Tactics of Increasing the Number of Strikers

[And Its Smith]

An go-to tactic of Nige is to increase the number of strikers on the pitch. It usually involves bringing Martin on and the game plan changes. More long balls, more chaos, less shape.  I assume they practise this in training but I wouldn’t say the evidence of that practise is making it onto the pitch.

Looking at the last 23 games, half a season, he has used this tactic 9 times from what I can see.  Totallying 214 minutes and scoring 3 goals. Two of these goals came against Blackpool.  So it has had a positive affect on two out of 9 occasions and resulted in a goal every 71 minutes. Without the Blackpool game I make it 1 goal in 184 minutes.  Obviously taking out the most successful game of it is going to skew the numbers but I believe it’s worth mentioning.  I think playing our normal way we score a goal more frequently than that…every 50 odd minutes. 
 

Someone else may well dispute these numbers which is fair enough, I’ve spent 10 minutes on it and will bow to others who disagree if they can show workings!  
 

I think though that we can all agree it isn’t working.  Is this a tactic that he will keep using do we think? I would love a journalist to ask him about it…..albeit they might get their head bitten off! 

[BUTOR]

I agree. Just as we were finding rhythm and confidence again in the game we go  for the shapeless gung ho. I can understand the last 10 minutes but at 60 when we’re finding our way back into the game I believe it to be poor management. 

[Daniro]

I think we looked less likely to score after the substitutions and they had much more of the ball in the last 15 minutes.   Their game management was spot on unfortunately for us so we couldn't get going.   

None of the forwards looked threatening today so not sure what Nige could have done but tactically it didn't feel right and you make a good point.

[North of the River]

Excellent post. Just got home with three pints of Bob on board. I don't normally comment on the forum but this tactic ? Really annoyed me today. Putting on a 33 year striker whose legs have gone and positioning one of the most powerfull players in the championship Ie Semmenyo on the right wing was just madness. Also Aitkinson is really good bringing the ball forward and is a threat at set pieces. I like Pearson but I just don't understand what he's doing at times.

 

[eardun]

I was also surprised that we changed shape so soon after we scored. I felt we were starting to get on top at that point and saw us equalising. We didn’t look as dangerous afterwards. After the change, the wingbacks had more defensive fullback duties (not their strength) and Wells had to go more left side (away from the middle). Personally I would have seen how Semenyo and Wells did as a front two, kept the three at the back, and if you’re going to bring Wilson on, he needs to play RWB. 

[Mad Cyril]

We were getting it up the bum. Would rather we rolled the dice and mess them up and cause confusion and chaos.

Just a shame it did that to us instead on this occasion.

[Harry]

This was pretty much the main point I was making on my ‘odd decisions’ thread. 
I found the sub and shape change after the goal incredibly baffling. 
Not the first time I’ve been left wondering what Pearson was thinking??

 

[Robbored]

34 minutes ago, Harry said:

This was pretty much the main point I was making on my ‘odd decisions’ thread. 
I found the sub and shape change after the goal incredibly baffling. 
Not the first time I’ve been left wondering what Pearson was thinking??

 

Nige is a very experienced manger and a very decent CB in his playing career and it amuses me  that amateurs like the majority of us fans question the decisions made by a guy with all the FA coaching badges available when few if any of us have any coaching badges whatsoever - all because they don’t understand what the rationale was behind various managerial decisions.

I’m happy to admit that I didn’t fully understand what Nige’s thinking was but am quite willing to accept that he, like almost all managers know more about the variables within the game than I do. Just because I/we didn’t see his reasoning doesn’t mean that he was wrong.

[And Its Smith]

12 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Nige is a very experienced manger and a very decent CB in his playing career and it amuses me  that amateurs like the majority of us fans question the decisions made by a guy with all the FA coaching badges available when few if any of us have any coaching badges whatsoever - all because they don’t understand what the rationale was behind various managerial decisions.

I’m happy to admit that I didn’t fully understand what Nige’s thinking was but am quite willing to accept that he, like almost all managers know more about the variables within the game than I do. Just because I/we didn’t see his reasoning doesn’t mean that he was wrong.

Which managers do you know more than if ‘almost all’ managers know more than you ?

[Harry]

54 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Nige is a very experienced manger and a very decent CB in his playing career and it amuses me  that amateurs like the majority of us fans question the decisions made by a guy with all the FA coaching badges available when few if any of us have any coaching badges whatsoever - all because they don’t understand what the rationale was behind various managerial decisions.

I’m happy to admit that I didn’t fully understand what Nige’s thinking was but am quite willing to accept that he, like almost all managers know more about the variables within the game than I do. Just because I/we didn’t see his reasoning doesn’t mean that he was wrong.

Aah, the old “he’s a pro, you’re an amateur” excuse. Poor response Robbo. And ever so dull. 
By the way, I wonder if you’ve ever questioned a manager??………….

I think we all know the answer to that 

[Robbored]

7 hours ago, Harry said:

Aah, the old “he’s a pro, you’re an amateur” excuse. Poor response Robbo. And ever so dull. 
By the way, I wonder if you’ve ever questioned a manager??………….

I think we all know the answer to that 

Of course I have, just as fans have at every football club do but managers are qualified professionals who should know what they’re doing.

Like most posters I didn’t quite understand the substitutions that Nige made yesterday but I’m not qualified to say he made the wrong call. 
 

[Bris Red]

8 hours ago, Robbored said:

Nige is a very experienced manger and a very decent CB in his playing career and it amuses me  that amateurs like the majority of us fans question the decisions made by a guy with all the FA coaching badges available when few if any of us have any coaching badges whatsoever - all because they don’t understand what the rationale was behind various managerial decisions.

I’m happy to admit that I didn’t fully understand what Nige’s thinking was but am quite willing to accept that he, like almost all managers know more about the variables within the game than I do. Just because I/we didn’t see his reasoning doesn’t mean that he was wrong.

And i will flip that again and say just because Nige has coaching badges and said experience doesn’t automatically mean every decision he makes is correct.

Football is a simple game, it’s not rocket science or open heart surgery that we are talking about.

[And Its Smith]

8 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

Which managers do you know more than if ‘almost all’ managers know more than you ?

You’ve left a confused emoji face to this @Robboredwhich I am confused about as I am just asking you to clarify which managers you know better than

Edited October 2, 2022 by And Its Smith

[Super]

I thought we were past the days of lumping it up to Martin.

[AshtonRobin21]

I've mentioned it previously, but the correct way to use Martin is to protect a lead. 

Not being him on and revert to long ball when chasing a game. 

Semenyo and Wells looked to be putting QPR under pressure early on in the second half. Semenyo was having some luck by picking the ball up and driving at the defence. 

Martin was brought on, and both Semenyo and Wells were then pushed out wide. It nullified all of our threat. 

I would also question why a natural wing back, who has been waiting for an opportunity, gets subbed on and pushed back into a right back role. 

[Robbored]

59 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

You’ve left a confused emoji face to this @Robboredwhich I am confused about as I am just asking you to clarify which managers you know better than

Very few, if any posters have greater knowledge of the game than qualified professional football managers, that includes me.

Lots of posters like to think that they know better and question managerial decisions - without the latest inside information of course - but in reality they have no say in decision making so why not try to understand why the manager made those decisions?        
Thats what I do but freely admit that I couldn’t see Nige’s reasoning behind the changes he made yesterday.

[2015]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

Of course I have, just as fans have at every football club do but managers are qualified professionals who should know what they’re doing.

Like most posters I didn’t quite understand the substitutions that Nige made yesterday but I’m not qualified to say he made the wrong call. 
 

Well he did, and we lost. Just because you like a person does not omit them from any form of criticism

[spudski]

10 hours ago, Robbored said:

Nige is a very experienced manger and a very decent CB in his playing career and it amuses me  that amateurs like the majority of us fans question the decisions made by a guy with all the FA coaching badges available when few if any of us have any coaching badges whatsoever - all because they don’t understand what the rationale was behind various managerial decisions.

I’m happy to admit that I didn’t fully understand what Nige’s thinking was but am quite willing to accept that he, like almost all managers know more about the variables within the game than I do. Just because I/we didn’t see his reasoning doesn’t mean that he was wrong.

You don't have to have coaching badges to understand the rational behind NP's Substitutions.

We as fans aren't privvy to his reasons...but if we did know them, then there are plenty of 'fans' who know enough about the game who could argue proficiently as to why the decisions could or couldn't work.

For example...if you are a football scout...you don't need official qualifications to be taken seriously. If you can show your knowledge people will take you seriously. 

Many fans have played football to a decent level...you don't need coaching badges to validate your football opinion.

Many managers and coaches with your official badges will disagree with one another. All think they know the best way to go about something.

If you think your football intelligence isn't knowledgeable enough to understand, or you aren't able to debate to the pros and cons of decisions in a game in a 'Coaching style manner'...then fine...but don't tar everyone with your brush.

There are plenty of people that are fans, but also study the game. That have more than a 'basic' knowledge, and would be able to sit down with a ' qualified' coach and hold there own when discussing tactics etc etc. 

To underline my point...we just aren't privy to his reasoning. Other than that...people can discuss whether his decisions worked or not. 

There are plenty of people on this forum that have good football knowledge. Some who coach, some who scout, some who study the game and others in other aspects of the game.

If you were the last kid picked to play at school, never played for a team at any level, never followed the game and just turned up to watch on a Saturday and get pissed and have a jolly...then you may have a point

[Robbored]

6 minutes ago, spudski said:

There are plenty of people on this forum that have good football knowledge. Some who coach, some who scout, some who study the game and others in other aspects of the game.

I have a decent level of medical knowledge studied throughout my career but that knowledge and experience don’t make me an expert. I still bow to the knowledge of a fully qualified MD and I rarely, if ever question their opinion.

I’d argue that the same analogy can apply to this debate.
 

 

[spudski]

27 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I have a decent level of medical knowledge studied throughout my career but that knowledge and experience don’t make me an expert. I still bow to the knowledge of a fully qualified MD and I rarely, if ever question their opinion.

I’d argue that the same analogy can apply to this debate.
 

 

So why would a coach or manager listen to say a scout or analyst that has no coaching badges, but bags of football knowledge based on years of playing,  watching and studying the game? Most are fans that have a deeper interest. Some at 'amateur' level others that get into the business full time.

The same with pundits on TV...most of them aren't qualified coaches, but talk knowledgeably about the game and can reason.

Does say a player at the level of Yate Town who's a fan of the Club, have no knowledge worth listening to? Not qualified in coaching, but good enough to understand the coaching, understand if it's working or not, can question managers ideas etc. Good enough to play alongside academy players etc etc. There are many football fans like that. So their views aren't worth listening too?

I don't understand the logic in your reasoning regarding being an expert.

If you've studied and have knowledge in a subject, have experience, then why not question someone higher up?

How do you advance knowledge if you don't constantly question the ' expert'.

Everything would stand still if you don't question.

Look at Science and how it gets blocked from advancing because of peer reviewed papers...an idea is only taken seriously if it's peer reviewed...everyone agreeing because they fail to look beyond the confines box they've been put in.

Advancements often come from the fringe...where someone thinks differently, yet may not be qualified to do so. So is ignored.

A great analogy is all the Candlestick makers are looking to improve the candle and how it works, focussing on that...yet none of them would have thought of the light bulb. 

As another example...I've been qualified in a professional sport and coached professionally. During my coaching qualifications I questioned my Course manager/coach. He had the highest qualifications and many years of experience. I was so adamant what he was saying was wrong ( it was a technical issue) that we ended up having a heated debate. He pulled me up in front of the other ' students' and told them I was wrong.

Later that evening we sat down with a beer... me, him and his superior. We went through it and his superior agreed with me and what I proved and explained was correct.

Next day...he apologised in front of the group and we explained technically why I was right.

If I hadn't of questioned it...and just excepted he was right...we would have all failed our course.

So with my amount of knowledge...although less than his vast knowledge and experience...I could still make a decision and believe my view was correct. 

Hence why new managers and Coaches come along with less experience and knowledge than those that have been in the game decades...and take over. Because they've questioned and found new ways. 

 

 

[IAmNick]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

I have a decent level of medical knowledge studied throughout my career but that knowledge and experience don’t make me an expert. I still bow to the knowledge of a fully qualified MD and I rarely, if ever question their opinion.

I’d argue that the same analogy can apply to this debate.
 

 

I think that's different though, as we know the outcome of the decisions here. It may be harder for a novice to understand them at the time, but now we know what happened it's a lot easier to work backwards and use that knowledge to understand why some things do or don't work.

If your MD was repeatedly making incorrect diagnoses of the same thing, and you recognised this, when they got to the next one you might mention it. Same concept here.

Edited October 2, 2022 by IAmNick

[Champfan45]

Every manager likes to tinker around and try new ideas, and it's never going to work every single time. I don't like to second guess tactical decisions unless the manager persists with an idea that isn't working for an extended period of time. Many of them are stubborn and think too highly of themselves, with the attitude that it's the players fault for not executing the plan well enough. I'm not sure whether that applies to NP but we'll find out soon enough. I'm hoping that once Semenyo starts we will see less of Martin and fewer long balls over the top. 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Champfan45

[Mr Popodopolous]

I've never been a fan of throw strikers on and go 4 up top, properly late on in  game or in a season desperation kicks in sure but I'd rather build a bit, build on the goal and up some pressure that way, at stage of a game anyway.

As a side chasing you can fall into certain traps easily. Hitting it long is one, losing your rhythm and shape, 4 strikers crowding each other out..feels one too many.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Sleepy1968]

10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I've never been a fan of throw strikers on and go 4 up top, properly late on in  game or in a season desperation kicks in sure but I'd rather build a bit, build on the goal and up some pressure that way, at stage of a game anyway.

As a side chasing you can fall into certain traps easily. Hitting it long is one, losing your rhythm and shape, 4 strikers crowding each other out..feels one too many.

If it ever worked I'd be all for it, but it doesn't. Last 5 minutes? Okay fair enough. Before that it just smacks of desperation and 'we've got no real plan'.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Sleepy1968 said:

If it ever worked I'd be all for it, but it doesn't. Last 5 minutes? Okay fair enough. Before that it just smacks of desperation and 'we've got no real plan'.

You've put it better than me! Bottom line it doesn't usually work, IMO. Agreed.