Goalkeeper Conundrum

[Davefevs]

21 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

As always, good analysis Dave. Why has Bentley not been able to distribute like Max? Is he being lazy in his application to his work? I have to say I'm not convinced by Bentley and I think he gets a lot of leeway because of his 'worldies', although I'm not convinced that a lot of them don't come from his all round play.  With Max, I'd like to think, buy now, he'd have shown why he should be a first team keeper. I like him but is he too comfortable being an occasional No 1? I also think it should be now or never for him. If not I'm happy for him and Bentley to be moved on in the summer.

It’s really tough, but I’ve witnessed a real decline in Bentley’s distribution.  I sense the players frustration with it too, hence Kalas’s comments.

I hope he can find a way to get it back.

[The Swan and Cemetery]

I think Max’s kicking is better, but more likely to take a risk, eg shortish balls into feet where an opponent might not be that far away, forcing midfield players to have the skill levels and confidence to play first time balls to create space. DB generally less likely to give the ball away in a goal scoring position, but by kicking it further, not more accurately. To me it looks like Nige being prepared to take a step back to take a step forward and think we’ve seen that elsewhere with some of his selections. A. Do you want to be on the bus? B. Let’s play more bravely and develop the relevant skills. Both A and B may result in some poor results for now, but hopefully build towards something far better.

Is Max definitely the answer? There’s a fair chance he isn’t, but don’t agree with a view that says DB clearly number 1 - think his worldie rate has declined and increasingly prone to making saves that push the ball directly to opponents. Don’t think he can complain about being dropped and Max needs a bit more time, but needs to improve (along with the defence). 

Not a statistically robust sample but league games this season:

Dan average score: F1.13 - A1.52, 1.17 points per game

Max: 2.00 - 2.80, 1.20 

Don’t think either goals scored (eg Antoine returning) or conceded (eg Baker/Atkinson out) are solely down to Max, neither keepers’ results indicate one massively more deserving than the other. Clearly we can judge their performances beyond somewhat dubious stats and I’d be sticking with Max, for now. 

 

[Rich]

Some people are attributing our improved play with the introduction of Max O'Leary in goal, with his perceived better distribution, allowing us to play a passing game and also play further up the pitch. This also happens to coincide roughly with the reintroduction and match fitness of Antoine Semenyo. This I believe has also allowed us to play further up the pitch, with his ability to keep the ball and actually trouble the opposition defenders. We now have a situation where it's not as comfortable for the opposition defenders to play their football out from the back, resulting in more hurried clearances and less possession in our half, allowing us to play slightly higher and allow the keeper more room to bring the ball out. Would Bentley have also benefitted from Semenyo's return to the team?

I've previously stated my thoughts on Max, which I will repeat. He seems like the kid who was too nice and not quite good enough to play as an outfield player. So his youth team manager, who just also happened to be his Dad, bought him some GK gloves and picked him as the teams GK. Since then, his experience as an outfield player allowed him to progress in the game, as the game changed. He received coaching and became reasonably proficient as a keeper. Sadly, there are other attributes required to be a good keeper, these cannot be coached, no matter what and Max lacks these. Those attributes are the desire to stop/get the ball at all costs, positivity and bravery. This allows you to be more dominant when dealing with the opposition and their forays into the box. 

As a keeper, you are in one of the most favoured positions, when it comes to making decisions. That is, usually because the play is in front of you and you can see the movement of all players, unlike a defender that has to follow the movement of someone that peels off and makes runs from behind you, so frequently looking in other directions and possibly wrong footed by that movement. The GK also has the advantage of being able to catch, divert or punch the ball with your hands, sounds obvious I know but, even a 6ft keeper can reach an extra 18", enough to give him a distinct advantage over an attacker. 

I have watched all of Max's performances (at home) since his first introduction and, he's still making the same non decisions now as he did years ago when jumping like a startled cat. This after watching a ball being delivered into the six yard area from out wide, I think I first noticed this trait against Stoke and believe I brought it up at the time. The attacker has covered more ground than Max has needed to, yet still been allowed a free header without fear of being challenged by the keeper. I would say that in his recent performances, he has had the opportunity to at least challenge for the ball on 7 occasions where we have conceded a goal and he hasn't opted to use his advantages on any of those occasions. Out of those 7 opportunities, giving him the benefit of doubt, he should have stopped 5 of those attempts on goal, I think its' 16 goals now in 6 games. Not good enough, even with some blame put on defenders. 

Please bring the hesitant Bentley back into the team ASAP.

[Davefevs]

@Richappreciate your posts from a keeper’s perspective.

[Roger Red Hat]

16 minutes ago, Rich said:

Please bring the hesitant Bentley back into the team ASAP.

Do you think we would benefit from recruiting a new 1st choice keeper?

[Davefevs]

Just now, Roger Red Hat said:

Do you think we would benefit from recruiting a new 1st choice keeper?

Mission for our recruitment team should they wish to accept it:

Find a younger version of Niki Maenpaa

Basically a good “big-un”.

[Rich]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@Richappreciate your posts from a keeper’s perspective.

Let's not get carried away Dave. I was a young keeper as a schoolboy but mostly a frustrated outfield player, (quite useful). I also played between the sticks in local amateur football but, only on odd occasions, enough to know when to come and claim a ball and where to position myself as the game is in progress. My real love is following BCFC which mostly ruled out playing on Saturdays. 

I have however paid particular attention to the art of goalkeeping over quite a long time now and having played that position enough, I feel it allows me a little more incite into the attributes required and what I'd expect a reasonably skilled keeper to achieve.

But I am by no means an ex pro.

[Rich]

7 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Do you think we would benefit from recruiting a new 1st choice keeper?

Yes I do. I feel max will only ever be a stand in at this level and should have many more games under his belt by now, most probably in the third or fourth tier. As Dave pointed out a young Maenpaa or similar. Rocking horse shit and hens teeth spring to mind though.

[shelts]

Nailed on Bents will be back in Saturday 

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, shelts said:

Nailed on Bents will be back in Saturday 

Let’s hope he’s not nailed on his line

[Malago]

What we need is a tall goalkeeper who commands his area , but is also a great shot stopper and has good distribution.  At least that’s what my beautiful, long legged, well blessed up stairs, girlfriend tells me.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Malago

[richyy66]

1 hour ago, shelts said:

Nailed on Bents will be back in Saturday 

Hope you are right mate...Don't feel as confident with Max in goal.

[The Bard]

On 25/01/2022 at 22:52, GrahamC said:

Can see the advantages of both, personally I’d persevere with Max but those thinking we will be bringing in a new keeper this summer when both of these 2 are under contract beyond this season are dreaming.

Unless of course Bentley leaves..

 

[The Bard]

Interesting how people see this.  Bentley is more prone to absolute clangers but at the same time can pull off world class saves.  O'Leary is much better with the ball at his feet (or at least has been this season).  I have no problem with them being given runs of games each like they have so that at the end of the season both have had a proper go in goal.  We are in a bit of a nothing season so it must be utilised so there is clarity ongoing.

Do we look to offload Bentley in the summer to recoup some transfer fee, reduce our wage bill and replace from League 1 for example?  That is essentially what we are doing in other positions. I think this is the most likely scenario so at some point Bentley will come back into the team to stick him in the shop window.

Dealing with crosses is a bit of a chicken and egg scenario.  Is Max indecisive because of the frankly shocking defending in front of him or has his indecisiveness fed forward to the defenders?  Is this inability to deal with crosses an unintended consequence of playing a looser style of football? That is what Nige and the coaches will be thinking about.  It feels to me that changing Max now would be counterproductive for 2 reasons.

1.  Scapegoating Max for a problem in front of him that a change of keeper will do nothing to solve.

2. Negatively impact on our style of play as Bentley simply isn't as good as Max at this.  

The solution to this is a lot of very boring repetitive training on defending corners and hoping we can get more dominant players into the team soon.

[cityfan1958]

Sorry if this point has already been made, not read the whole thread. 
Is this not more about our finances than anything else. Bents is probably our most saleable asset, and given other clubs are not ‘ biting our arm off’ for the other high earners we would like to move on, we will have to sell him in the summer. I.M.O. this is about getting Max experience as he is likely to be our number one next season.  Which of the two is the better keeper is irrelevant, it’s about Max being of an acceptable standard.

PS I know it’s part of football, but talking about ‘selling’ another human being just feels wrong.

[Carey 6]

We'll get less money for Bentley if he's out of the team than we will if he is in it. 

A squad player will go for less than a starting one no?

Doesn't make sense for him to be out of the squad due to a possible transfer situation, especially with a keeper - a position where you rarely see injuries. 

Bentley is better than Max. We should play our best players in every game until we are mathematically safe.

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, The Bard said:

Unless of course Bentley leaves..

 

Just can’t see any interest in the current financial climate, especially as he is currently second choice here, though of course that could alter soon.

[cityfan1958]

Bent’s standard will be well known to any club who might be interested, he is a senior long standing keeper.  I can’t imagine, come the summer, him not playing for a period will not matter. Particularly if he plays the last handful of games.  What we will have is an experienced ready made replacement at the start of next season, or if Max does come up to standard we know we will have to replace during the summer, rather than find that out 10 games into next season.

[ashton_fan]

Max should be still improving at his level of age/experience while Bents is probably at his best now, I think maybe Nige is giving Max a run to see if he can up his game given more minutes on the pitch, if it works then he can sell Bents either now or at the end of the season and use the funds gained on a needed CB. Max may come out more for crosses if he's given more coaching in that area, it's definitely where he need to improve. We have seen how Antoine is now adding goalscoring to his skills which he couldn't do until recently, young players have time to overcome weaknesses in their game. It hasn't helped Max that our current CB's are relatively inexperienced at Championship level with the exception of Kalas.

[shelts]

15 hours ago, richyy66 said:

Hope you are right mate...Don't feel as confident with Max in goal.

I like Max and he’s tidy but I’m with you I’m not convinced, hope he proves me wrong 

[RedM]

18 hours ago, shelts said:

Nailed on Bents will be back in Saturday 

Max has done the pre match press conference. Not sure what to read into that only to guess if he was putting Bentley back would Max be doing that?

Could always be a red herring, so Max could possibly pick up a little niggle between now and Saturday.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, RedM said:

Max has done the pre match press conference. Not sure what to read into that only to guess if he was putting Bentley back would Max be doing that?

Could always be a red herring, so Max could possibly pick up a little niggle between now and Saturday.

It’s happened before with Massengo, probably others.

[Antman]

So is Max really 10 feet tall or Jay very very tiny and just massaging his back here?

[Rich]

Don't know where the theory comes from that with extra games and coaching, that Max will get any better. He must have had at least nine years of coaching and training, to be able to play as a keeper and still has the same faults as when he made his debut.

This sounds like a character assassination of the poor lad, there is no intention for that on my part, I'm just trying to bring some logic to this discussion. He made his debut in 2013 and has played a total of about 120 games, an average of 13 per season. 63 at National league level, 30 at league 1 and approx 26 at championship.  15 of those were in 2018/19, 3 in 20/21 and the other eight this season. There's a reason he hasn't held down a number 1 in those nine years here.

I think people put too much emphasis on the ability to kick a football and that Max is better than Bentley. Max is now benefitting from playing in a team that has moved up the pitch and now plays more football in the opposition half. I believe this is more to do with the outfield players being able to keep possession, rather than the keeper directing his clearances more accurately. Max has the benefit therefore of more space and time from which to make those passes. Bentley never had that luxury as we were at least 5 Metres further back to our goal. Introducing players that are happy in possession and actually keep it longer, such as Scott and Semenyo, allows us more time in the other half, rather than the ball constantly coming back at us through lost possession.

It cannot possibly be a policy to make the keeper stand on his line and be responsive to an attempt on goal, as opposed to being proactive and stopping that attempt on goal, you must compete at every opportunity. Max unfortunately does not take those opportunities and there have been many, to actually stop the attempt on goal, choosing to react to the attempt, instead. It would be like a defender waiting to stop a cross, shot or whatever, hoping that the cross/shot would not reach it's target. 

Fielding was not the best kicker of the ball but, wasn't he ever brave. He would rarely let an attacker get an unchallenged attempt on goal and didn't hesitate to put them under pressure, though he lacked a few inches to be a top keeper. Basso with his positivity in coming for crosses would actually put off the attacker, sometimes he'd cock up but, get away with it as it confused the striker. Maenpaa was not as mobile or agile, but had a presence and would claim everything he possibly could in his area. Sadly, Max lacks those attributes and no end of coaching or experience will make up for those missing qualities.

[shelts]

6 hours ago, RedM said:

Max has done the pre match press conference. Not sure what to read into that only to guess if he was putting Bentley back would Max be doing that?

Could always be a red herring, so Max could possibly pick up a little niggle between now and Saturday.

It is all pointing towards Max keeping his spot 

[tin]

11 hours ago, shelts said:

It is all pointing towards Max keeping his spot 

Quite right, too, IMO. 

• In Max's five Championship appearances, he averages 39.4 passes a game with 8 long balls
• Compare that with Bentley, who averaged 29.9 passes and 9.4 long balls from his 23 league appearances.

To me, that indicates Max is more comfortable on the ball than Bentley and his inclusion has resulted in us being less direct/more attractive to watch. It's not a case of who's the better individual; it's about who's better for the team and it's pretty clear for all to see why Max appears to be that man.

I also expect Bentley to fetch us a fee in the summer, so Max's run of games is also about succession planning with an eye on the future.  

15 hours ago, billywedlock said:

Give me Basso every time . When , in history , has a keeper of ours ever had the whole ground  singing his name . The year he was player of the season was exceptional . So my benchmark is that . Bentley was sold by Brentford and Max has issues . Not saying our priority is a keeper , far from . But I’m the future we do need a new Basso . Where we all believe . 

Basso was good; Mercer sets the bar for me. 

[maxjak]

18 hours ago, RedM said:

Max has done the pre match press conference. Not sure what to read into that only to guess if he was putting Bentley back would Max be doing that?

Could always be a red herring, so Max could possibly pick up a little niggle between now and Saturday.

Did I hear correctly?   During his pre match presser Max stated that when his loan at Shrewsbury was cut short, and he came back     "I wasn't allowed in the training ground for 4 or 5 months?"  I don't get it, and the journo didn't follow that remark up?  Presumably he meant that No one was allowed in the training ground during Covid?   

[Super]

Bizarre if Max is starting tomorrow. Not sure how many more mistakes it will take for him to be dropped. People go on about his kicking it was shocking against Luton.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Super

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, maxjak said:

Did I hear correctly?   During his pre match presser Max stated that when his loan at Shrewsbury was cut short, and he came back     "I wasn't allowed in the training ground for 4 or 5 months?"  I don't get it, and the journo didn't follow that remark up?  Presumably he meant that No one was allowed in the training ground during Covid?   

Basically as football was postponed, league one eventually curtailed , and because of bubbles he couldn’t join back in with City.  Although dispensation was given for clubs to use returning loan players, there was a rule that they had to use any current squad member who had played at least one league game first.  We already had Bents, Niki and Rene, so Max wasn’t required.

Szmodics, Morrell, Walsh and one other whose name escapes me (Edit: Moore) were brought into the training bubble eventually, in case things got really bad in outfield positions once games started again.  None of them actually made a squad as Freddie Hinds was ahead of them based on the rules, courtesy of a 15 min sub appearance v Brentford (a).

[maxjak]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Basically as football was postponed, league one eventually curtailed , and because of bubbles he couldn’t join back in with City.  Although dispensation was given for clubs to use returning loan players, there was a rule that they had to use any current squad member who had played at least one league game first.  We already had Bents, Niki and Rene, so Max wasn’t required.

Szmodics, Morrell, Walsh and one other whose name escapes me (Edit: Moore) were brought into the training bubble eventually, in case things got really bad in outfield positions once games started again.  None of them actually made a squad as Freddie Hinds was ahead of them based on the rules, courtesy of a 15 min sub appearance v Brentford (a).

Thanks Dave............you are undoubtedly..........the default voice of reason