The bigger picture

[Alex_BCFC]

1 minute ago, steviestevieneville said:

You can’t be bothered because it smacks you in the face the amount of failures there’s been. 
Out of the players you’ve mentioned , I’ll agree with wiemann . Callum O’dowda ? Really . You’ve named a few out of over 40 and I don’t agree with them either 

I'm not going to comment in detail on every one - theres loads on there! 

Every club has a lot of failures. That's the world of football.

COD has been good considering he cost about £750k and has been pretty good this season I think.

I can't help it if you don't agree with the ones I've mentioned!

[Sheltons Army]

11 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

A large part of the last 5/6 years was a squad built by Kieth Burt. It’s now been dismantled by Ashton . We now have a worse squad but a higher wage bill 

I’m edging increasingly towards Keith Burt was a big as loss, if not bigger than Cotterrill

1 minute ago, Alex_BCFC said:

I'm not going to comment in detail on every one - theres loads on there! 

Every club has a lot of failures. That's the world of football.

COD has been good considering he cost about £750k and has been pretty good this season I think.

I can't help it if you don't agree with the ones I've mentioned!

Sorry but if you think our recruitment has been good ......wow

[Alex_BCFC]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Out of interest, what are you measuring “good” on?

This was a player we broke out transfer record on, who we hoped would fire us to the PL or we sold for a huge profit because he was using us as a stepping stone.

As it currently stands we will have sunk £8m on him.

Not a flop but I can’t qualify it as good either. 

Well he scores 1 in 3 in this league which is a good return for any striker.

He isn't amazing but is he is a good striker in this league. Is he good enough to get us in to the prem - no I don't so as a starter. But as part of squad he is (ie good back-up).

I don't remember signing him and thinking he will fire us to the prem.

1 minute ago, Sheltons Army said:

I’m edging increasingly towards Keith Burt was a big as loss, if not bigger than Cotterrill

Sorry but if you think our recruitment has been good ......wow

Some has been good - some has been bad as I've said. Overall we have a reasonable squad ready to move forward when a proper manager comes in.

[steviestevieneville]

Just now, Alex_BCFC said:

I'm not going to comment in detail on every one - theres loads on there! 

Every club has a lot of failures. That's the world of football.

COD has been good considering he cost about £750k and has been pretty good this season I think.

I can't help it if you don't agree with the ones I've mentioned!

Agree it’s subjective but i certainly don’t agree with COD. A player that runs with his head down at our level . Great scouting . Every club will have some failures not lots. That’s  why you have people in charge of scouting/ recruitment who actually know what there doing. 

[steviestevieneville]

1 minute ago, Alex_BCFC said:

Well he scores 1 in 3 in this league which is a good return for any striker.

He isn't amazing but is he is a good striker in this league. Is he good enough to get us in to the prem - no I don't so as a starter. But as part of squad he is (ie good back-up).

I don't remember signing him and thinking he will fire us to the prem.

Some has been good - some has been bad as I've said. Overall we have a reasonable squad ready to move forward when a proper manager comes in.

This is the thing . It’s was mentioned last night on commentary . Dean Holden struggles with the club politics.

Mark Ashton said on the radio. Lots of managers won’t work with our recruitment structure. We won’t get a “proper” manager while the current set up is in place. 

[Alex_BCFC]

Just now, steviestevieneville said:

Agree it’s subjective but i certainly don’t agree with COD. A player that runs with his head down at our level . Great scouting . Every club will have some failures not lots. That’s  why you have people in charge of scouting/ recruitment who actually know what there doing. 

He certainly can be like that however I've seen a lot of improvements this season with him (although there was the Barnsley incident ffs!). 

For £750k I think that is a reasonably good signing considering he is a solid championship player.

Could our scouting be better - yes. It all could be better but it hasn't be anywhere near as bad as some are making out. And that is why we have steadily improved until last season. I don't mind being in the minority that thinks once it returns to normal we will crack on with improving again. I could be wrong but who knows...

We will have to change manager though I think.

[Alex_BCFC]

2 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

This is the thing . It’s was mentioned last night on commentary . Dean Holden struggles with the club politics.

Mark Ashton said on the radio. Lots of managers won’t work with our recruitment structure. We won’t get a “proper” manager while the current set up is in place. 

You may well be right - I think otherwise but guess we will find out next season.

[Sheltons Army]

8 minutes ago, Alex_BCFC said:

He certainly can be like that however I've seen a lot of improvements this season with him (although there was the Barnsley incident ffs!). 

For £750k I think that is a reasonably good signing considering he is a solid championship player.

Could our scouting be better - yes. It all could be better but it hasn't be anywhere near as bad as some are making out. And that is why we have steadily improved until last season. I don't mind being in the minority that thinks once it returns to normal we will crack on with improving again. I could be wrong but who knows...

We will have to change manager though I think.

We’ve ‘ steadily improved’  (If that’s still a case)  because we’ve trebled our wage bill

[Alex_BCFC]

1 minute ago, Sheltons Army said:

We’ve ‘ steadily improved’  (If that’s still a case)  because we’ve trebled our wage bill

I think every football club has had its wage bill trebled - that's the way football has gone in the last x years. Its mental but that's football. The nature of just remaining competitive sadly.

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, lenred said:

This ‘Hull, Pompey’ are having a nightmare argument always makes me laugh.  Give me the journey that they’ve been on over the last 15 years over our comparatively dull existence any day of the week. They are even near top of League 1 now and no doubt will be up level with us again soon enough! 

Beat me to it I was going to add it must have been terrible for them watching Premier League football and going to FA Cup Finals.

[tin]

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

SL needs to implement 4 simple steps:

1) Step back from making day to day decisions on the footballing side.

2) Mark Ashton needs (if staying) to step sideways to focus on finance and not recruitment.

3) Employ a DOF who can work alongside a head coach to implement and oversee all aspects of recruitment, scouting, coaching, development, training, academy etc.

4) Hire the best qualified people he can afford in that DOF and head coach role.

Years of underachieving has taught us when SL meddles on the footballing side, it usually goes wrong. 

Several years of MA recruitment has shown a lack of strategy and success - the whole system propped up by academy players and those here before his time.

If those two get out of the way of their egos and our daily football business, we could achieve something big in BS3.

Couldn't have said it any better. There's 20 years of evidence to document SL knows next to nothing about football. Off the pitch, we've drastically improved in that time. On it, we've made virtually no progress whatsoever. 

This four-point plan is a clear path forward. If Ashton doesn't want to move sideways, he needs to go. If SL doesn't want to oversee this structural revamp, he needs to go. 

In terms of DoF, there's a natural progression from chief scout to DoF. It worked for Keith Burt previously and that's the route we should go down, IMO. 

[Redrascal2]

Cannot understand this one. If people think Ashton is the biggest problem which  clearly they do then who is the one keeping him in his job. Lansdown. He is at the root of our current situation. He has the final say on everything.

[sh1t_ref_again]

1 hour ago, steviestevieneville said:

This is the thing . It’s was mentioned last night on commentary . Dean Holden struggles with the club politics.

Mark Ashton said on the radio. Lots of managers won’t work with our recruitment structure. We won’t get a “proper” manager while the current set up is in place. 

You're just making 2 + 2 = your agenda that it must be MA

For all anyone outside the club knows it maybe Ashton, but it could be politics between players, agents all sorts of things

The current set up can attract any manager but may need to be changed how it operates to do so

[sh1t_ref_again]

41 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

Cannot understand this one. If people think Ashton is the biggest problem which  clearly they do then who is the one keeping him in his job. Lansdown. He is at the root of our current situation. He has the final say on everything.

He is also the one who keeps dipping his hand in his large pockets to keep the club afloat,

So you want rid of Lansdown, who is going to replace him you would be satisfied with, Vincent Tan might have a few mates, they may be some more fake shrieks knocking around

[steviestevieneville]

44 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

You're just making 2 + 2 = your agenda that it must be MA

For all anyone outside the club knows it maybe Ashton, but it could be politics between players, agents all sorts of things

The current set up can attract any manager but may need to be changed how it operates to do so

 Ashton said himself not many managers would work under the current set up. What we don’t know is. Did he set up the recruitment /scouting (or lack of) himself, his idea .  Was it set up under instruction from Lansdown 

[sh1t_ref_again]

3 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

 Ashton said himself not many managers would work under the current set up. What we don’t know is. Did he set up the recruitment /scouting (or lack of) himself, his idea .  Was it set up under instruction from Lansdown 

Your putting together to totally separate quotes like they relate to each other, when there is no substance behind what the politics quote meant and therefore the conclusions you jump too.

I agree not all managers will work under the current structure and in order to attract a "Pat lamb", they will need to review, if that means a change of responsibilities for MA or he leaves the club, time will tell. But if anything the failure of the DH experiment, will force that issue to be resolved.  

[steviestevieneville]

I think it’s pretty obvious what the “politics “ statement was referring to . If it was anything to do with players then Holden would know full well what to expect as he’s been part of it for years

[Robbored]

5 hours ago, steviestevieneville said:

A addition to the sack Dean poll. We all know it’s just pointless with Ashton in charge . Who is the major problem though. Twenty years of Lansdown and two years of relative success. I’ll give him GJ because he appointed him  . We know though that Kieth Dawe recommended cotts. Some fans will say about the financial stability etc & that’s valid . However , it’s quite clear he knows very little about football and I’ve said plenty of times that we’ll never get promoted with him as owner. His strategy doesn’t work. Surely he must think , why isn’t it working .
So, should he sack MA and rethink things or would you be happy for him to sell up  

Its really very simple - SL appointed Ashton and his son Jon to run the club in his absence and clearly has complete faith in Ashton to be CEO and his son to make sure that Ashton does a proper job.

It doesn’t make that slightest difference that we on otib whinge and complain about Ashton in particular. To me and probably many others Jon Lansdown is pretty much invisible as chairman. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, steviestevieneville said:

I’m a fan of stability also . The main worry for me is Lansdown keeps making the same mistakes . It’s not jus Dean or covid , it’s the current CEO and his recruitment/scouting policy and SL’s apparent lack of identifying the problem . It’s been 20 years & £200m with two promotions & one relegation . A huge amount of failed managers & players. After 20 years , do you think it’s going to change ? Something has to. 

There are two ways of looking at this, at least two.

Failure to get to the PL, yes. On the managerial appointment front, Coppell was prior to joining us an undoubted success as a manager. Yet quit after two games!

O'Driscoll prior to joining us was a fairly competent manager, yet look what happened! Even Pulis (who I'm no fan of) had an acceptable track record at a lot of his clubs over his career before and after us.

All 3 were SL, all 3 failed to varying levels yet their track record elsewhere was not bad to good.

In modern times, pre SL- okay say from 1980 onwards we spent more time in the third tier than out of it. Now that trend has been reversed under his reign so it's a difficult one. We also saw our best Cup run in a generation and have unlike a lot of our history hit 5th Round of the FA Cup a few times.

You mentioned somewhere, unsure about which thread about bottom 3 being nailed on next year. Do you actually think we have a bottom 3 squad? Can't see it personally.

You mention recruitment. Yet is it so bad- or is it how they've been coached/managed/developed too? We seem to sign players with a decent background or track record when they join, ie on signing and in quite a few cases we see stagnation or even regression.

It's one of my favourite examples but my suspicion is that Nagy and Massengo would look better at eg Brentford in their setup. In the case of the latter probably a more consistent development too.

Off the pitch, he's pulled our infrastructure up to the necessary level for a Championship club. That however is only catching up with many and still feels a work in progress.

The injuries a prime example, the size and depth of the Scouting/Recruitment team another, potentially some of the development of players post signing too, especially younger ones.

All that said, had he rolled the dice in January 2008 before FFP, £10-20m in extra fees, wages, loan fees maybe we go up!

PL cash, parachute payments, maybe some of the infrastructure gets fast tracked. Maybe being in the PL makes Ashton Vale more likely.

[steviestevieneville]

34 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Its really very simple - SL appointed Ashton and his son Jon to run the club in his absence and clearly has complete faith in Ashton to be CEO and his son to make sure that Ashton does a proper job.

It doesn’t make that slightest difference that we on otib whinge and complain about Ashton in particular. To me and probably many others Jon Lansdown is pretty much invisible as chairman. 

You do say a lot without actually saying anything . We all know this . Stop regurgitating things we already know and actually form a opinion of your own . 

[Robbored]

13 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

You do say a lot without actually saying anything . We all know this . Stop regurgitating things we already know and actually form a opinion of your own . 

Clearly you get it Stevie but don’t assume that everybody does. You’re over estimating how much some posters actually understand how it all works at AG.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Seems to be unrealistic fans, expectations missing from the poll. 

Why is that? 

The Op's question is loaded and once again looks as if there is, a problem, but completely ignores that there may not be a problem and it's fans who a creating and exacbating one, during lockdown. 

 

Just a thought 

No away win in the league since 1st Dec and 4 wins and no draws in the last 13 games suggest to me there maybe a problem. Indeed one that imo could be worse by the end of this month.

However this is just my opinion time will tell as they say,

Holden was about 3weeks late in making subs v Sheff Utd everyone could see our forwards were non existant/not interested/minds elsewhere one of many poor choices recently.

[Redrascal2]

2 hours ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

He is also the one who keeps dipping his hand in his large pockets to keep the club afloat,

So you want rid of Lansdown, who is going to replace him you would be satisfied with, Vincent Tan might have a few mates, they may be some more fake shrieks knocking around

So who do you think is responsible for the appointment of Ashton and Holden. 

[Berkshire Red]

6 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

£200m invested over a 20 year period that has seen 50 clubs play in the Premier League, many much smaller and less well-off clubs than us, suggests failure to me. 

Which of these managerial appointments would you consider to be successful?

July 1999-January 2000: Tony Pulis
January 2000-May 2000: Tony Fawthrop **
June 2000-July 2004: Danny Wilson
July 2004-September 2005: Brian Tinnion
September 2005-March 2010: Gary Johnson
April 2010-August 2010: Steve Coppell
August 2010-October 2011: Keith Millen
October 2011-January 2013: Derek McInnes
January 2013-November 2013: Sean O'Driscoll
December 2013-January 2016: Steve Cotterill
February 2016-July 2020: Lee Johnson
August 2020 - present: Dean Holden

Wilson - yes

Gary Johnson - yes

Steve Cotterill - yes

Lee Johnson - yes

Holden - current, will judge when he leaves.

4/11 id say have been a success. Thats probably better than most clubs

[The Bard]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Out of interest, what are you measuring “good” on?

This was a player we broke out transfer record on, who we hoped would fire us to the PL or we sold for a huge profit because he was using us as a stepping stone.

As it currently stands we will have sunk £8m on him.

Not a flop but I can’t qualify it as good either. 

We've sunk a similar amount on Nathan Baker and comparatively Fam is a roaring success....

[Merrick's Marvels]

6 hours ago, Alex_BCFC said:

Which I don't actually think he has. I think serious questions would be asked about this if he doesn't appoint an experienced proven manager when the fans are back and things are normal again.

Sorry to break it to you but Dean Holden will be the manager "when the fans are back and things are normal again"

[Merrick's Marvels]

6 hours ago, Mr Chappers said:

Would have thought that with Covid, no supporter income since Mar 20, no certainty of income over the next 12 months, and a truly awful injury crisis, time to cut some slack. 

This is precisely what the excuses will be. Imo, rather than the sack, Lansdown is more likely to give Holden a bonus for keeping us in the division and a nice little cup run. All the while ignoring the underlying stats (xG etc) which indicate we are going backwards and downwards. At what point is he going to think - every other club has to deal with covid and injuries too, how come they ain't sticking the place out like we are?  

[Dynamite Red]

Ashton is just a well paid odious puppet for Lansdown. 

Be clear Steve Lansdown still makes all the big calls at this club such as strategy and managerial appointments, anyone believing anything else is sadly being fooled.  Ashton is just a front to this masquerade. 

[77 punk]

all i  can see is a relegation battle next year  and season tickets sales will be thousands down because of covid

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, Alex_BCFC said:

Well he scores 1 in 3 in this league which is a good return for any striker.

He isn't amazing but is he is a good striker in this league. Is he good enough to get us in to the prem - no I don't so as a starter. But as part of squad he is (ie good back-up).

I don't remember signing him and thinking he will fire us to the prem.

Some has been good - some has been bad as I've said. Overall we have a reasonable squad ready to move forward when a proper manager comes in.

But the head-coach and CEO signed him on this basis....it is what they said in the early days of him signing.  Goals record is absolutely fine, but what about being a good signing on the basis of walking for £0 in 4 months time?  Are you happy with that?  I’m not.

2 hours ago, steviestevieneville said:

 Ashton said himself not many managers would work under the current set up. What we don’t know is. Did he set up the recruitment /scouting (or lack of) himself, his idea .  Was it set up under instruction from Lansdown 

Ashton had a go at implementing it in 2012, but SOD and Cotts didn’t use it....low and behold, he comes back in officially in Jan 2016 and by March he’s sacked Keith Burt.  I’d say he had a pretty big influence in it wouldn’t you?