45 crosses

[The Bard]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

I can. 
Sykes. 

Close run thing. 

There's a great quote from David Lacey an old football journalist, that Bobby Robson had the look of a man who'd just realised that he'd left the oven on.

Sykes reacts to about half his 'situations' like that. As if there were no indication it was going to happen.  Life is an endless stream of surprises. 

[big dosser]

one thing with crosses is we always seem to take a touch then cross, cant understand why we seem to lack confidence putting the ball in first time, makes it so much harder for a defender as you can whip it in-between the defence and the keeper

[Harry]

59 minutes ago, big dosser said:

one thing with crosses is we always seem to take a touch then cross, cant understand why we seem to lack confidence putting the ball in first time, makes it so much harder for a defender as you can whip it in-between the defence and the keeper

Said the same to my mate next to me last night. 
It seems the ‘first time cross’ is a thing of the past. Not many seem to do it these days. 

[Numero Uno]

7 hours ago, DirtySanchez said:

Think we missed a trick by not getting Martin involved with the amount of crosses going into the box. Of all those crosses, I think we got on the end of 2-3 maximum. But the quality of the crosses was quite poor and no one really attacking the ball. Onwards and upwards.

45 crosses and I would bet the house that Martin gets on the end of at least 2-3 of them. Like I said previously had he been on the pitch when Vyner put in a peach of a delivery he wins us the game. If the opposition tactic is to let you have it out wide and put in that many crosses then you need Martin and Conway up front, our two best attackers of crosses.

[Northern Red]

1 hour ago, Ghost Rider said:

First game we haven't scored isn't it? 

You'd never know it, would you?

[IAmNick]

Here are Skyes and Dasilvas forward cross positions from last night:

and their backwards (so cut backs) ones:

So I think they did try a bit of both - I'd have liked to see a few more cut backs personally but they did happen. I think it was the quality that was the main issue - we were too ponderous getting to those positions, which let Coventry set up and pack the box which is not one of our strengths to play into.

[Lew-T]

5 hours ago, Harry said:

Interestingly, I was walking back across the park last night infront of some Cov fans and heard them saying how they though JD looked really good. They also thought Massengo had a good game! 
I was with my daughter so couldn’t be arsed to get into the conversation with them and inform that, despite JD apparently “looking good” to them, they probably failed to notice that he delivered the square root of eff all on the six hundred and fifty nine excellent crossing positions he got into. 
 

Same goes for Sykes. I’ve been quite surprised that he hasn’t come under fire prior to now. I’ve seen quite a few posters / Twitter comments etc saying how impressed they’ve been by him. I can’t help but laugh my gonads into my throat when I see this!  He’s been dreadful. Again, work rate, yes. Happy with that. He manages to get himself into some very good attacking positions. But 9 out of 10 times he completely effs up the final ball/cross. His effort has been good, but his quality, composure and intelligence has been severely lacking. Not just last night, but all season. 
 

On a wider point, re the crosses. I think the loss of Conway severely hampered our game. We looked so static and seemed to be plodding. I don’t think I saw a single 3rd man run last night. It was all very slow and ponderous. As soon as Conway came on, we had energy and desire up front, and the melee on the half way line was due to Conway working back and closing down their midfield. I can’t actually believe that a total rookie is so integral to our success already. 
 

Last night the quality was severely lacking. The crossing and final balls were awful (but I’ve come to expect that from Dasilva and Sykes anyway), but it was more the lack of movement that was worrying. There were no passages of play that you’d expect us to have trained, for example, one time Sykes had the ball wide, half way into their half. He played a ball inside to Williams. Any team that was being well-coached would have had a midfield runner breaking in between the full back and centre back, a third man runner, looking for the first time through ball as soon as Sykes lays it back to Williams. Or one of the strikers bending a run behind to give the midfielder an immediate passing option. 
We had none of that last night, and in the one example given, all it meant was that Williams received the pass, had nothing on, so had to turn and go back to Vyner. 
 

Yes. The crossing was awful last night. It is every week from those 2.  But my worry was the lack of any play developing elsewhere, which meant we ended up playing it to the wing backs every time. 
 

As for the wider ‘crossing’ debate. Yes, when crossing from wide it’s a low success ratio. This is why good teams are coached to ‘upgrade the cross’. 
A cross from wide is a low percentage chance. If you develop play so that the wide player manages to play a cute ball inside into the box, to an on running midfielder, then you’ve upgraded the cross to a better position. Best example I use for this is the Leeds team that got promoted a couple of years ago. The majority of their goals came from cut-backs from the byline, from inside the 18. The defence was turned and there was always on oncoming midfielder to receive the cut back near the penalty spot. They got their wide players onto the ball but played an extra pass into the box before the cut back cross. They upgraded their crosses to one which had a much higher percentage of success. 
We don’t have any movement from midfield so always end up just swinging in pointless crosses from wide areas which invariably hit the first man or sail yards over everyone. 
We need to learn to upgrade the cross (or at least try Pring and Wilson in the wingback areas who have both been proven to be able to deliver more accurate crosses). 

Think you’re being a little harsh on Sykes to be fair. He’s been very good up until the QPR game.

Blackburn away he was excellent.

[Simon bristol]

9 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

Think you’re being a little harsh on Sykes to be fair. He’s been very good up until the QPR game.

Blackburn away he was excellent.

Sykes has probably exceeded all our expectations, i got the feeling last night he was running through treacle,, he needs to come out for a game or 2

[marcofisher]

As average as JD’s crossing is, if nobody is running between the lines when he has it in an attacking position then what else is he supposed to do? It’s not his game 

[Lew-T]

57 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

Sykes has probably exceeded all our expectations, i got the feeling last night he was running through treacle,, he needs to come out for a game or 2

Yep, maybe a rest would do him good. But to say he’s been poor all season is harsh IMO.

[Harry]

2 hours ago, Lew-T said:

Think you’re being a little harsh on Sykes to be fair. He’s been very good up until the QPR game.

Blackburn away he was excellent.

Nah. He’s worked hard so people tend to like that and let it cloud judgement. His actual quality when in great positions has been poor all season. 

[Harry]

5 hours ago, IAmNick said:

Here are Skyes and Dasilvas forward cross positions from last night:

and their backwards (so cut backs) ones:

So I think they did try a bit of both - I'd have liked to see a few more cut backs personally but they did happen. I think it was the quality that was the main issue - we were too ponderous getting to those positions, which let Coventry set up and pack the box which is not one of our strengths to play into.

It’s not the cut backs in your diagram that I was getting at in my previous post. Aside from 1 of them, in the lower picture, the one in the box near the 6 yard box. 
Those are the ‘upgraded crosses’ that I was referring to, which Leeds were brilliant at when they went up. 
By making that extra pass into the box, and then cutting it back from between the 6 and the 18, hugely improves the chances of success. 
So looking at those charts, we only managed 1 of these ‘upgrades’ in the 45 crosses made!!  Not good. 

[Davefevs]

Our open play crosses last night.  41 in total.

I don’t think our execution was very good last night, that’s the main point.  But sometimes a forwards movement can make a cross too.

I can’t recall every cross last night, not after a few pints of Thatchers tonight, but Wells to Semenyo (shot saved) was decent.  As was Williams for Conway header.  As was Dasilva to Weimann for a mistimed header too.  Think Vyner hit a good one too that got deflected to safety.  Semenyo flashed one just ahead of Massengo  / but behind Wells.  There were so crap crosses but there were some good ones too.

It wasn’t all bad last night…but it wasn’t great either…which kinda summed up the game.

 

[DaveInSA]

19 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

How do you square this with Scott getting 5 bookings in 11 League games? Thought Williams has a bit of bite or has in the past- picked up 4 already no? Sorry just checked and it says 5.

Perhaps it's low for midfield, haven't checked comparable stats but it doesn't exactly align.

let me clarify for you.

for me, number of bookings doesn't equal how lightweight a midfield is. I can foul the opposition all day long, but it doesn't mean I am effective.

Powder puff means - easy to play through, lack of positional awareness in defending and lack of commitment to the defensve cause. It's 30-70% of a midflieders job to defend. to track runners. to make life difficult for the opposition. our midfield is weak at this. we're too easy to play through. Scott shirks his duties in the defensive half of the pitch, so does Sykes. That's 40% of your midfield not defending. against QPR this was our undoing.

Ligthweight means - lack of depth as well as most of our players being below average height. We need to make up for this with guile (speed of passing and speed of feet) and shithousery. both of which we can improve.

[spudski]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Our open play crosses last night.  41 in total.

I don’t think our execution was very good last night, that’s the main point.  But sometimes a forwards movement can make a cross too.

I can’t recall every cross last night, not after a few pints of Thatchers tonight, but Wells to Semenyo (shot saved) was decent.  As was Williams for Conway header.  As was Dasilva to Weimann for a mistimed header too.  Think Vyner hit a good one too that got deflected to safety.  Semenyo flashed one just ahead of Massengo  / but behind Wells.  There were so crap crosses but there were some good ones too.

It wasn’t all bad last night…but it wasn’t great either…which kinda summed up the game.

 

As you can tell from my previous posts on threads Dave...I'm not a fan of crossing, just for the sake of getting the ball into the box. A cross is only worthwhile if it's treated like a pass. 

From that graph...only 12 crosses from 41 found another City player. Sadly these stats never show what happened to the ball afterwards. 

However that percentage of finding another red is very low. When you look at a players pass completion percentage, and compare it with that cross completion percentage, it's miles apart.

Why caress and look after the ball in build up play, being careful not to lose possession, to then just cross it into an area in the box, hoping one of our players is going to find it?

The odds show that the defenders and GK will win the ball back the majority of the time. It's pure lottery. When you look at the stats and with our eyes...it's a pointless exercise.

All the care and attention to detail in how we set up and play...just left to lottery with the end ball. It's ridiculous when you think about it.

You may as well set up and play like Wimbledon used to...fill the box and just bang it in from any old position on the pitch, hoping you'll win it or win the second ball.

It's lottery football. Left to chance 

Unless it's an actual pass to your man in the box, it's nothing more than a hopeful punt into an area where you hope you might win the ball.

It's an old fashioned idea of getting the ball into a danger area. 

It's not worth jack unless it's a quality ball to your player...not an area.

Cross passes are great if attacking and the defenders are running back towards their goal...often on a counter.

But to play like we did... pedestrian...allowing the defence to be organised with their backs to goal...then just punt it into the box in hope...it will never work long term. Stats and eyes show us that the majority of the time you lose the ball and possession.

It's maddening, especially when so much care and attention is made into the build up play.

Hopefully this is a one off.

Just my view on it

 

 

[And Its Smith]

https://www.90min.com/posts/david-moyes-man-utd-81-crosses-v-fulham/amp
 

still got some way to go to beat 81 crosses from Moyes’ united 

[Fuber]

For all that I rate JD, his crossing has never been convincing, and even when it beats the first man, doesn't the second.

Personally think Pring has better delivery and pace, but Jay better for interplay.

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, spudski said:

As you can tell from my previous posts on threads Dave...I'm not a fan of crossing, just for the sake of getting the ball into the box. A cross is only worthwhile if it's treated like a pass. 

From that graph...only 12 crosses from 41 found another City player. Sadly these stats never show what happened to the ball afterwards. 

However that percentage of finding another red is very low. When you look at a players pass completion percentage, and compare it with that cross completion percentage, it's miles apart.

Why caress and look after the ball in build up play, being careful not to lose possession, to then just cross it into an area in the box, hoping one of our players is going to find it?

The odds show that the defenders and GK will win the ball back the majority of the time. It's pure lottery. When you look at the stats and with our eyes...it's a pointless exercise.

All the care and attention to detail in how we set up and play...just left to lottery with the end ball. It's ridiculous when you think about it.

You may as well set up and play like Wimbledon used to...fill the box and just bang it in from any old position on the pitch, hoping you'll win it or win the second ball.

It's lottery football. Left to chance 

Unless it's an actual pass to your man in the box, it's nothing more than a hopeful punt into an area where you hope you might win the ball.

It's an old fashioned idea of getting the ball into a danger area. 

It's not worth jack unless it's a quality ball to your player...not an area.

Cross passes are great if attacking and the defenders are running back towards their goal...often on a counter.

But to play like we did... pedestrian...allowing the defence to be organised with their backs to goal...then just punt it into the box in hope...it will never work long term. Stats and eyes show us that the majority of the time you lose the ball and possession.

It's maddening, especially when so much care and attention is made into the build up play.

Hopefully this is a one off.

Just my view on it

 

 

Couldn’t agree more.  Why pick an area when you could try to pick out a player?  Obviously depends how much time you have, but yes - “care” is exactly the word.

In the main we’ve been pretty efficient with our attacks this season.

 

Heres some other stuff…just for info.

FWIW here’s our crossing stats for every league game this season.  Sorry it’s a bit small.

At a very high level, the previous season(s) moan about opposition crosses has reversed in trend, we are allowing our opponents significantly less crosses than we are allowing.  Last season we were allowing 17 crosses per season @ 33%, so 11 @ 28% is going in the right direction…and goes against the view from some fans who make this accusation that we allow too many.

But that’s just data without full context, but I think what we saw on Tuesday was “wasteful” and generally we have’t been this season.

We’ve scored 10 goals from crosses (open-play) and conceded 5 this season.  That’s pretty decent imho.

 

 

 

[spudski]

Thanks for sharing the extra Stats @Davefevs appreciated.