Goals analysis

[Harry]

Keen to get some thoughts on the goals conceded. Lots of people pointing out the usual suspects, but perhaps some of the more ‘likeable’ players didn’t come up to usual expectations? 
 

First goal. One of my big criticisms of Massengo is that he can tear about a bit too much. I like him. He has bundles of energy. But he does go awol occasionally. 
On the first goal, he’s in a perfect position in central midfield, there is no real danger and he is filling a hole and cutting off any passing lanes in behind. (See pic 1). 
Obafemi makes a run and points to where he wants the ball. For some bizarre reason, Massengo runs off to the right, not tracking anyone, not moving across to mark anyone, I have no clue why he makes this move. This opens up the passing Lane which Obafemi wanted. (See pic 2). 
It’s a really really bizarre move from Massengo. Basically gifted them the through ball. 
 

2nd goal. Yes it’s offside. But the problem here stems from us getting out of shape. Martin, Weimann & Semenyo are all too close, allowing space for their full back. We let the full back run half the length of the pitch, unchallenged, to put a cross in. 
See pic 3. 
This is where organisation or leadership come in. Someone in that back line (kalas) can see what’s infront of him and needs to bellow instructions. Either Williams or Dasilva need to engage that full back with the rest of the defence shuffling over. If Dasilva engages, we can keep shape momentarily and if the pass goes down the line then Vyner can move across. If Williams engages then the midfield runner he’s tracking will simply find himself up against Vyner. There is plenty of cover back there, someone needs to shout at one of those 2 to engage. 
When the cross does eventually come in, yes, Pring gets done at the back stick, but you kinda feel for him a little, as the ball bypasses Kalas and Klose way too easily - both seem like they almost step away from it - from Prings angle I’d imagine he’s expecting one of those 2 to make a clearance. 
Just very poor organisation and communication on this one. 
 

As for the 3rd goal - we’ve gambled and Klose has gone up front. Kalas again does a really bad job of anticipating where the ball is gonna land and gets beaten all too easily, leaving Vyner totally exposed, with an oncoming striker AND his own man wider. Not much Vyner could really do here. Kalas left him screwed. 
 

Overall, whilst most posts this evening have singled out Dasilva and Vyner, I think we need to look at the parts played in these goals by HNM, Williams & Kalas, as well as those usual suspects. 
 

[Shuffle]

Not watched anything back other than live at the game but do pics 1 & 2 lead directly to the goal as all I can remember of the goal was a scuffed shot by Christie and Obafemi  running of the back of Vyner who had switched off for a tap in.  Get HNM going walkabout but lots happening after this if this is first goal.

2nd goal agree that The Swans player travelled a long way and Williams should have closed down the player but again the cross went a long way pass Klosse and Kalas and again hazy thought Christie reacted quicker than Pring (who was poor today)

3rd one thought Scott gave ball away & Vyner was too tame in attempt to win ball. Not sure what Kalas part was but again all from memory. Unlike PNE equaliser where he allowed his man to drop off for volley.

Overall, we have to do better collectively and so frustrating as a winnable game

[Harry]

2 minutes ago, Shuffle said:

Not watched anything back other than live at the game but do pics 1 & 2 lead directly to the goal as all I can remember of the goal was a scuffed shot by Christie and Obafemi  running of the back of Vyner who had switched off for a tap in.  Get HNM going walkabout but lots happening after this if this is first goal.

2nd goal agree that The Swans player travelled a long way and Williams should have closed down the player but again the cross went a long way pass Klosse and Kalas and again hazy thought Christie reacted quicker than Pring (who was poor today)

3rd one thought Scott gave ball away & Vyner was too tame in attempt to win ball. Not sure what Kalas part was but again all from memory. Unlike PNE equaliser where he allowed his man to drop off for volley.

Overall, we have to do better collectively and so frustrating as a winnable game

Re the first goal. After HNM goes awol, that through pass is what leads to our backline being all at sea. So for me it’s a major contributory factor. 
The midfield should be there to prevent pressure coming onto the backline. That ridiculous movement by Massengo just gifted them a route straight into the heart of the defence. 

[Rob k]

Just by those pictures alone you can see how were shipping goals for fun

pic 2 - 4 on 3 whilst we have 4 players advanced of that not affecting the game at all 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Rob k

[spudski]

Maybe Massengo is looking at the player passing the ball, been given ' the eyes', anticipated the pass is going wide right, and is trying to intercept that pass. He's totally unaware of the man behind him pointing it seems.

You are right in your observations though Harry. Both Han and Thomas make poor decisions in games when it comes to position.

Both get high praise for energy and putting body on line.

However...both would have to do less of that if their positional play was better. Han is far better positional when offensive...less so defensively.

Add that to Vyner and DaSilva....and I'd also add Weimann when tracking.

 

[NcnsBcfc]

15 minutes ago, Harry said:

Keen to get some thoughts on the goals conceded. Lots of people pointing out the usual suspects, but perhaps some of the more ‘likeable’ players didn’t come up to usual expectations? 
 

First goal. One of my big criticisms of Massengo is that he can tear about a bit too much. I like him. He has bundles of energy. But he does go awol occasionally. 
On the first goal, he’s in a perfect position in central midfield, there is no real danger and he is filling a hole and cutting off any passing lanes in behind. (See pic 1). 
Obafemi makes a run and points to where he wants the ball. For some bizarre reason, Massengo runs off to the right, not tracking anyone, not moving across to mark anyone, I have no clue why he makes this move. This opens up the passing Lane which Obafemi wanted. (See pic 2). 
It’s a really really bizarre move from Massengo. Basically gifted them the through ball. 
 

2nd goal. Yes it’s offside. But the problem here stems from us getting out of shape. Martin, Weimann & Semenyo are all too close, allowing space for their full back. We let the full back run half the length of the pitch, unchallenged, to put a cross in. 
See pic 3. 
This is where organisation or leadership come in. Someone in that back line (kalas) can see what’s infront of him and needs to bellow instructions. Either Williams or Dasilva need to engage that full back with the rest of the defence shuffling over. If Dasilva engages, we can keep shape momentarily and if the pass goes down the line then Vyner can move across. If Williams engages then the midfield runner he’s tracking will simply find himself up against Vyner. There is plenty of cover back there, someone needs to shout at one of those 2 to engage. 
When the cross does eventually come in, yes, Pring gets done at the back stick, but you kinda feel for him a little, as the ball bypasses Kalas and Klose way too easily - both seem like they almost step away from it - from Prings angle I’d imagine he’s expecting one of those 2 to make a clearance. 
Just very poor organisation and communication on this one. 
 

As for the 3rd goal - we’ve gambled and Klose has gone up front. Kalas again does a really bad job of anticipating where the ball is gonna land and gets beaten all too easily, leaving Vyner totally exposed, with an oncoming striker AND his own man wider. Not much Vyner could really do here. Kalas left him screwed. 
 

Overall, whilst most posts this evening have singled out Dasilva and Vyner, I think we need to look at the parts played in these goals by HNM, Williams & Kalas, as well as those usual suspects. 
 

The word "passive" springs to mind.

As a team for a nearly 3 years now, we have dropped off, and allowed crosses into the box; that we have increasingly been unable to deal with.

The first goal for me, leaving out the 4 players that could have cut out the cross. JD just lets Obafami stroll past him thinking that Vyner will pick him up. Vyner, being Vyner is ball watching; and not aware who is on his shoulder. Late call from JD who sees that Vyner hasn't seen the danger; and it's all too late. Both of them are culpable in my eyes as they both left it to each other to deal with. Nobody taking responsibly.

You deal with the second goal well. But again with City, nobody is getting out to challenge, we just back off. The ball across the box is in that area, where as a cb; you think if i get a touch it's an og. However once again like the first goal; we haven't followed the runners in. It's not rocket science, it's about responsibility. Once again not our strength collectively as a team.

I think people look to Kalas, as he is our strongest defender. But he's an awful communicator, and very quiet. He's just not a leader back there.

As for the third goal. For me, it's a lack of bravery by Vyner. If you're going for the ball, go for it. Not half arsed, stick you foot out, and get nutmeged. If you don't get the ball, you get the man. But you make sure, you get one or the other; that is called courage. Something unfortunately Vyner lacks in abundance.

3 poor team goals, and so so easy for Swansea. Play like that against Boro, and it'll be 4 or 5 against us.

[Red-Robbo]

Kalas has been given a bit too easy a ride in a number of poor defensive displays.  He's our best defender (well, maybe Klose will take that accolade) but that's a bit like being awarded the best-looking man in a leper colony prize. The standard ain't great.

Totally agree with the OP on Massengo's role in the first goal.

Ultimately, you can't help shit refs ignoring offside goals and blatant penalties, but we also should've scored more than one from the chances we created. The boys up the other end of the pitch need to take a bit of the blame for a defeat as well. 

[Harry]

That first one really has me baffled. 
I was smack behind the goal, so I was bang in line with the through pass. I literally could not believe my eyes when Massengo went haring off, leaving that huge passing lane. 
Startling behaviour. 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

32 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Looks like Williams is going mental, pointing and running towards Weimann after the 3rd goal.

If Weimann is right wing back at that point of the game and Klose is up front for us, then surely he has to defend.

2nd goal Weimann lets Ntcham go. Scott is up front, so really important Weimann covers him. He sees Ntcham's run but delays going with him and  then can't catch him.

And even the 1st. If Weimann goes with the midfield as a unit then he might well have been there to pick up the loose ball after Vyner gets a touch. 

Christie has so much time there to collect the ball.

Obviously other individual errors at the back too. Vyner doesnt read the game at times like a centre back should.

But we don't defend as a team. Pearson said this last week we need to defend as a team, but he's not changing anything.

You are going on ze list. Don't tell 'em your name,Jon.

[Davefevs]

51 minutes ago, Harry said:

That first one really has me baffled. 
I was smack behind the goal, so I was bang in line with the through pass. I literally could not believe my eyes when Massengo went haring off, leaving that huge passing lane. 
Startling behaviour. 

I can only imagine he’s got a shout of “right shoulder Han”, because he’s darted over.  Mis-comms from Kalas, meant left shoulder, or naughty shout from Obafemi???

[eardun]

1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

Looks like Williams is going mental, pointing and running towards Weimann after the 3rd goal.

I thought he had a go at the ref and got booked for his troubles. 

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

That first one really has me baffled. 
I was smack behind the goal, so I was bang in line with the through pass. I literally could not believe my eyes when Massengo went haring off, leaving that huge passing lane. 
Startling behaviour. 

On reflection what came to mind was the game we won 1-0 there under LJ against a much better Swansea side than the current one.

We scored early and from that point the front 2 and midfield blocked their passing lanes, they couldn't get going and I never felt we were in danger.

It helped of course that we had better defenders but there was structure and discipline with players knowing their job.

I can't remember the last time I could say that of a performance and I don't expect to say that any time soon.

Edited February 13, 2022 by chinapig

[redsquirrel]

i feel for zac sometimes,yes he makes mistakes but his team mates cause a lot of them

[ProfitInMyPocket]

A lot of the goals we are conceding are not just one mistake, it is multiple mistakes from multiple players in sequences of play, sometimes all it takes is one person to do their job correctly and clear lines and then the team can regroup and go again.

We just don't seem to have enough conviction and awareness when the game is turning against us, if we stifle a couple attacks it can slow down the other team's momentum and then we can start again, and the boys up top look really dangerous on the counter which is refreshing in itself. We do have outlets on the break, just got to be more aware of how we stop teams building up momentum against us.

 

 

[Harry]

14 minutes ago, chinapig said:

On reflection what came to mind was the game we won 1-0 there under LJ against a much better Swansea side than the current one.

We scored early and from that point the front 2 and midfield blocked their passing lanes, they couldn't get going and I never felt we were in danger.

It helped of course that we had better defenders but there was structure and discipline with players knowing their job.

I can't remember the last time I could say that of a performance and I don't expect to say that any time soon.

 

14 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Ahh you might be right there.

Not sure what the ref did wrong on that goal?

I think we have big problems with how we defend as a team. Yes, Vyner is not good enough. Dasilva has made mistakes recently too, Blackpool targeted him for example.

Pring suddenly looking a bit more dodgy. I think tiredness might play a part in that. He looked very tired again 2nd half imo.

But all these things I think are less of a problem if we have some better organisation in front of them.

Agree with these. 
Bascially, whilst I do really like Massengo & Scott, both will be excellent players, but at the moment they are both very individualistic and aren’t really forming a partnership. As a result, they are not really providing great protection to the defence. 
 

Not a big criticism at this stage, they are both young and both learning hot on the job and will naturally make mistakes. I’m just not sure that, at the moment, having them playing as a central 2 is a good idea. 
Perhaps when Williams is fully fit, we might see all 3 of them played in the midfield, and try to harden up that leaky area. 

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Harry said:

 

Agree with these. 
Bascially, whilst I do really like Massengo & Scott, both will be excellent players, but at the moment they are both very individualistic and aren’t really forming a partnership. As a result, they are not really providing great protection to the defence. 
 

Not a big criticism at this stage, they are both young and both learning hot on the job and will naturally make mistakes. I’m just not sure that, at the moment, having them playing as a central 2 is a good idea. 
Perhaps when Williams is fully fit, we might see all 3 of them played in the midfield, and try to harden up that leaky area. 

I look at lines down the pitch as a very simplistic way of pros and cons.  Where are your players concentrated, where do teams who like to play centrally gonna expose you, same for those who play down the sides.

It of course far too simplistic.  There are merits of the 5212 / 3412, you have 8 players in the central (yellow) part of the pitch, it is very easy to get overloaded wide.

First half we did a great job of Weimann, Semenyo and Martin picking up their 3 CBs and making Swansea play with the keeper as the spare man…we pretty much went man for man everywhere else.  If Downes or Grimes tried to get it off of the keeper, Massengo or Scott tracked them, and we pinched a lot of ball high up.

Second half they managed to out-manoeuvre us and got it into midfield and wide positions.  At that point Massengo and Scott start getting dragged around.  They aren’t experienced enough to handle that.  We probably needed to go 541 for 5 minutes, weather it, and then try to re-impose ourselves. Make them think they’re failing, get their fans on their back that they can’t play through us…they then start hitting risky passes, and we pick them off.

Frustrating.

[NcnsBcfc]

2 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Looks like Williams is going mental, pointing and running towards Weimann after the 3rd goal.

If Weimann is right wing back at that point of the game and Klose is up front for us, then surely he has to defend.

2nd goal Weimann lets Ntcham go. Scott is up front, so really important Weimann covers him. He sees Ntcham's run but delays going with him and  then can't catch him.

And even the 1st. If Weimann goes with the midfield as a unit then he might well have been there to pick up the loose ball after Vyner gets a touch. 

Christie has so much time there to collect the ball.

Obviously other individual errors at the back too. Vyner doesnt read the game at times like a centre back should.

But we don't defend as a team. Pearson said this last week we need to defend as a team, but he's not changing anything.

Weimann did exactly the same on the Reading goal the other day. Ran alongside then stopped, and Scott was slow to pick up the now clear man.

Obviously it's not Weimann's game to keep chasing and make the tackle. But something is getting lost in translation somewhere. The midfield is anticipating the forwards making the tackles before engaging themselves. 

All about transitions of play, but it looks muddled at the moment.

[Harry]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Second half they managed to out-manoeuvre us and got it into midfield and wide positions.  At that point Massengo and Scott start getting dragged around.  They aren’t experienced enough to handle that. 

Superb analysis Dave. 
That is EXACTLY what happened. The midfield were getting pulled all over the place at the start of the 2nd half. 
Russell Martin clearly made a half time adjustment, and we didn’t react to it tactically. The first goal was coming - they’d pulled us around as soon as the 2nd half started and we didn’t counter it and our shape was all at sea. 

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, Harry said:

Superb analysis Dave. 
That is EXACTLY what happened. The midfield were getting pulled all over the place at the start of the 2nd half. 
Russell Martin clearly made a half time adjustment, and we didn’t react to it tactically. The first goal was coming - they’d pulled us around as soon as the 2nd half started and we didn’t counter it and our shape was all at sea. 

Don’t take this as a criticism of Weimann, but the 3412 formation epitomises the yin and yang of formations.  It really gives us attacking edge, but defensive frailty….it really gives Weimann threat, but it exposes us defensively.  Some of that is down to the players behind him.  It’s not all their fault.  We aren’t anywhere near our best 11(ish) players and that too gets exposed.

There are definitely areas to improve, and in several recent games we’ve shown that.  We’ve shown the other side too.

Think we have to roll with it and see what difference we see if James, Atkinson, Tanner come back with Williams too.

[Offside]

I can’t add to the excellent analysis on this thread other than to express my exasperation at our continued lame defending. So many of our players are making basic mistakes all over the pitch that give away goals so cheaply - the number of individual lapses make for a collective problem that seems ingrained. 
 

[JoeAman08]

When it comes down to it, we can’t have 3 blokes sat up front doing nothing once the ball crosses the halfway line. It doesn’t work for psg and it won’t work for us. 

[1960maaan]

13 hours ago, Harry said:

Keen to get some thoughts on the goals conceded. Lots of people pointing out the usual suspects, but perhaps some of the more ‘likeable’ players didn’t come up to usual expectations? 
 

First goal. One of my big criticisms of Massengo is that he can tear about a bit too much. I like him. He has bundles of energy. But he does go awol occasionally. 
On the first goal, he’s in a perfect position in central midfield, there is no real danger and he is filling a hole and cutting off any passing lanes in behind. (See pic 1). 
Obafemi makes a run and points to where he wants the ball. For some bizarre reason, Massengo runs off to the right, not tracking anyone, not moving across to mark anyone, I have no clue why he makes this move. This opens up the passing Lane which Obafemi wanted. (See pic 2). 
It’s a really really bizarre move from Massengo. Basically gifted them the through ball. 
 

2nd goal. Yes it’s offside. But the problem here stems from us getting out of shape. Martin, Weimann & Semenyo are all too close, allowing space for their full back. We let the full back run half the length of the pitch, unchallenged, to put a cross in. 
See pic 3. 
This is where organisation or leadership come in. Someone in that back line (kalas) can see what’s infront of him and needs to bellow instructions. Either Williams or Dasilva need to engage that full back with the rest of the defence shuffling over. If Dasilva engages, we can keep shape momentarily and if the pass goes down the line then Vyner can move across. If Williams engages then the midfield runner he’s tracking will simply find himself up against Vyner. There is plenty of cover back there, someone needs to shout at one of those 2 to engage. 
When the cross does eventually come in, yes, Pring gets done at the back stick, but you kinda feel for him a little, as the ball bypasses Kalas and Klose way too easily - both seem like they almost step away from it - from Prings angle I’d imagine he’s expecting one of those 2 to make a clearance. 
Just very poor organisation and communication on this one. 
 

As for the 3rd goal - we’ve gambled and Klose has gone up front. Kalas again does a really bad job of anticipating where the ball is gonna land and gets beaten all too easily, leaving Vyner totally exposed, with an oncoming striker AND his own man wider. Not much Vyner could really do here. Kalas left him screwed. 
 

Overall, whilst most posts this evening have singled out Dasilva and Vyner, I think we need to look at the parts played in these goals by HNM, Williams & Kalas, as well as those usual suspects. 
 

First Goal.
That does seem odd, whether he gets a shout or try to anticipate the pass , who knows. Plenty goes on after though.
I'd question Jay DaSilva. As the guy is about to shoot, Vyner points to the runner (scorer) but JD just stands. If he takes the runner, maybe Vyner could face the original threat and possibly get closer to cutting it out. As he is still checking the man, he's caught between 2 stools. Trying to watch behind him and track the ball, means he's flat footed and does neither. 

1st pic. Vyner points to runner.   2nd pic. He still trys to be side on to watch runner as JD he stopped. Means the guy has a run on him.

  

2nd Goal.
With Scott pressing, we have a midfield shortage. I wouldn't play Martin with Weimann as a sort of MF, I'd rather play AW up front with Semenyo and bring in a genuine CMF. Problem is, they're all injured or not going to be risked so these things will happen. 
As the ball comes in it doesn't look too bad, though it does look like Pring isn't fully switched on. Not sure the Swansea guy gets a touch at front post, I would like to see Kalas (?) get something on it. Klose looks like he leaves it too.

Looking at that the ball should never travel that far, but having done so Pring should get there first. Is that the desire Nige was talking about ?
Possibly 2 offside shouts, how the Linesman let it go, who knows.

Pic is just after the 2nd shot, I'd say offside would be easy to give there.

3rd Goal ? TBH I don't think there's much point picking it apart, as we were chasing the game. That said, Vyner challenge is weak. After they got a couple of breaks from deflections, unlucky, but Vyner gets nutmeg as last man, never a good look. I really think he's playing low on confidence and would normally have been rested. Show what Nige's current thinking on Simpson is. 
The constant thing I've said when I've pulled goals apart, is passive defending. There are so many waiting to see what happens, while forwards are taking chances on space. Watch the goals and we have several players waiting to see where the ball will go, rather than getting into positions to affect play. I think that is one of the things Pearson is concerned about. 

 

 

 

[GrahamC]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Don’t take this as a criticism of Weimann, but the 3412 formation epitomises the yin and yang of formations.  It really gives us attacking edge, but defensive frailty….it really gives Weimann threat, but it exposes us defensively.  Some of that is down to the players behind him.  It’s not all their fault.  We aren’t anywhere near our best 11(ish) players and that too gets exposed.

There are definitely areas to improve, and in several recent games we’ve shown that.  We’ve shown the other side too.

Think we have to roll with it and see what difference we see if James, Atkinson, Tanner come back with Williams too.

Spot on & what makes that formation even more dicey of course is that the 2 centre mid players are 18 & 20.

Problem is until James is fit to play or we are confident that Williams can play 90 minutes there aren’t any other midfield options, Benarous is even less experienced & certainly no more physical.

I know Kalas has taken some flak but at times its like Rourke’s Drift back there, he got another 2 excellent blocks in yesterday, goodness knows how many in the last 10 minutes v Reading, which is a sign of how much the opposition get in on our goal.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, JoeAman08 said:

When it comes down to it, we can’t have 3 blokes sat up front doing nothing once the ball crosses the halfway line. It doesn’t work for psg and it won’t work for us. 

Big bugbear of mine Joe.  At least one of them needs to drop in a bit, if only to close the gap between a retreating defensive line and attack…but hopefully to get the ball from blocks or half-clearances.  I think it allows our opponents to recycle attacks.  It’s why it feels harum scarem (sic) so often.

I’d prefer it if it was CM who dropped in (assuming Weimann already has), as Antoine can be explosive further forward, and will occupy more opponents theoretically.  We saw what he did to Tim Ream if left 1v1.

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Spot on & what makes that formation even more dicey of course is that the 2 centre mid players are 18 & 20.

Problem is until James is fit to play or we are confident that Williams can play 90 minutes there aren’t any other midfield options, Benarous is even less experienced & certainly no more physical.

I know Kalas has taken some flak but at times its like Rourke’s Drift back there, he got another 2 excellent blocks in yesterday, goodness knows how many in the last 10 minutes v Reading, which is a sign of how much the opposition get in on our goal.

 

Good points. I've criticised Kalas on this thread, because I feel he gets a free pass from some, but ultimately if you have little confidence in the players around you (or behind you, because I reckon Max doesn't inspire defenders) then you'll look shaky yourself.  We saw this during the transformation of Liam Fontaine from a sound defender to a liability.

I love Han-Noah Massengo, but he doesn't have many defensive abilities. Makes the odd tackle these days, but his positioning is all wrong when he is going backwards. Just look where he was for Swansea's first goal!  Scotty is better as a defender, but still doesn't have the upper body strength to worry older, bulkier attackers. 

We just have to wait out this poor period and hope for a speedy return of some of those missing.  If Atkinson was back for Boro, that would be a major help. Williams getting back to his pre-injury form and fitness can't come soon enough either. 

 

[JoeAman08]

42 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Big bugbear of mine Joe.  At least one of them needs to drop in a bit, if only to close the gap between a retreating defensive line and attack…but hopefully to get the ball from blocks or half-clearances.  I think it allows our opponents to recycle attacks.  It’s why it feels harum scarem (sic) so often.

I’d prefer it if it was CM who dropped in (assuming Weimann already has), as Antoine can be explosive further forward, and will occupy more opponents theoretically.  We saw what he did to Tim Ream if left 1v1.

I saw someone mention how we kind of have to use Massengo and Scott as a pair because no one fit or fit enough to add to it. For me, slotting Benarous in there makes a massive difference. Even if a green and lightweight just being there to help disrupt I think helps yesterday. 
 

Now it brings other issues like probably dropping Martin. Does not bother me in an attacking sense as think Semenyo can do a lot of the same things. Does leave a hole on corners at the front post though. Surely Semenyo could do that? And Bentley perhaps back in for a bit makes it less of a problem. 
 

I have long thought in a perfect world would like to see 2 of the 3 of williams scott massengo play the deeper role. With 2 of 3 of weimann scott and benarous buzzing around semenyo and picking up little pockets of space. Weimann and/or Benarous hanging around other sides deeper midfielders. Fir example yesterday thought it would have been extremely helpful if say Weimann and Semenyo sat right on Downes and Grimes. Allowing scott and massengo to sure up the middle or pick up a wide cb if needed. 
 

I think we have seen something like this against Fulham in the cup. Benarous was a nuisance defending and added real quality in possession. I think physically taking it slower with him makes sense but think he has been under utilised up to now. 

[Clutton Caveman]

19 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Looks like Williams is going mental, pointing and running towards Weimann after the 3rd goal.

If Weimann is right wing back at that point of the game and Klose is up front for us, then surely he has to defend.

2nd goal Weimann lets Ntcham go. Scott is up front, so really important Weimann covers him. He sees Ntcham's run but delays going with him and  then can't catch him.

And even the 1st. If Weimann goes with the midfield as a unit then he might well have been there to pick up the loose ball after Vyner gets a touch. 

Christie has so much time there to collect the ball.

Obviously other individual errors at the back too. Vyner doesnt read the game at times like a centre back should.

But we don't defend as a team. Pearson said this last week we need to defend as a team, but he's not changing anything.

Weimann can only play up front. Here is energy and running are effective

In midfield he charges around with no positional discipline.

DaSilva seems simply to switch off for short periods as does Vyner.

I think in the perfect world NP would not play both Scott and Massengo in centre mid because both are attack minded and lack positional discipline.

We have the players we have. They do not have a winning instinct and have become too used to coming second. This will not improve as our season drags to a close with nothing really to play for.

[The Bard]

19 hours ago, Harry said:

That first one really has me baffled. 
I was smack behind the goal, so I was bang in line with the through pass. I literally could not believe my eyes when Massengo went haring off, leaving that huge passing lane. 
Startling behaviour. 

You're 100% right but there are a number of good posters who almost refuse to accept some kind of culpability.  Very odd.  

[Numero Uno]

34 minutes ago, The Bard said:

You're 100% right but there are a number of good posters who almost refuse to accept some kind of culpability.  Very odd.  

Which is why Alex Scott was allowed to pull out of a tackle five seconds before a penalty was given the other night with no criticism whatsoever. In fact pointing it out meant you were picking on him and that you think he's shit because some people do not have the intelligence to realise that you can think a player is the best prospect the club has produced for years yet still be frustrated with him for making a basic mistake. Our fans have this odd fascination with favourites and pantomime villains meaning the likes of Vyner can do no right whatever he does and the likes of HNM and Scott conversely do no wrong.......even when they clearly do wrong.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Which is why Alex Scott was allowed to pull out of a tackle five seconds before a penalty was given the other night with no criticism whatsoever. In fact pointing it out meant you were picking on him and that you think he's shit because some people do not have the intelligence to realise that you can think a player is the best prospect the club has produced for years yet still be frustrated with him for making a basic mistake. Our fans have this odd fascination with favourites and pantomime villains meaning the likes of Vyner can do no right whatever he does and the likes of HNM and Scott conversely do no wrong.......even when they clearly do wrong.

Was having this exact conversation on twitter DMs the other day with @GrahamC.