Lee Johnson

[Silvio Dante]

12 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Steve your really losing your rag here, I can see why a couple of under nines coaches respect LJ like you and silv, that's exactly his level, no disrespect 

I think first off, decouple LJ the player from LJ the coach. You’re all over the place here and if you want to make a coherent argument you’re not going the right way around it.

FWIW LJ the player wasn’t exceptional- but nobody ever said he was. He wasn’t, however, shit. That’s proven by the fact he was an integral (and whether you like it or not, he was and the stats prove he was) part of the most successful side at this level in the last 50 years.

As a coach, what I’d like about LJ the player are a few things - it’s been pointed out how he positively affected our possession stats and adapted his game, but what would endear him to me most is that he made the best of the ability he had. Naturally was that below Noble? Yep, course it was. Noble, by his own consensus, and as memorably highlighted by Gazza, had it all but didn’t work hard enough. One of the basics (and side note - don’t disparage under 9s coaches or any coaches who do things voluntarily) that I teach all my teams is that hard work comes first, and someone who works for a team at 100% of the effort will always be a better choice than someone who coasts at 80% because they’re naturally better.

That’s what that GJ side was - it was a side who worked exceptionally hard and left it on the pitch every game - as I said, greater than the sum of its parts.  And LJ was integral to that. His natural ability level was probably L1 but he made himself a championship top four player (in that system, in that side).

That you can’t, or refuse to acknowledge that does - yeah - make me want @Steve Watts as a coach over someone who thinks like you appear to.

Plus, Steve’s bigger than me.

As for LJ the manager - again been done to death but his Brentism doesn’t help him. His greatest strength (he thinks a lot about the game) is also his greatest weakness (he thinks too much). In the 17/18 he hit on a great system and played superb stuff but then he started overthinking - plus trying to play Fam who didn’t fit and Diony/Kent who were crap. Bizarrely, that side were also greater than the sum of its parts because of how hard they worked. If you look at a few of the little things he did (Flint wide on GK, that WBA game), when it went right it went very right but when it went wrong, his need to overthink and it spiralling from one selection to another meant he had losing streaks. As a manager he probably is in the wrong job - as a coach I think he’d be very good.

But I find it hard to have the vitriol you do to a man who served the club well as a player and manager. And in a very incoherent and scattergun way at that.

(Btw this response is more respect than you deserve for that last comment. I coach under 12s).
 

[Steve Watts]

22 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Steve your really losing your rag here, I can see why a couple of under nines coaches respect LJ like you and silv, that's exactly his level, no disrespect 

Losing my rag?  Nah....

Mildly amused by you? Yep.

And I note that you still have not addressed SD's post....

No-one is claiming he's the messiah, but to essentially consider him the antichrist, which is how it comes across, is just bizarre.

[1team]

9 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Hmm it's hardly like ive been told he's the best thing since sliced bread on this thread, be some more good debates

Trouble is you'll start to sound like the nutcase who only comes on here to slag his dad off. LJ was average as a manager some highs, some lows but mainly average. As a player he played a part in the most successful City team of the last 20 years and probably got more games than he should because DN was a pisshead!

Edited July 28, 2023 by 1team

[Oh Louie louie]

3 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

Losing my rag?  Nah....

Mildly amused by you? Yep.

And I note that you still have not addressed SD's post....

No-one is claiming he's the messiah, but to essentially consider him the antichrist, which is how it comes across, is just bizarre.

No point like I said anyone who thinks ljs a good manager, or was a industrial like player, like you, how can you argue that? 

[Robbored]

23 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

For me, the one thing I’d criticise LJ of is that when becoming a manager he never realised the important of that team dynamic and maybe snobbishly didn’t recognise what Marv did for his game and could’ve done for a City midfield in his teams….if that makes sense?

Marv was king pin of that team. He provided the power and grit. Noble (when GJ played him) was a very gifted player with terrific skills who could and did create something out of nothing, something of a luxury player. LJ was bang average who to me made very little impact.

Hartley was another very decent and influential midfielder of that era but GJ sometimes left him out to accommodate for his little boy……….

[Oh Louie louie]

And im mildly amused by two under 12 coaches attitude's to say thel least, hardly Clough and Taylor 

[Red Exile]

Well I rather liked LJ as a player, I agree that he was a key player in that play-off side. It is, however, unfortunate for LJ's reputation that the overwhelming number of his appearances were in teams picked by his Dad. That said his Dad knew a thing or two about how to build a team, a serial winner.

But I can't believe that posters I respect on here are favourably comparing LJ as a manager to Nigel Pearson...one has won literally nothing but the Papa Johns - zero promotions in 500 matches in charge, the other - in barely a hundred more games - has achieved quite a bit. The circumstances of their tenures at City could scarcely be more different. Pearson has been brought in to clear up a mess, rebuild, and has started by laying foundations. SL bet the house on LJ, showering gifts in increasingly desperate efforts to prove that his protege was the next big thing, all in vain. Still, LJ is, as many have said, the past and gradually disappearing - like his managerial career. Pearson is the present - the future looks brighter, bring on August 5th!

[Steve Watts]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Hartley was another very decent and influential midfielder of that era but GJ sometimes left him out to accommodate for his little boy……….

I completely agree Paul Hartley was a far better player....  However 36 of his 40 appearances were in the starting line-up, so that last comment's a bit of a stretch......

[Silvio Dante]

2 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

It’s not a weak argument. I watched Marvin, I thought Marvin was great. What I can do, which you can’t, is understand that sometimes a player who isn’t popular can be integral to a team.

Just to confirm in that season:

First 38 games we got 67 points - 1.76ppg

Last 8 games we got 7 points - 0.88ppg

If for approximately 1/5 of a season you were without a certain player and you got 0.88 less ppg on average (essentially moving from promotion to relegation form), you’d suggest that player was pretty integral to the success of the team.

That it isn’t viewed that way is simply because his name is Lee Johnson.

The team that season was better - way better- than the sum of its parts (hence Byfield top scoring with 8). If you took any of them out, it may well have been the same drop off. But it was LJ, and the dropoff happened. That’s just basic facts.

 

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Marv was king pin of that team. He provided the power and grit. Noble (when GJ played him) was a very gifted player with terrific skills who could and did create something out of nothing, something of a luxury player. LJ was bang average who to me made very little impact.

Hartley was another very decent and influential midfielder of that era but GJ sometimes left him out to accommodate for his little boy……….

And there is OtIb in a nutshell. A proven statistical analysis of the impact made by a player, against a person who thinks he “made very little impact” but can’t quantify that and holds a grudge against GJ for making him soil himself in his office.

Robbo, I’ll ask you again as you appear to have missed the point old bean.

If LJ didn’t make an impact, in that team, then why upon him getting injured did we oscillate from having been in promotion form for the 80% of the season when he was in the team, to relegation form for the 20% when he wasn’t.

Take your time champ. You’ve got this.

[PHILINFRANCE]

10 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

And im mildly amused by two under 12 coaches attitude's to say thel least, hardly Clough and Taylor 

For clarity, I was laughing at you, rather than with you.

[Oh Louie louie]

No need for clarity Phil im glad I made you laugh, another way of looking at it is he who laughs last last longest no

[Oh Louie louie]

I was going out to Phil in France laughed at me, and clarified it, I mean where can i show my face now, probably just get a few cans, some patronising people on here lately 

[Davefevs]

29 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

Losing my rag?  Nah....

Mildly amused by you? Yep.

And I note that you still have not addressed SD's post....

No-one is claiming he's the messiah, but to essentially consider him the antichrist, which is how it comes across, is just bizarre.

As LJ himself would say “it’s the yin and Yang” of it!!!

[Leveller]

24 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

 

And there is OtIb in a nutshell. A proven statistical analysis of the impact made by a player, against a person who thinks he “made very little impact” but can’t quantify that and holds a grudge against GJ for making him soil himself in his office.

Robbo, I’ll ask you again as you appear to have missed the point old bean.

If LJ didn’t make an impact, in that team, then why upon him getting injured did we oscillate from having been in promotion form for the 80% of the season when he was in the team, to relegation form for the 20% when he wasn’t.

Take your time champ. You’ve got this.

Robbored is not strong on facts and is also vastly hypocritical. He seems to have forgotten the positive assessment he made of LJ just a few weeks before he left. He just can’t resist a bandwagon.

[PHILINFRANCE]

1 minute ago, Oh Louie louie said:

I was going out to Phil in France laughed at me, and clarified it, I mean where can i show my face now, probably just get a few cans, some patronising people on here lately 

You refer to ‘patronising people’ on here.

Out of curiosity, if you had to choose an adjective to describe your disparaging comments about our ‘would be Clough and Taylor’, self confessed volunteer football coaches for young  boys, which word would you choose?

[Oh Louie louie]

Phil you are the biggest shit stirrer on this site, yeah they got mouthy with me, i think you conviently forgot that, and i told them how I view them, coaching 9 year olds, not wordly wise, 

[italian dave]

49 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think first off, decouple LJ the player from LJ the coach. You’re all over the place here and if you want to make a coherent argument you’re not going the right way around it.

FWIW LJ the player wasn’t exceptional- but nobody ever said he was. He wasn’t, however, shit. That’s proven by the fact he was an integral (and whether you like it or not, he was and the stats prove he was) part of the most successful side at this level in the last 50 years.

As a coach, what I’d like about LJ the player are a few things - it’s been pointed out how he positively affected our possession stats and adapted his game, but what would endear him to me most is that he made the best of the ability he had. Naturally was that below Noble? Yep, course it was. Noble, by his own consensus, and as memorably highlighted by Gazza, had it all but didn’t work hard enough. One of the basics (and side note - don’t disparage under 9s coaches or any coaches who do things voluntarily) that I teach all my teams is that hard work comes first, and someone who works for a team at 100% of the effort will always be a better choice than someone who coasts at 80% because they’re naturally better.

That’s what that GJ side was - it was a side who worked exceptionally hard and left it on the pitch every game - as I said, greater than the sum of its parts.  And LJ was integral to that. His natural ability level was probably L1 but he made himself a championship top four player (in that system, in that side).

That you can’t, or refuse to acknowledge that does - yeah - make me want @Steve Watts as a coach over someone who thinks like you appear to.

Plus, Steve’s bigger than me.

As for LJ the manager - again been done to death but his Brentism doesn’t help him. His greatest strength (he thinks a lot about the game) is also his greatest weakness (he thinks too much). In the 17/18 he hit on a great system and played superb stuff but then he started overthinking - plus trying to play Fam who didn’t fit and Diony/Kent who were crap. Bizarrely, that side were also greater than the sum of its parts because of how hard they worked. If you look at a few of the little things he did (Flint wide on GK, that WBA game), when it went right it went very right but when it went wrong, his need to overthink and it spiralling from one selection to another meant he had losing streaks. As a manager he probably is in the wrong job - as a coach I think he’d be very good.

But I find it hard to have the vitriol you do to a man who served the club well as a player and manager. And in a very incoherent and scattergun way at that.

(Btw this response is more respect than you deserve for that last comment. I coach under 12s).
 

Post of the week, SD. Could not agree more.

I think the other way in which his overthinking evidenced itself was when he had too many options to choose from. The sheer number, and the fact that there seemed no coherent plan in who we bought - in terms of a style of play - became a problem. Whether that was down to him or to Ashton we’ll never know and we’ll probably always debate.

But as you have said, his record as a player speaks for itself. And as a manager his record was objectively none too shabby either. For people to describe that as “shit” probably says more about the them than it does about LJ.

And, absolutely: anyone who’s served the club in the way that he has, whatever you may think of his personality, style, even his achievements or underachievements - certainly doesn’t deserve that sort of vitriol.

[Robbored]

36 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Robbo, I’ll ask you again as you appear to have missed the point old bean.

If LJ didn’t make an impact, in that team, then why upon him getting injured did we oscillate from having been in promotion form for the 80% of the season when he was in the team, to relegation form for the 20% when he wasn’t.

Take your time champ. You’ve got this.

I watched every game at AG that season (as I do every season) and I honestly can’t remember LJ ever making a telling contribution apart from when he scored a goal. The midfield players that impressed me were Marv, Noble and Hartley. Marv in particular was the best of them all with his drive and power.

I remember when he got injured at Home Park on a rainy night and had to be substituted and my heart sank. Losing him was a such a blow.

I’m guessing that LJ played in that game but I can’t actually remember.

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

I watched every game at AG that season (as I do every season) and I honestly can’t remember LJ ever making a telling contribution apart from when he scored a goal. The midfield players that impressed me were Marv, Noble and Hartley. Marv in particular was the best of them all with his drive and power.

I remember when he got injured at Home Park on a rainy night and had to be substituted and my heart sank. Losing him was a such a blow.

I’m guessing that LJ played in that game but I can’t actually remember.

Old bean.

Hartley didn’t play for us in that season.

Other than that….

[italian dave]

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I watched every game at AG that season (as I do every season) and I honestly can’t remember LJ ever making a telling contribution apart from when he scored a goal. The midfield players that impressed me were Marv, Noble and Hartley. Marv in particular was the best of them all with his drive and power.

I remember when he got injured at Home Park on a rainy night and had to be substituted and my heart sank. Losing him was a such a blow.

I’m guessing that LJ played in that game but I can’t actually remember.

Precisely because he did all the simple, unappreciated, unnoticed stuff. Which is where this all started.

I loved Marv too. And his drives and his power were the things that did get noticed. But they complement each other. You don’t have to like one and dislike the other, it’s not a competition. Neither is as good without the other. 

[Silvio Dante]

7 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Phil you are the biggest shit stirrer on this site, yeah they got mouthy with me, i think you conviently forgot that, and i told them how I view them, coaching 9 year olds, not wordly wise, 

Can you show me where I got mouthy with you (as opposed to disagreeing with you on a forum which is kind of the thing that happens here). If you can, and it predates the abusive nature re coaching, I’m more than happy to apologise. If you can’t, I’m sure you’ll do me the courtesy of the same.

That’s what I’d tell my 9/12/whatever year olds to do….

[Robbored]

4 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Precisely because he did all the simple, unappreciated, unnoticed stuff. Which is where this all started.

You’re referring to Cole Skuse with that comment.

[italian dave]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

You’re referring to Cole Skuse with that comment.

Funnily enough, I very very nearly said “…like Cole Skuse….” when I wrote that. I even started to type it and then thought no let’s not bring another controversy into it!

But, yes, exactly. There was another player who did the simple, unnoticed things - and who was often very much under appreciated - just like LJ! 

[Chairman Mao]

Marvin Elliot put himself about and chipped in with a few goals. But technically and tactically LJ was ahead of him. He was an unfussy but useful player with a good first touch and decent ball retention capabilities. 

[phantom]

5 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Sure, happy to agree with that. So, if he gets us to second place this season then I will absolutely agree that there's some evidence a gulf in managerial quality between him and the two Johnsons, no doubt about it if that happens. I appreciate that's not the only criteria when judging "managerial quality", but there it is.

Impossible to compare at two completely different stages of the club, players available, budget etc available 

We may as well compare who has finished the highest position managing any team 

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, phantom said:

Impossible to compare at two completely different stages of the club, players available, budget etc available 

We may as well compare who has finished the highest position managing any team 

Sure, but I wasn't the one who started to compare. Neither were you, it was @Robbored and his argument/memory is being ably dismantled by others.

[Robbored]

1 minute ago, ExiledAjax said:

Sure, but I wasn't the one who started to compare. Neither were you, it was @Robbored and his argument/memory is being ably dismantled by others.

Ex - it’s my opinion that LJ was a bang average player largely carried by Marv, Hartley, Skuse and Noble. Stats mean nothing - I’m relaying what I actually saw. ……….

[Davefevs]

25 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I watched every game at AG that season (as I do every season) and I honestly can’t remember LJ ever making a telling contribution apart from when he scored a goal. The midfield players that impressed me were Marv, Noble and Hartley. Marv in particular was the best of them all with his drive and power.

I remember when he got injured at Home Park on a rainy night and had to be substituted and my heart sank. Losing him was a such a blow.

I’m guessing that LJ played in that game but I can’t actually remember.

Without being rude or critical, that probably sums up how you might watch a game…the focus on the end action, not what happened to get there.

Thats not a problem, we all watch games differently, and there is no right or wrong way to watch a game.

As much as there maybe was some nepotism between father and son, I still don’t think Gary would’ve picked his son as much as he did if it was detrimental.  He might have had some blinkers on, it might’ve influenced how his teams played, but his players would’ve soon let him know if they thought Lee was shit and not worthy of his place.

I’m very mixed on LJ, but as Silvio said, he was an integral part of a team that almost went up automatically.  I don’t think a team like Bristol City at that time could carry any player.

 

For all of us that like Cotts, you could draw a comparison with Wade Elliott in 15/16….we missed that player to do the simple stuff, to give and goes, keep the ball moving, etc.  LJ did that.

It is a player-type that most City / football fans under appreciate….yet so many pro managers have them in their teams.

What does that tell us?

[italian dave]

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Ex - it’s my opinion that LJ was a bang average player largely carried by Marv, Hartley, Skuse and Noble. Stats mean nothing - I’m relaying what I actually saw. ……….

And it's all about opinions.

 

It's just that some opinions are well balanced, some are bang average, and some are just shit.

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Ex - it’s my opinion that LJ was a bang average player largely carried by Marv, Hartley, Skuse and Noble. Stats mean nothing - I’m relaying what I actually saw. ……….

But don’t be surprised when others saw very different and importantly provide more than just opinion to back that up.