Vyner - scapegoated

[IAmNick]

2 minutes ago, Leveller said:

Fevs is right. The scorer clearly pulled away from Kalas.  Vyner was the spare man and could have followed him, theoretically, but it all happened in the space of half a second.

Sure, but either way as the ball comes in and he's in this position:

You have to be disappointed he has a free volley on the turn 2 seconds later. Rightly or wrongly Vyner is the one of them who is watching him, while Kalas watches the ball come in (and goes towards it?)

Outstanding finish, but someone needed to be in his face.

[Davefevs]

55 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Think this is the clip people are using to say it's his fault:

Not sure I agree it's his fault but I do think he could have challenged more or made a bit more of an effort - definitely doesn't just go for him though, so a bit unfair to single him out.

The ball travelled about 70 yards past our entire team, loads of them could have probably done more.

I’m not saying Vyner couldn’t have done better (e.g. helped Kalas out), but it’s Kalas’s man, and he’s wandered off.  Nobody is giving Kalas any stick, it’s aimed purely at Vyner…and that unjustified.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Davefevs

[spudski]

34 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m not saying Vyner couldn’t have done better (e.g. helped Kalas out), but it’s Kalas’s man, and he’s wandered off.  Nobody is giving Kalas any stick, it’s aimed purely at Vyner…and that unjustified.

Both me and Harry criticised Kalas and Vyner for not marking their men properly in another thread. Both got caught ball watching, whilst the men they were defending created space for themselves by hanging back from going into the 18 yard box. Creating space and a better angle to receive.

However...this isn't the first time with Vyner. For all the good he does in games, it's undone when he switches off...and it costs us. When defending crosses he's a liability. Weak...too casual, not assertive, doesn't command, no presence, and switches off.

I get the impression he thinks he's showing composure...he's not...it's lackadaisical imo.

Edited January 31, 2022 by spudski

[The Swan and Cemetery]

32 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m not saying Vyner couldn’t have done better (e.g. helped Kalas out), but it’s Kalas’s man, and he’s wandered off.  Nobody is giving Kalas any stick, it’s aimed purely at Vyner…and that unjustified.

Think it’s okay to say player A rarely makes mistakes and therefore has more in the bank than player B, who makes more, but not reasonable to pick out player B in an incident when player A just as culpable. As a min, the ref, Pring, Semenyo (made a better run?), Massengo (didn’t really need to join in?) Williams, Weimann, Cundy, Kalas, Vyner and O’Leary could probably have done better in some way, but none of them really disastrous individual mistakes. Added together, plus Preston doing very well (defender tracked back, quick ball to the right, great cross, great finish), it resulted in a goal. Things to learn as always, but a team goal given up, not an individual error. 

[redsocks]

Sorry to say Zac is just not good enough for this division.i think in the summer we need a good clear out.not sure who will go but time will tell.

[KegCity]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Both me and Harry criticised Kalas and Vyner for not marking their men properly in another thread. Both got caught ball watching, whilst the men they were defending created space for themselves by hanging back from going into the 18 yard box. Creating space and a better angle to receive.

However...this isn't the first time with Vyner. For all the good he does in games, it's undone when he switches off...and it costs us. When defending crosses he's a liability. Weak...too casual, not assertive, doesn't command, no presence, and switches off.

I get the impression he thinks he's showing composure...he's not...it's lackadaisical imo.

It isn’t the first time for either of them. Both been suspect when it comes to marking since last season.

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, KegCity said:

It isn’t the first time for either of them. Both been suspect when it comes to marking since last season.

I think Kalas plays better when he has someone he can trust next to him.

Often it looks like he gets in two minds, especially with Vyner is next to him. It's like he's trying to cover for two, and has in the past been caught between two minds and ends up in no man's land.

To a degree this happened with their equaliser. Watch their forward make a run towards near post, even though he's covered, Kalas makes a step to follow him, stops...but by then it's too late. Attempts to win header but it's over his head. It's the little movements like that, that cost us. It's small...but massive in the great scheme of things.

[Gert Mare]

In my opinion he is not up to this level. For a big chap he doesn’t use his body strength to his advantage. Positionally he is poor, he switches off, ball watches and plays aimless long balls which fail to find a man. He is also flat footed, so once he’s been turned he’s done.

[bexhill reds]

.

Edited January 31, 2022 by bexhill reds

[bexhill reds]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I’m not saying Vyner couldn’t have done better (e.g. helped Kalas out), but it’s Kalas’s man, and he’s wandered off.  Nobody is giving Kalas any stick, it’s aimed purely at Vyner…and that unjustified.

Disagree, watch from 29-31 seconds, the scorer is pretty much standing on Vyner's toes, then pulls away with Vyner seeming totally oblivious to the movement, if Vyner moves to follow, then the space for that shot goes. Kalas was too far away and had his back to what was going on, yes he could have waited before attacking the ball, but the closest player failed to track the movement in front of him. 

I get that Vyner is not a combative player nor is he someone that's going to win a header, but you can defend by reading and denying space, and that appears to be lacking.  I certainly wouldn't consider bringing him on as a sub in an attempt to park the bus in the last few minutes of a game, that's just asking for trouble

[Davefevs]

51 minutes ago, bexhill reds said:

Disagree, watch from 29-31 seconds, the scorer is pretty much standing on Vyner's toes, then pulls away with Vyner seeming totally oblivious to the movement, if Vyner moves to follow, then the space for that shot goes. Kalas was too far away and had his back to what was going on, yes he could have waited before attacking the ball, but the closest player failed to track the movement in front of him. 

I get that Vyner is not a combative player nor is he someone that's going to win a header, but you can defend by reading and denying space, and that appears to be lacking.  I certainly wouldn't consider bringing him on as a sub in an attempt to park the bus in the last few minutes of a game, that's just asking for trouble

But he’s Kalas’s man, Kalas loses him as the cross comes over.  He hasn’t passed him on to Vyner.  I’m not saying Vyner couldn’t have done better, but Kalas appears to get away scot-free with any criticism for his part in the goal.  That’s what I don’t understand.

Marking is not designated by who is closest, it’s about responsibility, and he was Kalas’s man, you don’t pass on a player whilst a cross is coming in. Kalas shouldn’t get caught not knowing where Riis is. As a CB you should be constantly checking, and body positioned to know where the man you’re marking is. He didn’t do that.

[bexhill reds]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

But he’s Kalas’s man, Kalas loses him as the cross comes over.  He hasn’t passed him on to Vyner.  I’m not saying Vyner couldn’t have done better, but Kalas appears to get away scot-free with any criticism for his part in the goal.  That’s what I don’t understand.

Marking is not designated by who is closest, it’s about responsibility, and he was Kalas’s man, you don’t pass on a player whilst a cross is coming in. Kalas shouldn’t get caught not knowing where Riis is. As a CB you should be constantly checking, and body positioned to know where the man you’re marking is. He didn’t do that.

Fair enough, this is one of those pub questions that there will always be a differing views…. 

[City1970]

1 hour ago, bexhill reds said:

Disagree, watch from 29-31 seconds, the scorer is pretty much standing on Vyner's toes, then pulls away with Vyner seeming totally oblivious to the movement, if Vyner moves to follow, then the space for that shot goes. Kalas was too far away and had his back to what was going on, yes he could have waited before attacking the ball, but the closest player failed to track the movement in front of him. 

I get that Vyner is not a combative player nor is he someone that's going to win a header, but you can defend by reading and denying space, and that appears to be lacking.  I certainly wouldn't consider bringing him on as a sub in an attempt to park the bus in the last few minutes of a game, that's just asking for trouble

Totally agree, bringing on Vyner to try and see a game out is definitely asking for trouble.

[Gert Mare]

On 31/01/2022 at 12:49, Gert Mare said:

In my opinion he is not up to this level. For a big chap he doesn’t use his body strength to his advantage. Positionally he is poor, he switches off, ball watches and plays aimless long balls which fail to find a man. He is also flat footed, so once he’s been turned he’s done.

Sadly more of the same today. Just not up to this level of football. Doesn’t have a clue where his man is. Looks like he’s watching the game from the stands.

[BLRed]

Vyner and I’m afraid o’Leary not good enough for this level. Big reasons for us conceding so many goals recently.

[Pezo]

1 minute ago, Gert Mare said:

Sadly more of the same today. Just not up to this level of football. Doesn’t have a clue where his man is. Looks like he’s watching the game from the stands.

How him and COD are expected to be first team championship players shows the weakness we have.

[GrahamC]

Certainly at fault with the first, no idea about the third as my feed cut out!

[BTRFTG]

Vyner took his performance to a new level today.

Best I leave it there .....

[Gert Mare]

3 minutes ago, BLRed said:

Vyner and I’m afraid o’Leary not good enough for this level. Big reasons for us conceding so many goals recently.

I agree. I actually felt ok with Max being given an opportunity but worryingly for me the more he has played the less convincing he has become. He doesn’t command his area and seems to come half way off his line. That is a worry. He looks lost in the mix whenever there is a corner. If Bentley is going as is being suggested I don’t think Max is the answer.

 

[Gert Mare]

6 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Certainly at fault with the first, no idea about the third as my feed cut out!

The third was a result of an initial mistake by Alex Scott. Vyner was then nutmegged.

Right from the off Swansea’s wide men had too much time and space down the flanks. Wolf picked up the ball and went up against Vyner and Vyner was in knots. Pring wasn’t tight enough on the other side either.

No surprise that 2 of the Swansea goals came from balls in from out wide. Why do we allow wide men so much space and time? Not just today but in general?

[BCFCGav]

Have to try Cundy. If he’s no good, Idehen. Only if he struggles should we play Vyner. Has to go in the summer.

[Bris Red]

I’d be looking to offload Vyner in the summer. He will thrive at a League 1 club. Best for all considered if he left ASAP.

[bexhill reds]

7 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

It was a poor performance by Zak. Does not read the game like the other 2 can.

But as a team we are so poor defensively.

He’s a back to goal defender, he can only play what’s in front of him, the minute he turns to face a cross, then he loses all awareness and watches the ball. Today, Preston, Luton are only the most recent examples

[pongo88]

12 minutes ago, BCFCGav said:

Have to try Cundy. If he’s no good, Idehen. Only if he struggles should we play Vyner. Has to go in the summer.

There’s nothing to lose by doing this as Vyner had no future with City. Cundy was good at League 1 level so, at worst, he’ll be on a par with Vyner. At best he’ll be an improvement. Pearson has to find out before the season ends. 

[Jerseybean]

Bristol Live: 

Zak Vyner - 5

Given a tough test up against Hannes Wolf in the early exchanges but settled as the game went on, especially after Curtis Fleming gave him some lengthy instructions on the touchline. Was asleep at the back post as Obafemi snuck behind him to score the equaliser.

[eardun]

18 minutes ago, BCFCGav said:

Have to try Cundy. If he’s no good, Idehen. Only if he struggles should we play Vyner. Has to go in the summer.

Pearson said before the match that Idehen was brought into the squad to give more cover because if we got an injury early in the match, it would be too much of a risk to throw Cundy on so early. But yes I expect Cundy to come into the team soon as he improves his fitness, especially after Pearson’s post match comments.

[Sheltons Army]

Meanwhile Zac is wondering whether his new headwear is helping his defensive awareness

 

 

[tin]

Today marked Vyner’s 111th game at Championship level. I honestly hate to think how many goals he’s conceded in that time. He’s 24 going on 25, isn’t a youngster anymore and yet he’s not learning from his mistakes, and his mistakes usually cost us a goal and undermine any good work he’s done. He needs to be moved in this summer IMO. Nowhere near good enough for this level, and that opinion’s based on a huge number of games. 

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, tin said:

Today marked Vyner’s 111th game at Championship level. I honestly hate to think how many goals he’s conceded in that time. He’s 24 going on 25, isn’t a youngster anymore and yet he’s not learning from his mistakes, and his mistakes usually cost us a goal and undermine any good work he’s done. He needs to be moved in this summer IMO. Nowhere near good enough for this level, and that opinion’s based on a huge number of games. 

Having not made RB his own early season, he is clearly a squad player, who will play when others aren’t available.  He’s 24, up to him to now decide whether he wants to max his career at this level or settle back for something a bit easier.  Shame, as Nige says, he’s got ability, but you do have to have the desire to make the most of it.

My analogy….in 2016/17 was there much, if any difference between O’Dowda and Brownhill?  No, not really.  One pushed himself, the other didn’t.

Over to you Zak.

[Sheltons Army]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Having not made RB his own early season, he is clearly a squad player, who will play when others aren’t available.  He’s 24, up to him to now decide whether he wants to max his career at this level or settle back for something a bit easier.  Shame, as Nige says, he’s got ability, but you do have to have the desire to make the most of it.

My analogy….in 2016/17 was there much, if any difference between O’Dowda and Brownhill?  No, not really.  One pushed himself, the other didn’t.

Over to you Zak.

As an ex defender at decent amateur level - do you think Zak has some basic requirements for this level Dave , and I’m thinking danger awareness , space / picture perception ?

 

The number of times players steal yards on him at the crucial moment , is staggering tbh after so many games

In my view if you havnt got it or havnt learnt it by now , you are unlikely to have it anythime soon
The fact he repeatedly repeats the same error is shocking tbh

The number of times attackers get across him , and if they don’t out think him they overpower him is a red flag to me

He will get found out as a defender at any pro level if he doesn’t improve these areas