Vyner - scapegoated

[Davefevs]

Just now, Sheltons Army said:

As an ex defender at decent amateur level - do you think Zak has some basic requirements for this level Dave , and I’m thinking danger awareness , space / picture perception ?

 

The number of times players steal yards on him at the crucial moment , is staggering tbh after so many games

In my view if you havnt got it or havnt learnt it by now , you are unlikely to have it anythime soon
The fact he repeatedly repeats the same error is shocking tbh

The number of times attackers get across him , and if they don’t out think him they overpower him is a red flag to me

He will get found out as a defender at any pro level if he doesn’t improve these areas

If that’s a qualification to have an opinion at Championship level, then…no I don’t think he has for a centre-back. (And thanks too)

@Shufflewill tell you I wasn’t a dirty CB by any stretch (at all?), but I knew how to defend, I knew when to be physical, I knew the danger scenarios, and sometimes I’d wrap my arm around (not in a way to give away a penalty) my striker early in the phase just to keep him close to me or stop him darting across or in behind me.  Better 6 inches away from that 6 foot.  I played against players who everytime I checked my shoulder for where the ball was, that was when they moved.  So I’d rather keep them close to me, with a subtle protective arm limiting where they could move next.

I think Zak defends those situations in a very naive way for someone with so many games at this level.  Shame.

 

[Sheltons Army]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

If that’s a qualification to have an opinion at Championship level, then…no I don’t think he has for a centre-back. (And thanks too)

@Shufflewill tell you I wasn’t a dirty CB by any stretch (at all?), but I knew how to defend, I knew when to be physical, I knew the danger scenarios, and sometimes I’d wrap my arm around (not in a way to give away a penalty) my striker early in the phase just to keep him close to me or stop him darting across or in behind me.  Better 6 inches away from that 6 foot.  I played against players who everytime I checked my shoulder for where the ball was, that was when they moved.  So I’d rather keep them close to me, with a subtle protective arm limiting where they could move next.

I think Zak defends those situations in a very naive way for someone with so many games at this level.  Shame.

 

Absolutely, thanks - interested in your view

He is extremely vulnerable when he’s the far post of the three ch’s - yes there’s danger you can see in front of you , but most of the time the danger in that situation the player coming from behind you

I appreciate movement is much better at that level but , being blunt , if you were manager of Bris say , and had a centre half regularly caught out as he does , you’d tear your hair out , and replace if he doesn’t learn  , wouldn’t you ?

If he has any hope at this level I’d be working my ass off on my full back skills 

[old_eastender]

15 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

As an ex defender at decent amateur level - do you think Zak has some basic requirements for this level Dave , and I’m thinking danger awareness , space / picture perception ?

 

The number of times players steal yards on him at the crucial moment , is staggering tbh after so many games

In my view if you havnt got it or havnt learnt it by now , you are unlikely to have it anythime soon
The fact he repeatedly repeats the same error is shocking tbh

The number of times attackers get across him , and if they don’t out think him they overpower him is a red flag to me

He will get found out as a defender at any pro level if he doesn’t improve these areas

Agree, frustratingly he can play well for most of a game, but all too often then just lets an attacker get the wrong side of him and another goal is conceded. I don't believe him switching off is going to change, so time to use the remaining games to see if Cundy can hack it at championship level, or even give Idehen a chance. No point persevering with Vyner anymore.

 

[tin]

32 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Having not made RB his own early season, he is clearly a squad player, who will play when others aren’t available.  He’s 24, up to him to now decide whether he wants to max his career at this level or settle back for something a bit easier.  Shame, as Nige says, he’s got ability, but you do have to have the desire to make the most of it.

My analogy….in 2016/17 was there much, if any difference between O’Dowda and Brownhill?  No, not really.  One pushed himself, the other didn’t.

Over to you Zak.

Thing is, Fevs, the ball’s been in his court to improve for two-and-a-half seasons and he hasn’t. The same basic errors rear their heads almost every game. Most times they get punished, others they don’t. Every player has a ceiling and Zak’s is L1, possibly lower. 

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

Agree, frustratingly he can play well for most of a game, but all too often then just lets an attacker get the wrong side of him and another goal is conceded. I don't believe him switching off is going to change, so time to use the remaining games to see if Cundy can hack it at championship level, or even give Idehen a chance. No point persevering with Vyner anymore.

Unfortunately I think today might have been the straw that breaks the camel's back with him.....................there does come a time when you have to accept that it just isn't going to happen with somebody.

[Sir Geoff]

28 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

As an ex defender at decent amateur level - do you think Zak has some basic requirements for this level Dave , and I’m thinking danger awareness , space / picture perception ?

 

The number of times players steal yards on him at the crucial moment , is staggering tbh after so many games

In my view if you havnt got it or havnt learnt it by now , you are unlikely to have it anythime soon
The fact he repeatedly repeats the same error is shocking tbh

The number of times attackers get across him , and if they don’t out think him they overpower him is a red flag to me

He will get found out as a defender at any pro level if he doesn’t improve these areas

First few minutes of the game he totally lost his man whilst shouting at JD to cover out wide. Vyners man just ran past him into space on the edge of the box. He had no idea where he had gone. So naive at this (or any) level .

[Shuffle]

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If that’s a qualification to have an opinion at Championship level, then…no I don’t think he has for a centre-back. (And thanks too)

@Shufflewill tell you I wasn’t a dirty CB by any stretch (at all?), but I knew how to defend, I knew when to be physical, I knew the danger scenarios, and sometimes I’d wrap my arm around (not in a way to give away a penalty) my striker early in the phase just to keep him close to me or stop him darting across or in behind me.  Better 6 inches away from that 6 foot.  I played against players who everytime I checked my shoulder for where the ball was, that was when they moved.  So I’d rather keep them close to me, with a subtle protective arm limiting where they could move next.

I think Zak defends those situations in a very naive way for someone with so many games at this level.  Shame.

 

I can’t remember you being close to your centre forward !! All joking aside, you are right in what you are saying in that there is a time to be physical & close.

Vyner has no heart or desire & can anyone name one occasion where he’s either flattened  a forward in any game to let them know he’s about. He loses concentration every game & whilst I thought he did well on Wednesday he wants to get through games by nicking balls which is all well and good but not all the time. Times up Zak as you’re not learning from mistakes 

 

 

 

 

[Davefevs]

Just now, Shuffle said:

I can’t remember you being close to your centre forward !! All joking aside, you are right in what you are saying in that there is a time to be physical & close.

Vyner has no heart or desire & can anyone name one occasion where he’s either flattened  a forward in any game to let them know he’s about. He loses concentration every game & whilst I thought he did well on Wednesday he wants to get through games by nicking balls which is all well and good but not all the time. Times up Zak as you’re not learning from mistakes 

 

 

 

 

Cheaply blighter, I was too busy trying to cover your skip driver’s first touch

You are of course spot on.  I only said it in the week, one of these days he’s gonna have to through someone and find out it’s alright to do so.  Do it in the right way, get a yellow, and move on.

[Sir Geoff]

2 minutes ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Oddly he very played a cracking through ball to Semenyo secondhalf that nearly came off , has deffo got some thought going forwards perhaps DM is better for him. Dont get the scapegoating thing as lots to blame for all goals, inc kalas Massengo and Klose not blocking or tackling one man in the build up to one of the goals. 

Think Massengo has got off lightly so far on this thread. The midfield disappeared for the first 15 minutes or so of the second half. Joe Williams arrival took the sting out of the game and made us a bit more resiliant.....until we backed off from the half way line to the edge of our box for the cross that created their second.

[bexhill reds]

21 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Think Massengo has got off lightly so far on this thread. The midfield disappeared for the first 15 minutes or so of the second half. Joe Williams arrival took the sting out of the game and made us a bit more resiliant.....until we backed off from the half way line to the edge of our box for the cross that created their second.

Said that on the match day thread, thought massengo and Scott were being pulled all over the place and needed some additional help, through taking off Martin for Williams

[bbew]

Should Dasilva take some of the blame for the first goal? It looks like Vyner told him to mark the player, but he did then run into Vyner's area. Should DaSilva have followed the player? Someone with more football knowledge than me may know!

Edited February 13, 2022 by bbew

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, bexhill reds said:

Said that on the match day thread, thought massengo and Scott were being pulled all over the place and needed some additional help, through taking off Martin for Williams

I’m assuming a bit pre+meditated sub, Han get through 60 if you can.

[bexhill reds]

Just now, Davefevs said:

I’m assuming a bit pre+meditated sub, Han get through 60 if you can.

I think so too, Massengo and Williams both not 90 mins match fit. With hindsight maybe Owers or James Morton could have been on the bench as the U23 player rather than another CH

[red84]

To think Vyner was given a 3 year contract in 2020, stealing a living at this level.

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, bbew said:

Should Dasilva take some of the blame for the first goal? It looks like Vyner told him to mark the player, but he did then run into Vyner's area. Should DaSilva have followed the player? Someone with more football knowledge than me may know!

Just watched it, it looks like Zak points to Jay to pick up Obafemi, but then again why doesn’t Zak mark him as there are two on edge of the box…and Zak isn’t marking anyone otherwise.

We will never know what the comms / pointing were, but Zak ultimately reacts too late.

[Finley_Smith10]

Went today…Vyner second half performance was an absolute embarrassment, should be no where near the team. Dread to think the amount of goals he’s cost us this season from silly mistakes or a lack of concentration 

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, old_eastender said:

Agree, frustratingly he can play well for most of a game, but all too often then just lets an attacker get the wrong side of him and another goal is conceded. I don't believe him switching off is going to change, so time to use the remaining games to see if Cundy can hack it at championship level, or even give Idehen a chance. No point persevering with Vyner anymore.

 

Up until the first goal where he completely switched off I thought he was doing ok. The biggest problem in all of this was we only went in one up. We make some poor decisions in the final third consistently

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

Totally unfair to single out one person for defensive weaknesses.  Defense starts from the front and at the moment the back three or four are largely unprotected, not least because we have no defensive cover in midfield since James has been injured and Bakinson jettisoned.  But please don’t say that Zak has no heart; you’re very wrong.

[Bodiesaffer]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Having not made RB his own early season, he is clearly a squad player, who will play when others aren’t available.  He’s 24, up to him to now decide whether he wants to max his career at this level or settle back for something a bit easier.  Shame, as Nige says, he’s got ability, but you do have to have the desire to make the most of it.

My analogy….in 2016/17 was there much, if any difference between O’Dowda and Brownhill?  No, not really.  One pushed himself, the other didn’t.

Over to you Zak.

This is the problem desire, the want to concentrate and be aggressive.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Bodiesaffer
He’s got it just not for 90 mins.

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Oddly he very played a cracking through ball to Semenyo secondhalf that nearly came off , has deffo got some thought going forwards perhaps DM is better for him. Dont get the scapegoating thing as lots to blame for all goals, inc kalas Massengo and Klose not blocking or tackling one man in the build up to one of the goals. 

 Massengo, Pring and Klose all converged on the attacker, but didn't prevent the run into our box or cross, and Vyner simply trotted alongside their scorer. Kalas was marking no one and was a spectator.

That first goal truly was dire on all accounts.

Thing is, Vyner also committed a high-visibility blunder for their third.

He will be under the Pearson spotlight for sure.

I prefer him as a midfielder too, but we have other options there. 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

2 minutes ago, Bodiesaffer said:

This is the problem desire, the want to concentrate and be aggressive.

Simple isn’t it?  He just isn’t interested.  Do you really think that someone who has come up through the ranks with City has no desire?  Better players than we have would struggle in defense for us at the moment, and it’s the managers job to work it out (particularly a manager who was himself a defender).  

[bexhill reds]

4 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Simple isn’t it?  He just isn’t interested.  Do you really think that someone who has come up through the ranks with City has no desire?  Better players than we have would struggle in defense for us at the moment, and it’s the managers job to work it out (particularly a manager who was himself a defender).  

Same player makes the same mistake invariably week in week out and does not seem to learn from it… He’s had various coaches and managers saying he’s the next best thing, but never shown it. The only thing that the club is doing wrong is putting the player into the firing line each week, it cant be good for his confidence and perhaps mental health. I can’t believe that the coaching team have not had 1-1 sessions with video to highlight and flag the issues, but if he’s reached his plateau then perhaps time to chat to him and agent about a move, and quietly keep him in training until the end of the season.

[nickolas]

Not sure its to do with desire. Hes simply not good enough!

I posted the other day about playing him in cm, in order to keep him as far away as possible from not marking his man while playing at cb, and then i see Swansea’s first goal today!! . 
Just because hes academy it doesnt mean hes good enough or should be given any more time than anyone else. 
Time to get rid. 

[Numero Uno]

2 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Simple isn’t it?  He just isn’t interested.  Do you really think that someone who has come up through the ranks with City has no desire?  Better players than we have would struggle in defense for us at the moment, and it’s the managers job to work it out (particularly a manager who was himself a defender).  

What he lacks is concentration levels for enough of the time. Doesn't matter who the Manager is there is only one answer to that issue................

[nickolas]

2 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Totally unfair to single out one person for defensive weaknesses.  Defense starts from the front and at the moment the back three or four are largely unprotected, not least because we have no defensive cover in midfield since James has been injured and Bakinson jettisoned.  But please don’t say that Zak has no heart; you’re very wrong.

Well, Nige said he aint no cardiologist to give players heart!

Hes just not good enough. At the centre point of too many mistakes, goals and shoulder-shrugging im afraid. 

[Ska Junkie]

4 minutes ago, nickolas said:

Not sure its to do with desire. Hes simply not good enough!

I posted the other day about playing him in cm, in order to keep him as far away as possible from not marking his man while playing at cb, and then i see Swansea’s first goal today!! . 
Just because hes academy it doesnt mean hes good enough or should be given any more time than anyone else. 
Time to get rid. 

Sadly, I must agree. We've always given him leeway as he was 'a promising youngster' but he's approaching 25 now and just doesn't seem to be able to stop the one massive ricket every game. 

As a DM, he's not bad but a Championship defender he isn't, he just loses concentration too often and that gets punished at this level. He just hasn't progressed as some have / did, which is sad but enough is enough. 

[TransferForum]

Bit of an outsider view here. Zak is a great lad and imho is a solid Championship player. People on here judging him on on unrealistic Premier League aspirations 

[Red-Robbo]

To quote Carlo Gervasi from The Sopranos:  "He's gotta go!!"

But what are our precise options here?  How soon are we likely to get any of the injured players back?  

[Mr Hankey]

12 minutes ago, TransferForum said:

Bit of an outsider view here. Zak is a great lad and imho is a solid Championship player. People on here judging him on on unrealistic Premier League aspirations 

Hi Zak’s dad

[Ska Junkie]

14 minutes ago, TransferForum said:

Bit of an outsider view here. Zak is a great lad and imho is a solid Championship player. People on here judging him on on unrealistic Premier League aspirations 

I'm sure he's a lovely bloke but a 'solid Championship player' doesn't continue to make the same mistakes and learns from them. Maybe he hasn't found his position as he was decent as a DM IIRC.