Vyner - second chance

[Sir Geoff]

And he still hasn't learned, as witnessed with FGR's goal. Totally different level but the few times I played in defence, I was shattered mentally rather than my usual physical tiredness in midfield.

Any opposition manager would instruct their forwards to just keep coming in off his shoulder as you know he will switch off at least once in 90 minutes.

[bcfc01]

I've not been a Vyner fan, but I was at the game yesterday and he had a very good game as he generally did in the last game. One lapse let in Matt and its a goal, but the cross could also have been defended better.

Very few aimless punts upfield and lots of short crisp passes yesterday. He has a lot of ability as you would expect from a professional at this level, it's the other stuff that he's struggled with - aggression, concentration, positional discipline. You could say the same of Taylor Moore, very similar in that respect except Vyner is probably the more skillful , especially in tight situations. I'm not sure he's a stop gap, It may be that NP is looking at him long term with a view to letting Kalas go.

I've seen Klose on the right and it seems to me that he is very uncomfortable in that position. Vyner is quicker and not too bad in one in one situations and more comfortable in that position than Klose. I said earlier in pre-season that Klose on the right doesn't look secure, he needs to be in the middle. Contrary to what I've read on here and the local media, I thought Naismith had a poor game against good standard forward players yesterday, held onto the ball too long, slowed us down, and his passing was off. He looked good against lower level opposition in the middle, but he should be on the left to allow Klose, who is a better player imo, to be in the middle. But that would mean dropping Atkinson which isn't tenable as he's been virtually faultless.

So, for me, as it stands, Its Vyner, Klose, Atkinson with Naismith as back up, but I've no doubt that it will be Klose who misses out.

All about opinions..

 

[NcnsBcfc]

8 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

And he still hasn't learned, as witnessed with FGR's goal. Totally different level but the few times I played in defence, I was shattered mentally rather than my usual physical tiredness in midfield.

Any opposition manager would instruct their forwards to just keep coming in off his shoulder as you know he will switch off at least once in 90 minutes.

100% @Sir Geoff

I used to play as a defender, and the higher level you got  the more mental energy and focus it took.

One slip, or absence of concentration can lead to a late equaliser or winner for the opposition (Still can't get over quite how bad we were at this last season).

For me Vyner's name is out there now amoungest other managers as a player that can be targeted. He will be knows as a defender that can be pushed around, and dominated. 

Under the glare of the spotlight he tends to go into his shell, and then start to hide.

If I never see one of his aimless diagonal balls from the right back area to the left wing area again it will be too soon.

[NcnsBcfc]

1 minute ago, bcfc01 said:

I've not been a Vyner fan, but I was at the game yesterday and he had a very good game as he generally did in the last game. One lapse let in Matt and its a goal, but the cross could also have been defended better.

Very few aimless punts upfield and lots of short crisp passes yesterday. He has a lot of ability as you would expect from a professional at this level, it's the other stuff that he's struggled with - aggression, concentration, positional discipline. You could say the same of Taylor Moore, very similar in that respect except Vyner is probably the more skillful , especially in tight situations. I'm not sure he's a stop gap, It may be that NP is looking at him long term with a view to letting Kalas go.

I've seen Klose on the right and it seems to me that he is very uncomfortable in that position. Vyner is quicker and not too bad in one in one situations and more comfortable in that position than Klose. I said earlier in pre-season that Klose on the right doesn't look secure, he needs to be in the middle. Contrary to what I've read on here and the local media, I thought Naismith had a poor game against good standard forward players yesterday, held onto the ball too long, slowed us down, and his passing was off. He looked good against lower level opposition in the middle, but he should be on the left to allow Klose, who is a better player imo, to be in the middle. But that would mean dropping Atkinson which isn't tenable as he's been virtually faultless.

So, for me, as it stands, Its Vyner, Klose, Atkinson with Naismith as back up, but I've no doubt that it will be Klose who misses out.

All about opinions..

 

So you would play Vyner instead of Naismith???

Of course as you say all about opinions, but he was in the Championship team of the season last year at CB.

You could make the argument for Vyner instead of Klose. But not sure of the Vyner instead if Naismith one unfortunately.

[bcfc01]

1 minute ago, NcnsBcfc said:

So you would play Vyner instead of Naismith???

Of course as you say all about opinions, but he was in the Championship team of the season last year at CB.

You could make the argument for Vyner instead of Klose. But not sure of the Vyner instead if Naismith one unfortunately.

Naismith doesn't play on the right.

[NcnsBcfc]

4 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Naismith doesn't play on the right.

Indeed you would play him in the centre with probably Atkinson to his left, and or Klose or Vyner to his right surely?

I don't think anybody would be saying to play him at RCB, or that Klose is a better option than him in the centre at present.

[maxjak]

Pearson states that there won't be anymore incomings until more players leave?  Apart from Vyner, who else is he talking about?  We have let 5 go, and brought in 3 Free transfer's (I am aware Free transfers cost money).  I find it disappointing that our squad only needs a couple of injuries to majorly disrupt things ?  We need a defensive midfielder and another defender at least, as he knows,,  and i know, our squad is thin at present?  I do wonder why   Andy King has been given a contract, when i believe priorities lie elsewhere? 

Edited July 24, 2022 by maxjak

[LondonBristolian]

8 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Pearson states that there won't be anymore incomings until more players leave?  Apart from Vyner, who else is he talking about?  We have let 5 go, and brought in 3 Free transfer's (I am aware Free transfers cost money).  I find it disappointing that our squad only needs a couple of injuries to majorly disrupt things ?  We need a defensive midfielder and another defender at least, as he knows,,  and i know, our squad is thin at present?  I do wonder why   Andy King has been given a contract, when i believe priorities lie elsewhere? 

Wells and Massengo strike me as the only other two players we might be open to moving on for the right fee. Re King, I presume it is that he is low cost, a good influence in the squad, reduced the coaching workload and means we don’t need to spend more to cover Benarous’s injury. I’d not have offered him a contract but don’t think it has cost enough to have had a major impact on our other transfer business.

I agree our squad depth is not great but I don’t know where we can conjure money from. It is also worth bearing mind any Vyner replacement needs to be a capable defender at a low cost who is happy to be fourth or fifth choice. I find it utterly plausible we have gone through the realistic options and decided Vyner is a better option than anyone realistic and available.

[bcfc01]

18 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Indeed you would play him in the centre with probably Atkinson to his left, and or Klose or Vyner to his right surely?

I don't think anybody would be saying to play him at RCB, or that Klose is a better option than him in the centre at present.

Thats exactly what I am saying.

 

[Rocking Red Cyril]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

We need a RCB3 with Kalas out, so if Nige wants to play a back 3, then Idehen or Towler aren’t really viable option, Klose and Vyner are.

Both are so left footed.

I’m one for seeing how it pans out, although I hope that the influence of Naismith inside him can help.

When is Kala's expected back to fit to play

[Robbored]

9 hours ago, maxjak said:

Pearson states that there won't be anymore incomings until more players leave?  Apart from Vyner, who else is he talking about?  We have let 5 go, and brought in 3 Free transfer's (I am aware Free transfers cost money).  I find it disappointing that our squad only needs a couple of injuries to majorly disrupt things ?  We need a defensive midfielder and another defender at least, as he knows,,  and i know, our squad is thin at present?  I do wonder why   Andy King has been given a contract, when i believe priorities lie elsewhere? 

Nige sees King as a future coach - that’s part of his new contract. He’ll become involved in the coaching set up at City as well being able to continue making contributions on the pitch  - leading by example as player/coach.

A win win situation for all concerned.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Robbored

[RedRoss]

My main issue with Vyner asides from the lack of concentration and wayward passes. He can't head the ball. I know he's not the tallest of centre backs but he just doesn't leap and gets outmuscled often. It's a shame as he clearly has some ability and the attitude is right but I think he's got the wrong skill set for a defender but not enough in that skill set for a championship midfielder. Yet I'm happy to be proved wrong but its a massive weakness until Kalas is back.

[headhunter]

10 hours ago, maxjak said:

Pearson states that there won't be anymore incomings until more players leave?  Apart from Vyner, who else is he talking about?  We have let 5 go, and brought in 3 Free transfer's (I am aware Free transfers cost money).  I find it disappointing that our squad only needs a couple of injuries to majorly disrupt things ?  We need a defensive midfielder and another defender at least, as he knows,,  and i know, our squad is thin at present?  I do wonder why   Andy King has been given a contract, when i believe priorities lie elsewhere? 

King = future coach / buddy of Nige / supported the club as a boy

Whilst I know he has had a slight injury there have been few, if any, mentions of Josh Owers this preseason. He IS that defensive midfielder, albeit with zero experience, and surely he has to feature at some point? Wasn't he in the matchday18 a couple of times towards the end of the season?

[GrahamC]

13 minutes ago, headhunter said:

King = future coach / buddy of Nige / supported the club as a boy

Whilst I know he has had a slight injury there have been few, if any, mentions of Josh Owers this preseason. He IS that defensive midfielder, albeit with zero experience, and surely he has to feature at some point? Wasn't he in the matchday18 a couple of times towards the end of the season?

It is far more likely that Owers heads out on loan to L2 than he features for us.

Seems to be common knowledge he wasn’t lined up to go on the Austria tour at all until Dylan Kadji got injured, Pearson appears to rate the latter above him at present.

He was on the bench twice but never actually got on, so not sure that proves much.

Pearson obviously values having King in the squad, though few think he will feature all that often now.

[Port Said Red]

There is a potential new name in the mix as well with Raf Araoye apparently pushing himself forward very quickly. We have only seen him play LCB so far but he looked quite two footed from what I have seen so far. He looks an athlete in the Lloyd Kelly style.

[Robbored]

34 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

It is far more likely that Owers heads out on loan to L2 than he features for us.

Seems to be common knowledge he wasn’t lined up to go on the Austria tour at all until Dylan Kadji got injured, Pearson appears to rate the latter above him at present.

He was on the bench twice but never actually got on, so not sure that proves much.

Pearson obviously values having King in the squad, though few think he will feature all that often now.

In recent interviews King has said that he’s fully fit again and feels that he can still contribute to the team. No doubt that he’s been a top player throughout his career and his experience would be valuable to the younger players - some of whom will look up to him.

King and Williams both missed much of last season thru injury but are now fully fit again. The two of them in the engine room will be a formidable pairing.

[maxjak]

10 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

Wells and Massengo strike me as the only other two players we might be open to moving on for the right fee. Re King, I presume it is that he is low cost, a good influence in the squad, reduced the coaching workload and means we don’t need to spend more to cover Benarous’s injury. I’d not have offered him a contract but don’t think it has cost enough to have had a major impact on our other transfer business.

I agree our squad depth is not great but I don’t know where we can conjure money from. It is also worth bearing mind any Vyner replacement needs to be a capable defender at a low cost who is happy to be fourth or fifth choice. I find it utterly plausible we have gone through the realistic options and decided Vyner is a better option than anyone realistic and available.

I'm hoping that towards the end of the window Pearson brings in a prem loan player to bolster the squad, I am however still not sure what Pearson meant when he said no one likely to come in until players leave?  We know he wants to hold onto Massengo, and until Antoine is fit, we cannot let Wells go......so Vyner is the only candidate i can think of?

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, maxjak said:

I'm hoping that towards the end of the window Pearson brings in a prem loan player to bolster the squad, I am however still not sure what Pearson meant when he said no one likely to come in until players leave?  We know he wants to hold onto Massengo, and until Antoine is fit, we cannot let Wells go......so Vyner is the only candidate i can think of?

As Nige has said, incomings with only happen with outgoings.  Plus if Kalas and Semenyo are back before the window shuts (or nearing return) then the squad is big enough (caveat - outgoings above and any injuries that occur).

Any recruit will be for a reason, we won’t just get a PL loan for the sake of it.  A PL loan of the ability required to be better than what we have, e.g. someone like a Keinan Davis, a James Garner, etc, is probably beyond our budget.  Others come at risk of not being good enough / value for money, and might just be blocking pathway.

Many clubs use the loan market, but each summer they go into the window 4-5 players down…and need to replace them just to tread water.

Quite a few people getting excited by Millwall’s recruitment:

Looks really smart on paper.  It probably is on the pitch too!  But…

…look who they lost?

Afobe (loan) - ah, but they signed him too…so no squad improvement there

Jed Wallace - replaced by Flemming…who will do well to match what Jed did…so potentially a weaker signing, despite a £2m outlay.

Ballard (loan) - replaced by Cresswell who I don’t think is anywhere near as good as Ballard, who’s gone to Sunderland for £2m

squad fillers, Oji, Freeman, Burke, Mahoney, Kieftenbeld, all gone.  Honeyman is a good signing.

But do I see Millwall stronger than last season?  Nope.  Same?  Just about.

So 5 loans returning to their clubs puts summer recruitment under pressure straight away.

[maxjak]

31 minutes ago, Robbored said:

In recent interviews King has said that he’s fully fit again and feels that he can still contribute to the team. No doubt that he’s been a top player throughout his career and his experience would be valuable to the younger players - some of whom will look up to him.

King and Williams both missed much of last season thru injury but are now fully fit again. The two of them in the engine room will be a formidable pairing.

So King and Williams will be a formidable pairing?.....OK if you say so?

[maxjak]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

As Nige has said, incomings with only happen with outgoings.  Plus if Kalas and Semenyo are back before the window shuts (or nearing return) then the squad is big enough (caveat - outgoings above and any injuries that occur).

Any recruit will be for a reason, we won’t just get a PL loan for the sake of it.  A PL loan of the ability required to be better than what we have, e.g. someone like a Keinan Davis, a James Garner, etc, is probably beyond our budget.  Others come at risk of not being good enough / value for money, and might just be blocking pathway.

Many clubs use the loan market, but each summer they go into the window 4-5 players down…and need to replace them just to tread water.

Quite a few people getting excited by Millwall’s recruitment:

Looks really smart on paper.  It probably is on the pitch too!  But…

…look who they lost?

Afobe (loan) - ah, but they signed him too…so no squad improvement there

Jed Wallace - replaced by Flemming…who will do well to match what Jed did…so potentially a weaker signing, despite a £2m outlay.

Ballard (loan) - replaced by Cresswell who I don’t think is anywhere near as good as Ballard, who’s gone to Sunderland for £2m

squad fillers, Oji, Freeman, Burke, Mahoney, Kieftenbeld, all gone.  Honeyman is a good signing.

But do I see Millwall stronger than last season?  Nope.  Same?  Just about.

So 5 loans returning to their clubs puts summer recruitment under pressure straight away.

You make very valid points, as you always do.......but i was just thinking along the lines of just one young Fringe Prem player as a midfield defensive player. Surely with the stacks of young Prem players who are not in the various squads, we could maybe identify one such player?  We must surely have plenty of data and info on who is available and where?  Maybe i am being unrealistic, but could it not be   an option  ?

[GrahamC]

41 minutes ago, maxjak said:

So King and Williams will be a formidable pairing?.....OK if you say so?

I think he’s confused again.

I presume he’s thinking of James but you never can tell.

King is unlikely to even make the bench unless others (HNM, Sykes) are unavailable.

[Sir Geoff]

Where does a defensive midfielder fit into our system 

2 hours ago, headhunter said:

King = future coach / buddy of Nige / supported the club as a boy

Whilst I know he has had a slight injury there have been few, if any, mentions of Josh Owers this preseason. He IS that defensive midfielder, albeit with zero experience, and surely he has to feature at some point? Wasn't he in the matchday18 a couple of times towards the end of the season?

Where does a defensive midfielder fit into our system ? To accommodate one you would need to play him behind James and Williams and leave out Scott or Weimann. 

[Davefevs]

40 minutes ago, maxjak said:

You make very valid points, as you always do.......but i was just thinking along the lines of just one young Fringe Prem player as a midfield defensive player. Surely with the stacks of young Prem players who are not in the various squads, we could maybe identify one such player?  We must surely have plenty of data and info on who is available and where?  Maybe i am being unrealistic, but could it not be   an option  ?

Of course it’s an option.  If, big if, should Williams, James, Scott and Massengo all stay fit(ish), where might someone like Tim Iroegbunam of Villa and Scott’s England u19 teammate fit in?  That’s the question I can’t answer.

We aren’t playing with a typical Defensive Midfielder either.  Iroegbunam looks a good player though, I’m sure City have plenty of options on their radar should they need to react.

[Robbored]

2 hours ago, maxjak said:

So King and Williams will be a formidable pairing?.....OK if you say so?

You don’t agree?      

Two very experienced and adaptable midfielders, both very classy. Williams is more defensively minded, King is more attacking in style  - why wouldn’t they both play in the same engine room?

[marcofisher]

3 hours ago, GrahamC said:

It is far more likely that Owers heads out on loan to L2 than he features for us.

Seems to be common knowledge he wasn’t lined up to go on the Austria tour at all until Dylan Kadji got injured, Pearson appears to rate the latter above him at present.

He was on the bench twice but never actually got on, so not sure that proves much.

Pearson obviously values having King in the squad, though few think he will feature all that often now.

Is Owers up to L2 level, didn't really hear of him tearing up trees at Bath City? Would have thought another non-league loan. 

[Gert Mare]

Zak Vyner in my opinion is a liability.

Flat footed, casual / lazy, ball watches, switches off, plays too many long balls which squanders possession.

Mistakes have been made and then are repeated over and over again.

Just not good enough. Would be a liability if given ANY game time.

 

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Is Owers up to L2 level, didn't really hear of him tearing up trees at Bath City? Would have thought another non-league loan. 

FWIW I thought he came back from his loan at Bath looking a completely different player (in a good way).  Was really good in the u23s, and for me is closer to the first team than Kadji, who I think Owers does all the leg work for.

Be interesting to see what the plans are for him.

[SecretSam]

So it's make or break for Vyner, fair enough. But if the manager thinks he should be given a chance, let's give him that chance. Our defence last season was so shambolic, it hardly warrants laying all the blame on one man.

Maybe he'll do a Bobby Reid...

[LondonBristolian]

3 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

Where does a defensive midfielder fit into our system 

Where does a defensive midfielder fit into our system ? To accommodate one you would need to play him behind James and Williams and leave out Scott or Weimann. 

I don't think it would be a case of three at the back AND a defensive midfielder. It would be more about an option to either play 3-4-1-2 or 4-3-1-2 depending on whether the opposition warrants us inviting pressure and hitting them on the counter or sticking an extra body in midfield in order to control the game a bit more.

I'm not going to pretend to have any real knowledge how good Kadji or Owers are but, if one of them could step up into that role (or we could make a signing of a defensive midfielder) it would give us flexibility to change our shape without completely overhauling the game plan and instructions for the other ten players in the team. 

Edited July 25, 2022 by LondonBristolian

[Sir Geoff]

5 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I don't think it would be a case of three at the back AND a defensive midfielder. It would be more about an option to either play 3-4-1-2 or 4-3-1-2 depending on whether the opposition warrants us inviting pressure and hitting them on the counter or sticking an extra body in midfield in order to control the game a bit more.

I'm not going to pretend to have any real knowledge how good Kadji or Owers are but, if one of them could step up into that role (or we could make a signing of a defensive midfielder) it would give us flexibility to change our shape without completely overhauling the game plan and instructions for the other ten players in the team. 

I don't disagree re flexibility of system, which can be a good thing. It can also cause problems by taking you away from your preferred system. atm our players and style of play suit a 3412. To me a defensive midfielder is a deep lying midfielder (ala Makalele) that plays just in front of the back  3/4. In your examples we would have to go 31312 or 41212, both leaving us narrow and lacking in width.

In our current system if you need more defensive cover then the wing backs play deeper and you bring one of the front 3 off and bolster the 2 man midfield.