Who are these players?

[TonyTonyTony]

2 minutes ago, Garland-sweden said:

Dasilva and Bakinson not good enough.

Wasn’t that long ago we had a high opinion of JD. England Under 21 but had lost his way. I wonder what has happened?

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Wasn’t that long ago we had a high opinion of JD. England Under 21 but had lost his way. I wonder what has happened?

I thought earlier this season he was starting to return to his on-loan form.  But following the ankle injury at Millwall he’s not been the same.  Worth remembering he missed most of last season, so gonna have ups and downs.

[maxjak]

1 hour ago, NcnsBcfc said:

thanks @Davefevs

When you put that team on paper, it does look weak doesn't it.

I understand NP wanting to work with a smaller squad. But when a large number of that aforementioned small squad are either injured, out of form or as he puts it "Not on the bus"; then there is very little to work with.

Hence the flogging of Martin, Weimann and James (until his injury).

Benarous reminded me a lot of when Semenyeo first came into the team, when he played against Barnsley. Completely out of pace/Understanding of the team. It was a bizarre decision that @GrahamCand I were dumfounded by.

Scott's early season promise has given way to being ponderous, and lacking confidence. It's always difficult of course being 18, and playing in a struggling side. But that leaves Palmer as the only attacking Midfielder. Hence why we've scored so little goals at home of course.

What does he do, put the kids in? (Conway, Bell, Jannah, Bakinson again...?). NP talks about having experienced players. We have experienced players that are just not performing to anywhere near the required standard.

Getting further experienced players in the Jan window is going to be very very difficult. You only really then get young players, or experienced players with an attitude problem/issue that have fallen out with their current team; and aren't playing. For every Tomlin that you get in of this ilk(from his loan spell, before he turned into one of those for us on a permanent), there are countless others that have had virtually no real impact.

Alex's 3 performances in central midfield for England U 19's during the break clearly show the ability of this young man, and while playing in a well drilled and relatively successful side will hopefully have boosted his confidence, the transition to a poorly organised struggling adult team doesn't do him any favours?    I think he needs to be used sparingly, until our team finds some kind of stability?  He's gonna be a quality footballer eventually, so lets not ruin him, by expecting too much, too soon?    

[TonyTonyTony]

Just now, Davefevs said:

I thought earlier this season he was starting to return to his on-loan form.  But following the ankle injury at Millwall he’s not been the same.  Worth remembering he missed most of last season, so gonna have ups and downs.

I hope he gets back to form. Id be a bit gutted if we got rid of him as i think there is a very good left back / wing back even though he is lightweight.

 

[maxjak]

3 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I hope he gets back to form. Id be a bit gutted if we got rid of him as i think there is a very good left back / wing back even though he is lightweight.

 

Lightweight sums he up, he's not commited enough in the tackle, and his positional play is sub standard.  He might well succeed elsewhere, in the right team, but IMHO, I would get rid of him, and bring in a stronger and smarter left back if possible.

[Davefevs]

Just now, maxjak said:

Lightweight sums he up, he's not commited enough in the tackle, and his positional play is sub standard.  He might well succeed elsewhere, in the right team, but IMHO, I would get rid of him, and bring in a stronger and smarter left back if possible.

Much as I like Dasilva, to think that the summer we signed him we could’ve had Antonee Robinson (from Everton) for the same money.

[One Team]

15 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Wasn’t that long ago we had a high opinion of JD. England Under 21 but had lost his way. I wonder what has happened?

True. I do wonder if the best thing about JD is his song. 

[Port Said Red]

2 hours ago, NcnsBcfc said:

I'd add Dasilva into the list as well. He's not been the same since his injuries; and defensively he's been poor. Hence the rotating with Pring, and even Baker playing there.

I wouldn't, the body language between the two is excellent whenever I have seen them together. All smiles and chatting. 

[YCbrs]

I’m no expert but I think the criticism towards Bakinson is unfair. He’s still pretty young and is basically our only all round midfielder, I think with some better midfielders around him and the right striker making decent runs occasionally he could look much more accomplished as a deep lying playmaker as he has an eye for an interception too.

[NcnsBcfc]

51 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think Atkinson has settled pretty well, although I’m not expecting Kalas / Baker levels from him.  We’ve had a pretty inconsistent pairings all the way across the back 4/5 this season which doesn’t help.

Agreed, he does lose out in a physical challenge from time to time, but he is of course on a steep learning curve. He has some pace, not bad in the air, and a better passer of the ball than Baker. He's not a Webster, and he looks raw at times; but I've seen enough of Atkinson to like his potential at least. He is willing to learn, and brave (a number of times he could have gone off injured, but stayed on). It's a huge leap from NL to Champ in 2 years (via L1). I'll need to see how he is next season, after a full season at this level to make any form of judgement on whether he is up to the job or not; the same goes for Tanner.

It says a lot about us as a club that we've had to go into the lower divisions to buy players. Previously we were feeding at the table of PL sides like Chelsea and Villa (Quoting Kalas, Palmer, JD and Baker there). Nowadays we're buying from Oxford, and Carlisle; whilst the other three new permanent signings this summer had all been released by their clubs, or in Simpson's case was on a shirt term deal here.

Gone are the days for the time being of us being in ready made replacements at this level. We just don't have the scope to do that at present.

I got the feeling from NP's interviews yesterday, that he has gone back to the board and almost insisted on new arrivals in Jan. A further indication that he has lost faith in the current group of players for me.

[NcnsBcfc]

57 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I thought earlier this season he was starting to return to his on-loan form.  But following the ankle injury at Millwall he’s not been the same.  Worth remembering he missed most of last season, so gonna have ups and downs.

Since his wonderful loan spell with us, he just hasn't hit those heights again unfortunately. A combination of injuries, and lack of form I reckon.

When he was at his best, he would maraud up and down the wing, and look to break through the front line (like Weimann's first goal against Barnsley). He would often have the pace, and natural ball skills to get himself back into position. A decent crosser of the ball, who linked up well with the left winger/midfielder.

For me at the moment,  not only have has his pace gone; but also his defensive capabilities. He very rarely gets close enough to a player to cut out a cross, or indeed breaks over the half way line anymore. Whether this is a physical or mental thing i don't know. But i remember NP talking about the need for him to improve earlier on this season. 

He is also a liability on defending crossed coming in from the other side at the back post. To such a degree, that NP has even put Baker in there to defend it better; and there's no way Nathan Baker is a LB (I know he played there when he started). I don't think he trusts Pring either to be fair; and is probably annoyed by his lack of fitness.

Problems at both full back positions have haunted us for years now, whilst the centre backs generally haven't been too bad. Vyner's poor performances against Brum, and Coventry have probably sealed his fate i would imagine. Much like good old Taylor Moore.

[DaveF]

25 minutes ago, YCbrs said:

I’m no expert but I think the criticism towards Bakinson is unfair. He’s still pretty young and is basically our only all round midfielder, I think with some better midfielders around him and the right striker making decent runs occasionally he could look much more accomplished as a deep lying playmaker as he has an eye for an interception too.

I would say he's all round, defensively he's a total liability.

I agree he could be a decent play maker, but really needs to work on his defensive side.

[YCbrs]

5 minutes ago, DaveF said:

I would say he's all round, defensively he's a total liability.

I agree he could be a decent play maker, but really needs to work on his defensive side.

Yeah he’s not the finished product I completely agree but I’ve seen some improvement in his defensive game recently, with more work and experience, and as I mentioned before with some better players around him he looks like he could develop into a decent player at this level in my opinion.

[Waconda]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I thought earlier this season he was starting to return to his on-loan form.  But following the ankle injury at Millwall he’s not been the same.  Worth remembering he missed most of last season, so gonna have ups and downs.

TBF I think the opposition have worked out that the long diagonal over/on is head is very effective weapon against us. 

[DaveF]

35 minutes ago, DaveF said:

I would say he's all round, defensively he's a total liability.

I agree he could be a decent play maker, but really needs to work on his defensive side.

That should read 'wouldn't'...

[Clutton Caveman]

4 hours ago, dunsteral said:

In Nigel Pearson's presser yesterday he was quite vehemant that come january he "will get rid of the players who dont want to be here"

Who is he referring to   any ideas?

One thing that always occurs to me when a manager (all of them not just pearson) is under pressure for poor results they accuse players

of not carrying out the managers instructions and that is why they lost. They never accept that if the players do carry out the managers

instructions but they lose anyway it may be because his instructions are the wrong ones anyway.

It seems to me that players these days have to play to the managers instructions and are not allowed to express themselves for fear of

getting a bollocking because they dont do what the managers tell them to.

Surely there has to be some room for flair or expression but it seems like ther isn,t.

 

It seems to me that when managers start to talk a bout players as they, instead of we, and start to air their dirty washing in public to distract from the real problems, they don't last long.

[Davefevs]

35 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Since his wonderful loan spell with us, he just hasn't hit those heights again unfortunately. A combination of injuries, and lack of form I reckon.

When he was at his best, he would maraud up and down the wing, and look to break through the front line (like Weimann's first goal against Barnsley). He would often have the pace, and natural ball skills to get himself back into position. A decent crosser of the ball, who linked up well with the left winger/midfielder.

For me at the moment,  not only have has his pace gone; but also his defensive capabilities. He very rarely gets close enough to a player to cut out a cross, or indeed breaks over the half way line anymore. Whether this is a physical or mental thing i don't know. But i remember NP talking about the need for him to improve earlier on this season. 

He is also a liability on defending crossed coming in from the other side at the back post. To such a degree, that NP has even put Baker in there to defend it better; and there's no way Nathan Baker is a LB (I know he played there when he started). I don't think he trusts Pring either to be fair; and is probably annoyed by his lack of fitness.

Problems at both full back positions have haunted us for years now, whilst the centre backs generally haven't been too bad. Vyner's poor performances against Brum, and Coventry have probably sealed his fate i would imagine. Much like good old Taylor Moore.

I probably don’t see him quite as “bad” as you do, but I do think he’s not playing anywhere near how he was earlier this season.  One to watch over the coming games…assuming he plays.

16 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

TBF I think the opposition have worked out that the long diagonal over/on is head is very effective weapon against us. 

It’s a double edged sword…one where we’d really need to hear from Nige why 1) our full-backs start narrow and / or 2) we don’t get enough pressure on the player pinging the diag.

Personally I think both Dasilva and Tanner (or whoever is LB / RB) could position themselves wider earlier in the opposition phase.  I also think our wide midfielders don’t help double-up very well either. They don’t react (in fact, they don’t proactively position themselves) for that switched ball.  And Reading between the lines this is an example of what Fleming meant by “application”.

If we take an example (visualise yourself) of Lloyd Kelly in his defensive half, left side, looking to ping to the RW area.  1) Our LB can start to position himself wider, whilst still protecting the LCB to an extent.  But 2) our LM shouldn’t be worried about the RB, but positioned somewhere deeper.

Too often we defend as a 424, when we should be two banks of 4 (442).

Some pics to bring to life….hopefully!

summary: large target for Kelly to hit, plus lots of ground for our LW to make up to help support the LB.  LB too narrow also, doesn’t need to be as close to the LCB.  The LW is actually doing nothing of use positioned where he is.  If he has the intelligence to know Kelly’s range then he would position himself better.  It is why we often get overrun through the middle.  We really do have a midfield two in this scenario.

This time the LB has gone say 5-8 yards wider.  The LW tucked in 10-15 yards. Kelly’s diag, even if the CF hadn’t pressed him much, has a much smaller target area.  Plus if he does land that pass, the LB and LW are close enough to double up.  The LW is also in touch with the LCM, and that allows the RCM to go tight to the midfielder close to Kelly, as long as they are mindful of screening the passing lane into Solanke.

Too often will are I’ll-disciplined / not switched on out of possession.

During the match I sometimes take photos of shape / poor shape.  Tomorrow might be a good game to see how we deal with their 433 / 4231.  They will look for similar patterns as Bournemouth.

[Waconda]

Just now, Davefevs said:

I probably don’t see him quite as “bad” as you do, but I do think he’s not playing anywhere near how he was earlier this season.  One to watch over the coming games…assuming he plays.

It’s a double edged sword…one where we’d really need to hear from Nige why 1) our full-backs start narrow and / or 2) we don’t get enough pressure on the player pinging the diag.

Personally I think both Dasilva and Tanner (or whoever is LB / RB) could position themselves wider earlier in the opposition phase.  I also think our wide midfielders don’t help double-up very well either. They don’t react (in fact, they don’t proactively position themselves) for that switched ball.  And Reading between the lines this is an example of what Fleming meant by “application”.

If we take an example (visualise yourself) of Lloyd Kelly in his defensive half, left side, looking to ping to the RW area.  1) Our LB can start to position himself wider, whilst still protecting the LCB to an extent.  But 2) our LM shouldn’t be worried about the RB, but positioned somewhere deeper.

Too often we defend as a 424, when we should be two banks of 4 (442).

Some pics to bring to life….hopefully!

summary: large target for Kelly to hit, plus lots of ground for our LW to make up to help support the LB.  LB too narrow also, doesn’t need to be as close to the LCB.  The LW is actually doing nothing of use positioned where he is.  If he has the intelligence to know Kelly’s range then he would position himself better.  It is why we often get overrun through the middle.  We really do have a midfield two in this scenario.

This time the LB has gone say 5-8 yards wider.  The LW tucked in 10-15 yards. Kelly’s diag, even if the CF hadn’t pressed him much, has a much smaller target area.  Plus if he does land that pass, the LB and LW are close enough to double up.  The LW is also in touch with the LCM, and that allows the RCM to go tight to the midfielder close to Kelly, as long as they are mindful of screening the passing lane into Solanke.

Too often will are I’ll-disciplined / not switched on out of possession.

During the match I sometimes take photos of shape / poor shape.  Tomorrow might be a good game to see how we deal with their 433 / 4231.  They will look for similar patterns as Bournemouth.

Yes !

It is a worry that we seem unable to fix this issue.

[42nite]

2 hours ago, frenchred said:

He's come out with the same rhetoric before and picked exactly the same team as previous

Maybe putting them in the shop window...hoping they will perform, allowing their agents to see if they can get any bids going?

The thinking being that any player that can't get into our first team at the moment can't be up to much.

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by 42nite

[LondonBristolian]

I think it is a bit unfair to speculatively name players as we don’t know what goes on behind the scenes. I also think it may be a misnomer to pick out who is not playing and assume it must be them. It could as easily be that players we are having to rely on week in and week out are not showing the leadership needed from senior players.

Like anyone I’ve got five or six names in my head I think it could be but we will learn in January or beyond if we are right or wrong.

One thing I would say is Wells’ name seems to be coming up a bit but, whilst I do not think he suits how we play or we suit how he plays, I don’t feel his application has been a major issue when he has been selected.

[LondonBristolian]

On a tangenital note, here is a BBC article about Conte at Spurs. Nothing to do with us but the last paragraph really really resonates:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59348031

[pongo88]

One point that doesn’t seem to be considered, is it easy for NP to say he will get rid of players who don’t want to be here, but much harder to actually do it.. Even Nagy, who is an international and a good player, had to be given away. In the current market there might not be many takers for the players NP wants to get rid off, even on a free transfer, due to their salary and poor form. The only option for some might be to go on loan somewhere with City still paying part of their salary 

[Waconda]

8 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think it is a bit unfair to speculatively name players as we don’t know what goes on behind the scenes. I also think it may be a misnomer to pick out who is not playing and assume it must be them. It could as easily be that players we are having to rely on week in and week out are not showing the leadership needed from senior players.

Like anyone I’ve got five or six names in my head I think it could be but we will learn in January or beyond if we are right or wrong.

One thing I would say is Wells’ name seems to be coming up a bit but, whilst I do not think he suits how we play or we suit how he plays, I don’t feel his application has been a major issue when he has been selected.

Would it be unfair to ask NP to name the players ?

He says he has told them so no surprises for them.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, pongo88 said:

One point that doesn’t seem to be considered, is it easy for NP to say he will get rid of players who don’t want to be here, but much harder to actually do it.. Even Nagy, who is an international and a good player, had to be given away. In the current market there might not be many takers for the players NP wants to get rid off, even on a free transfer, due to their salary and poor form. The only option for some might be to go on loan somewhere with City still paying part of their salary 

Yes, what alluded to earlier.  Might have to cut our losses, might have to pay a portion of their wages or accept a loan where we don’t get someone to take on the full cost.

As crap as it sounds I’m more in favour of getting “something” than just have them sat around picking up a full wage and not being suitable for selection.  Surely better to loan out player A at 50% of his wages than have him sat at the HPC being a bad influence.

[NcnsBcfc]

5 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think it is a bit unfair to speculatively name players as we don’t know what goes on behind the scenes. I also think it may be a misnomer to pick out who is not playing and assume it must be them. It could as easily be that players we are having to rely on week in and week out are not showing the leadership needed from senior players.

Like anyone I’ve got five or six names in my head I think it could be but we will learn in January or beyond if we are right or wrong.

One thing I would say is Wells’ name seems to be coming up a bit but, whilst I do not think he suits how we play or we suit how he plays, I don’t feel his application has been a major issue when he has been selected.

I think Wells has some quality to him, but at the moment he looks a bit of a square peg in a round hole.

I can't remember seeing a worse protagonist of the forward pressing the defender. From my place in the Dolman, I see him run to within two or three yards of each defender; and then give him, allowing them the opportunity to bring the ball forward unopposed. You can see Martin, and Weimann thinking "why should i bother on this 3 man press, when Wells just isn't applying himself". It's the same when he is asked to play right midfield. He doesn't track his player, and puts in the minimum amount of effort. It's not always his fault of course, sometimes when he gets the ball, his options are so limited that he either loses the ball, or is unable to make an impact.

The above paragraph just really documents that the way he is being asked to play, just isn't his game. He comes alive in the six yard box; and thrives on players getting to the goal line and passing the ball to him. At QPR he had an embarassment of riches in that respect with Eze, Chair & Oseyi-Samuel. We simply don't have those players with the skill, and pace to make that happen.

Strangely my eldest son played up at Failand recently, and was allowed into the gym afterwards. He photgraphed the leadership board for the total distance running, High Intensity distance, Sprint distance, max speed, CMJ Height, Peak Power, Nordbord?, and MTP? @Davefevs you might be interested in the results.

The winner in the max speed "Nakki Wells at 10.3" surprisingly. The next three were all defenders. Tells you everything about our pace up top.

 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

I think Wells has some quality to him, but at the moment he looks a bit of a square peg in a round hole.

I can't remember seeing a worse protagonist of the forward pressing the defender. From my place in the Dolman, I see him run to within two or three yards of each defender; and then give him, allowing them the opportunity to bring the ball forward unopposed. You can see Martin, and Weimann thinking "why should i bother on this 3 man press, when Wells just isn't applying himself". It's the same when he is asked to play right midfield. He doesn't track his player, and puts in the minimum amount of effort. It's not always his fault of course, sometimes when he gets the ball, his options are so limited that he either loses the ball, or is unable to make an impact.

The above paragraph just really documents that the way he is being asked to play, just isn't his game. He comes alive in the six yard box; and thrives on players getting to the goal line and passing the ball to him. At QPR he had an embarassment of riches in that respect with Eze, Chair & Oseyi-Samuel. We simply don't have those players with the skill, and pace to make that happen.

Strangely my eldest son played up at Failand recently, and was allowed into the gym afterwards. He photgraphed the leadership board for the total distance running, High Intensity distance, Sprint distance, max speed, CMJ Height, Peak Power, Nordbord?, and MTP? @Davefevs you might be interested in the results.

The winner in the max speed "Nakki Wells at 10.3" surprisingly. The next three were all defenders. Tells you everything about our pace up top.

 

Very interested!

Think Nige said Atkinson was quick….already know Kalas is.

[chinapig]

28 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I probably don’t see him quite as “bad” as you do, but I do think he’s not playing anywhere near how he was earlier this season.  One to watch over the coming games…assuming he plays.

It’s a double edged sword…one where we’d really need to hear from Nige why 1) our full-backs start narrow and / or 2) we don’t get enough pressure on the player pinging the diag.

Personally I think both Dasilva and Tanner (or whoever is LB / RB) could position themselves wider earlier in the opposition phase.  I also think our wide midfielders don’t help double-up very well either. They don’t react (in fact, they don’t proactively position themselves) for that switched ball.  And Reading between the lines this is an example of what Fleming meant by “application”.

If we take an example (visualise yourself) of Lloyd Kelly in his defensive half, left side, looking to ping to the RW area.  1) Our LB can start to position himself wider, whilst still protecting the LCB to an extent.  But 2) our LM shouldn’t be worried about the RB, but positioned somewhere deeper.

Too often we defend as a 424, when we should be two banks of 4 (442).

Some pics to bring to life….hopefully!

summary: large target for Kelly to hit, plus lots of ground for our LW to make up to help support the LB.  LB too narrow also, doesn’t need to be as close to the LCB.  The LW is actually doing nothing of use positioned where he is.  If he has the intelligence to know Kelly’s range then he would position himself better.  It is why we often get overrun through the middle.  We really do have a midfield two in this scenario.

This time the LB has gone say 5-8 yards wider.  The LW tucked in 10-15 yards. Kelly’s diag, even if the CF hadn’t pressed him much, has a much smaller target area.  Plus if he does land that pass, the LB and LW are close enough to double up.  The LW is also in touch with the LCM, and that allows the RCM to go tight to the midfielder close to Kelly, as long as they are mindful of screening the passing lane into Solanke.

Too often will are I’ll-disciplined / not switched on out of possession.

During the match I sometimes take photos of shape / poor shape.  Tomorrow might be a good game to see how we deal with their 433 / 4231.  They will look for similar patterns as Bournemouth.

The bold bit seems fundamental to me. I can go back to GJ's team where Sproule and McIndoe would always drop back, allowing the full backs to tuck in close to the centre backs.

The central midfielders would then position themselves in front of the defence and hey presto you have a very effective barrier that challenges the opposition to find space to play in the final third.

This takes organisation, discipline and commitment certainly but it's not rocket science. So why is the current team incapable of doing the same?

Edited November 19, 2021 by chinapig

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, JonDolman said:

I think Dasilva is a class player and will show that if he goes to a team that suits his game more than we do. We aren't the right team for him imo.

For that reason I think Pearson will look to move him on. Doubt we would get much for him though. But then surely replacing him shouldn't cost much either.

Dasilva has been nowhere near the player he has been previously when fit. On loan but also in 19/20 in his first season as a permanent player he was much better than this.

I would say though that most players are not playing to their best this season. Apart from maybe Bentley and Kalas I cant think of anyone else.

That depends whether the current system /style (yes some of you what system, what style) is transitional or not.  Might be a pragmatic one until he can shift some out, bring some in.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, chinapig said:

This seems fundamental to me. I can go back to GJ's team where Sproule and McIndoe would always drop back, allowing the full backs to tuck in close to the centre backs.

The central midfielders would then position themselves in front of the defence and hey presto you have a very effective barrier that challenges the opposition to find space to play in the final third.

This takes organisation, discipline and commitment certainly but it's not rocket science. So why is the current team incapable of doing the same?

I honestly think we have some players with very poor football intelligence.  The ones with good FI to support their playing skills have left us behind!

Edited November 19, 2021 by Davefevs

[BCFC_Dan]

It could be that there aren't actually any specific players he's referring to and he's said it to get a reaction out of all of them.