So, the coaching....

[Port Said Red]

At the start of the season I thought our general defending from set pieces was ok, yes we had the last minute goal thing but apart from that we looked fairly solid. We defended set pieces with a kind of hybrid of zonal and man marking, the main defenders taking zones and attacking the first ball and the rest picking up runners into the box. I thought it worked well and speaking to one of the players they seemed to like it too, I believe it was Downing's idea. Anyway, Downing and Simpson left and appear to have taken any plan with them.

I know some people will talk about individual players, but it seems ridiculous that no matter who plays, there is no organisation at the back. When Klose first came into the team I thought we had some semblance of order returning, but he seems to have given up talking to the others just like everyone else. I hear Pearson saying that he wants the players to come up with solutions themselves, but they seem to wrapped up in their own game to help anyone else. 

Earlier in the season there was a game when Tanner was playing and he was so tucked in that he was almost playing central and it left us very exposed on the right flank. It was so strange that I thought it must have been some sort of tactical plan, again I asked the same player about it and he said, and I quote. "I didn't notice"!

If the players are so wrapped up in the game that they can't see a pretty straightforward tactical error, then surely the Manager or coaching staff should be stepping in? It's often said that Championship football is some of the fastest in all the leagues, so maybe Pearson is asking too much of the players if he wants them to play their own game and help problem solve at the same time.

[steveybadger]

What do I think of the coaching? I’d welcome it!

With thanks to Fry and Laurie.

[GrahamC]

11 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

The Barnsley manager apparently said pre match that he knows our weaknesses. And I wonder if the main weakness he saw was how we defended corners in previous games.

To be fair, I think everyone does.

We are so vulnerable at set pieces it’s untrue.

Not the only reason but we do badly miss Baker, but as he’s been missing now since November we need to find solutions with what we have.

We lost so many second balls, Massengo was poor & James little better & although he’s done a good job Martin is being asked to play too many minutes, not that we could do much about it tonight after losing 3 through injury.

[Offside]

It’s very frustrating. Surely any team should be well-drilled at defending set pieces, but we seem to be all at sea. Too many players make basic mistakes or make bizarre decisions (like Semenyo running away from the player he was marking for their first goal). 

[And Its Smith]

Barnsley haven’t scored from a set piece this season before tonight.  The coaching isn’t working 

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, And Its Smith said:

Barnsley haven’t scored from a set piece this season before tonight.  The coaching isn’t working 

Not a fact….you been reading Rich Forrester.  C’mon Dave, you’re better than that!

[And Its Smith]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Not a fact….you been reading Rich Forrester.  C’mon Dave, you’re better than that!

I’m not!  We won the xG though Fevs…every cloud!

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, And Its Smith said:

I’m not!  We won the xG though Fevs…every cloud!

We did indeed.  But you’ll turn into Ian Gay if you keep spouting facts that aren’t facts.  Do you really want that?

[David Brent]

Isn’t Pat Mountain responsible for our set piece coaching? I’m sure I read that on here. Sorry if that’s wrong

[Davefevs]

Just now, David Brent said:

Isn’t Pat Mountain responsible for our set piece coaching? I’m sure I read that on here. Sorry if that’s wrong

He was…not sure if that’s still the case.

[Clevedon Red]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

He was…not sure if that’s still the case.

God if that’s the case then as the Shamen once sang we should “move (on) any mountain”

[Laner]

10 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Not the only reason but we do badly miss Baker, but as he’s been missing now since November we need to find solutions with what we have.

Also missing the defensive contribution that Diédhiou offered when he was here. Often it was his header clearing a corner.

[GrahamC]

22 minutes ago, Laner said:

Also missing the defensive contribution that Diédhiou offered when he was here. Often it was his header clearing a corner.

Really good point.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Laner said:

Also missing the defensive contribution that Diédhiou offered when he was here. Often it was his header clearing a corner.

A bit of a fallacy…Martin wins as many headers at the near post as Fam did.

Teams are no longer aiming for the near post inside the 6 yard box.  They are targeting 8-10 yards out where runners can get free.

They are avoiding our strength at the close to goal near post area.  We’ve been sussed!!!

We line our best headers of the ball along the 6 yard box, and until Xmas teams aimed for that area…we headed them away.  Now teams aim for areas are best headers aren’t in.

In the last few games we have had Kalas, now Cundy joining the blockers / markers , rather than zonal.  Cundy got blocked off twice last night.

Football is a simple game

[Rich]

You can have the best coaches in the world but, if players are being blocked, players aren't reacting and there doesn't appear to be the same desire to win the battle over the opposition, then the opposition will prevail. I didn't see the sheer desire and will to beat the opposite number when we were defending set pieces last night.

People are saying, are Barnley's players better than ours and answering no, well I disagree, individually possibly but, they do have some gifted mobile players and an attacker who knows how to dominate. I think their defenders were better than our attackers and their attackers were better than our defenders and that's why they came out on top.  Simple really.

[Banjo Red]

Makes you wonder about the desire as the season is slowly and awfully coming to a close we need one more win maybe two but how can you be quality one game then a cart horse the next. Are a few of them looking over their shoulder thinking I don't want to injury myself if in the summer I'm getting the boot.

[RedRock]

Our defending and attacking set pieces reveals a lot about the character, or lack of it, of this team and the absence of ability of our coaches. 

We are totally useless. No attacking threat whatsoever and defending is just so limp-wristed.  

Easy to play against. As mentally and physically weak as we have been for 5 years, which I thought would be the first thing Pearson would address.  Unless things change dramatically we’re going nowhere with this lot. 

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

A bit of a fallacy…Martin wins as many headers at the near post as Fam did.

Teams are no longer aiming for the near post inside the 6 yard box.  They are targeting 8-10 yards out where runners can get free.

They are avoiding our strength at the close to goal near post area.  We’ve been sussed!!!

We line our best headers of the ball along the 6 yard box, and until Xmas teams aimed for that area…we headed them away.  Now teams aim for areas are best headers aren’t in.

In the last few games we have had Kalas, now Cundy joining the blockers / markers , rather than zonal.  Cundy got blocked off twice last night.

Football is a simple game

Citys players are deeper than that. 

First goal.

Second goal.

 

If the players were zonal starting at the edge of the six  yard box Barnsley do not score either, or the ball certainly will not be allowed to bounce as it did x1. A bouncing ball in the box from  a corner is a sin, balls dont bounce x1 like that in u15 games. Manager, coaches , players hang your heads. Pathetic for pros, beyond poor.

 

[Davefevs]

14 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Citys players are deeper than that. 

First goal.

Second goal.

 

If the players were zonal starting at the edge of the six  yard box Barnsley do not score either, or the ball certainly will not be allowed to bounce as it did x1. A bouncing ball in the box from  a corner is a sin, balls dont bounce x1 like that in u15 games. Manager, coaches , players hang your heads. Pathetic for pros, beyond poor.

 

Don’t take every word so literally.  It was a generalisation of our positioning.

[Cowshed]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Don’t take every word so literally.  It was a generalisation of our positioning.

Sorry they are too deep. Literally they are.

Here is another goal conceded. Couple of weeks ago. 

The zonal defending, I hesitate to call it that is not defending the zone around the edge of the six yard box. 

One metre, two metres up higher and these chances will not be conceded.  

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Sorry they are too deep. Literally they are.

Here is another goal conceded. Couple of weeks ago. 

The zonal defending, I hesitate to call it that is not defending the zone around the edge of the six yard box. 

One metre, two metres up higher and these chances will not be conceded.  

I don’t disagree.  The decision becomes whether you stick rigidly to a 6 yard line for the “four” and ignore any opponents who stand between you and the keeper or not.

What would you for an inswinger in the pic above.  Martin 3 yards out, Atkinson and Klose 4 yards out.  Weimann for the short.  Kalas now a marker / blocker…about to be blocked off btw!!

[Harry]

I’ve got major problems with our corner set up last night. 
First goal :

1) Weimann is in no man’s land. He’s neither closing down a potential short corner nor dropping in enough to help defend a near post corner (if it did go there). We’ve got Martin on the near post, Weimann, if not covering the short option,  needs to be dropping in a line level with a ball being delivered between the 6 yard and penalty spot. He’s not affecting the game in any way from where he is. 
 

2) Massengo and Atkinson both go with their No 6. Either Atkinson is zonal and defends his area, or he’s man and goes with 6. If HNM is man, then he goes with 6. As it was, once 6 moved, both players went with him and neither actually get near him. In fact it ends up more with HNM marking Atkinson!!! 
 

3) There are 3 ‘headers’ playing zone on the 6 yard line (well, actually deeper than the line!). Why is Klose at the back post. He’s probably the best aerially of all of them. Surely he needs to be a spare man, centrally placed, to be able to attack the ball. As it turns out, Klose ends up as the man on the line! How can you end up with your ball winning, best header of a ball, on the line! 
 

4) Semenyo leaves his man, perhaps anticipating a counter attack, before we’ve even cleared the ball! 
 

5) Cundy is not ‘blocked’. He simply reacts slow to his man’s run and is playing catch up all the way. 
 

6) Scott swipes to clear the ball and completely misses it. 
 

7) Martin, the near post man, could easily attack the first ball but is easily blocked / outmuscled by a 5 foot 3 streak of wee. 
 

8 ) James never gets properly turned, whilst his man Wolfe is able to watch the ball all the way whilst facing goal. 
 

Quite literally, there is an error from every single player. That comes down to system, for me. The set up is poor and is not allowing the players to defend in the best possible way. 
 

2nd goal. 
Almost exactly the same problems. 
Weimann in no man’s land. Klose in the position least able to effect the play, Cundy loses his man, Martin easily blocked, Massengo & Atkinson both move with the same player, Semenyo and James both let their man get goal side. Plus, Bentley is moving backwards and his feet are planted behind the goal line when the header comes in and the ball passes him dead centre of the goal! 
 

Both of these corners are literally as bad as you can possibly get. 
 

Surely an easy remedy is to have Klose, Atkinson & Cundy lined up between the 6 yard line and the penalty spot. This gives them a greater chance of reacting to balls in and around that most dangerous of areas. This also frees up a little space so that if the ball is delivered inside the 6 yard box (above Martin as the near post cover), Bentley should be able to claim anything there. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Harry

[Cowshed]

36 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t disagree.  The decision becomes whether you stick rigidly to a 6 yard line for the “four” and ignore any opponents who stand between you and the keeper or not.

What would you for an inswinger in the pic above.  Martin 3 yards out, Atkinson and Klose 4 yards out.  Weimann for the short.  Kalas now a marker / blocker…about to be blocked off btw!!

The underlined player is there to effect the delivery of the ball. Inswingers. 

Citys zonal defenders are taking positions parralel to the above player. To defend an area where the ball is not be delivered to as the underlined effects the delivery. Its weird defending principle.

Positioning themselves zonally higher effects where the team is conceding goals. The players can still drop a metre for inswinging crosses.

It can be four and four, four and five (no short), four and six a hybrid of zonal blocking and man marking. Or the "four" can continue being all over the show and allowing the opponents to boss their house, their box like ... They should be insulted by being second. It is a mess. Bouncing balls in the box is kids football. The Manager, coaches and players might want to reflect on how poor that is.     

 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Cowshed

[Port Said Red]

I think the replies from our more technically minded posters confirm what I was saying, we have gone from what looked a reasonably organised defence at set pieces to players standing around aimlessly and unsure of their individual task. 

I can see why the players have to take some of the blame, if they are not supposed to be so deep then no one is taking responsibility to remind everyone of where they should be. My question is, if they are not changing things is that because the coaches are telling them to defend that deep?

[Daniro]

11 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I think the replies from our more technically minded posters confirm what I was saying, we have gone from what looked a reasonably organised defence at set pieces to players standing around aimlessly and unsure of their individual task. 

I can see why the players have to take some of the blame, if they are not supposed to be so deep then no one is taking responsibility to remind everyone of where they should be. My question is, if they are not changing things is that because the coaches are telling them to defend that deep?

Yes - I really appreciate the technical expertise we have at our disposal on this forum.   As someone who never played at any serious level, it can be difficult to know exactly what is going wrong.   I was fuming when those corners went in but it wasn't just that nobody seemed to know what they were supposed to be doing - it was more that none of them seemed to want to get to the ball first.    That's about desire and will to win.    They looked like they couldn't be bothered.

[chinapig]

26 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I think the replies from our more technically minded posters confirm what I was saying, we have gone from what looked a reasonably organised defence at set pieces to players standing around aimlessly and unsure of their individual task. 

I can see why the players have to take some of the blame, if they are not supposed to be so deep then no one is taking responsibility to remind everyone of where they should be. My question is, if they are not changing things is that because the coaches are telling them to defend that deep?

The only way we can answer your question is if somebody puts it to Nigel directly what the plan is when defending set pieces.

Indeed they could put the excellent analyses from @Davefevs @Cowshedand @Harryabove to him and ask for a response.

They won't of course and he would probably give them short shift if they did.

[Ben1980]

15 hours ago, David Brent said:

Isn’t Pat Mountain responsible for our set piece coaching? I’m sure I read that on here. Sorry if that’s wrong

No it’s Frank Spencer. 

[RedRock]

9 minutes ago, Daniro said:

Yes - I really appreciate the technical expertise we have at our disposal on this forum.   As someone who never played at any serious level, it can be difficult to know exactly what is going wrong.   I was fuming when those corners went in but it wasn't just that nobody seemed to know what they were supposed to be doing - it was more that none of them seemed to want to get to the ball first.    That's about desire and will to win.    They looked like they couldn't be bothered.

Yep.

Seems nobody is prepared to take responsibility, to lead, to get hit by the ball or an opponent. 

To the players, however carp the coaching is, if indeed that is the case, just bleeding ignore it. Be a winner, be a fighter, play for the shirt, deal with the situation, take personal responsibility …. if the ball is there go get it,  do a Bakes and win your battles, connect with it and get the ******* thing out of our box. If that involves flattening one of your half-arsed cosy club team mates in getting to that ball, then great.

To the coaches, if you haven’t realised by now, our players aren’t the most intelligent, keep the message simple ffs and judge them on the most simple of measures …. are they winners or are they losers?

Now go out and friggin destroy West Brom like your life depended on it. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Sorry they are too deep. Literally they are.

Here is another goal conceded. Couple of weeks ago. 

The zonal defending, I hesitate to call it that is not defending the zone around the edge of the six yard box. 

One metre, two metres up higher and these chances will not be conceded.  

Was that vs Middlesbrough? Thought Bentley was potentially impeded if anything. We do seem a bit deep however.

[Port Said Red]

One of the things that worries me is that I can't see a plan. I know there are many on here that moan(ed) about Lee Johnson's constant changes in personnel and/or style, but we rarely looked totally disorganised. Even if most of us couldn't work out the plan, the players usually looked like they had at least practiced that formation and tactics even if they turned out to be the wrong ones. 
In recent games, it has felt so disjointed that it almost feels like something was thought up on the morning of the game, I am concerned that any young players we bring in as the season ends could have their confidence knocked if they are left as exposed as Bell was against Birmingham for example.