We Need to Talk About Kal

[Supersonic Robin]

5 hours ago, Mad Cyril said:

I am so confused.

We are playing the best, most entertaining possession based football for years, much of it starting through Naismith... and people are saying they want safe hoofball again as we might concede a goal.

Who wants to be Preston?

Incredible isn't it?

For years we've seen people moaning on here about the quality of football. There's been a thousand comments akin to "I wouldn't mind us being midtable if we weren't so f****** BORING! I just want to see some good football! "

Now we start playing good quality exciting football and the same fans are moaning about us "dicking about with it at the back instead of just getting it forward".

 

 

[johnheadbcfc]

6 minutes ago, Supersonic Robin said:

Incredible isn't it?

For years we've seen people moaning on here about the quality of football. There's been a thousand comments akin to "I wouldn't mind us being midtable if we weren't so f****** BORING! I just want to see some good football! "

Now we start playing good quality exciting football and the same fans are moaning about us "dicking about with it at the back instead of just getting it forward".

 

 

Some bloke behind me last night must of screamed forward about 100 times.

 

The comments in here the last few days are mental, especially the one saying that Nahki Wells doesn't work hard, jogs about and does not press.

[Mad Cyril]

In a John Cleese voice:

"Apart from set pieces, assists, driving runs, the ability to beat a player, tackles, leadership of the back line, a wonderful first touch and great positional sense..... just what has Naismith ever done for us?".......

[Ian M]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

I think he's well worth the price of the odd individual error.

I've just run some rough numbers comparing the general state of our defence this season to the state it was in over the closing 10 games of last season. I'd normally say that it's a little early to do this but the discussions on this thread got me wondering.

Signs are good. Beneath the headline figure of 3 clean sheets and a GD of +4 we see that shots on target against per game are down from an average of 4.5 over those final 10 games, to 3.3 this season, that's a 27% reduction in the number of times that Bentley is being forced into making a save. That is huge. 

That is reflected in the xG against. There we see a decline of 25%, from an average of 1.6 per game to 1.2 per game so far this season. A significant reduction in the overall likelihood of conceding.

I'm not saying Naismith is the sole reason for this improvement, we've gone from a back 3 of Klose/Atkinson/Cundy in the closing stages of last season to one of Atkinson/Naismith/Vyner at the start of this one, but he's really the only truly new recruit in defence (yes Sykes plays a role but the RWB position as we play it is that of a part-time defender). If he's not the sole reason then it's a fair supposition that he's influential on these improvements.

Combine this with the continuity of good form in attack, and you cans ee that the numbers support our good form so far this season. We aren't fluking games, we aren't relying on fortunate or better-than-expected performances. We're getting what we deserve.

I think a small contributing factor is also the switch to Wells/Conway up front who combined do more effective pressing than Martin/Semenyo did in the final 10 games (this isn't a slant on Antoine who I believe would have pressed as much, he just hasn't been available).

Combine that with us keeping possession better as a whole team and that gives the opponents less ball to shoot with. Plus we've now been using this system for getting on for half a season and players are becoming more an more familiar with their roles within it (and the ability/preferences of their teammates).

[red colin]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The big question then becomes - how do you get the ball to Naismith without Naismith being at the back to pass it to him?

You can’t just move a player and move all of the “play and patterns” 15-20 yards forward with him.

Same argument / question for those who say he should play LCB3.  1) that means he only becomes an influence when we play down the left side, so you negate “half”of the positives you bring.  It’s a similar argument to Better Red saying Antoine should play wide forward…it lessens his chance of getting on the ball, because a lot of the play will go down the opposite flank.

All (!!!) Kal needs to do is just make the odd decision better, some of his defensive work last night was very good, so it’s not like he’s a one-trip “passing pony”, he can defend too.

We are still evolving this system.  I’m not blaming Atkinson at all for the bad pass, but maybe he comes a bit narrower next time, because he sees the threat of an underhit pass.  As understandings and partnerships build, these things can be reduced.Naismith 

If klose or Atkinson or Bentley can't pick a 5 or 10 yd pass to Naismith just in front I'd drop all 3.its not moving all play 15 or 20 yds on and he can come and get it off them also.if he hadn't made the errors he has so far we would have at least 3 extra points which is only a few games .over a season how many points are you happy to drop unnecessarily?

[JoeAman08]

I swear only city fans can turn a good thing into a negative

It is his second full season as a CB. His first playing in the middle of a 3 as a playmaker. We look so much better in possession now with him. Van Dijk, Dias, Thiago Silva and Sergio Ramos have all made mistakes passing the ball or spending too much time on it. Relax and enjoy us being comfortable in possession. 
 

For a converted winger, I think he is outstanding back there. Only going to get better with more minutes. His pass last night I think was a moment where he thought he could get away with it and did not. Lesson learned and we move on. 
 

We are 7th. We have had 3 straight 2-0 at home. We look a threat not only as a countering side but much better in possession and more of a set piece threat. We have had the lead in every game on top of all that. The positives are everywhere and they have been hard to find the last 3 seasons and yet we are getting threads like this. 

[Ian M]

8 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

I swear only city fans can turn a good thing into a negative

It is his second full season as a CB. His first playing in the middle of a 3 as a playmaker. We look so much better in possession now with him. Van Dijk, Dias, Thiago Silva and Sergio Ramos have all made mistakes passing the ball or spending too much time on it. Relax and enjoy us being comfortable in possession. 
 

For a converted winger, I think he is outstanding back there. Only going to get better with more minutes. His pass last night I think was a moment where he thought he could get away with it and did not. Lesson learned and we move on. 
 

We are 7th. We have had 3 straight 2-0 at home. We look a threat not only as a countering side but much better in possession and more of a set piece threat. We have had the lead in every game on top of all that. The positives are everywhere and they have been hard to find the last 3 seasons and yet we are getting threads like this. 

Not just that but I have used the excellent Transfermarkt website and found that Luton only used him as the centre of the 3 for about half his games at CB last year. He was shunted around the team at LB, DCM, LCB & RCB for the other games. 

If he was the sort whose confidence looked affected after a mistake, I might have more of a concern but it clearly isn't and I believe that the more we play him consistently in that central position the better his decision making will become.

[ExiledAjax]

4 minutes ago, Ian M said:

I think a small contributing factor is also the switch to Wells/Conway up front who combined do more effective pressing than Martin/Semenyo did in the final 10 games (this isn't a slant on Antoine who I believe would have pressed as much, he just hasn't been available).

Combine that with us keeping possession better as a whole team and that gives the opponents less ball to shoot with. Plus we've now been using this system for getting on for half a season and players are becoming more an more familiar with their roles within it (and the ability/preferences of their teammates).

Yeh, the overall improvement is naturally going to be a result of improvements in many areas of the pitch. That's what I was trying to set out, within the defence only, when I say that I don't think it can all be attributed to Naismith.

Pressing is interesting. I don't have the data breakdown for blocks of games, but just looking at our passes per defensive action (PPDA) we see that last season, as a whole over the entire season, it was 13.3, and so far this season it is 12.5, So we are allowing our opponents one pass less before we win possession back. Suggests a slightly more intense, or perhaps better enacted, press.

The other interesting one, and perhaps this is more relevant if we are trying to figure out if our strikers have improved their press, is high turnovers. Last season we had 293 across 46 games - 6.4 per game. In these first seven games alone we've racked up 55 - 7.9 per game. So an improvement there.

Tricky with the pressing stuff as you're comparing 46 games to 7, but the indication is that yes there's been an improvement in the pressing. I agree, that should help alleviate pressure on the defence. High turnovers should result in us attacking them rather than the other way round (saw a fair bit of that last night didn't we).

[spudski]

The debate reflects the concerns NP had in his post match interview.

Pleased with the result...but pointed out areas where we could improve and to stop making life difficult for ourselves by giving the opposition easier opportunities.

 

[Ian M]

5 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Yeh, the overall improvement is naturally going to be a result of improvements in many areas of the pitch. That's what I was trying to set out, within the defence only, when I say that I don't think it can all be attributed to Naismith.

Pressing is interesting. I don't have the data breakdown for blocks of games, but just looking at our passes per defensive action (PPDA) we see that last season, as a whole over the entire season, it was 13.3, and so far this season it is 12.5, So we are allowing our opponents one pass less before we win possession back. Suggests a slightly more intense, or perhaps better enacted, press.

The other interesting one, and perhaps this is more relevant if we are trying to figure out if our strikers have improved their press, is high turnovers. Last season we had 293 across 46 games - 6.4 per game. In these first seven games alone we've racked up 55 - 7.9 per game. So an improvement there.

Tricky with the pressing stuff as you're comparing 46 games to 7, but the indication is that yes there's been an improvement in the pressing. I agree, that should help alleviate pressure on the defence. High turnovers should result in us attacking them rather than the other way round (saw a fair bit of that last night didn't we).

There was that double press in the second half that was really great viewing. First we pressed and won the ball, unfortunately (just as at Blackpool - which I believe was the reason for the equaliser!) the attempted through ball bounced off the heals of our attacker and we lost possession, only to immediately press again and win the ball back

Two chances for a counter snuffed.

 

At Blackpool we did win the ball back too but then did our unforced error to gift them the third goal. Had we not got the pass wrong/been unlucky with the ball catching the heals, we aren't even in position for Nais to put that pass to Vyner.

[bcfc01]

33 minutes ago, johnheadbcfc said:

Some bloke behind me last night must of screamed forward about 100 times.

 

The comments in here the last few days are mental, especially the one saying that Nahki Wells doesn't work hard, jogs about and does not press.

You must have been near me in E31, bloke was a nause, at least once a minute "FORWAAARD" or "GET UP". Nothing else, other than generally moan.

So much so, I actually looked this morning (via the ticketing site) to see if his seat was a ST seat. If it was, I was going to move mine, he isn't a ST holder (first time this season he's been there thank Christ).

 

[JoeAman08]

5 minutes ago, Ian M said:

Not just that but I have used the excellent Transfermarkt website and found that Luton only used him as the centre of the 3 for about half his games at CB last year. He was shunted around the team at LB, DCM, LCB & RCB for the other games. 

If he was the sort whose confidence looked affected after a mistake, I might have more of a concern but it clearly isn't and I believe that the more we play him consistently in that central position the better his decision making will become.

For me he plays in a way that takes some getting used to. It is very easy to remember the mistakes. How many times has he done a cruyff out of trouble or picked out a good forward pass to a strikers feet? No one can tell you the number but it has been done plenty of times. 
 

The pass last night is something I do not think he repeats. The one against Sunderland may happen again. That has to be understood with how we are building up play. He has been given tons of responsibility and imo is thriving. The odd bad thing will happen to him but you can tell he sets a high standard for himself by his reactions to his mistakes. That is leading by example and he is also quick to let others know when the have a lapse. For me, he is a massive reason we look as good as we do early on. Dropping Martin helped take us up a level but we looked good before that and KN a big reason. 

[MarcusX]

14 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think there has to be an acceptance here of risk vs reward. 
 

We’ve decided to play from the back, and generally through Kal. As a result, he sees more ball than practically everyone and plays the game as risk vs reward - if he turns the forward, we’re in - if he doesn’t we may be in trouble. 
 

I kind of accept him getting caught in possession on that basis. I’m less positive if he plays dodgy passes, but on balance I think the fact he’s been key to our way of playing is more good than bad.

Related point: Bents is doing better than most thought he would with his feet.

This.

I think there's a balance to find, but he creates so much by bringing the ball forward and times where he's turned a man or left him has completely defeated a teams press.

That pass against Blackpool was beyond belief in terms of carelessness and I think if anyone else had done it eg vyner they'd be torn to shreds. 

[Ian M]

Whilst I agree with those who say if he was Vyner he'd be torn to shreds for passes like that, that's because Vyner doesn't bring the amount of positives that Kal does to the team. (And this is said by someone who is very happy with Vyner's contribution to our team this season )

[Sheltons Army]

19 minutes ago, red colin said:

If klose or Atkinson or Bentley can't pick a 5 or 10 yd pass to Naismith just in front I'd drop all 3.its not moving all play 15 or 20 yds on and he can come and get it off them also.if he hadn't made the errors he has so far we would have at least 3 extra points which is only a few games .over a season how many points are you happy to drop unnecessarily?

It’s not as simple as that though is it

Central midfield is IMHO possible the hardest place to operate , in the middle of a 360 degree sphere of play

Receiving it in central midfield he’s going to be facing his own goal , or at best on the half turn , and far more likely to have someone breathing down his neck as he does so

He has the individual skill to cope , but his options to get his head up and thread passes likely to be more limited , and his ability to ping a long diagonal ball. 

Playing with the whole game in front of him maximises his opportunity to play a range of passes

 

I know you’ve said on numerous , numerous , occasions he should be moved , but he was acquired for a specific purpose(s)

[Bristol Oil Services]

10 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

I swear only city fans can turn a good thing into a negative

It is his second full season as a CB. His first playing in the middle of a 3 as a playmaker. We look so much better in possession now with him. Van Dijk, Dias, Thiago Silva and Sergio Ramos have all made mistakes passing the ball or spending too much time on it. Relax and enjoy us being comfortable in possession. 
 

For a converted winger, I think he is outstanding back there. Only going to get better with more minutes. His pass last night I think was a moment where he thought he could get away with it and did not. Lesson learned and we move on. 
 

We are 7th. We have had 3 straight 2-0 at home. We look a threat not only as a countering side but much better in possession and more of a set piece threat. We have had the lead in every game on top of all that. The positives are everywhere and they have been hard to find the last 3 seasons and yet we are getting threads like this. 

Nige calls this the bigger or "whole" picture. He is quoted on the BBC site saying: "Most people have gone home happy because we won, but I have to look at the whole picture."

Like @Harry was doing recently, when things are going well it's ok for some people to ask: How can we be better? It's not the end of the world. It's what Nige is doing.

Equally, when things are not going well, it's ok for people to come on here and say "there are some positives/signs of encouragement," particularly when we're only a day in to September. Some other people properly lose their shit on here when this happens, including myself once or twice. 

Some people seem to struggle with debate that goes beyond "win=everything's fine/lose=everything's shite" level of chat and I wonder why they keep returning to this place when it is pretty obvious by now what they will find here, and what various posters starting threads will predictably entail.

And also, it will be exactly the same at just about every club up and down the country. Man City could do with a defence to match their forward options, a little bit like ourselves, I shouldn't be surprised to see on their forum. Be a bit of a waste if they don't win the league with the new young kiddie they've got up front.

The definition of 'forum' goes something like: "a place where ideas and views can be exchanged" whereas too many people seem to want this place to have one narrative or simple idea ("win=good, lose=sack someone") and to come on here after a win or loss and see that one idea they have about how things are right now repeated back to them.

[GrahamC]

13 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

You must have been near me in E31, bloke was a nause, at least once a minute "FORWAAARD" or "GET UP". Nothing else, other than generally moan.

So much so, I actually looked this morning (via the ticketing site) to see if his seat was a ST seat. If it was, I was going to move mine, he isn't a ST holder (first time this season he's been there thank Christ).

 

He used to sit behind me, absolute helmet.

Last season it was “forward” or “get out” every single time we kept possession or were defending a set piece.

Same bloke also shouted at Chris Martin “run, you fat ***”, honestly Martin might well not be Weimann but he should have a go at training with him, if he reckons he’s played 12 years at Championship level without being fit enough to run for ages after this cock is repeatedly throwing up, then (as I suspect) he knows absolutely nothing.

[AshtonRobin21]

He undoubtedly improves us. 

He's been brought in to be the ball-playing defender, and at times looks very good.

In possession he has been caught out a few times, but my issue isn't necessarily with him alone. 

Sometimes the option for a pass isn't on, which is where he has been caught out. On one occasion last night he was looking to play the ball out to Atkinson who was marked, and then tried to switch the play to Vyner who was also marked. That then invited pressure. 

I think he's been a very good signing, and we are off the back of three consecutive wins and clean sheets, so would rather look at the positives. 

[red colin]

37 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

It’s not as simple as that though is it

Central midfield is IMHO possible the hardest place to operate , in the middle of a 360 degree sphere of play

Receiving it in central midfield he’s going to be facing his own goal , or at best on the half turn , and far more likely to have someone breathing down his neck as he does so

He has the individual skill to cope , but his options to get his head up and thread passes likely to be more limited , and his ability to ping a long diagonal ball. 

Playing with the whole game in front of him maximises his opportunity to play a range of passes

 

I know you’ve said on numerous , numerous , occasions he should be moved , but he was acquired for a specific purpose(s)

Do you not think he could do James job better than James?

[Port Said Red]

2 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Vyner did play a feeble back pass and only the post saved his blushes. He seemed to spend most of the game running backwards whenever Sorba Thomas was advancing with the ball.  Naismith at least isn't terrified to tackle. 

However, I do take people's point that KN always has a mistake in him and unfortunately, when you play in that position, mistakes often lead to your side conceeding. Against a better side, last night's clangers would have.

He has to learn that discretion is the better part of valour, and sometimes an agricultural hoof upfield and into touch, is better than trying to retain possession when opponents are threatening. 

This is what gets me, he defended really well in those situations and forced Thomas to go back because he ran out of options.

Players like that want defenders to dive in and either leave space behind them or give away a free kick. The best defenders rarely make tackles in those positions.

[Wellspokenman]

Overall at this level, Naismith is pretty solid, however both he and Vyner are subject to lapses of concentration. That cannot de denied.
So far, Sunderland, Blackpool and Huddersfield. 

I thought we looked too vulnerable last night down the right hand side, but I don’t think anyone really stood out. That said, Atkinson continues to impress and seems to get better deeper into the games.

 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Supersonic Robin said:

Incredible isn't it?

For years we've seen people moaning on here about the quality of football. There's been a thousand comments akin to "I wouldn't mind us being midtable if we weren't so f****** BORING! I just want to see some good football! "

Now we start playing good quality exciting football and the same fans are moaning about us "dicking about with it at the back instead of just getting it forward".

 

 

I know. Fickle bunch, bordering on weird!

1 hour ago, red colin said:

If klose or Atkinson or Bentley can't pick a 5 or 10 yd pass to Naismith just in front I'd drop all 3.its not moving all play 15 or 20 yds on and he can come and get it off them also.if he hadn't made the errors he has so far we would have at least 3 extra points which is only a few games .over a season how many points are you happy to drop unnecessarily?

See @Sheltons Armypost, saved me a response. Ta.

Dont forget the other part of playing Naismith CB3 is to allow Vyner and Atkinson to “split”, Sykes and Dasilva to play “high” because he can get them into patterns..  That breaks if you expect Klose or Atkinson to be the distribution point.

1 hour ago, Ian M said:

There was that double press in the second half that was really great viewing. First we pressed and won the ball, unfortunately (just as at Blackpool - which I believe was the reason for the equaliser!) the attempted through ball bounced off the heals of our attacker and we lost possession, only to immediately press again and win the ball back

Two chances for a counter snuffed.

 

At Blackpool we did win the ball back too but then did our unforced error to gift them the third goal. Had we not got the pass wrong/been unlucky with the ball catching the heals, we aren't even in position for Nais to put that pass to Vyner.

And who was involved in that…Matty James.

[bcfc01]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

IDont forget the other part of playing Naismith CB3 is to allow Vyner and Atkinson to “split”, Sykes and Dasilva to play “high” because he can get them into patterns..  That breaks if you expect Klose or Atkinson to be the distribution point.

 

It probably does if expecting Klose to be that player.

But Atkinson is very good with the ball at his feet and more than capable of carrying the ball out of defence. But he is nowhere near the accuracy of Naismith with the long pass or sharp short passing. But he would do a job there if Naismith was unavailable imo.

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, Port Said Red said:

This is what gets me, he defended really well in those situations and forced Thomas to go back because he ran out of options.

Players like that want defenders to dive in and either leave space behind them or give away a free kick. The best defenders rarely make tackles in those positions.

 

Actually, simply backpedalling for 20 ft and giving Thomas plenty of space wasn't good defending. He simply passed around him. 

[Port Said Red]

8 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Actually, simply backpedalling for 20 ft and giving Thomas plenty of space wasn't good defending. He simply passed around him. 

No he didn't he went backwards or had to go wide to a player that was marked.. It was good defending.

[Red-Robbo]

4 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

No he didn't he went backwards or had to go wide to a player that was marked.. It was good defending.

 

We'll agree to disagree on that, because that wasn't what I saw. I saw Rhodes being passed to and, on one occasion, Vyner simply bypassed. All this before their sub intercepted his back pass and hit the inside post in a shot that seemed to defy physics to spin around and out. 

[Sheltons Army]

1 hour ago, red colin said:

Do you not think he could do James job better than James?

No idea but I’d go with probably not

[red colin]

6 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

No idea but I’d go with probably not

Ok all opinions are valid and good that there are differences otherwise it would be boring. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Yeah Naismith may make mistakes, perhaps he needs to be a bit more discerning about when to short pass and when to play it a bit differently.

However the big thing for me is that- and I'm not talking about in-game switches for a period where he may help to form a 3 in CM, wingbacks become full backs etc, that's possible with our personnel, more that if we take him out of the back 3 and our him at CM, DM whatever as a default then we lose that dimension of being able to bring it out from the back properly and it sets us back IMO.

[WECANDO]

18 hours ago, Aaron-Bcfc said:

Cost us a point at least against Sunderland, cost us all 3 at Blackpool and then could easily have cost us all 3 tonight. On another day or against a more potent attack he would have. Generally plays well with plenty of good moments and then throws it all away with baffling decision making in the worst areas of the pitch and under little pressure.

Even after the disaster on Saturday he was keen on messing about with it again tonight which is worrying. Needs to cut it out sharpish or like others have said, patience will start wearing thin.

We drew away to Blackpool so cost us one point.