Korey Smith

[Tin Soldier]

@Davefevsa lot of data, detail and info - well done. I could some it up much quicker SHITSHOW of a club.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Tin Soldier

[Davefevs]

51 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I question the word but understand the sentiment. 

Yeah, I’d rather we didn’t see them!

[Tinmans Love Child]

22 hours ago, REDOXO said:

Was it? I seem to remember that SL fell out with SC they got into an argument over Gayle and Grey and the promotion team were not reinforced sufficiently. Even the leg end that was Sack Cloth kicked us back. But I’m old now memory might be faulty!

The last player standing was Smith and he left in 2020, so within 5 years the squad had all gone (3 by 2015, 7 by 2016, 11 by 2017, 14 by 2018, 16 by 2019 and 17 by 2020):

Fielding left 2019

Little left 2017

Williams left 2016

Ayling left 2016

Bryan left 2018

Flint left 2018

Cunningham left 2015

Pack left 2019

Smith left 2020

Wagstaff left 2016

Elliott retired 2015

Freeman left 2017

JET left 2015

Agard left 2016

Reid left 2018

Wilbraham left 2017

Burns left 2017

 

[REDOXO]

2 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

The last player standing was Smith and he left in 2020, so within 5 years the squad had all gone (3 by 2015, 7 by 2016, 11 by 2017, 14 by 2018, 16 by 2019 and 17 by 2020):

Fielding left 2019

Little left 2017

Williams left 2016

Ayling left 2016

Bryan left 2018

Flint left 2018

Cunningham left 2015

Pack left 2019

Smith left 2020

Wagstaff left 2016

Elliott retired 2015

Freeman left 2017

JET left 2015

Agard left 2016

Reid left 2018

Wilbraham left 2017

Burns left 2017

 

Ok so going to the following season JETs contract expired and he went back to London. Cunningham was pissed off and was sold and Elliot retired. 

I guess fairly natural attrition under the circumstances arguably. 
 

We did very little to bolster the players that were not gone immediately which was most of the team and struggled. Remind me was that when we bought Kodjia. Again seven years is a long time at 60. 
 

Gayle and Grey didn’t come and I remember being in the hostility suit at Reading pointing out to Mrs D we were in the bottom three. I’ll always remember her saying ‘we know where we are’. :laugh:. 
 

I guess after SC and the appointment of LJ the squad were dismantled as we  appeared to find gob loads of cash that SC wasn’t given and the promotion squad by and large were not thought good enough by the new incumbent. 
 

Is that a fair summary or am I way off? 

[Tinmans Love Child]

1 minute ago, REDOXO said:

Ok so going to the following season JETs contract expired and he went back to London. Cunningham was pissed off and was sold and Elliot retired. 

I guess fairly natural attrition under the circumstances arguably. 
 

We did very little to bolster the players that were not gone immediately which was most of the team and struggled. Remind me was that when we bought Kodjia. Again seven years is a long time at 60. 
 

Gayle and Grey didn’t come and I remember being in the hostility suit at Reading pointing out to Mrs D we were in the bottom three. I’ll always remember her saying ‘we know where we are’. :laugh:. 
 

I guess after SC and the appointment of LJ the squad were dismantled as we  appeared to find gob loads of cash that SC wasn’t given and the promotion squad by and large were not thought good enough by the new incumbent. 
 

Is that a fair summary or am I way off? 

Obviously there is always natural attrition and changes with any squad, there has to be, and it's not as if we didn't bring new players in cause we bought boat loads in, but to see such a great group of players who had a great team spirit and bond I would say, who were successful with what they achieved, completely ripped apart within 3 seasons really, means that we lost  identity completely and with so many comings and goings it was inevitable that we ended up where we did with a bloated and disjointed squad.  If you look at the top clubs by and large they stick with their spine and have a good few years to tweak and get success, whereas we sold the whole spine twice over!

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Ok so going to the following season JETs contract expired and he went back to London. Cunningham was pissed off and was sold and Elliot retired. 

I guess fairly natural attrition under the circumstances arguably. 
 

We did very little to bolster the players that were not gone immediately which was most of the team and struggled. Remind me was that when we bought Kodjia. Again seven years is a long time at 60. 
 

Gayle and Grey didn’t come and I remember being in the hostility suit at Reading pointing out to Mrs D we were in the bottom three. I’ll always remember her saying ‘we know where we are’. :laugh:. 
 

I guess after SC and the appointment of LJ the squad were dismantled as we  appeared to find gob loads of cash that SC wasn’t given and the promotion squad by and large were not thought good enough by the new incumbent. 
 

Is that a fair summary or am I way off? 

We signed the following in the summer of 2015:

• Kodjia - £3m(ish)
• Fredericks (short-lived) - £250k in / out
• Hamer - loan
• Baker - loan
• L.Moore - loan
• Robinson - loan
• Cox - loan
• Bennett - loan (after Fredericks left)

We missed out on Gray and Maguire (Gayle never wanted to come here, even though we tried).

[Bris Red]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We signed the following in the summer of 2015:

• Kodjia - £3m(ish)
• Fredericks (short-lived) - £250k in / out
• Hamer - loan
• Baker - loan
• L.Moore - loan
• Robinson - loan
• Cox - loan
• Bennett - loan (after Fredericks left)

We missed out on Gray and Maguire (Gayle never wanted to come here, even though we tried).

Forgot totally about Fredericks. Always found the way he left a bit of an odd one, fair to say his career has gone on a massive upward trajectory since though and is now a seasoned campaigner in the Prem!

[REDOXO]

16 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

Obviously there is always natural attrition and changes with any squad, there has to be, and it's not as if we didn't bring new players in cause we bought boat loads in, but to see such a great group of players who had a great team spirit and bond I would say, who were successful with what they achieved, completely ripped apart within 3 seasons really, means that we lost  identity completely and with so many comings and goings it was inevitable that we ended up where we did with a bloated and disjointed squad.  If you look at the top clubs by and large they stick with their spine and have a good few years to tweak and get success, whereas we sold the whole spine twice over!

Yes I agree. However apparently they were completely dismantled by and large on the basis of bringing in players with the right DNA. Not by the bloke who assembled them!?
 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

25 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We signed the following in the summer of 2015:

• Kodjia - £3m(ish)
• Fredericks (short-lived) - £250k in / out
• Hamer - loan
• Baker - loan
• L.Moore - loan
• Robinson - loan
• Cox - loan
• Bennett - loan (after Fredericks left)

We missed out on Gray and Maguire (Gayle never wanted to come here, even though we tried).

Didn't utilise some of those to the best tbh. Moore and Robinson two good Championship players. Do think we missed Tavernier for one and probably others too.

[Steve Watts]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Re the second bullet, that’s been the real saving grace.  Reid, Bryan and Kelly, with Semenyo, Scott and Conway to come.  It is this area that will allow us to return to trying to be sustainable (albeit with a bit of funding from SL).

We were mismanaged…shockingly so.

Hopefully we will see 21/22’s accounts this week.

Great insight as always Dave.  With the quoted bit of your message above, irrespective of what happens with Scott, Semenyo and Conway the most important bit of business in January will be RG's replacement.  Get that wrong and I can't see the best deals possible being reached for those three or any others.  

The hope is that the groundwork he's laid since coming on board means that his replacement is stepping onto a far more secure footing than he did.  

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Didn't utilise some of those to the best tbh. Moore and Robinson two good Championship players. Do think we missed Tavernier for one and probably others too.

Moore picked up a hernia injury early on here, tried to play through it, but needed an op.

For me, Robinson should’ve played off of Kodjia more often, alternating minutes with Wilbraham.  He was sharp.  Cox seemed to be a loan to point a message at the board.

Bennett and Baker were good.

Hamer had crisp-packet hands but was brilliant v Boro (a).

[maxjak]

On 06/11/2022 at 15:31, phantom said:

Such a legend you spelt his name wrong

Pedant Alert..............

[BCFC1512]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

We signed the following in the summer of 2015:

• Kodjia - £3m(ish)
• Fredericks (short-lived) - £250k in / out
• Hamer - loan
• Baker - loan
• L.Moore - loan
• Robinson - loan
• Cox - loan
• Bennett - loan (after Fredericks left)

We missed out on Gray and Maguire (Gayle never wanted to come here, even though we tried).

Did we actually have a change of getting Gray? If yes what stopped it 

[Lanterne Rouge]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Moore picked up a hernia injury early on here, tried to play through it, but needed an op.

For me, Robinson should’ve played off of Kodjia more often, alternating minutes with Wilbraham.  He was sharp.  Cox seemed to be a loan to point a message at the board.

Bennett and Baker were good.

Hamer had crisp-packet hands but was brilliant v Boro (a).

I still say to this day that Cotts never wanted the loans we got in and consequently we had players like Robinson being played out of position.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Taunton_BCFC said:

Did we actually have a change of getting Gray? If yes what stopped it 

Yes.

John Pelling.

 

The story is Cotts / Burt had agreed a fee and wages for both Gray and Maguire, something like £4m / £14k and £2m / £10k (it’s a long time ago now).  They went off on holiday, expecting Pelling to complete the deals.  But Pelling thought he could do a better deal and tried to negotiate down.  Brentford said, we’ll tout him around then, Burnley got interested.  Hull said if you want to play silly buggers it’s now £4m.

Cotts was fuming, City tried to compete with Burnley, but the price was now £6m, Gray wanted £18k and he chose Burnley.  There was a video where he looked really choked up / angry…might’ve been after the Yeovil friendly.

Maguire could not be resurrected.

Whilst trying to keep the fire burning with Brentford / Gray, we tried to get Gayle from Palace.  It looked as if a £6m fee (rising to £9m) was acceptable to Palace, but Gayle never had any intention of coming here.  I don’t believe we were ever trying to sign both, we had Kodjia already.

[Mr Popodopolous]

40 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

I still say to this day that Cotts never wanted the loans we got in and consequently we had players like Robinson being played out of position.

Quite possibly so, think he can be critiqued to an extent for that...it was a bit of a delicate time with the rebuild still ongoing and revenue rises coming down the track- as well as the transition from 1 year £13m to 3 year £39m limit.

23 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yes.

John Pelling.

 

The story is Cotts / Burt had agreed a fee and wages for both Gray and Maguire, something like £4m / £14k and £2m / £10k (it’s a long time ago now).  They went off on holiday, expecting Pelling to complete the deals.  But Pelling thought he could do a better deal and tried to negotiate down.  Brentford said, we’ll tout him around then, Burnley got interested.  Hull said if you want to play silly buggers it’s now £4m.

Cotts was fuming, City tried to compete with Burnley, but the price was now £6m, Gray wanted £18k and he chose Burnley.  There was a video where he looked really choked up / angry…might’ve been after the Yeovil friendly.

Maguire could not be resurrected.

Whilst trying to keep the fire burning with Brentford / Gray, we tried to get Gayle from Palace.  It looked as if a £6m fee (rising to £9m) was acceptable to Palace, but Gayle never had any intention of coming here.  I don’t believe we were ever trying to sign both, we had Kodjia already.

Could signing one or both of those at that price have unbalanced the wage structure? I recall SL wasn't a great fan of agents or their fees, demands etc- or is this a red herring?

Perhaps we could have signed both, all of the loan signings and been just about compliant in the final 1 year assessment. (Took place in December 2016).

Edited November 7, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[1960maaan]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

They went off on holiday, expecting Pelling to complete the deals.

The story or version I heard touted around, put that blame on young Lansdown. 
I've heard JL get a fair bit of stick for it.

38 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

I still say to this day that Cotts never wanted the loans we got in and consequently we had players like Robinson being played out of position.

Tha's more or less what I heard ,SC didn't want the loans he was given and didn't get the ones he wanted, and that's why he spat the dummy trying to make a point. Empty seats o the bench, un used loan players etc.

[Davefevs]

21 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

The story or version I heard touted around, put that blame on young Lansdown. 
I've heard JL get a fair bit of stick for it.

Tha's more or less what I heard ,SC didn't want the loans he was given and didn't get the ones he wanted, and that's why he spat the dummy trying to make a point. Empty seats o the bench, un used loan players etc.

Pelling was relieved of his duties shortly after, so either he was the scapegoat for JL, or it was him!

27 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Quite possibly so, think he can be critiqued to an extent for that...it was a bit of a delicate time with the rebuild still ongoing and revenue rises coming down the track- as well as the transition from 1 year £13m to 3 year £39m limit.

Could signing one or both of those at that price have unbalanced the wage structure? I recall SL wasn't a great fan of agents or their fees, demands etc- or is this a red herring?

Perhaps we could have signed both, all of the loan signings and been just about compliant in the final 1 year assessment. (Took place in December 2016).

It was gonna be an unbalanced wage structure anyway with promotion.

If we’d have got Gray and Maguire on 4 year deals for example I don’t think a combined £6m (£1.5m p.a.) would’ve been too bad.

[Mr Popodopolous]

28 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Pelling was relieved of his duties shortly after, so either he was the scapegoat for JL, or it was him!

It was gonna be an unbalanced wage structure anyway with promotion.

If we’d have got Gray and Maguire on 4 year deals for example I don’t think a combined £6m (£1.5m p.a.) would’ve been too bad.

4 year deals? Okay I assumed 3 Yeah good value definitely...£14k and £10k in wages, another £2.7m in wages and amortisation combined.

Yeah maybe then, assumed was more tbh but by the same token one more year of relative pragmatism by Cotts and summer 2016 he can reap some rewards instead of it going to LJ. Timing and circs, things fell into his lap somewhat LJ.

Kieran Maguire having just checked, had us at a £12.2m FFP loss for that season, so another £0.8k of headroom so if broadly accurate, something would have had to give? Final 1 year assessment and that.

Then again those two stay, maybe Cotts does too, no compensation for paying him off, LJ basically no compensation to shell out for him.

Less January signings, less summer 2015 loan signings...

Edited November 7, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[PHILINFRANCE]

5 hours ago, REDOXO said:

Gayle and Grey didn’t come and I remember being in the hostility suit at Reading pointing out to Mrs D we were in the bottom three. I’ll always remember her saying ‘we know where we are’. :laugh:. 

Is that a fair summary or am I way off? 

Do you ever get angry with predictive text?

[PHILINFRANCE]

4 hours ago, Bris Red said:

Forgot totally about Fredericks. Always found the way he left a bit of an odd one, fair to say his career has gone on a massive upward trajectory since though and is now a seasoned campaigner in the Prem!

Much though I liked Mark Little (going forward), I still think we let the wrong player go.

[REDOXO]

10 hours ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Do you ever get angry with predictive text?

I do. Often.  However that one was deliberate. I’m in Brizz for two days and called in for hospitality for tonight (which was  no longer available) and the bloke on the other end called it hostility too. 
 

However pay on the day. Looks like a couple at bedminster cricket club and fish n chips in a bag. 

[Winterstoke toad]

16 hours ago, Bris Red said:

Forgot totally about Fredericks. Always found the way he left a bit of an odd one, fair to say his career has gone on a massive upward trajectory since though and is now a seasoned campaigner in the Prem!

Was it fredericks who mark little sparked out in training? 

[PHILINFRANCE]

2 hours ago, Winterstoke toad said:

Was it fredericks who mark little sparked out in training? 

Yes, allegedly.

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Yes, allegedly.

 

The punch up is real, the knocked-out bit is invention. 

[NickJ]

17 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yes.

John Pelling.

 

The story is Cotts / Burt had agreed a fee and wages for both Gray and Maguire, something like £4m / £14k and £2m / £10k (it’s a long time ago now).  They went off on holiday, expecting Pelling to complete the deals.  But Pelling thought he could do a better deal and tried to negotiate down.  Brentford said, we’ll tout him around then, Burnley got interested.  Hull said if you want to play silly buggers it’s now £4m.

Cotts was fuming, City tried to compete with Burnley, but the price was now £6m, Gray wanted £18k and he chose Burnley.  There was a video where he looked really choked up / angry…might’ve been after the Yeovil friendly.

Maguire could not be resurrected.

Whilst trying to keep the fire burning with Brentford / Gray, we tried to get Gayle from Palace.  It looked as if a £6m fee (rising to £9m) was acceptable to Palace, but Gayle never had any intention of coming here.  I don’t believe we were ever trying to sign both, we had Kodjia already.

Still to this day angers me that happened, we were on a roll, Cotts was a proven winner and had diligently put everything in place to have a real go at going up again.

Within a few months it went from that to Cotts sacked and replaced by JL's mate, mister cliche. Absolutely shocking.

Whoever was responsible for changing the course of our history in an extremely bad way, ultimately Lansdown failed very badly, appointing JL as managing director and chairman was/is a complete travesty.

 

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Still to this day angers me that happened, we were on a roll, Cotts was a proven winner and had diligently put everything in place to have a real go at going up again.

Within a few months it went from that to Cotts sacked and replaced by JL's mate, mister cliche. Absolutely shocking.

Whoever was responsible for changing the course of our history in an extremely bad way, ultimately Lansdown failed very badly, appointing JL as managing director and chairman was/is a complete travesty.

 

Keith Burt went soon after too…MA designs on promoting himself from COO to CEO and taking on the “football side” too.  And lo and behold, it meant he couldn’t juggle both operations and football, so needed a head of operations.  Enter Luke Werhun, MA’s brother-in-law / cousin / whatever to fill that role.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, NickJ said:

Still to this day angers me that happened, we were on a roll, Cotts was a proven winner and had diligently put everything in place to have a real go at going up again.

Within a few months it went from that to Cotts sacked and replaced by JL's mate, mister cliche. Absolutely shocking.

Whoever was responsible for changing the course of our history in an extremely bad way, ultimately Lansdown failed very badly, appointing JL as managing director and chairman was/is a complete travesty.

 

We were within £0.8m as per some calculations of breaching the final level of FFP regs that season when our income levels were still low..which would have meant an automatic embargo imposed in Jan 2017. Unsure it's as cut and dry as you state.

Assuming no promotion in 2015-16.

They did a final 1 year assessment in December 2016, I expect you'd have been moaning had we got an embargo in Jan 2017...The accounts show our losses pre transfer activity that year...perhaps Maguire, Gray and Kodjia alone may have kept us in line.

Let's say a £12m FFP loss that year.

Combined fees for Gray and Maguire £6m. 4 year deals.

Bargain yes but that adds £1.5m to the cost base.

Wages- seen stated on here £12k per week each.

Adds another £1.2m to the cost base.

Then again who don't we sign to balance the books or who do we sell? You have £1.7m more to find..

I suppose in this scenario, Cotts and Burt stay..and no LJ which saves on compensation both outgoing and to Barnsley.

Hamer, Bennett, Moore, Baker, Robinson and Cox all on loan 1st half of season.

O'Donnell and Golbourne signed permanently Jan 2016.

Matthews, Pearce, Gladwin and Tomlin all arrived on loan Jan 2016.

Odemwingie March 2016.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Indeed @NickJ

£3.5m to work with only. Promotion and just £3.5m to strengthen. Maybe a bit more if not for management changes.

Maguire and Gray alone would have taken up £2.7m of that (reported amortisation plus wages). Wonder if we would have been left dangerously thin?

GK: Fielding, O'Leary

DF: Little, Ayling, Williams, Flint, Maguire

MF: Smith, Pack, Freeman, Reid, Wagstaff, Bryan

FW: Gray, Kodjia, Agard, Wilbraham, yes okay Burns

£800k only to strengthen further...plan? Possibly not included Kodjia in my calculations either.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

44 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Indeed @NickJ

£3.5m to work with only. Promotion and just £3.5m to strengthen. Maybe a bit more if not for management changes.

Maguire and Gray alone would have taken up £2.7m of that (reported amortisation plus wages). Wonder if we would have been left dangerously thin?

GK: Fielding, O'Leary

DF: Little, Ayling, Williams, Flint, Maguire

MF: Smith, Pack, Freeman, Reid, Wagstaff, Bryan

FW: Gray, Kodjia, Agard, Wilbraham, yes okay Burns

£800k only to strengthen further...plan? Possibly not included Kodjia in my calculations either.

We wouldn’t have loaned either Baker or Moore (maybe both), nor Cox or Robinson (maybe both) had we signed Gray and Maguire.  We probably wouldn’t have needed Odemwingie, Gladwin or Tomlin either.

Just saying