Who's our defensive coach at the moment?

[spudski]

Are we still using one?

Like NP I was totally frustrated watching how easy it was to score against us from crosses/set pieces.

Is it the players fault...or are they being asked to defend/set up like that?

Yes...it's arguable that out GK could have done better for both...however, how do you expect to win a header when marking as they do?

How we set up to mark for the second goal was so inept.

Not one of our players gave themselves a chance to actually challenge and win the ball.

All in a line on the 18 yard box, 18 yards of space for the cross to come into, and the opposition able to run into that space, nothing stopping them. Only have to concentrate on heading the ball goalwards under no pressure.

We are lined up in-between them. Offering no blocks on runs, and having to defend with back to ball, facing goalwards, instead of away from goal. Giving yourself the hardest possible chance of defending the ball, winning it or clearing it.

No one looking to attack the actual ball...just running back between the opposition, no real attempt to block runs or win the header. I've used this word before regarding defending...it's ' symbolic'.

It's basic stuff. 

I really don't understand how professional footballers are making such basic mistakes. 

 

[Davefevs]

Response to the thread title: don’t know…Pat Mountain was doing defensive set-pieces last season.

Back on December I watched every corner we’d defended all season….we conceded 1 goal all season, O’Hare’s for Coventry, where we actually won the first ball, but it dropped to him.

We lined up with 4 across the 6 yard box zonally, typically:

• Weimann - corner of 6 yd box, ready to engage a short corner, or the low cross
• Martin - level with near post, his job to win the near post corner
• Kalas / Atkinson (or Baker) - mid goals / back post line

we then had the 6 other players picking up / blocking.

It was successful.

What has changed?

In some games where we’ve conceded:

• Martin being off the pitch
• 10 men (King sending off at QPR, Vyner physio last night), so one less player to deal with it.

But the other factor, might be O’Leary.

I generally think we have lost “inches” and “markers”, e.g. a bit if height lost in Baker and Atkinson, and we have a few more players on the pitch not great at marking / challenging aerially in our own box.  It’s easy to say, why is Massengo marking player x, but in the 4 zonal, 6 markers, he’s gonna have to be a marker.  Depending on who gets blocked off etc, can leave him exposed.

We therefore need to be smarter, e.g. holding, blocking, setting a different line etc.

Same principles for free-kicks.  Did we need two in the wall last night?

 

 

 

[spudski]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Response to the thread title: don’t know…Pat Mountain was doing defensive set-pieces last season.

Back on December I watched every corner we’d defended all season….we conceded 1 goal all season, O’Hare’s for Coventry, where we actually won the first ball, but it dropped to him.

We lined up with 4 across the 6 yard box zonally, typically:

• Weimann - corner of 6 yd box, ready to engage a short corner, or the low cross
• Martin - level with near post, his job to win the near post corner
• Kalas / Atkinson (or Baker) - mid goals / back post line

we then had the 6 other players picking up / blocking.

It was successful.

What has changed?

In some games where we’ve conceded:

• Martin being off the pitch
• 10 men (King sending off at QPR, Vyner physio last night), so one less player to deal with it.

But the other factor, might be O’Leary.

I generally think we have lost “inches” and “markers”, e.g. a bit if height lost in Baker and Atkinson, and we have a few more players on the pitch not great at marking / challenging aerially in our own box.  It’s easy to say, why is Massengo marking player x, but in the 4 zonal, 6 markers, he’s gonna have to be a marker.  Depending on who gets blocked off etc, can leave him exposed.

We therefore need to be smarter, e.g. holding, blocking, setting a different line etc.

Same principles for free-kicks.  Did we need two in the wall last night?

 

 

 

The idea of a combination as above is far more effective imo. The zonal markers can concentrate on one thing...winning the ball. The markers, blocking, impeding run etc.

The way we set up at the moment, gives no one the opportunity to simply concentrate on winning the ball.

The majority as it stands, are purely looking at their man, symbolically marking him, with ineffective effort at blocking, impeding, or even trying to win a header. Looking at some of them when defending, not once do they look at the ball or delivery. Just their man. You simply can't defend effectively that way.

[maxjak]

I appreciate we have lost Baker and Atkinson, which has contributed massively to our defensive woes, would it not be wise to bring in a specialist defensive coach to drill, drill and drill our set ups at crosses and dead ball sittuations? NP keeps bemoaning our inadequacies after matches, but can't he attempt to be more proactive and manage the problem

i know once the players cross that white line he cannot legislate for individual mistakes, but the set up at times is distressingly naive?

[GrahamC]

May seem a simplistic thing to say, but surely this should be Curtis Fleming now?

He was an experienced defender who played a lot of football at a decent standard so logic suggests it should be him to me.

Was thinking last night under GJ we had Jamie McCombe who for all his limitations was the first ball centre half we had lacked since Shaun Taylor retired & after that Flint, of course.

If we aren’t convinced by Klose this needs to be a priority next summer, alongside working with Atkinson to improve his game.

[!james]

We've got 2 defensive coaches at the moment...

 

 

[Cowshed]

35 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Response to the thread title: don’t know…Pat Mountain was doing defensive set-pieces last season.

Back on December I watched every corner we’d defended all season….we conceded 1 goal all season, O’Hare’s for Coventry, where we actually won the first ball, but it dropped to him.

We lined up with 4 across the 6 yard box zonally, typically:

• Weimann - corner of 6 yd box, ready to engage a short corner, or the low cross
• Martin - level with near post, his job to win the near post corner
• Kalas / Atkinson (or Baker) - mid goals / back post line

we then had the 6 other players picking up / blocking.

It was successful.

What has changed?

In some games where we’ve conceded:

• Martin being off the pitch
• 10 men (King sending off at QPR, Vyner physio last night), so one less player to deal with it.

But the other factor, might be O’Leary.

I generally think we have lost “inches” and “markers”, e.g. a bit if height lost in Baker and Atkinson, and we have a few more players on the pitch not great at marking / challenging aerially in our own box.  It’s easy to say, why is Massengo marking player x, but in the 4 zonal, 6 markers, he’s gonna have to be a marker.  Depending on who gets blocked off etc, can leave him exposed.

We therefore need to be smarter, e.g. holding, blocking, setting a different line etc.

Same principles for free-kicks.  Did we need two in the wall last night?

 

 

 

If you want to use technical terms that is hybrid (zonal and man marking) defending, and a four (four zonal) and (five man marking/blocking). The sixth player is guarding teams going short, but it is still four and five.  I dont watch enough of City to comment, but an answer can be have they altered the four to five thus lacking blockers and teams then attack an area they can overload to create freerer runners to attack balls and mismatches too close to goal.  

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Cowshed

[The Original OTIB]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Are we still using one?

Like NP I was totally frustrated watching how easy it was to score against us from crosses/set pieces.

Is it the players fault...or are they being asked to defend/set up like that?

Yes...it's arguable that out GK could have done better for both...however, how do you expect to win a header when marking as they do?

How we set up to mark for the second goal was so inept.

Not one of our players gave themselves a chance to actually challenge and win the ball.

All in a line on the 18 yard box, 18 yards of space for the cross to come into, and the opposition able to run into that space, nothing stopping them. Only have to concentrate on heading the ball goalwards under no pressure.

We are lined up in-between them. Offering no blocks on runs, and having to defend with back to ball, facing goalwards, instead of away from goal. Giving yourself the hardest possible chance of defending the ball, winning it or clearing it.

No one looking to attack the actual ball...just running back between the opposition, no real attempt to block runs or win the header. I've used this word before regarding defending...it's ' symbolic'.

It's basic stuff. 

I really don't understand how professional footballers are making such basic mistakes. 

 

Need a bigger keeper to command and orgsnise the area. Jamal Blackman would be good, he's massive. Keepers can clean out, largely with impunity. That would be my starting point. Against physical sides you need it. I have no problem with rotating keepers.

[Red Homer]

24 minutes ago, !james said:

We've got 2 defensive coaches at the moment...

 

 

And one of them is dead!

[Simon bristol]

Surely pearson, as a premier league centre back in his playing days and experienced manager ought to be having an input on how we set up defensively?

[Snufflelufagus]

Surely with being an ex decent defender, that Nige is the defensive coach. 

[Cornacix the Druid]

Clive Dunn? 

[BTRFTG]

2 hours ago, !james said:

We've got 2 defensive coaches at the moment...

 

 

Perhaps a new Ouija board might help as clearly one set of instructions isn't getting through..

[RobintheRed Red]

4 hours ago, spudski said:

Are we still using one?

Like NP I was totally frustrated watching how easy it was to score against us from crosses/set pieces.

Is it the players fault...or are they being asked to defend/set up like that?

Yes...it's arguable that out GK could have done better for both...however, how do you expect to win a header when marking as they do?

How we set up to mark for the second goal was so inept.

Not one of our players gave themselves a chance to actually challenge and win the ball.

All in a line on the 18 yard box, 18 yards of space for the cross to come into, and the opposition able to run into that space, nothing stopping them. Only have to concentrate on heading the ball goalwards under no pressure.

We are lined up in-between them. Offering no blocks on runs, and having to defend with back to ball, facing goalwards, instead of away from goal. Giving yourself the hardest possible chance of defending the ball, winning it or clearing it.

No one looking to attack the actual ball...just running back between the opposition, no real attempt to block runs or win the header. I've used this word before regarding defending...it's ' symbolic'.

It's basic stuff. 

I really don't understand how professional footballers are making such basic mistakes. 

 

Yes and two of the smallest guys getting continuously beaten in the air on crosses Dasilva and Massengo teams have sussed this out .

[spudski]

Just now, RobintheRed Red said:

Yes and two of the smallest guys getting continuously beaten in the air on crosses Dasilva and Massengo teams have sussed this out .

As a Scout doing match reports for the opposition, you'd be pointing this weakness out. Weak at defending crosses and set pieces and defending balls into the channels. Get it out wide, cross it in and look for free kicks.

[Lack of Action Man]

First priority defending set pieces or crosses has to be making your opposite man’s life as difficult as possible. By doing that you give yourself the best chance of either winning the ball, or stopping him from doing what he wants with the ball. For that reason, I always get a little bit twitchy with ball-watching zonal marking, like we use.

[The Original OTIB]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Response to the thread title: don’t know…Pat Mountain was doing defensive set-pieces last season.

Back on December I watched every corner we’d defended all season….we conceded 1 goal all season, O’Hare’s for Coventry, where we actually won the first ball, but it dropped to him.

We lined up with 4 across the 6 yard box zonally, typically:

• Weimann - corner of 6 yd box, ready to engage a short corner, or the low cross
• Martin - level with near post, his job to win the near post corner
• Kalas / Atkinson (or Baker) - mid goals / back post line

we then had the 6 other players picking up / blocking.

It was successful.

What has changed?

In some games where we’ve conceded:

• Martin being off the pitch
• 10 men (King sending off at QPR, Vyner physio last night), so one less player to deal with it.

But the other factor, might be O’Leary.

I generally think we have lost “inches” and “markers”, e.g. a bit if height lost in Baker and Atkinson, and we have a few more players on the pitch not great at marking / challenging aerially in our own box.  It’s easy to say, why is Massengo marking player x, but in the 4 zonal, 6 markers, he’s gonna have to be a marker.  Depending on who gets blocked off etc, can leave him exposed.

We therefore need to be smarter, e.g. holding, blocking, setting a different line etc.

Same principles for free-kicks.  Did we need two in the wall last night?

 

 

 

It's been mentioned that Mountain is doing it this season as well, on top of goalkeeper coaching. The evidence suggests that he's failing on both fronts at the moment.

[The Swan and Cemetery]

If we can’t get better at blocking runners and attacking the ball, I’d be tempted to leave 3 up front just to reduce their numbers a bit and leave the mix of our defenders left a bit higher quality than if none, one or two left up top. Noticed recently we leave two up sometimes, which maybe implies Nige is thinking the best way to defend, with current centre back troubles in particular, is to remove some of the opponents from the penalty area. 

[The Original OTIB]

6 minutes ago, The Swan and Cemetery said:

If we can’t get better at blocking runners and attacking the ball, I’d be tempted to leave 3 up front just to reduce their numbers a bit and leave the mix of our defenders left a bit higher quality than if none, one or two left up top. Noticed recently we leave two up sometimes, which maybe implies Nige is thinking the best way to defend, with current centre back troubles in particular, is to remove some of the opponents from the penalty area. 

Indeed, did that against Cardiff. 

[Davefevs]

First time I’ve really watched the goals back.

Do we need Semenyo and Scott in a mini-wall?

Do we need Weimann, Martin and O’Dowda in front of their first man….surely two is enough?

Kalas has already lost his marker, as has Vyner, both wrong side, as has Pring.

Then….

 

…why does O’Dowda run towards the ball, whilst his man (the goalscorer) moved towards the 6 yard box.

Chris Martin needs to be in amongst the group of markers, he’s wasted there.

Shocking.

[Red-Robbo]

I think I've found a picture of our defensive coach getting ready to coach our set piece routines:

[spudski]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

First time I’ve really watched the goals back.

Do we need Semenyo and Scott in a mini-wall?

Do we need Weimann, Martin and O’Dowda in front of their first man….surely two is enough?

Kalas has already lost his marker, as has Vyner, both wrong side, as has Pring.

Then….

 

…why does O’Dowda run towards the ball, whilst his man (the goalscorer) moved towards the 6 yard box.

Chris Martin needs to be in amongst the group of markers, he’s wasted there.

Shocking.

Thanks for posting the pics Dave, it just shows how bad we set up. Watching it in real time, it's even worse when watching the movement.

I've been surprised on how little it's been spoken about on here tbh. It's glaringly obvious.

[JoeAman08]

Think it is as simple as we have no size. Add to that only Kalas is really a ball winner and that isn’t his strongest role. Martin helps but he isn’t the tallest either.
 

Then O’Leary is not the type to dominate his area. Bentley not great either but a bit more useful in that regard. Then there is the balance of being better there but not as good in possession. 
 

It is just showing us what we already know. The squad is not balanced yet. I am sure that NP not only wants to get better players but also bigger players. Need to have a mix of the technical players with the bullies. We can‘t really address it too much at the minute. Klose was/is training with us, that helps if he signs. Getting Atkinson fit and working on adding a bit more muscle to him helps. Tanner not big but not small and is aggressive and will put his body on the line. Good athlete too that will help. 
 

We just need to see this season out. I would keep it how it is as we are playing some good football which will be helpful when we get the players in that we need. 

[The Bard]

There's been a lot of criticism of MOL for this goal but that shows how much is down to the shambles in front of him.  

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

why does O’Dowda run towards the ball, whilst his man (the goalscorer) moved towards the 6 yard box.

Chris Martin needs to be in amongst the group of markers, he’s wasted there.

Shocking.

Doesn't get any better if you roll it on, it's looks like it's only Luton players anywhere near playing the ball. City players all chasing back watching.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

On that 2nd goal O'Dowda was pushed in the back by Naismith and had to put his hands on the turf to stop himself falling over, and then pushed in the back by Adebayo as the ball came in. Ref looked like he was looking right at it and did nothing.

The push is before the ball comes in by Naismith.

 

he then gets caught ball-watching.  Whether Adebayo gives him a nudge or not, it wasn’t enough to cause him to run towards the ball.  It’s not a stumble, or anything like that.

 

 

it still doesn’t excuse why he then ran towards the ball, not tracking his man.

 

[Lew-T]

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

Doesn't get any better if you roll it on, it's looks like it's only Luton players anywhere near playing the ball. City players all chasing back watching.

I don’t understand why Weimann, O’Dowda and Martin are there? Completely in no mans land.

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I thought he looked a bit off balance and couldn't turn properly to run back. But either way, that big striker was gone after the shove on O'Dowda.

It was a poor goal to concede but I don't get how the ref lets that happen.

Because it happened before the free kick was taken, when it seems to be fair-game in the refs eyes…unlike on a corner when a ref might intervene to “split players up”.  I’d like to see us shoving their players away from where they want to be.

[1960maaan]

11 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

I don’t understand why Weimann, O’Dowda and Martin are there? Completely in no mans land.

If you look at @Davefevs post further up you can see why they end up there.
I get covering the front of the group, ball comes in low you can clear. But 3 of them and all 3 anticipate something that doesn't come. They end up being in no position to help.

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

First time I’ve really watched the goals back.

Do we need Semenyo and Scott in a mini-wall?

Do we need Weimann, Martin and O’Dowda in front of their first man….surely two is enough?

Kalas has already lost his marker, as has Vyner, both wrong side, as has Pring.

Then….

 

…why does O’Dowda run towards the ball, whilst his man (the goalscorer) moved towards the 6 yard box.

Chris Martin needs to be in amongst the group of markers, he’s wasted there.

Shocking.

With the 2 in the Wall , that's 5 players contributing nothing. Must admit I didn't spot this at the time, but it basically means 5 defenders marking 7 forwards. Madness.

[Lew-T]

15 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

If you look at @Davefevs post further up you can see why they end up there.
I get covering the front of the group, ball comes in low you can clear. But 3 of them and all 3 anticipate something that doesn't come. They end up being in no position to help.

With the 2 in the Wall , that's 5 players contributing nothing. Must admit I didn't spot this at the time, but it basically means 5 defenders marking 7 forwards. Madness.

Do you need 3 there though for a potential clearance? I don’t understand the thinking. You see a man, you pick him and make it as difficult as possible.

Martin shouldn’t be at the front anyway, with his presence he should be man marking. I actually feel for Kalas there, he’s completely surrounded in white shirts with no real help.