball a metre or so in front. Consequence is the opposition defensive unit  closes space down and the likes of Wells, when he is used in his correct position, is man-marked with no free space to play the ball. 

We also have no discernible pattern of attacking play, no attacking partnerships and neither wingers or a powerful attacking central midfielder who can unsettle defences and create spaces for the forwards.

Apart from that, we’re fine. 

That was the thing that used to bug me about Flint and Baker....that was eradicated by Kalas and Webster....and demonstrated well again by Mawson > Vyner before he got injured.  Kalas and Vyner are getting there, but you are right, too many passes lose momentum.

[RedRock]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That was the thing that used to bug me about Flint and Baker....that was eradicated by Kalas and Webster....and demonstrated again by Mawson > Vyner before he got injured.  Kalas and Vyner are getting there, but you are right, too many passes lose momentum.

For me, it’s not just the central pairing,  the malaise effects the entire defence and midfield.

Life is far too comfortable for the opposition. If their defence is well-drilled our threat is negligible from open play.

Question is are we playing ‘safe’ and being overly-cautious through lack of talent, lack of confidence or are players playing to instruction? 

[Davefevs]

31 minutes ago, RedRock said:

For me, it’s not just the central pairing,  the malaise effects the entire defence and midfield.

Life is far too comfortable for the opposition. If their defence is well-drilled our threat is negligible from open play.

Question is are we playing ‘safe’ and being overly-cautious through lack of talent, lack of confidence or are players playing to instruction? 

I know, I know....it’s just that often these guys are passing with little pressure on them and it stands out every time they have to go back to collect the ball.

[ProfitInMyPocket]

You could have 3 creative midfielders in the middle but if we are set up to play in front of teams then we ain't going to put teams on the back foot simple as.

Bannan is this team wouldn't make a difference as when we get the ball we don't do anything with it and play it backways and sideways. 

No-one runs off the ball.

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, ProfitInMyPocket said:

You could have 3 creative midfielders in the middle but if we are set up to play in front of teams then we ain't going to put teams on the back foot simple as.

Bannan is this team wouldn't make a difference as when we get the ball we don't do anything with it and play it backways and sideways. 

No-one runs off the ball.

@Robboredyou hacked someone’s account?

[Robbored]

53 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@Robboredyou hacked someone’s account?

You can joke all you like Fevs but BB would make a difference to Citys creativity. 

If he ever signed for us ( unlikely.......) his influence would begin at Failand and it would down to Deano, Simmo and Downo to utilise his undoubted skills.
 

 

[Son of Fred]

11 hours ago, RedRock said:

For me, it’s not just the central pairing,  the malaise effects the entire defence and midfield.

Life is far too comfortable for the opposition. If their defence is well-drilled our threat is negligible from open play.

Question is are we playing ‘safe’ and being overly-cautious through lack of talent, lack of confidence or are players playing to instruction? 

In Dean's own words we're making sure we "stay in games",,,which to me is clearly cautious intent from the outset..

Think in fairness this is likely down to the numbers unavailable for selection.

My gut says we're about to taste our first back to back defeats so it'll be interesting to see how the 'three amigo's react.. 

[Davefevs]

43 minutes ago, Robbored said:

You can joke all you like Fevs but BB would make a difference to Citys creativity. 

If he ever signed for us ( unlikely.......) his influence would begin at Failand and it would down to Deano, Simmo and Downo to utilise his undoubted skills.
 

 

Maybe.  I think he’s a good player, but I don’t think he’s as great as many make out.  It’s not like Wednesday haven’t had good players around him and up front.  He plays well against us....until....our head-coach decided to do something about this season, rather than allow him to have free reign of AG, like the previous head-coach did.  I think LJ saw himself in BB, even though very different types of player...almost a justification for being a small midfielder.  But that’s my cynical view taking over there!

Ive seen enough of him for Wednesday against other opponents to see he doesn’t quite run as many games as people think he does.

Hes a good player as I said, and I’m sure he’d improve us, but not by much, and not at £40k per week (allegedly).

[Clutton Caveman]

First the positives

This year at least we seem to have a plan that players understand and try to apply

However, whilst it is clear to see the method and approach when the opposition have the ball, we seem to be our old selves when we get possession and turn to an ad-hoc style.

Yes Martin holds the ball well but when he does there is no pattern to support or run past him. We rarely create overloads our wide etc.

We seem to just pass the ball around and hope something happens

Few of our goals recently could be described as a flowing move or even a set piece from the training ground.

QPR are our exact opposite. They have so much movement and method when attacking it is great to watch, but let themselves down with defending.

When DH took over we were demotivated, confused and without any direction.

Everybody says when you take over an under performing team, you first stop conceding goals and then build on that.

I think this is where we are.

Dean struggles to find a formation that is tight at the back but creates chances up front. I think this is partly due to many of our players still carrying the "play it safe" mantra from past years. Jay DaSilva clearly can beat a man but rarely tries it. COD can beat a man with pace but tends to go down blind alleys (perhaps because few passing options open up. One thing is for sure, we don't have pass across our team to create panic.

My concern is, within our coaching team do we have the flair coach? 

Looking at our set pieces etc I would say no

 

 

[Davefevs]

56 minutes ago, Clutton Caveman said:

First the positives

This year at least we seem to have a plan that players understand and try to apply

However, whilst it is clear to see the method and approach when the opposition have the ball

do you think that has changed from the first 6 or 7 games?  We weren’t a full press early season, but we did press.  Now we are about getting behind the ball.  A marked change in my book.

, we seem to be our old selves when we get possession and turn to an ad-hoc style.

agree, We look very different in possession over the past 4,5,6 games than we did early season?

Yes Martin holds the ball well but when he does there is no pattern to support or run past him. We rarely create overloads our wide etc.

I posted yesterday that our attacks are scattergun, perhaps random is a better word.  Early season I saw clear patterns of play...called some of them out in my previews.  They’ve disappeared of late.

We seem to just pass the ball around and hope something happens

we are comfortable passing it around the back, and into midfield - but only if that is to give it straight back to the defender, e.g. a give and go with no real purpose.  Earlier this season that would be the springboard to Pato or Weimann finding space as the 3rd man run, and we would then have broken the lines.  We now only break the lines through individuality, hence the lack of structure to our attacks once the defenders have stopped their side to side passing.  On Saturday it was Kalas or Vyner trying to break the lines, but that was only breaking the first line (forwards and midfield), not getting into those key spaces between Brum’s midfield and defence.

Few of our goals recently could be described as a flowing move or even a set piece from the training ground.

Agree, breakaway type goals...Nagy’s v QPR from Cod intercepting.  You have to go back to Barnsley, probably Forest to see well-worked goals from established possession phases.

QPR are our exact opposite. They have so much movement and method when attacking it is great to watch, but let themselves down with defending.

Yes, although I’d argue that we were masters of our own downfall, with putting it bluntly a pathetic front 6 press of individuals, rather than working in 2s and 3s.

When DH took over we were demotivated, confused and without any direction.

Everybody says when you take over an under performing team, you first stop conceding goals and then build on that.

I think this is where we are.

I think he established principles as a caretaker, took them into the early weeks of the season, then has regressed, partly due to injuries, COVID etc.  That’s not trying to give him an excuse.  The key is that with a couple of players back, he now has flexibility to get back to the way we started the season.  I’ve been impressed with Holden (but he’s been far from perfect), but this is his first big test.  I’m hoping he’s realised he’s gone away from his principles, and can return to them.  If he doesn’t I will question whether they were indeed his principles....I believe they were from what he told us.  But it’s wait and see.

Dean struggles to find a formation that is tight at the back but creates chances up front.

he had that balance earlier this season.  Despite many moaning we had too many “forwards” playing we were tight out of possession.

I think this is partly due to many of our players still carrying the "play it safe" mantra from past years.

confidence and momentum play a part, but if you don’t play as a team, individuals open cracks.

Jay DaSilva clearly can beat a man but rarely tries it. COD can beat a man with pace but tends to go down blind alleys (perhaps because few passing options open up. One thing is for sure, we don't have pass across our team to create panic.

My concern is, within our coaching team do we have the flair coach?

I think there is flair there, but flair is often linked to individual skill....and I think it is individual skill as the only component we have.  If you go back to our goals versus Forest they typified a possession based attack where people knew where everyone was, how to create the overload and space.  It wasn’t really with flair, but with slick execution.  Rowe pinged into Martin, lays it off first time to Pato, who plays it back to the advanced Martin first time.  Martin back to Pato, who switches it to Hunt.  Hunt crosses to Martin, who nods it back to Wells - goal.  Didn’t require flair, but good cohesive touches and movement.  Fam’s goal v Derby was good, but not from established possession, but from getting a loose ball, and Pato providing the flair with a reverse pass to Semenyo.

Looking at our set pieces etc I would say no

Ultimately I think you can break the first 16 games into two blocks of 8 and see marked differences.  The current 8 game block, on the whole hasn’t been anywhere near as good as the first 8.  The game runs are First 8 W4 D2 L2 / Second 8 W4 D1 L3.  

 

 

 

[Dunc]

On 06/12/2020 at 06:53, Fordy62 said:

Not much has changed under Holden, which isn’t a great surprise. Don’t get me wrong, I think he’s done an adequate job in terms of results, but will much change when you appoint a number two when the bulk of their experience is under the bloke who’s just been sacked?

We had a chance with Cook, we didn’t take it. 

While I agree with you, most fans wanted Hughton and he was the other person we were clearly talking to. Cook never seemed like he was seriously in the running. I was and remain cautiously optimistic about Holden (admittedly after the first few games), but a bit like Johnson, he doesn't seem to know his best formation or team. I know it's horses for courses, but personally really hope he picks and backs Bakinson. He certainly won't do a worse job than Brunt and it'll really help his development 

[Fordy62]

1 minute ago, Dunc said:

While I agree with you, most fans wanted Hughton and he was the other person we were clearly talking to. Cook never seemed like he was seriously in the running. I was and remain cautiously optimistic about Holden (admittedly after the first few games), but a bit like Johnson, he doesn't seem to know his best formation or team. I know it's horses for courses, but personally really hope he picks and backs Bakinson. He certainly won't do a worse job than Brunt and it'll really help his development 

Definitely agreed re Bakinson. He looked like he had an urgency to play the killer pass that we haven’t seen since he got covid. I strongly suspect that he’ll be in the team for Blackburn. 

[Dunc]

1 minute ago, Fordy62 said:

Definitely agreed re Bakinson. He looked like he had an urgency to play the killer pass that we haven’t seen since he got covid. I strongly suspect that he’ll be in the team for Blackburn. 

Let's hope so! He just looked so good defensively breaking up play and moving the ball forward quickly. Seems miles better than Brunt in both departments. If we are going to play 4-3-3 I still lament losing Eliasson. Whatever the formation or shape we need Wells between the width of the 18 yard box not out wide 

[grifty]

I think our problem comes from the fact that no-one can make a 5 yard pass in our team. Every pass is either a foot behind the person they play it to, drilled in shin high or a pass to someone heavily marked.

Our favourite ball seems to be from our right centre back to Dasilva, but a touch behind him. This means he has to turn 45 degrees back towards our goal to collect the ball and shift it to his stronger left foot. The opposition puts him under pressure and as. he's already facing that way he has no option to pass back to the centre back or goalie. The few times this hasn't happened is when Rowe has played inside him and the natural curve of a left footed pass allows Dasilve to receive the ball on the move on his stronger foot where he able to attack the opposition.

Another thing is simple retention of the ball. Very rarely does a header we win (whether challenged or not) goes to one of our players. Communication may be a thing here. There were two occasions I can remember v Birmingham where their centre backs had cleared the ball high to our centre backs. One time was Vyner, I think the other was Brunt, there was no-one near them within around 20 yards. Simple chest, foot. control, or even leave it to bounce through to Bentley could have been done, however both of them headed the ball back towards the centre circle where Birmingham picked the ball up.

[Sturny]

41 minutes ago, grifty said:

I think our problem comes from the fact that no-one can make a 5 yard pass in our team. Every pass is either a foot behind the person they play it to, drilled in shin high or a pass to someone heavily marked.

Our favourite ball seems to be from our right centre back to Dasilva, but a touch behind him. This means he has to turn 45 degrees back towards our goal to collect the ball and shift it to his stronger left foot. The opposition puts him under pressure and as. he's already facing that way he has no option to pass back to the centre back or goalie. The few times this hasn't happened is when Rowe has played inside him and the natural curve of a left footed pass allows Dasilve to receive the ball on the move on his stronger foot where he able to attack the opposition.

Another thing is simple retention of the ball. Very rarely does a header we win (whether challenged or not) goes to one of our players. Communication may be a thing here. There were two occasions I can remember v Birmingham where their centre backs had cleared the ball high to our centre backs. One time was Vyner, I think the other was Brunt, there was no-one near them within around 20 yards. Simple chest, foot. control, or even leave it to bounce through to Bentley could have been done, however both of them headed the ball back towards the centre circle where Birmingham picked the ball up.

Yup, we don't look like we have much of a natural flow when moving the ball forward. I think when we are in key positons near the box we do enough/okay but from what I've seen when it comes to running in the middle it can look awkward or slow on the release. I'm not totally convinced it's the quality we're lacking, just need to click better. 

[Banjo Island]

16 hours ago, BBlockExile said:

The stale wind of lack of ambition blows around Ashton Gate and has done for a few years now.

 

Not a breath of fresh air then

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 06/12/2020 at 19:59, Davefevs said:

I’m chipping in

While I have a fair bit of support for 3-5-2, assume you mean one of Martin/Diedhiou alongside Wells eg?

I’m gonna start by saying if I had the chance to pick a team with the players currently available, I’d probably go 352 and it would perm 2 out of 4 strikers together...possibly not Diedhiou and Semenyo as a first choice from the start, but I’d happily see:

• Diedhiou and Martin
• Diedhiou and Wells
• Martin and Wells
• Martin and Semenyo
• Wells and Semenyo

Diedhiou and Antoine perhaps more effective later in the game.

DaSilva on the left and Hunt on the right, certainly outlets.

the key for WBs is not to play too high when we are playing it around at the back...unless there’s a real chance to ping them early.  Against Reading, Hunt played too high, and it meant Richards never had to worry about Semenyo running the space in behind him.  Hunt, earlier this season was brilliant at dragging Iannou (Forest) short to give Wells the channel to run in-to-out and get us up the pitch.  Weimann also ran into these spaces too.  O’Dowda could offer that too.  Yesterday he ran in behind the CBs, but no reason he couldn’t do that down the sides.  Once in established phases of possession in the opposition half is where the WBs offer that extra man.

I'm the opposition, playing a fairly modern but not totally unorthodox 4-3-3, in some cases even 4-2-3-1.

My attacking left back and one of my front 3- wide forward on the left, we can bypass or pin back say Hunt. 2 v 1, outlet reduced, initiative starts to slip.

My attacking right back and wide forward on the right. This pins back DaSilva.

this is where you have to move the ball with tempo or get Kalas / Vyner to drive into midfield.  Against Brum yesterday (although we were playing 433) it was their runs forward that led to us creating the extra man in midfield, and ascendancy in the first half.  In effect you are describing the Boro game.  Vyner was the key to making Warnock change his midfield 3 press.  He almost broke it with a great pinged ball into Martin, then almost got in as the 3rd man run with Pato and Martin springing him, but he fouled the Boro player.  He then went into his shell.  One more run like that and Boro have a new problem to think about.

Can we wrest back the advantage in CM? Maybe but 3 v 3, this can negate.

As I said...Boro!

Our midfield are in duels, our wingbacks are negated or pinned back. 2 up top v 2 strikers, 2 v 2 but remember that key outlet has its hands full with the 2 v 1 further back, some strikers can create for themselves but can be quite difficult.

Our midfield have to be prepared to work in and out, rotating around to move the opposition midfield around, pick up on poor hand overs, create space through impatient markers.

Because these wide forwards increasingly are comfortable switching in and out, even the 3 v 1 advantage at the back isn't so watertight.

your issue is getting your wide forwards working with your central forward when you get the ball.  My issue is moving the ball in a controlled way but at tempo.

With Mawson fit that would give opposition pause for thought, but without its hard to turn around quickly, to get the ball back out quickly and get the opposition scrambling back a bit.

Yep, he’s been missed.  But if Hunt and Dasilva are happy to stay short, Vyner or Kalas drag a midfielder out or the full back inside.  It’s like everyone is on a big connected bungee....cause and effect.

Clearly 3-5-2 at higher levels, it can have variants, variants that help sides to turn the tables but unsure a typical side we can send out might.

But at the end of the day, whatever formation you play and against what formation can dictate how you execute, and if you don’t execute all formations break down.

I'd be interested in Martin and Semenyo- energy and ability to pull wide with 1, pivot with the 2nd- both quite good technically. For similar reasons I'd have been interested in Martin and Weimann for some games, pre Weimann injury, though him and Semenyo do differ of course..

That's true. I worry about it vs 4-3-3 though, as in pure 4-3-3 with wide forwards able to go in and out. Nottingham Forest had a bit more of a 4-2-3-1- Sammy Ameobi was his cover. Had somewhat less in the way of injuries too then, we did. Weimann and Paterson in CM- though not my first choice, given CM is't their natural position, they are/were players who could help to prevent the overload going against us- both able to pull central and wide for one. We also had to absorb plenty of pressure 2nd half, but we did.

Agreed. Kalas went over halfway a couple of times for a start. I think he has it in his locker, he can carry it over halfway- pre Mawson and indeed pre Vyner's emergence, my first choice for a medium to high line was Kalas and Moore in a back 4- Vyner is also showing good signs.

Agreed though, if one of our CBs can either carry it forward helping to outnumber or ping it forward once in a while like Mawson in particular, that gives the opposition a new problem to think about!

Agreed.

Agreed- think certain midfielders better suited to it than others though, that's the issue. Brownhill would have been very good at it, O'Dowda can be- Paterson and Weimann despite my reservations certainly had that capability- in and out, central and wider.

Agreed- some better suited than others. For example, I said it early in the season but e.g. Brentford's BMW last season- that combined with full backs, especially Henry getting forward would cause significant tactical problems to deal with! Maybe a bit less now with two gone, for all of Toney's excellence. Blackburn could be similar- Brereton is neither a pure wide man or a pure CM, Armstrong I think is of course a striker but can pull a bit wider, Elliott I know little about but he seems quite talented, Gallagher I've always associated as fairly central but he has shown he can pull wider- I expect a very difficult game tomorrow. Indeed Brereton didn't even play Saturday, he is finally starting to repay some of the fee there but tactically I think their front 3, combined with full backs could be problematic.

Stay short, how do you mean? Short distances? Narrower as well- think DaSilva is more suited to that than Hunt, Sessegnon though he has come inside before perhaps more so- Vyner I think could pull right with Hunt a bot narrower, or in a more conservative shape perhaps Mariappa- Sessegnon though might have given us something different.

Agreed.

One alternative I've seen, albeit in foreign Leagues might be:

Bentley

Back 3

Wing backs, 2 CM

Paterson

Two wide forwards.

If both fit, you could have Weimann right, Semenyo left- think of it as a strikerless 3-4-1-2. They're forwards but they're not necessarily a central pivot- though they have that capability but also wide out of possession albeit pressing high. That would cause the opposition a new set of problems, not least as there is no central pivot as such. I think Wolves may have done it once or twice in 2017.18 as well, when they had a front 3 or a nominal front 3 of Jota, Costa and Cavaleiro.

[ExiledAjax]

"His analysts have worked out..." champagne for the analysts boys!

Ok, now work out how those successful teams manage to score 90+ goals a season. We had a whole thread on here about this a few months back. 

I'd start by suggesting that if a team has, for the past year and bit, been scoring with roughly 1 in every 8 shots at goal, that team should be shooting at goal at least 16 times per game.

Likewise if that team has, again for the past year and a bit, been scoring with roughly every 3rd shot on target, that team should, if it is seriously aiming for 2 goals per game, be trying to generate more than 3 shots on target per game. Maybe aim for 6?

Did he look at the fact that a top four team tends to average 15 shots, 5 of which go on target, every game. So far this season we are on 10 shots, 3 of which go on target. So we're way off that particular statistical pace, and pretty much where we were last term.

Wonder if the analysts have told him this?

[downendcity]

On 06/12/2020 at 23:08, RedRock said:

We are slow, ponderous and hesitant. As per LJ times.

Even when the ball is rarely played in front of a player it lands at his feet. We don’t play the ball a metre or so in front. Consequence is the opposition defensive unit  closes space down and the likes of Wells, when he is used in his correct position, is man-marked with no free space to play the ball. 

We also have no discernible pattern of attacking play, no attacking partnerships and neither wingers or a powerful attacking central midfielder who can unsettle defences and create spaces for the forwards.

Apart from that, we’re fine. 

The prevailing attitude (from LJs time) seems to be that we play more concerned about not making a mistake than making something happen. 

I think it is this mentality that causes us to get off to "a slow start" in games, rather than starting on the front foot. 

DH has been sideswiped with injuries and there is little doubt that this has impacted on selections. It could  well be the case that Walsh & /or Williams can provide the creative spark when they eventually return. However that will be wasted if there is still a cautionary attitude in other players. 

 

[Davefevs]

@Mr Popodopolous re “staying short”....I meant stay deep (short was a crap word ), e.g. not get too far forward too early, as it opens up space, either to move into, or stuck their fullback forward to create space in behind.

[Harry]

3 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

"His analysts have worked out..." champagne for the analysts boys!

Ok, now work out how those successful teams manage to score 90+ goals a season. We had a whole thread on here about this a few months back. 

I'd start by suggesting that if a team has, for the past year and bit, been scoring with roughly 1 in every 8 shots at goal, that team should be shooting at goal at least 16 times per game.

Likewise if that team has, again for the past year and a bit, been scoring with roughly every 3rd shot on target, that team should, if it is seriously aiming for 2 goals per game, be trying to generate more than 3 shots on target per game. Maybe aim for 6?

Did he look at the fact that a top four team tends to average 15 shots, 5 of which go on target, every game. So far this season we are on 10 shots, 3 of which go on target. So we're way off that particular statistical pace, and pretty much where we were last term.

Wonder if the analysts have told him this?

Ha ha. This is just mental. 
So our ‘analysts’ have been busy working out how many goals teams score to go up. 

They needn’t have bothered. Simple rule of football - if you score more than the other team, you win the game. 
 

Hopefully this futile effort hadn’t wasted any of their time doing ‘proper’ analytical work. 
 

I’ve just analysed every season since 1907. My conclusion - Kick it in the goal. 

[Davefevs]

20 minutes ago, Harry said:

Ha ha. This is just mental. 
So our ‘analysts’ have been busy working out how many goals teams score to go up. 

They needn’t have bothered. Simple rule of football - if you score more than the other team, you win the game. 
 

Hopefully this futile effort hadn’t wasted any of their time doing ‘proper’ analytical work. 
 

I’ve just analysed every season since 1907. My conclusion - Kick it in the goal. 

I get the “aspiration”.......but it’s hardly the saber-mathematicians from money all is it.

I might pitch them my “points per player” model I’ve been working on.  That could literally blow their minds.