VAR in the Premier League yesterday

[BCFC101]

4 hours ago, phantom said:

Can't honestly say I have seen this enforced in many years

When I did a refereeing training course a few years back, the guidance we were given is that as long as the keeper is moving forward with the ball in their hands then that time is excluded, and the 6 second law only applies once the keeper is stationary near the edge of the box. As a result they can spend 30 seconds slowly walking from one corner of the box to the other, then stand still for 5 seconds before releasing the ball and not fall foul of the 6 second law.

[downendcity]

5 hours ago, phantom said:

Can't honestly say I have seen this enforced in many years

Just like the Wrestling bouts that take place in penalty areas week in, week out without punishment 

[Cowshed]

5 hours ago, MarcusX said:

Thanks, I can't remember ever seeing it enforced though. Every keeper takes a good 10-20 seconds or more

Enforcement and a indirect free kick as a sanction isn't the general first stage, its warning/warnings.

Enforcement and a indirect free kick as the first action does occur, but its so rare there are only a couple of obvious examples over ten years.  

[phantom]

On 06/09/2022 at 16:32, BCFC101 said:

Champions League is introducing semi-automated offsides in every game starting tonight, which will eliminate the manual task of drawing lines etc. and should therefore make it perfectly consistent across all games. The tech has been developed by HawkEye so I have high hopes that it will work as it's intended to, will be interesting to see what impact it does have. Prem have already said they'll look to introduce the system next year if it goes well in the CL and World Cup later this year.

 

On 07/09/2022 at 00:02, MarcusX said:

Yep interested to see how this works

My new found optimism has been shattered already lol

This is the goal that wasn’t given by the Semiautomatic offside technology. Schick was offside by the tip of his toenail. Yes, that bit in black. 

Imagine this happens in the World Cup final. Ridiculous. This isn’t what technology is for. They’re ruining football.

 

[Red_Alligator]

Methinks the people at Stockley Park need a trip to Specsavers. 

[Curr Avon]

David Squires take on VAR (published on Tuesday in the Guardian) is superb as ever...

David Squires on … the great VAR and refereeing crisis of 2022 | Football | The Guardian

[Cowshed]

On 08/09/2022 at 17:12, Curr Avon said:

David Squires take on VAR (published on Tuesday in the Guardian) is superb as ever...

David Squires on … the great VAR and refereeing crisis of 2022 | Football | The Guardian

 

 

Or be the Bristol ref who had to call the police to get out of a car park after a U12 game due to parents surrounding his car. This is not exceptional. Threats and abuse of refs including children has become nomal.

We have junior leagues in Bristol that have ran out of refereees. Entire divisions can have NO refs. A precipice has been passed where the game loses far more refs than it recruits. 7000 refs give up a season. In ten years time?

The round the clock focus on refs and poor performance (which data does not support) is misplaced and damaging the game. 

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Cowshed

[And Its Smith]

9 hours ago, Cowshed said:

 

 

Or be the Bristol ref who had to call the police to get out of a car park after a U12 game due to parents surrounding his car. This is not exceptional. Threats and abuse of refs including children has become nomal.

We have junior leagues in Bristol that have ran out of refereees. Entire divisions can have NO refs. A precipice has been passed where the game loses far more refs than it recruits. 7000 refs give up a season. In ten years time?

The round the clock focus on refs and poor performance (which data does not support) is misplaced and damaging the game. 

 

If a group of men are surrounding the car of a ref for an under 12s game (or any age group) then I’d suggest they have huge emotional issues and are likely to have been violent in the past. Their kids and/or partner probably live in fear. 

[MarcusX]

19 hours ago, Cowshed said:

 

 

Or be the Bristol ref who had to call the police to get out of a car park after a U12 game due to parents surrounding his car. This is not exceptional. Threats and abuse of refs including children has become nomal.

We have junior leagues in Bristol that have ran out of refereees. Entire divisions can have NO refs. A precipice has been passed where the game loses far more refs than it recruits. 7000 refs give up a season. In ten years time?

The round the clock focus on refs and poor performance (which data does not support) is misplaced and damaging the game. 

 

I hadn't realised how bad it was until I took over management this year and get the allocation emails. Most weeks our reserves side don't have a ref allocated and we have to scrounge around to find someone or ref it ourselves

[MarcusX]

On 08/09/2022 at 16:52, phantom said:

 

My new found optimism has been shattered already :laugh:

This is the goal that wasn’t given by the Semiautomatic offside technology. Schick was offside by the tip of his toenail. Yes, that bit in black. 

Imagine this happens in the World Cup final. Ridiculous. This isn’t what technology is for. They’re ruining football.

 

I guess the problem is the rule though, all the tech is doing is policing it down to the very minute degree. If anything it's impressive how well the tech's worked there

It might be easier with tech to incorporate a margin of error to give benefit of the doubt

[Cowshed]

12 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

If a group of men are surrounding the car of a ref for an under 12s game (or any age group) then I’d suggest they have huge emotional issues and are likely to have been violent in the past. Their kids and/or partner probably live in fear. 

No ifs. Referees being abused, threatened and intimidated by spectators, parents and Mangers at grass roots level is common.

The culture of abuse and disrespect can be seen on TV, it’s been normalised. I would suggest that the anchoring in of poor behaviour into the game should be challenged and measures put in place to diminish the disrespect towards officialdom, instead of forensic focus being placed on honest humans who have worked hard to be where they who will make occasional errors

2 hours ago, MarcusX said:

I hadn't realised how bad it was until I took over management this year and get the allocation emails. Most weeks our reserves side don't have a ref allocated and we have to scrounge around to find someone or ref it ourselves

I see the allocations at varying levels. I see teams wiith no ref for a month, then for a game followed by no ref again for six weeks in junior football.

Leagues (junior) are now going down the route of abuse the ref lose the ref. Poor behaved teams don't get the refs the game already hasn't got, and this penalises obviously teams that behave themselves.

Remedies for numbers has to be pay refs more. Thats not a remedy for how refs are treated, its superficial, you will be paid more because you are going to be treated abysmally on occasions. Control has to start at the top. 

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Cowshed

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, MarcusX said:

I guess the problem is the rule though, all the tech is doing is policing it down to the very minute degree. If anything it's impressive how well the tech's worked there

It might be easier with tech to incorporate a margin of error to give benefit of the doubt

The tech isn’t good enough.  That’s not meant to be a criticism, just a fact.  The camera frame-rate is not not good enough to pick the exact moment to ball is passed.  A frame either way can lead to circa 12 inches wrong either way.

That should’ve been factored in, and as you say some form of allowance built in….a similar concept to umpires call in cricket (which cricket evolved over time).  We accept a ball clipping the bails from a video reconstruction might be a fraction out from the true ball flight and then go with the original decision.  We don’t slag the umpire off, we accept that it was too marginal to be 100% right.

Interesting that in that Stokes inning v Australia (with Leach), there were a lot of claims that as Australia had stupidly reviewed an lbw they missed out on one from Lyon’s, which the technology showed to be hitting the stumps. However it was shown a few days later than the operator who decides where the first contact was had missed it flicking the first pad and he got the tech to work out the ball trajectory from the second contact.  When they ran it again (those few days later) it proved it was missing leg stump anyway.  But I hadn’t appreciated there was a human deciding first contact point.

[Davefevs]

Just now, Cowshed said:

No ifs. Referees being abused, threatened and intimidated by spectators, parents and Mangers aat grass roots level is common.

The culture of abuse and disrespect can be seen on TV, it’s been normalised. I would suggest that the anchoring in of poor behaviour into the game should be challenged and measures put in place to diminish the disrespect towards officialdom, instead of forensic focus being placed on honest humans who have worked hard to be where they who will make occasional errors

I see the allocations at varying levels. I see teams wiith no ref for a month, the one week followed by no for six weeks in junior football.

Leagues (junior) are now going down the route of abuse the ref lose the ref. Poor behaved teams don't get the refs the game already hasn't got, and this penalises obviously teams that behave themselves.

 Remedies for numbers has to be pay refs more. Thats not a remedy for how refs are treated, its superficial, you will be paid more because you are going to be treated abysmally on occasions. Control has to start at the top. 

 

The old Sunday side I used to play in with @BS4 on Tour...were far too nice a team to give refs any shit.  So we’d get the really old guy Hector Cornelius (anyone remember him?) most home games. He’d turn up 10 mins before k/o smoking a thin cigar, head out to the centre circle, do the coin toss, and would only move out of the centre circle at h-t (to have another smoke) or for a penalty, which he rarely gave as he was too far away to see it anyway.

Happy days!

[And Its Smith]

46 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

No ifs. Referees being abused, threatened and intimidated by spectators, parents and Mangers at grass roots level is common.

The culture of abuse and disrespect can be seen on TV, it’s been normalised. I would suggest that the anchoring in of poor behaviour into the game should be challenged and measures put in place to diminish the disrespect towards officialdom, instead of forensic focus being placed on honest humans who have worked hard to be where they who will make occasional errors

I see the allocations at varying levels. I see teams wiith no ref for a month, then for a game followed by no ref again for six weeks in junior football.

Leagues (junior) are now going down the route of abuse the ref lose the ref. Poor behaved teams don't get the refs the game already hasn't got, and this penalises obviously teams that behave themselves.

Remedies for numbers has to be pay refs more. Thats not a remedy for how refs are treated, its superficial, you will be paid more because you are going to be treated abysmally on occasions. Control has to start at the top. 

 

My use of the word ‘if’ was not used to cast doubt. I very much believe it happened.  My son had his first game of the season last weekend and it was depressing to be back running the line for his team.  We’ve just come off the back of a delightful cricket season where we had one incident of dissent in about 18 matches.  First football match,  the 16 year old referee gets a ton of flack for a decision that he got correct as it happened 6 yards in front of me! The dads of the opposition had an awful angle of it but it didn’t stop the abuse.  And regardless of if it was the correct decision or not it shouldn’t happen.  I then speak up and tell them to mind their tone and language and then I’m in the firing line! 

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

The old Sunday side I used to play in with @BS4 on Tour...were far too nice a team to give refs any shit.  So we’d get the really old guy Hector Cornelius (anyone remember him?) most home games. He’d turn up 10 mins before k/o smoking a thin cigar, head out to the centre circle, do the coin toss, and would only move out of the centre circle at h-t (to have another smoke) or for a penalty, which he rarely gave as he was too far away to see it anyway.

Happy days!

Why does the EFL keep giving him City games to referee? 

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

My use of the word ‘if’ was not used to cast doubt. I very much believe it happened.  My son had his first game of the season last weekend and it was depressing to be back running the line for his team.  We’ve just come off the back of a delightful cricket season where we had one incident of dissent in about 18 matches.  First football match,  the 16 year old referee gets a ton of flack for a decision that he got correct as it happened 6 yards in front of me! The dads of the opposition had an awful angle of it but it didn’t stop the abuse.  And regardless of if it was the correct decision or not it shouldn’t happen.  I then speak up and tell them to mind their tone and language and then I’m in the firing line! 

This is what I mean about abuse of refs being normalised. The if is not an if, its a when for refs including minors. That is a certainty. The intense focus on refs and its consequences is not viewed as a problem, the refs are the problem. Its a skewed compass. 

VAR as I predicted has by its nature of highlighting error does not foster respect for officials. An improvement would be to turn the acute reflection on to Managers, players, and their behaviours. 

[MarcusX]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The tech isn’t good enough.  That’s not meant to be a criticism, just a fact.  The camera frame-rate is not not good enough to pick the exact moment to ball is passed.  A frame either way can lead to circa 12 inches wrong either way.

That should’ve been factored in, and as you say some form of allowance built in….a similar concept to umpires call in cricket (which cricket evolved over time).  We accept a ball clipping the bails from a video reconstruction might be a fraction out from the true ball flight and then go with the original decision.  We don’t slag the umpire off, we accept that it was too marginal to be 100% right.

Interesting that in that Stokes inning v Australia (with Leach), there were a lot of claims that as Australia had stupidly reviewed an lbw they missed out on one from Lyon’s, which the technology showed to be hitting the stumps. However it was shown a few days later than the operator who decides where the first contact was had missed it flicking the first pad and he got the tech to work out the ball trajectory from the second contact.  When they ran it again (those few days later) it proved it was missing leg stump anyway.  But I hadn’t appreciated there was a human deciding first contact point.

This is completely off the top of my head so happy to be wrong but I was sure this was a criticism when VAR first came in and it was debunked or there was an allowance for the frame rate issue?

I think the gist of the debunking was VAR uses much higher spec cameras than the image broadcast on Sky (which is what people were basing this error on)

[downendcity]