The Football Regulator

[chinapig]

22 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Links like being the deputy PM of the UAE in Man City's case. You know, just a small link.

Or Newcastle's chairman having no connection with the Saudi government according to the PL but who is claimed to be a sitting member of the government in the LIV case.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just thinking of other cases.

As we know Birmingham are under investigation over whether a former Cambodian diplomat owns their club in secret or not.

However had they been open, it was back in the era of Shaun Harvey in 2016, would he have even sought to bar them? I have my doubts!

Edited April 2, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Dunno if this is the right thread but the wrangling over Parachute Payments continues. Couple of snippets.

[Davefevs]

Promoted Teams with PPs:

22/23: (5 teams with PPs)

Burnley / Sheffield U (likely)

40% likelihood with PPs / 5.3% likelihood w/o PPs

21/22: (5 teams with PP)

Fulham / Bournemouth

40% likelihood with PPs / 5.3% likelihood w/o PPs

20/21: (6 teams with PPs)

Norwich C / Watford

33.3% likelihood with PPs / 5.6% likelihood w/o PPs

19/20: (7 teams with PPs)

Fulham / WBA

28.6% likelihood with PPs / 5.9% likelihood w/o PPs

18/19: (9 teams with PPs - some on 4 year PPs scheme)

Aston V / Norwich C

22.2% likelihood with PPs / 6.7% likelihood w/o PPs

17/18: (6 teams with PPs)

None - but Cardiff C / Fulham had finished receiving PPs the season before

0.0% likelihood with PPs / 16.7% likelihood w/o PPs

16/17: (8 teams with PPs)

Newcastle U

12.5% likelihood with PPs / 12.5% likelihood w/o PPs

15/16: (10 teams with PPs - some teams on 4 year PP scheme

Hull C

10% likelihood with PPs / 14.3% likelihood w/o PPs

 

Totals (8 seasons):

24 promotion places

12 promoted with PPs / 56 with PPs = 21.4% likelihood

12 promoted w/o PPs / 136 w/o PPs = 8.9% likelihood

2.4 times more likely to get promoted with PPs than without!

Could be worse if WBA / Watford or Norwich get into play-offs and gain promotion.

 

[Davefevs]

To add:

of the 24 relegated PL teams - 6 have bounced straight back up in first season back in Champ

of the 24 promoted Champ teams - 8 have come straight back down in first season in PL

 

Further:

If Sheffield Utd go up plus Watford or Norwich, there will be just 4 clubs with PPs next season…the 3 coming down, plus whoever out of Norwich or Watford who don’t make it.  5 clubs if neither of them go up.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Good work Dave! I say good, more like Great!

Wow those numbers are stark and the problem is getting worse. Someone described them as a rocket booster or something in an article a while back, presumably for freshly or recently relegated clubs. 

Although I thought Cardiff and Fulham were entering their final year of Parachute Payments as they were relegated in 2013-14 when the 4 year rule still seemed to hold. It changed a few times over the years.

Norwich's had run out by 2018-19 too, think the 2 year scheme for a yoyo club had kicked in by then. They received in 2016-17 and 2017-18.

Either way a great way to have negated advantages would be to have only included an Solidarity Payments portion in FFP and revenue returns.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

Norwich were still entitled to 3 years PPs on their relegation in 15/16:

 

They’ve received £133m in PPs in 7 seasons, rises to £167m next season if they don’t go up.

In terms of my initial list, Burnley were also promoted in 15/16 whikst getting PPs!

So it’s 13 / 56 = 23.2% with

and 11 / 136 = 8.1%

almost 3x as likely!

Light green shading = promoted with PPs

Dark green shading = promoted with PPs first season back.

Pink shading = relegated back to Champ in first season.

Think it’s fair to say that the last 5 years we are seeing more clubs with PPs get promoted (10).  And we seeing many come straight back down (7) in 4 years.  If Forest and / or Bournemouth come down, that could be 8 or 9.

It’s really becoming a 24 team PL, where 20 get to play each season.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Although Norwich's accounts for 2019 do seem to be not indicating it. Article from 2019 suggests they did not receive that year. Different sites say different things I guess.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/norwich-city-loss-38-million-profit-parachute-payments-a9185746.html

Anyway irrespective of the odd individual case who may or may not, they're a huge issue for competitiveness at this level.

[beaverface]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

To add:

of the 24 relegated PL teams - 6 have bounced straight back up in first season back in Champ

of the 24 promoted Champ teams - 8 have come straight back down in first season in PL

 

Further:

If Sheffield Utd go up plus Watford or Norwich, there will be just 4 clubs with PPs next season…the 3 coming down, plus whoever out of Norwich or Watford who don’t make it.  5 clubs if neither of them go up.

I'd be interested to see how many relegated sides bounced straight back up before Parachute Payments were introduced.

Normally when a team gets relegated from the Championship into League 1, or from League 1 to League 2, they're usually the favourites to come straight back up, which kind of indicates that relegated sides are fairly strong regardless of PP's.

 

(ps. I'm not in favour of PP's, I'm just intrigued by the above question)

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Although Norwich's accounts for 2019 do seem to be not indicating it. Article from 2019 suggests they did not receive that year. Different sites say different things I guess.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/norwich-city-loss-38-million-profit-parachute-payments-a9185746.html

Anyway irrespective of the odd individual case who may or may not, they're a huge issue for competitiveness at this level.

You are right.

I am wrong.

I need to think “seasons not accounting years”!

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, beaverface said:

I'd be interested to see how many relegated sides bounced straight back up before Parachute Payments were introduced.

Normally when a team gets relegated from the Championship into League 1, or from League 1 to League 2, they're usually the favourites to come straight back up, which kind of indicates that relegated sides are fairly strong regardless of PP's.

 

(ps. I'm not in favour of PP's, I'm just intrigued by the above question)

PPs came in for 2006/07 season.

I’m not gonna trawl back before that, but definitely a trend that as as the PP amount shifted from £48m / 4 years to £90m / 3 years (end of 15/16 season) we have seen more clubs going back up with PPs.

Burnley and Hull knew what they were playing for in 2015/16…promotion that season guaranteeing £75m over the next 2 seasons, £90m over 3 years if they stayed up for one year.  All on top of the TV money they’d get in the PL whilst they were still there.  QPR were a basket case as we know, and eventually got fined.

Before that, PPs started with £16m / 2 years and we saw less yo-yo’ing.

These are the teams that have played in the Championship that have benefitted from PPs / PL TV Deal.

Southampton and Crystal Palace are the only promoted team to have survived 10+ years.  Southampton now under threat.

Leicester have lasted 9 years.  Under threat!

Norwich are the biggest yo-yo’er…4 times each way.  Could make a 5th promotion this season.

Leices

[shahanshahan]

Karen Carney has today published her independent review into the future of domestic women’s football, which was commissioned by the DCMSt following a recommendation from the FLR

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/raising-the-bar-reframing-the-opportunity-in-womens-football
https://thefsa.org.uk/news/fsa-response-to-carneys-womens-game-review/

Some specific supporter related recommendations:

All clubs should ensure that the recommendations in the Football Governance White Paper with regards to fan engagement should be delivered on with meaningful representation for fans of the women’s team.

Following the introduction of FA licensing requirements for clubs to have ticketing policies, the FA should review these annually and clubs should actively seek feedback from their fans on how these should be adapted.

Women’s Super League and Women’s Championship clubs should each implement a supporter liaison officer.

The FA should urgently address the lack of diversity across the women’s game – in both on and off pitch roles.

The FA, Premier League, English Football League and broadcasters should work together to carve out a new dedicated broadcast slot for live women’s football games.

 

[chinapig]

5 minutes ago, shahanshahan said:

Karen Carney has today published her independent review into the future of domestic women’s football, which was commissioned by the DCMSt following a recommendation from the FLR

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/raising-the-bar-reframing-the-opportunity-in-womens-football
https://thefsa.org.uk/news/fsa-response-to-carneys-womens-game-review/

Some specific supporter related recommendations:

All clubs should ensure that the recommendations in the Football Governance White Paper with regards to fan engagement should be delivered on with meaningful representation for fans of the women’s team.

Following the introduction of FA licensing requirements for clubs to have ticketing policies, the FA should review these annually and clubs should actively seek feedback from their fans on how these should be adapted.

Women’s Super League and Women’s Championship clubs should each implement a supporter liaison officer.

The FA should urgently address the lack of diversity across the women’s game – in both on and off pitch roles.

The FA, Premier League, English Football League and broadcasters should work together to carve out a new dedicated broadcast slot for live women’s football games.

 

A good piece from Suzy Wrack on this. Still a lot of questions.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/jul/13/review-womens-football-karen-carney-wsl

[ExiledAjax]

I've skim read it. Honestly, it's even lighter on detail that the fan led review/white paper. I also think there needs to be far more emphasis on not repeating the failures of the men's game, and on creating a distinct product that stands on its own feet.

For example the report talks about learning from the mistakes of the men's game but then recommends allowing the women's game to self-regulate...which is the root cause of the issues in the men's game. There are some improvements - for example it recommends one board across the WSL and WC, and golden shares, but imo it gives with one hand and takes with another 

It talks about allowing women's football to stand alone and self fund...but then recommends that Sky, the FA, the EFL and the PL carve out a special slot for women's football on TV.

I don't know.. it feels lightweight to me.

[Mr Popodopolous]

One for @ExiledAjax to perhaps add more detail and apologies if already a thread on it or coverage.

https://news.sky.com/story/915m-football-new-deal-faces-delay-amid-fears-over-regulator-12966498

[ExiledAjax]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

One for @ExiledAjax to perhaps add more detail and apologies if already a thread on it or coverage.

https://news.sky.com/story/915m-football-new-deal-faces-delay-amid-fears-over-regulator-12966498

The New Deal is crap basically.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

The New Deal is crap basically.

Yeah agreed. It's not as much as the EFL hope for, the whole uncertainty pertaining to Parachute Payments etc.

Found this, about to read it myself but seems interesting.

https://shepwedd.com/knowledge/football-club-governance-case-change-britain

[phantom]

Tracy Crouch has responded to the Kings speach referencing the need to establish the regulator 

[phantom]

The Kings speach in full on this topic 

[phantom]

Another response 

[ExiledAjax]

Yep all good, although there's nothing really added over what was in the whitepaper.

The regulator won't have the full strength recommended by the review, but once it's in place it's powers will only ever expand.

It's a really positive thing and there should be rapid development through 2024, starting with the likely establishment of the shadow IREF in January.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Apologies if already covered but as a club i.e. our hierarchy, are we broadly favourable, broadly negative, non-commital?

We as in clubs won't get a great deal of say I imagine but how do we view it?

[ExiledAjax]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Apologies if already covered but as a club i.e. our hierarchy, are we broadly favourable, broadly negative, non-commital?

We as in clubs won't get a great deal of say I imagine but how do we view it?

We are waiting to be told to change. We are not leading on it or really engaging with it.

So "non-committal" if you want to be generous.

[Mr Popodopolous]

When searching Ken Anderson as he's linked with Reading, I found this article.

https://www.football365.com/news/unfit-and-improper-the-calamity-of-football-league-owners

Individual Clubs and somewhat tighter FFP rules in particular aside, how far forward is the game from this relative nadir?

4.5 years, including 18 months of Pandemic later in how much a better place is the game?

[W-S-M Seagull]

5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

When searching Ken Anderson as he's linked with Reading, I found this article.

https://www.football365.com/news/unfit-and-improper-the-calamity-of-football-league-owners

Individual Clubs and somewhat tighter FFP rules in particular aside, how far forward is the game from this relative nadir?

4.5 years, including 18 months of Pandemic later in how much a better place is the game?

From a fans perspective it's in a terrible state. 

Extortionate ticket prices, vastly over priced football shirts and it costs incredible amounts to watch football on TV. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by W-S-M Seagull

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

From a fans perspective it's in a terrible state. 

Extortionate ticket prices, vastly over priced football shirts and it costs incredible amounts to watch football on TV. 

Yeah don't disagree with much of that. Not exactly the sort of thing a new Regulator would intervene on but it is rather expensive here yeah especially for POTD tickets.

[chinapig]

Looks like things are not going well. Self interest and greed are setting Premier League clubs against each other, the EFL and the government. The Independent Regulator needs strong powers to put a stop to this.

This part stands out in particular:

The meeting also ended without a resolution on what has been called the New Deal for football. For two years, the Premier League has been under pressure from government to give more money to the EFL to help with the financial stress many lower-league clubs are under. That money has yet to materialise, with the Premier League preferring a broader deal that restructures a number of elements of the English game, from controls on spending to the structure of the Bristol Street Motors Trophy.

Expectations had been raised (including from within the Premier League) that the offer would be finalised this week. Instead, there was three hours of debate on the topic in which every club aired their opinions and some said the proposals were unworkable for them. The same proposals that have been mooted, in some form, for more than a year.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/nov/23/premier-league-appears-fractured-as-external-pressures-continue-to-mount

[Mr Popodopolous]

47 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Looks like things are not going well. Self interest and greed are setting Premier League clubs against each other, the EFL and the government. The Independent Regulator needs strong powers to put a stop to this.

This part stands out in particular:

The meeting also ended without a resolution on what has been called the New Deal for football. For two years, the Premier League has been under pressure from government to give more money to the EFL to help with the financial stress many lower-league clubs are under. That money has yet to materialise, with the Premier League preferring a broader deal that restructures a number of elements of the English game, from controls on spending to the structure of the Bristol Street Motors Trophy.

Expectations had been raised (including from within the Premier League) that the offer would be finalised this week. Instead, there was three hours of debate on the topic in which every club aired their opinions and some said the proposals were unworkable for them. The same proposals that have been mooted, in some form, for more than a year.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/nov/23/premier-league-appears-fractured-as-external-pressures-continue-to-mount

Thanks China.

Sounds like many of the lessons of Covid are either being forgotten or are slowly fading from view.

The upsurge of spending by many clubs this summer at Championship level is a notable example.

Sure FFP is tighter and yes there are more righteous Owners Tests at EFL level in particular..Parry certainly superior to Harvey.

C-..The Governance improved in some areas but still must do better in significant respects.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

I honestly think the EFL should be flexible and pragmatic up to a point, but stick to their red lines and if needed wait it out for an Independent Regulator to impose a solution.

Or would even a bad deal be an improvement on the present ie narrow the gap?

[Mr Popodopolous]

Let's take two clubs, two hypothetical clubs where the only real difference is Solidarity vs Year 1 Parachute Payments. Central awards from the EFL remain the same.

Club A are a regular Championship club, Club B are freshly relegated from the PL and let's say the Parachute vs Solidarity gap plus Central awards cancelling each other out is £40m to £20m.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous