Vyner - second chance

[Davefevs]

31 minutes ago, AshtonRobin21 said:

A blessing to Zak may be our current lack of options at RCB. When Kalas returns, Vyner will be pushed down the pecking order again. 

Most of our centre backs prefer to play on the left hand side. And Klose does not look the same player when played out of position. 

Our main options, other than Vyner are:

Kalas (RCB - Injured)

Naismith (CB or LCB)

Atkinson (LCB)

Klose (LCB)

Idehen (LCB or CB)

Towler (LCB or CB)

 

FWIW Klose has played most all of his career as the right side of a pair in a back four or either CB3 / RCB3 in a back three.  He’s played very few times at LCB3 until he came here.

In the first two pre-season games I thought he looked fine at RCB3.

But I guess we will see at 14:00 next Saturday.

If Vyner plays it’s because he’s earned it….and fair play to him if so.  Another versatile player should injuries hit…but not long term CB imho.

 

[Rossi the Robin]

Switching off is either lack of confidence or not caring I would guess

With Vyner I’d presume it’s confidence or he wouldn’t be getting the minutes 

There’s a good player in there and NP will try to build him up - defo not many chances left though 

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Rossi the Robin said:

Switching off is either lack of confidence or not caring I would guess

With Vyner I’d presume it’s confidence or he wouldn’t be getting the minutes 

There’s a good player in there and NP will try to build him up - defo not many chances left though 

Mental fatigue…catching up as the minutes tick by too might be it.

[AshtonRobin21]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

FWIW Klose has played most all of his career as the right side of a pair in a back four or either CB3 / RCB3 in a back three.  He’s played very few times at LCB3 until he came here.

In the first two pre-season games I thought he looked fine at RCB3.

But I guess we will see at 14:00 next Saturday.

If Vyner plays it’s because he’s earned it….and fair play to him if so.  Another versatile player should injuries hit…but not long term CB imho.

 

I might be sounding slightly harsh. 

He looked so good last season, that perhaps he has set himself extremely high expectations. 

By no means has he looked bad in pre-season, just perhaps not as assured as he did last year. 

My opinion on Vyner, is that for years I have hoped that he would be another academy player to push on and become a key player, but last season I felt like covering my eyes at times. He played us into trouble far too many times with sloppy passes and being caught out of position. 

As a squad player, fine. But when I see him in the starting line-up, I feel slightly uneasy. 

[JoeAman08]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

That for me is his biggest failing…needs to be more aggressive, both aerially and on the deck.

With a talker alongside him like Naismith or Klose we might see less switching off.

As @JoeAman08says, he’s cheap cover…at least until we bring in better.

Agree just think the better will be the kids coming through. Idk what his thoughts are on being a squad player for us but I think he might end up with a new deal. See how it goes with Kalas and Klose by the end of the season. If they leave it is Naismith, Atkinson, Towler and Idehen. Vyner ooc too I think but at his age and being a part of the squad already you’d think he has a chance. Right foot too whereas it seems all the kids are left footers!

[swanker]

Not bad on the ball but ALWAYS seems to have a mistake in him. 

[Rocking Red Cyril]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

That for me is his biggest failing…needs to be more aggressive, both aerially and on the deck.

With a talker alongside him like Naismith or Klose we might see less switching off.

As @JoeAman08says, he’s cheap cover…at least until we bring in better.

Got to totally agree with you Dave. Until he can be replaced and sold he is cover, cheap, and good fitness record. But it words me any other long term injury in defence makes him a starter. He needs a lot of guidance from his other defenders to keep him on the game . It's not idea but best we got at mo I suppose 

[Rocking Red Cyril]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

That for me is his biggest failing…needs to be more aggressive, both aerially and on the deck.

With a talker alongside him like Naismith or Klose we might see less switching off.

As @JoeAman08says, he’s cheap cover…at least until we bring in better.

Got to totally agree with you Dave. Until he can be replaced and sold he is cover, cheap, and good fitness record. But it words me any other long term injury in defence makes him a starter. He needs a lot of guidance from his other defenders to keep him on the game . It's not idea but best we got at mo I suppose 

I mean it's strikes me a new CBR is essential before the season start. Loan incoming ? Same with forward & DM. 

three incoming loans ?

can't see it but ............

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

Got to totally agree with you Dave. Until he can be replaced and sold he is cover, cheap, and good fitness record. But it words me any other long term injury in defence makes him a starter. He needs a lot of guidance from his other defenders to keep him on the game . It's not idea but best we got at mo I suppose 

I mean it's strikes me a new CBR is essential before the season start. Loan incoming ? Same with forward & DM. 

three incoming loans ?

can't see it but ............

I think much will depend on the timeline for getting Tomas back fit.  If he’s just a couple of weeks away then not an issue.  Michael Morrison and Michael Hector still without a contract.

Incredible the number of left sided CBs we have coming through.  Jamie Knight-Lebel is the next RCB in line!!!

[Rocking Red Cyril]

26 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think much will depend on the timeline for getting Tomas back fit.  If he’s just a couple of weeks away then not an issue.  Michael Morrison and Michael Hector still without a contract.

Incredible the number of left sided CBs we have coming through.  Jamie Knight-Lebel is the next RCB in line!!!

Still want a signing loan or what ever to cover that position  

[Bris Red]

15 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

I still like him. As said he is a cheap and versatile option. Isn’t there a rule you have to have so many club grown players in your match day squad? Granted that isn’t a massive issue at the minute.
 

I never understood the hate for him. He is probably a very good L1 player which makes him a good championship rotation player. If he has to play 30 times then your season probably isn’t the best. If you have a couple cbs out and need someone to throw in there there probably aren’t many better options from the bench in the division. Also think he is one of our better passers from back there. He will give it away because he can pop one into someones feet 30 yards away. He can hit that perfect ball over the top of the defence to a runner(cardiff away last season). Because he can do it he will have a few go astray. 
 

Not saying he should be starting for us. Just that for the money he is probably on and the versatility he offers, I can't understand why people are so quick to want rid of him. Towler and Idehen are good prospects but they would probably be more of a liability in a long term role than Vyner at this point. 

Sorry disagree. The amount of points Vyner has cost us IMO is indefensible. He is a liability. You cannot afford to have liabilities even as squad players at this level.

[JoeAman08]

56 minutes ago, bris red said:

Sorry disagree. The amount of points Vyner has cost us IMO is indefensible. He is a liability. You cannot afford to have liabilities even as squad players at this level.

How many points has he cost us? So we should go pay a fee and 13k a week for a 5th cb? Who are you replacing him with that won’t be a liability and would be cheap? Also they are happy to be a pro in training and in the dressing room while not playing much. At the minute in our current squad it is him or a couple of teenagers. 

Edited July 24, 2022 by JoeAman08

[Swede]

I think he'll play better with the likes of Naismith around him. A very smooth player unfortunately he has one too many "Derrick Williams like" aimless passes in him.

He suffers a bit because he came through at the same time as Lloyd Kelly. I've always thought he'd be a better defensive midfielder.

[Lanterne Rouge]

4 minutes ago, Swede said:

I think he'll play better with the likes of Naismith around him. A very smooth player unfortunately he has one too many "Derrick Williams like" aimless passes in him.

He suffers a bit because he came through at the same time as Lloyd Kelly. I've always thought he'd be a better defensive midfielder.

Me too.

[LondonBristolian]

Ultimately Pearson knows him and sees him in training and I don’t. I expected him to move on - and I suspect the plan was to move him out and get a new right sided centre back in - and it may be that that still happens, it may be that he has shown Pearson something he had not seen before or it may be that we either cannot move him on or cannot get the player we want and that he is staying because pragmatism has kicked in.

Vyner is not going to make it at this level unless he cuts out his mistakes, gets a bit braver in going for challenges and improves his concentration but nonetheless I think he was a bit of a scapegoat for some all round terrible defending last season. I agree with those who think League One is his current level but do not think he is anywhere near as bad as some have made out. 

If we sold him tomorrow and announced a new defender, I’d think it as a good move. But he has been fine in pre-season and, if Pearson thinks he has seen something that justifies starting him over Klose next Saturday, I’d trust Pearson’s judgement and be happy to assess Vyner’s performances this season with a clean slate.

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, JoeAman08 said:

How many points has he cost us? So we should go pay a fee and 13k a week for a 5th cb? Who are you replacing him with that won’t be a liability and would be cheap? Also they are happy to be a pro in training and in the dressing room while not playing much. At the minute in our current squad it is him or a couple of teenagers. 

Rather utilise Towler or Idehan, personally.

[2015]

Vyner has too many lapses in concentration at this level to ever be consistently a good player in the Championship. 

I just think he is a League 1 or 2 defender is all really and the mistakes he makes will always get punished in our League. He's got a good attitude, but not good enough

[spudski]

As a defender...Vyner is too passive for me.

Poor concentration levels and another imo...who enjoys being a footballer and it's trappings over actually playing the game.

I'd also prefer he moved on and Towler and Idehan were used instead.

Would be happy enough if he proved me wrong, but at 25 I think he's found his level. 

I wouldn't want him to block a pathway.

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, Sir Geoff said:

Rather utilise Towler or Idehan, personally.

Lets be fair, in his last appearance at this level Towler got handed his ass and looked absolutely miles off being ready. I realise youngsters improve but maybe he hasn't yet got to the standard where Pearson can ditch Vyner (not to mention he is left footed and wouldn't be played on the right hand side of a back three anyway). 

[big dosser]

im in the same boat as most with zac but there would be nothing better than him proving us wrong.

[steviestevieneville]

17 hours ago, Rossi the Robin said:

Switching off is either lack of confidence or not caring I would guess

With Vyner I’d presume it’s confidence or he wouldn’t be getting the minutes 

There’s a good player in there and NP will try to build him up - defo not many chances left though 

It’s a lack of concentration , nothing else . He’s done it all his career & I think he’s 25 now . It’s common in lower league defenders . Decision making is a major difference between top of the game & lower leagues , not just technical abilities. Swansea away last season was the final straw for me & it seemed Pearson . I’d be amazed if Zak plays many games this season 

[JoeAman08]

1 hour ago, Sir Geoff said:

Rather utilise Towler or Idehan, personally.

Both left footed which limits where they can play. And that is very football manager or fifa like thinking.  We saw Towler struggle the last time he got championship minutes. Idehen looks more solid but is still very raw on the ball. Vyner miles ahead of both of them at present.

Again most say he is a L1 standard player. That is very good 5th cb to have. If we needed 10 consecutive starts from one of the three, we’ll earn a lot more points with Vyner in there than Towler or Idehen. The scapegoating has seemingly caused a hatred for the bloke. 

[Numero Uno]

12 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

Both left footed which limits where they can play. And that is very football manager or fifa like thinking.  We saw Towler struggle the last time he got championship minutes. Idehen looks more solid but is still very raw on the ball. Vyner miles ahead of both of them at present.

Again most say he is a L1 standard player. That is very good 5th cb to have. If we needed 10 consecutive starts from one of the three, we’ll earn a lot more points with Vyner in there than Towler or Idehen. The scapegoating has seemingly caused a hatred for the bloke. 

We all know Zak’s issues at the level but what you say is the inconvenient truth RIGHT NOW which is why Zak is getting the higher number of minutes……….when his contract runs out he’s either got past his issues and finally fulfilled the promise he had or he will be gone assuming we are still in the Championship. Like I said previously Pearson is pragmatic in the short term but obviously has an eye on the longer term (otherwise he wouldn’t be using a very raw 17 year old left sided defender in pre season) and feels there is no need to can Vyner at the moment.

[The Swan and Cemetery]

13 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

Both left footed which limits where they can play. And that is very football manager or fifa like thinking.  We saw Towler struggle the last time he got championship minutes. Idehen looks more solid but is still very raw on the ball. Vyner miles ahead of both of them at present.

Again most say he is a L1 standard player. That is very good 5th cb to have. If we needed 10 consecutive starts from one of the three, we’ll earn a lot more points with Vyner in there than Towler or Idehen. The scapegoating has seemingly caused a hatred for the bloke. 

I’m more in this camp, we need to balance the books, so are unlikely to have armies of top 6 oven ready players as back up to the first XI. And if not having a mistake in them was a prerequisite for getting selected, it would less of an XI and more of a IV (at best) most Saturdays. Zak has the benefit of being able to cover multiple positions, maybe not to the standard we’d like, but given FFP and us not being Man City, think he’s a decent squad player, even if we were to bring in, say, Morrison. 20/30 mins here and there as needed, covering multiple positions, reduces the likelihood of concentration causing problems as well. NP’s repeated selection of Zak and not loaning/selling him (as yet) indicates attitude decent as well. 

[marcofisher]

I think Cundy leaving has probably rescued his City career. He will be the backup centre half that Cundy was intended to be.

The lad is still only 25, has good availability and most importantly, is CHEAP cover.

If we get rid of him, we would have to spend more getting another player which from a business perspective, would be a big no bueno. 

I imagine Pearson will want to keep him until the end of his contract (next year?) and then see if Towler or Idehen look a bit more ready.

[GrahamC]

Seems pretty clear reading Pearson’s post match comments that our financial situation is making it extremely difficult for us to do any more business at present.

As a result Zak is going to be around the squad unless that changes.

I think we probably expected to move him on & bring someone in, but clearly that hasn’t happened & so with Kalas unavailable & still on the payroll NP is taking a pragmatic view.

Still won’t be shocked if Klose starts & Vyner is on the bench though.

[Bris Red]

3 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

Rather utilise Towler or Idehan, personally.

This for me. As i said Vyner has been given his opportunities and has blown them. As harsh as that sounds that is unfortunately football. Time for the other youngsters in that position to be given some game time and see how they get on.

It would be interesting to hear Pearson’s opinions on Vyner - as others have said i get a feeling the plan was to sell him on but for what ever reason that hasn’t happened and we are somewhat lumbered with him for now.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, bris red said:

This for me. As i said Vyner has been given his opportunities and has blown them. As harsh as that sounds that is unfortunately football. Time for the other youngsters in that position to be given some game time and see how they get on.

It would be interesting to hear Pearson’s opinions on Vyner - as others have said i get a feeling the plan was to sell him on but for what ever reason that hasn’t happened and we are somewhat lumbered with him for now.

We need a RCB3 with Kalas out, so if Nige wants to play a back 3, then Idehen or Towler aren’t really viable option, Klose and Vyner are.

Both are so left footed.

I’m one for seeing how it pans out, although I hope that the influence of Naismith inside him can help.

[LondonBristolian]

3 hours ago, bris red said:

This for me. As i said Vyner has been given his opportunities and has blown them. As harsh as that sounds that is unfortunately football. Time for the other youngsters in that position to be given some game time and see how they get on.

It would be interesting to hear Pearson’s opinions on Vyner - as others have said i get a feeling the plan was to sell him on but for what ever reason that hasn’t happened and we are somewhat lumbered with him for now.

if we are lumbered with him then the onus is on Vyner. A year out the team is not going to help him when his contract expires so he has a year to either force his way into the long term picture or earn a good move elsewhere. He is not a kid anymore and it is down to him to prove he can step up. I am sceptical but I really hope he seizes the moment.

Edited July 24, 2022 by LondonBristolian

[NcnsBcfc]

Like others who have already posted, we all know that Vyner is a stop gap until we are able to replace him.

The main issue for me, is that from a supporter's point if view, you just know that mistake/lapse of concentration is coming at some stage whenever he is involved. Watching him from the Dolman, it's generally with an impending sense of doom.

Unfortunately over the years he has used up any goodwill of fans (unlike someone like Magnússon who also had a catastrophic mistake in him at times). So the first error he makes will be met with a huge groan, and a collective "FFS Vyner again" around the ground.

Must be so difficult as a defender to play in those circumstances, and his body language normally paints a thousand words when it happens.