We Need to Talk About Kal

[GrahamC]

53 minutes ago, johnheadbcfc said:

The amount of people that would moan on here if he just smashed it up to the other teams defence is a joke. We haven't had a defender with his class for years, let's not forget he takes 90% of set pieces.

 

Which is specifically why I used the phrase “decision making” I certainly don’t want to see relentless aerial passing or aimless channel balls, but also, at Blackpool in the 92nd minute & last night when he played a short backpass to Bentley in the 88th minute, there absolutely is a right time to go long & away from our goal.

This isn’t binary, plus just to make it obvious to all, I’m pleased we signed him & he significantly improves us, but he needs to think about when it just is miles better to get the ball down the other end, depending on the time left, score, etc.

[red colin]

3 hours ago, Dr Balls said:

The reality is that he is a midfielder who is only playing his second season as a centre back and at Championship level. The mistakes he makes on the ball might be tolerated (just) if he was in midfield (for example Massengo giving the ball away) but are going to get punished more severely if you are the last player at the back. It’s exactly what happened against both Sunderland and Blackpool when we conceded sloppy goals after he either lost the ball or gave it away, so on that basis you could say it’s at least 3 points he has caused us to lose. However other aspects of his game are very good, he just needs a bit of a talking too and coaching from Nige about how to play as a central defender in dangerous situations, and not putting himself in them unnecessary. 

Absolutely correct its what I have been saying for quite a while, it's screaming out to me to put him forward. You can have Massengo Williams or  scott alongside

               Bentley

    Vyner klose Atkinson 

Sykes Williams naismith Dasilva 

[italian dave]

41 minutes ago, bexhill reds said:

 

The Atkinson pass was a shocker, but by and large he’s brought some consistency to the back 3, arguably Vyner and Atkinson are much better players with him there.

Yes, I think that’s  a very valid point. Naismith is much more of a leader in that sense and will help Vyner and Atkinson improve and manage their game. More so than Kalas: not knocking Kalas, love him as a player, but that’s not his personality. 

[Dr Balls]

4 minutes ago, red colin said:

Absolutely correct its what I have been saying for quite a while, it's screaming out to me to put him forward. You can have Massengo Williams or  scott alongside

               Bentley

    Vyner klose Atkinson 

Sykes Williams naismith Dasilva 

And in the last 2 games it’s been these shocking long passes across the front of the penalty area. The one towards Vyner at Blackpool led to their equaliser to make it 3-3 and last night he played a similar suicide sideways long ball towards Atkinson that was cut out by one of the Huddersfield forwards and could easily have led to another goal. As a former centre half (admittedly at a very low level by comparison) even we were taught as kids not to play balls like that.

[Numero Uno]

9 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think there has to be an acceptance here of risk vs reward. 
 

We’ve decided to play from the back, and generally through Kal. As a result, he sees more ball than practically everyone and plays the game as risk vs reward - if he turns the forward, we’re in - if he doesn’t we may be in trouble. 
 

I kind of accept him getting caught in possession on that basis. I’m less positive if he plays dodgy passes, but on balance I think the fact he’s been key to our way of playing is more good than bad.

Related point: Bents is doing better than most thought he would with his feet.

That sums it up. The passes he plays into midfield make us a far better team that can play on the front foot and as a result we look like scoring loads of goals this season. We all know the downside and we also all know that if Naismith could do it all without any of the mistakes..................guess which club he wouldn't be playing for.

[johnheadbcfc]

35 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

That sums it up. The passes he plays into midfield make us a far better team that can play on the front foot and as a result we look like scoring loads of goals this season. We all know the downside and we also all know that if Naismith could do it all without any of the mistakes..................guess which club he wouldn't be playing for.

Agreed

[Gimme Shelton]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

That sums it up. The passes he plays into midfield make us a far better team that can play on the front foot and as a result we look like scoring loads of goals this season. We all know the downside and we also all know that if Naismith could do it all without any of the mistakes..................guess which club he wouldn't be playing for.

I like him and what he brings to the team,I just think that he isn't quite as good as he thinks he is sometimes. Doesn't need to over complicate situations,I'm sure Nige has told him.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, red colin said:

Absolutely correct its what I have been saying for quite a while, it's screaming out to me to put him forward. You can have Massengo Williams or  scott alongside

               Bentley

    Vyner klose Atkinson 

Sykes Williams naismith Dasilva 

The big question then becomes - how do you get the ball to Naismith without Naismith being at the back to pass it to him?

You can’t just move a player and move all of the “play and patterns” 15-20 yards forward with him.

Same argument / question for those who say he should play LCB3.  1) that means he only becomes an influence when we play down the left side, so you negate “half”of the positives you bring.  It’s a similar argument to Better Red saying Antoine should play wide forward…it lessens his chance of getting on the ball, because a lot of the play will go down the opposite flank.

All (!!!) Kal needs to do is just make the odd decision better, some of his defensive work last night was very good, so it’s not like he’s a one-trip “passing pony”, he can defend too.

We are still evolving this system.  I’m not blaming Atkinson at all for the bad pass, but maybe he comes a bit narrower next time, because he sees the threat of an underhit pass.  As understandings and partnerships build, these things can be reduced.

[NcnsBcfc]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

The big question then becomes - how do you get the ball to Naismith without Naismith being at the back to pass it to him?

You can’t just move a player and move all of the “play and patterns” 15-20 yards forward with him.

Same argument / question for those who say he should play LCB3.  1) that means he only becomes an influence when we play down the left side, so you negate “half”of the positives you bring.  It’s a similar argument to Better Red saying Antoine should play wide forward…it lessens his chance of getting on the ball, because a lot of the play will go down the opposite flank.

All (!!!) Kal needs to do is just make the odd decision better, some of his defensive work last night was very good, so it’s not like he’s a one-trip “passing pony”, he can defend too.

We are still evolving this system.  I’m not blaming Atkinson at all for the bad pass, but maybe he comes a bit narrower next time, because he sees the threat of an underhit pass.  As understandings and partnerships build, these things can be reduced.

Speaking to Graham about him at last night's game @Davefevs

It's clear watching him, that he's been converted to a CB from another position. The concentration needed to play in that position is immense at times, one mistake; and that could be the game over.

Very different to the pressures in other positions on the pitch. Without the grounding over 10+ years of Academy football playing that role, you can easily fall into bad habits when you're a bit tired or not focused.

For me though, he is so crucial to the way that we are playing ( god knows what we would do if he got injured, as he has no real preplacement in the team), that like others have said, you have to balance the risk/reward element to his game at the moment.

I'm sure I read a review of him from Luton fans when we signed him saying "Great player, but he has a mistake in him". I would be amazed if we didn't see future mistakes from him over the course of the season. He does take unnecessary risks at times, hopefully there will continue to be more pluses than minuses to his game.  

[eardun]

11 hours ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

The cruyff turn in the second half while defending was outrageous. 

Risky perhaps, but fun and memorable to watch. I’m loving watching a CB with so much confidence on the ball. A great character too - no going into his shell after an error; he just gets back out there demanding the ball. Love it. 

[Dynamite Red]

For me he has been the catalyst to our more expansive play. May even be our most creative player. Yes he will make mistakes but he is crucial to this team. Needs very competent and experienced centre backs playing alongside him to counter balance.

[Taylor10]

27 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The big question then becomes - how do you get the ball to Naismith without Naismith being at the back to pass it to him?

You can’t just move a player and move all of the “play and patterns” 15-20 yards forward with him.

Same argument / question for those who say he should play LCB3.  1) that means he only becomes an influence when we play down the left side, so you negate “half”of the positives you bring.  It’s a similar argument to Better Red saying Antoine should play wide forward…it lessens his chance of getting on the ball, because a lot of the play will go down the opposite flank.

All (!!!) Kal needs to do is just make the odd decision better, some of his defensive work last night was very good, so it’s not like he’s a one-trip “passing pony”, he can defend too.

We are still evolving this system.  I’m not blaming Atkinson at all for the bad pass, but maybe he comes a bit narrower next time, because he sees the threat of an underhit pass.  As understandings and partnerships build, these things can be reduced.

Have you got any stats from here on how many times people call him ‘Kai’ as opposed to ‘Kal’

In all seriousness though you are bang on. The system is still evolving and we need to allow it time. Plus we haven’t had an accomplished ball playing centre half since Webster.

[shelts]

He excites me the way he plays the game . Want him on the ball to get us going . He gets caught out but that’s ok he’s trying to play , hopefully more to come and fewer lapses 

[2015]

It is clear he was signed with the intent of us playing out from the back. 80% of the time he is fantastic at it. If he makes a mistake then so be it, that's clearly how we are aiming to set up most games and i'm all for it as that's what I'd rather watch than long ball. Sometimes just needs to not be too casual and just hit it to the corners when leading late on in games.

[Bris Red]

Call me old school but i like defenders who can first and foremost bloody defend. Bollox to the set pieces get the basics right for your position first!

[redysteadygo]

18 minutes ago, Taylor10 said:

Have you got any stats from here on how many times people call him ‘Kai’ as opposed to ‘Kal’

In all seriousness though you are bang on. The system is still evolving and we need to allow it time. Plus we haven’t had an accomplished ball playing centre half since Webster.

Webster has only been gone 3 years, how many would you have expected? Have been watching City for 67 years and I can't recall many if any.

[eardun]

56 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m not blaming Atkinson at all for the bad pass, but maybe he comes a bit narrower next time, because he sees the threat of an underhit pass.  As understandings and partnerships build, these things can be reduced.

Having just watched the highlights Atkinson did not react quickly enough - he could have come towards the ball but he was rooted to the spot. Clearly Naismith’s error but he could have lessened the impact in my view. 

[Davefevs]

28 minutes ago, Taylor10 said:

Have you got any stats from here on how many times people call him ‘Kai’ as opposed to ‘Kal’

In all seriousness though you are bang on. The system is still evolving and we need to allow it time. Plus we haven’t had an accomplished ball playing centre half since Webster.

To be fair, when he was at Wigan I thought he was called “KAI”, so I’ve been guilty in the past.

8 minutes ago, Bris Red said:

Call me old school but i like defenders who can first and foremost bloody defend. Bollox to the set pieces get the basics right for your position first!

He does defend really well…but he makes mistakes too.

[archie andrews]

11 minutes ago, redysteadygo said:

Webster has only been gone 3 years, how many would you have expected? Have been watching City for 67 years and I can't recall many if any.

I can.... Glenn humphries

[GrahamC]

10 minutes ago, redysteadygo said:

Webster has only been gone 3 years, how many would you have expected? Have been watching City for 67 years and I can't recall many if any.

Gary Collier was one, absolute Rolls Royce & done at a higher standard, too.

Not sure Louis Carey was exactly shabby, either.

Biff as well..

[Taylor10]

14 minutes ago, redysteadygo said:

Webster has only been gone 3 years, how many would you have expected? Have been watching City for 67 years and I can't recall many if any.

That’s my point. The system is evolving and we as fans aren’t used to a centre half that can play a bit.
 

I like Naismith and I like defenders that defend first and foremost, but also can play/are comfortable on the ball. We certainly haven’t been spoilt with many of these over the years. I would probably say the last before Webster would of been Caulker.

[redysteadygo]

2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Gary Collier was one, absolute Rolls Royce & done at a higher standard, too.

Not sure Louis Carey was exactly shabby, either.

Biff as well..

Appreciate what you are saying bit I feel those you mentioned were different type of players than the normal centre halves of their eras and would play a bit but not to the extent of being a classy " ball playing centre half".

[Bristol Oil Services]

13 minutes ago, eardun said:

Having just watched the highlights Atkinson did not react quickly enough - he could have come towards the ball but he was rooted to the spot. Clearly Naismith’s error but he could have lessened the impact in my view. 

Atkinson needs to be thinking in all games at all times: he's going to pass it to me. He's going to pass it to me. Even when everyone in the ground is thinking: he really needs to just get rid here, Atkinson needs to also be thinking: he's going to bloody pass it, this is coming to me. Everyone at the back needs to think like this.

Like a boy scout, Atkinson, Vyner et al need to prepared. Be prepared for the ball to head his way from Naismith. And like Clouseau, they need to be expecting the ball when they are least expecting it. With Naismith, there is no: "not now, Kal" option. Not at Brammall bloody Lane there isn't. 

[hinsleburg]

I think Naismith has been great, whilst the mistakes our frustrating and have cost us I think this is part of the rollercoaster and something we need to accept. As others have said I think the positives outweigh the negatives in terms of our approach and I'm hoping the more he plays that role the less mistakes get made throughout the course of the season.

I must say as well, I have been absolutely blown away by Atkinson this season, I liked him a lot last year  but he is a completely different animal right now! Genuinely think we are a fit and fighting Kalas away from having a Top 6 defence. If we can somehow keep Williams fit and playing every other game providing that cover and bite in midfield with the attacking options we have we could genuinely cause an upset this season and be there or thereabouts for top 6. Would need a lot of luck with injuries and lots of players somehow keeping form throughout the season but I'm genuinely excited.

Pearson gets some stick at times, whilst I don't agree with it I can sometimes see why, but the building blocks he's put in place since coming and the work that has been done clearing deadwood has put us in such a strong position on the pitch! Even just looking at the options on the bench last night and could make a case for most of them starting which can only be a good thing!

Hoping Kal stays fit as think he's crucial to all this

[Super]

Will be interesting to see him against the top teams in this league.

[marcofisher]

3 hours ago, red colin said:

Absolutely correct its what I have been saying for quite a while, it's screaming out to me to put him forward. You can have Massengo Williams or  scott alongside

               Bentley

    Vyner klose Atkinson 

Sykes Williams naismith Dasilva 

Disagree, the reason he has been so impressive is having time at the back to thread the ball through the lines. He was not signed to play in midfield. We already have Scott and to a lesser extent Massengo in midfield who are more athletic and also have the technical ability to pick a pass. 

[Red-Robbo]

12 hours ago, GrahamC said:

had Vyner had played those 2 passes people would be going mental.

 

Vyner did play a feeble back pass and only the post saved his blushes. He seemed to spend most of the game running backwards whenever Sorba Thomas was advancing with the ball.  Naismith at least isn't terrified to tackle. 

However, I do take people's point that KN always has a mistake in him and unfortunately, when you play in that position, mistakes often lead to your side conceeding. Against a better side, last night's clangers would have.

He has to learn that discretion is the better part of valour, and sometimes an agricultural hoof upfield and into touch, is better than trying to retain possession when opponents are threatening. 

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, Super said:

Will be interesting to see him against the top teams in this league.

That will be the acid test. Will we retain the same threat and can we cut out daft mistakes that WILL get punished by the likes of Burnley, Norwich and Watford. That said if the style of play allows us to get enough results and keeps us away from treading water that will do me for this season. Then the FFP gets easier and we can genuinely strengthen the areas needed albeit we will lose 2-3 of our best players..

[Alessandro]

I love Kal.

If he played how some of you are talking like he ‘should’ be playing, he’d be in the  premier league. 

Or certainly not playing for us.

For me he’s one of the key reasons for our improvement, that player who is genuinely comfortable on the ball at the back, someone we’ve not had for a while and you see how it filters through the rest of the team.

Yes there will be mistakes, it comes with the territory for those types of players in that danger zone/high press area at this level. But I for one am willing to be patient and I’m sure he’ll settle down a bit. 

[ExiledAjax]

I think he's well worth the price of the odd individual error.

I've just run some rough numbers comparing the general state of our defence this season to the state it was in over the closing 10 games of last season. I'd normally say that it's a little early to do this but the discussions on this thread got me wondering.

Signs are good. Beneath the headline figure of 3 clean sheets and a GD of +4 we see that shots on target against per game are down from an average of 4.5 over those final 10 games, to 3.3 this season, that's a 27% reduction in the number of times that Bentley is being forced into making a save. That is huge. 

That is reflected in the xG against. There we see a decline of 25%, from an average of 1.6 per game to 1.2 per game so far this season. A significant reduction in the overall likelihood of conceding.

I'm not saying Naismith is the sole reason for this improvement, we've gone from a back 3 of Klose/Atkinson/Cundy in the closing stages of last season to one of Atkinson/Naismith/Vyner at the start of this one, but he's really the only truly new recruit in defence (yes Sykes plays a role but the RWB position as we play it is that of a part-time defender). If he's not the sole reason then it's a fair supposition that he's influential on these improvements.

Combine this with the continuity of good form in attack, and you cans ee that the numbers support our good form so far this season. We aren't fluking games, we aren't relying on fortunate or better-than-expected performances. We're getting what we deserve.