The bigger picture

[Alessandro]

SL needs to implement 4 simple steps:

1) Step back from making day to day decisions on the footballing side.

2) Mark Ashton needs (if staying) to step sideways to focus on finance and not recruitment.

3) Employ a DOF who can work alongside a head coach to implement and oversee all aspects of recruitment, scouting, coaching, development, training, academy etc.

4) Hire the best qualified people he can afford in that DOF and head coach role.

Years of underachieving has taught us when SL meddles on the footballing side, it usually goes wrong. 

Several years of MA recruitment has shown a lack of strategy and success - the whole system propped up by academy players and those here before his time.

 

If those two get out of the way of their egos and our daily football business, we could achieve something big in BS3.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Alessandro said:

SL needs to implement 4 simple steps:

1) Step back from making day to day decisions on the footballing side.

2) Mark Ashton needs (if staying) to step sideways to focus on finance and not recruitment. And cut his salary appropriately, so that he ####s off

3) Employ a DOF who can work alongside a head coach to implement and oversee all aspects of recruitment, scouting, coaching, development, training, academy etc.

4) Hire the best qualified people he can afford in that DOF and head coach role.

Years of underachieving has taught us when SL meddles on the footballing side, it usually goes wrong. 

Several years of MA recruitment has shown a lack of strategy and success - the whole system propped up by academy players and those here before his time.

 

If those two get out of the way of their egos and our daily football business, we could achieve something big in BS3.

[lenred]

41 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

Why come out on national radio stating we want premier league football , breath of fresh air blah blah blah then. You state Pompey / Hull but what about Leicester or Southampton as examples. We could of been better off with a different owner . It’s very much a rovers trait to just accept things and not challenge. With the money he’s invested , it could/should be so much better

This ‘Hull, Pompey’ are having a nightmare argument always makes me laugh.  Give me the journey that they’ve been on over the last 15 years over our comparatively dull existence any day of the week. They are even near top of League 1 now and no doubt will be up level with us again soon enough! 

[marmite]

My opinion for what its worth,  is that the club have taken the wrong route with coaches/managers for many years. We have a tremendous acadamy which is well run and turns out a succession of promising youngsters. This is one of SLs best achievments and imo where the club starts losing the plot. These youngsters go out on loan and return to the club with league experience and ready to begin stepping up to the first team. What happens next? The club go out and buy/loan journeymen players instead of trying our younger players. We then end up with a squad of 25/30 players to pick from and its the youngters that are shunned. Instead of paying out millions for these older pros, spend a few bob more on an experienced coach with the remit that he uses the acadamy to our advantage and our advantage only. Employing expensive journeymen players but cheap option coaches isnt working for us. The present squad is made up of good individual players who cannot form a team. The kids are only playing now because of injuries but they are under pressure because they dont play together much. If MA has to stay then his job should not affect the playing side. He should only be involved in the team when the coach asks him to negotiate, it shouldnt be MA who decides what we need. Follow the rugby mantle and get a top coach, tell him to use the acadamy, tell MA to back off, and see where it takes us. We need a new direction imo.

[bexhill reds]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Put it this way, if SL replaced MA with one CEO on £300k and one DoF on £240k (or any split of £540k you want to), I think we would make better corporate and football decisions.  You wouldn’t have conflicts of interest for starters.  You could have proper accountabilities.  A structure / reporting line of CEO > Head-Coach is a poor structure imho.

Out of likes, but this is spot on. Whilst we can speculate that Ashton does has the football business acumen he suggests he does (negotiating deals etc), his having a direct line on the sporting side is perhaps less helpful, does the head coach really call the shots on the recruitment and playing side as the club suggests?

[Bris Red]

3 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

SL needs to implement 4 simple steps:

1) Step back from making day to day decisions on the footballing side.

2) Mark Ashton needs (if staying) to step sideways to focus on finance and not recruitment.

3) Employ a DOF who can work alongside a head coach to implement and oversee all aspects of recruitment, scouting, coaching, development, training, academy etc.

4) Hire the best qualified people he can afford in that DOF and head coach role.

Years of underachieving has taught us when SL meddles on the footballing side, it usually goes wrong. 

Several years of MA recruitment has shown a lack of strategy and success - the whole system propped up by academy players and those here before his time.

 

If those two get out of the way of their egos and our daily football business, we could achieve something big in BS3.

Im running out of likes today. Its scary absolutely terrifying in fact that SO MANY people on here can not just see the problem but genuinely offer solutions yet the people running this club cannot.

[Alessandro]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

I’d be happy to have Ashton here, but not in his current role.

It’s not working on the footballing side. Finance side, commercial side, dealing with contracts and selling players, fine.

But heavy handed in transfers, choosing all the physio staff, dictating policy, sat in post match de-briefs with the manager....no. It’s not working.

Is he capable of doing that? I’m not sure.

[Selred]

To be fair we have been saying for years the club lacked a football man on the board. That's what Ashton has brought. 

However Ashton has got too much control, and in fields he isn't good in such as player recruitment. I think Ashton could be great if he just handled the deals, but we need a director of football next to him to help with recruitment, style of play etc. Then having coaches like Holden and LJ would make sense. 

[Davefevs]

How many of us have said - Director of Football since LJ came in?  Basically SL has employed a bloke who hasn’t got the breadth of skills to cover that part of the remit.

[BigTone]

24 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Put it this way, if SL replaced MA with one CEO on £300k and one DoF on £240k (or any split of £540k you want to), I think we would make better corporate and football decisions.  You wouldn’t have conflicts of interest for starters.  You could have proper accountabilities.  A structure / reporting line of CEO > Head-Coach is a poor structure imho.

All very well Daffyd but 2 people instead of one does bring extra costs to the club:

Coffee, Tea, Milk, Bog roll etc etc. Everything costs money !!

 

[Kid in the Riot]

26 minutes ago, Alex_BCFC said:

I don't think he has made any mistakes in terms of managers for a while now (1).  And I think in general the recruitment is very good - I'm certainly not moaning at a lot of the players that have come in over the last 5 or 6 years (Kalas, Mawson, Dasilva, Fammy etc). Mistakes have been made but every football club will have this.

I would be interested to know how much a lot of clubs have spent as the figures in football don't really mean too much these days. You can spend 100m and get nowhere quite easily. Undoubtedly teams have done better than us and some have done worse (2). Room for improvement definitely.

(1) Let's remove Cotterill who was a Dawe pick. Our last six managers have been: Holden, Johnson, SOD, McInnes, Millen, Coppell. I can spot more than a few mistakes in amongst that lot. 

(2) Name them.

[pillred]

36 minutes ago, Mr Chappers said:

Would have thought that with Covid, no supporter income since Mar 20, no certainty of income over the next 12 months, and a truly awful injury crisis, time to cut some slack. Outside the PL, pretty sure some Clubs will be in a massive mess. Time to be grateful for what we have.

But watching Attack of the killer Tomatoes in the posh seats at the Odeon doesn't make it Oscar worthy and that's how I feel about city at the moment lovely ground great view terrible product.

[Alex_BCFC]

Just now, Kid in the Riot said:

(1) Let's remove Cotterill who was a Dawe pick. Our last six managers have been: Holden, Johnson, SOD, McInnes, Millen, Coppell. I can spot more than a few mistakes in amongst that lot. 

(2) Name them.

I think I said in the last 5 or 6 years the appointments have been good in terms of moving us up the football league so yes we know there were mistakes before that. Although I do think in theory Coppell and SOD were good appointments on paper.

I haven't got any figures to hand but I suspect in the last few years Sheff Wed, Cardiff, Huddersfield, Stoke, Forest, Birmingham, Reading, Boro etc would all feature on the list that have spent a lot of money of transfers and wages without going up. Some will have had parachute payments to aid this, some not. No idea on net spends as some like us will have sold a lot of offset this. If I'm wrong and we have spent way more than anyone else and not gone up in the last 3 or 4 years then I'm sorry!

[Alex_BCFC]

Could probably add other to that list like Derby. 

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, Alex_BCFC said:

I think it was pretty obvious what happened. We still want PL football however as the search started it became pretty clear that the circumstances meant there was no realistic chance of fans returning and therefore the club knew they wouldn't be able to promise transfer funds to an experienced manager. So the decision for this season was made to give Holden the roll (hence the 12 month rolling contract). A sensible decision provided we are in the championship when this nonsense is over (next season I would imagine).

I don't see a queue of people willing to invest at Bristol City. There are examples either way at clubs of stuff going well or amazing We have done OK but hopefully it will come good and I think it will in the future. The foundations are there. I don't just sit there and say its amazing - but I'm also not going to ask for change when I don't think that will be of any use to the club. Generally things have headed in the right direction over the last 5 or 6 years until LJ's last season. I'm a big fan of stability and what SL brings with that. I don't like the changing of managers or board or owners every 2 minutes which seems to be what so many fans want these days for whatever reason.

There are always excuses.

Other clubs are suffering the effects of  COVID as well. 
 

Other clubs who are playing attractive winning football. 

[Alex_BCFC]

Just now, Major Isewater said:

There are always excuses.

Other clubs are suffering the effects of  COVID as well. 
 

Other clubs who are playing attractive winning football. 

They are but as far as I can see they had stability in their club already with their manager and/or parachute payments like Brentford, Norwich, Watford, Swansea.

We changed ours at a time when it became increasingly obvious that a new experienced proven manager wasn't viable in the short-term. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't enjoy watching us but I do also think the right time to judge is when Holden is gone at the end of the season 

[Kid in the Riot]

5 minutes ago, Alex_BCFC said:

I think I said in the last 5 or 6 years the appointments have been good in terms of moving us up the football league so yes we know there were mistakes before that. Although I do think in theory Coppell and SOD were good appointments on paper.

Alas, both proved to be disastrous appointments in terms of results on the pitch. If you're talking last 5 or 6 years then you mean Cotterill, Johnson and Holden.

5 minutes ago, Alex_BCFC said:

I haven't got any figures to hand but I suspect in the last few years Sheff Wed, Cardiff, Huddersfield, Stoke, Forest, Birmingham, Reading, Boro etc would all feature on the list that have spent a lot of money of transfers and wages without going up. Some will have had parachute payments to aid this, some not. No idea on net spends as some like us will have sold a lot of offset this. If I'm wrong and we have spent way more than anyone else and not gone up in the last 3 or 4 years then I'm sorry!

I'm referring to all of Lansdown's reign, not just the past few years. Using that measure Cardiff, Hudds, Stoke, Birmingham, Reading and Boro have all spectacularly outperformed us. We aren't in the same league as any of them in terms of achievements, most upsettingly not even Cardiff who were in L1 with us playing at Ninian Park back in 2001 when Lansdown took over. They've had two major cup finals and two promotions to the Premier League since then. 

Forest and Wednesday are better examples, though they have both at least experienced Premier League football. 

[steviestevieneville]

50 minutes ago, Alex_BCFC said:

I don't think he has made any mistakes in terms of managers for a while now. And I think in general the recruitment is very good - I'm certainly not moaning at a lot of the players that have come in over the last 5 or 6 years (Kalas, Mawson, Dasilva, Fammy etc). Mistakes have been made but every football club will have this.

I would be interested to know how much a lot of clubs have spent as the figures in football don't really mean too much these days. You can spend 100m and get nowhere quite easily. Undoubtedly teams have done better than us and some have done worse. Room for improvement definitely.

No I don't think anything has to change (fundamentally) as I believe the club is heading in the right direction in general and ignoring this unusual season in unusual times. Slow and steady progress can be frustrating in a world where people want stuff instantly. And SL has made a lot of mistakes along the way no doubt. He is far from perfect. But I do believe that Holden was the no lose man for this joke season and it will be time to start judging again next when he is put back to the role he should have (assistant).

You haven’t got a problem with recruitment . Here’s a list of players bought by Ashton  ,you  named 4 . How many on that list can you genuinely say have been successes . Even with the players you highlighted . How many will we be getting a return on ? 

[Alex_BCFC]

Just now, Kid in the Riot said:

Alas, both proved to be disastrous appointments in terms of results on the pitch. If you're talking last 5 or 6 years then you mean Cotterill, Johnson and Holden.

I'm referring to all of Lansdown's reign, not just the past few years. Using that measure Cardiff, Hudds, Stoke, Birmingham, Reading and Boro have all spectacularly outperformed us. We aren't in the same league as any of them in terms of achievements, most upsettingly not even Cardiff who were in L1 with us playing at Ninian Park back in 2001 when Lansdown took over. They've had two major cup finals and two promotions to the Premier League since then. 

Forest and Wednesday are better examples, though they have both at least experienced Premier League football. 

They did but sometimes you go with someone you think is right and I think most thought they were right but it doesn't work out. With SOD I actually think he laid a lot of the foundations and was turning a corner before he went. Cotteril obviously came in and did the business after this.

Sorry was talking about the last 5 years where I think at last improvements have been made and the club in general is heading in the right direction. Before this I do think appointing Millen etc was a huge mistake.

All of it is frustrating however I think we should stick with it as long as they appoint someone proven once we are back to normal next season. I personally don't want to be a Hull from recent years (and yes I know they were in the PL etc). So yes I back SL overall and I think it will come good eventually.

[Numero Uno]

51 minutes ago, Mr Chappers said:

Would have thought that with Covid, no supporter income since Mar 20, no certainty of income over the next 12 months, and a truly awful injury crisis, time to cut some slack. Outside the PL, pretty sure some Clubs will be in a massive mess. Time to be grateful for what we have.

Fair points and, with the lack of current and future income in mind, should we be paying a CEO over £500K per year and £13K Pension Contribution? The market rate for a "normal" business with a turnover similar to ours would be circa £350K per year package. Does anybody know what our CEO is doing to justify an additional £160K per year in these Covid times? Not only that but 10%+ pay rises seem to be the norm when again, in the real world, it most certainly isn't especially when the "Business" is heading for a £30-£40m loss next reporting period. All companies I know of have significantly cut costs in these Covid times and it will be interesting to see whether our CEO has had to take a "salary sacrifice" in the next reporting period. If not, why not? Does the specialist knowledge you need to run a football club justify that additional cost?

For relevant comparison I know an equivalent level person running a hugely higher turnover business who has cut his salary in half from £2m to £1m per year AND invested in the business to keep as many people as possible employed within it and still deliver the service to the quality that wins them commissions.

When you hear a commentator on national tv saying that the rookie Manager is finding the "dealing with the politics" tough then I have to wonder why we have such a situation in place and who has created it? You can guarantee one thing - it won't be Dean Holden's doing. My question to Steve if I had five minutes with him would be "can this be done another way?". Appointing a novice Manager and then making him work with his hands tied behind his back (I understand he accepted those terms but that doesn't make my point any less valid) is not something we should be grateful for even if Steve's funding of the club is to a large degree.

[sh1t_ref_again]

You missed an option of "I have not really got a clue what goes on inside the club but its the popular thing to say on a fans forum so must be true where the problems lie"..... no ignore this, its covered by the 1st 2 options.

I am not saying Ashton is not the problem, and you could find my post on another thread that suggest his role within the club may need to change if indeed that's the barrier to getting a decent manager, or he may need to go, I simply do not have any real knowledge to base an opinion on.

I am sure SL has made many fault's with the money he has invested, if he has made mistakes then its his money to make them with, but sure they were made with the best intentions. 

All the nonsense looking at what he has spent and should have done this, should have done that, easy to say now. Just to prove the point, if you can give me next weeks lottery numbers I would be grateful, because I already know last weeks, but that was easy.

More so than ever we should be grateful to have a club on such a solid footing and not having to look over our shoulder for administration. The football is dire, DH should go, its not worked out how they hoped, that happens everyday in business.

No that many years ago, we were in the same league as the gas and swindle, perhaps without SL or a fake sheikh instead we may be there with them.

[steviestevieneville]

22 minutes ago, Alex_BCFC said:

I think I said in the last 5 or 6 years the appointments have been good in terms of moving us up the football league so yes we know there were mistakes before that. Although I do think in theory Coppell and SOD were good appointments on paper.

I haven't got any figures to hand but I suspect in the last few years Sheff Wed, Cardiff, Huddersfield, Stoke, Forest, Birmingham, Reading, Boro etc would all feature on the list that have spent a lot of money of transfers and wages without going up. Some will have had parachute payments to aid this, some not. No idea on net spends as some like us will have sold a lot of offset this. If I'm wrong and we have spent way more than anyone else and not gone up in the last 3 or 4 years then I'm sorry!

A large part of the last 5/6 years was a squad built by Kieth Burt. It’s now been dismantled by Ashton . We now have a worse squad but a higher wage bill 

[Alex_BCFC]

2 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

You haven’t got a problem with recruitment . Here’s a list of players bought by Ashton  ,you  named 4 . How many on that list can you genuinely say have been successes . Even with the players you highlighted . How many will we be getting a return on ? 

Loads of those were successes. Fammy has been good, Tammy as great bit of business for the season and certainly helped us to get the likes of Kalas, Dasilva in future years. I can't be bothered to go through every player as there are a lot on that list (Hunt, COD, BW, Baker, Elliasson, Weimann, Nagy, Afobe were all good signings though).

Like any club there are good signings and bad signings. Overall the squad assembled is heading in the right direction when all fit and we are now a reasonably attractive prospect to play for hence signings Mawson, Kalas etc. Just hope they get it right with the appointment when things are normal again (august).

[phantom]

2 hours ago, Mr Chappers said:

Stable owner who loves the club, supports managers, has re-built the stadium, and developed top notch training facilities. That’s a problem most clubs would love to have

But where it matters most he hasn't delivered 

[Alex_BCFC]

1 minute ago, steviestevieneville said:

A large part of the last 5/6 years was a squad built by Kieth Burt. It’s now been dismantled by Ashton . We now have a worse squad but a higher wage bill 

Don't actually agree with that. I do think midfield is an issue and so will the loss of Fammy for next season. Again a new manager when things are normal would resolve this fairly quickly. Everyone has a higher wage bill than 5/6 years ago - that's the way of the world in football. Costs have gone crazy.

[steviestevieneville]

1 minute ago, Alex_BCFC said:

Don't actually agree with that. I do think midfield is an issue and so will the loss of Fammy for next season. Again a new manager when things are normal would resolve this fairly quickly. Everyone has a higher wage bill than 5/6 years ago - that's the way of the world in football. Costs have gone crazy.

So your saying , you think the current squad is better now than when Ashton came in ? 

[Alex_BCFC]

Just now, steviestevieneville said:

So your saying , you think the current squad is better now than when Ashton came in ? 

When everyone is fully fit I would say it similar to 2016 yes in terms of ability. As I said my concern would be for losing Fammy and I would like to see a decent central midfielder come in. But I don't think it is worth spending big money on those until certainty returns with a new manager.

 

[steviestevieneville]

4 minutes ago, Alex_BCFC said:

Loads of those were successes. Fammy has been good, Tammy as great bit of business for the season and certainly helped us to get the likes of Kalas, Dasilva in future years. I can't be bothered to go through every player as there are a lot on that list (Hunt, COD, BW, Baker, Elliasson, Weimann, Nagy, Afobe were all good signings though).

Like any club there are good signings and bad signings. Overall the squad assembled is heading in the right direction when all fit and we are now a reasonably attractive prospect to play for hence signings Mawson, Kalas etc. Just hope they get it right with the appointment when things are normal again (august).

You can’t be bothered because it smacks you in the face the amount of failures there’s been. 
Out of the players you’ve mentioned , I’ll agree with wiemann . Callum O’dowda ? Really . You’ve named a few out of over 40 and I don’t agree with them either 

[steviestevieneville]

1 minute ago, Alex_BCFC said:

When everyone is fully fit I would say it similar to 2016 yes in terms of ability. As I said my concern would be for losing Fammy and I would like to see a decent central midfielder come in. But I don't think it is worth spending big money on those until certainty returns with a new manager.

 

It’s the structure that’s fundamentally wrong . Ashton has too much power 

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, Alex_BCFC said:

Loads of those were successes. Fammy has been good, Tammy as great bit of business for the season and certainly helped us to get the likes of Kalas, Dasilva in future years. I can't be bothered to go through every player as there are a lot on that list (Hunt, COD, BW, Baker, Elliasson, Weimann, Nagy, Afobe were all good signings though).

Like any club there are good signings and bad signings. Overall the squad assembled is heading in the right direction when all fit and we are now a reasonably attractive prospect to play for hence signings Mawson, Kalas etc. Just hope they get it right with the appointment when things are normal again (august).

Out of interest, what are you measuring “good” on?

This was a player we broke out transfer record on, who we hoped would fire us to the PL or we sold for a huge profit because he was using us as a stepping stone.

As it currently stands we will have sunk £8m on him.

Not a flop but I can’t qualify it as good either.