Lee Johnson

[Leveller]

17 hours ago, Davefevs said:

= groundsman

= officials

 

do you think LJ went into the dressing room and said “I’ve measured the grass it’s 23mm, rather than 22mm today, make sure you hit the passes a bit firmer”?

he probably did, and they probably laughed / retorted “yeah we know that, I just hit a few passes in the warm-up”.

He very probably did. Let’s not forget that LJ was born in Newmarket and spent his childhood watching Gary who was assistant to John Beck at Cambridge United, during their phenomenal rise up the league.

Now Beck’s tactics may have been derided, but they were based on analysis that was light years ahead of most other coaches, which led him to believe that direct football was the route to success. And of course it was, up to a point.

As you well know, Beck used every trick in the book to find “marginal gains”, tricks which have become legend, many being to unsettle the opposition before they even got on the pitch. One of his tricks was to order the groundsmen to leave the grass longer in the corners of the pitch, so the ball would hold up more, helping his wingers get in crosses to Dion Dublin and John Taylor.

So it’s highly likely that LJ’s views on marginal gains derived from his experience of Beck’s methods, either directly or via Gary. And he would have been aware that other managers might follow Beck’s example so the grass would be at different lengths in different places. Thus, relying on players’ instinct during the warm up could be seen as over simplistic and a bit late in the day.

I think the story originated in this article by Gregor McG in 2017, actually an interview with McAllister.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/jamie-mcallister-explains-bristol-city-704346

‘The Bristol Post asked how the different height of the grass might influence the game plan.

"It can do [influence a tactic]. If the grass is a bit long then you might be able to leave it [the ball] in the corner a bit more, it'll hold up," explained McAllister.’

The article also uses the “marginal gains” phrase. So the echoes of John Beck are clear. JB wasn’t popular, but his attention to detail clearly left its mark.

[Harry]

3 minutes ago, Glen hump said:

Not sure what you’ve listened to but not the ones I have, what ex players have been on the Coke ? 

Come on now. Most of those podcasts are full of the “characters” of the game. 
The “characters” don’t tend to be the best “professionals”. 

[Glen hump]

Just now, Harry said:

Come on now. Most of those podcasts are full of the “characters” of the game. 
The “characters” don’t tend to be the best “professionals”. 

Maybe not , what ex players are piss heads and like the coke 

[Glen hump]

6 minutes ago, Harry said:

Come on now. Most of those podcasts are full of the “characters” of the game. 
The “characters” don’t tend to be the best “professionals”. 

Even Wilbraham didn’t exactly give him a glowing reference and he was a top professional 

[Harry]

1 hour ago, The Humble Realist said:

People saying hes been sacked in his last 3 jobs for poor performance but to look it at it another way

-sacked from Bristol city but guided club from relegation candidates to solid top half team 

-sacked from sunderland despite them being in the top 6 at the same time (maybe even 3rd?)

-sacked after guiding Hibs into europe following a poor start to the following season 

 

Not saying these are my views but some people almost implying his last 3 jobs have been disastrous failures whereas if you were him you would easily be able to spin it the other way...and knowing Johnson he most definitely will!

I dont understand the hate for Johnson , I understand he might not be a favourite but you have to try and have some balance and fairness in assessing things. 

Yep. The other main stick levelled at LJ is that he’s not got a promotion on his CV. 
 

Ok ;

Oldham. 
Took over when they were in the relegation zone. Got them to safety and then improved to 15th the next season. 
I don’t think promotion would have been either expected or achievable at Oldham. 
Summary : Successful 
 

Barnsley. 
Took over when they were 16th and got them to 11th. 
Next season he had them improving and had just come off of manager of the month before leaving for us. The team he’d put together then made the playoffs 2 months later and got promoted, as well as winning the EFL trophy. 
He didn’t even have a full season at Barnsley so it was basically impossible to achieve a promotion in this role. But they were promoted 2 months after he left. 
Summary : Successful 
 

Bristol City. 
Took over when we were in the relegation zone. Guided us to safety. Subsequently improved the position year on year until the final season. 
Was promotion an expectation at City? No. Was it a possibility? Yes, an outside chance. Did we get close? Quite close on 2 occasions. 
Summary : Nearly. 
 

Sunderland. 
Took over a club who are too big for the division but had struggled for 2 years. 
Made the playoffs first year. Won the EFL trophy. 
Was in the playoffs when he was sacked. 
Team were promoted 2 months later. 
Was promotion an expectation at Sunderland? Yes. Did he achieve it? Arguably he could (and should) have done had he been given til the end of that season. 
Summary : Overall improvement, and a trophy, a playoff final and left them in a great place to go up 2 months after. 
 

Hibs. 
Finished 8th the season before. Got them to 5th and Europe. 
Promotion : Impossible. 
Summary : Improved and qualified for Europe. 
 

So. 5 jobs so far. No promotions. Hibs can’t get promoted. Oldham were relegation candidates. Barnsley and Sunderland both got promoted 2 months after he left with the squad he’d built. 
And of course he didn’t get promoted with City either - but then, only 1 person has done so in over 100 years. 
 

So, I don’t think this “he’s not got a promotion” is really a very relevant argument. 

[Glen hump]

1 minute ago, Harry said:

Yep. The other main stick levelled at LJ is that he’s not got a promotion on his CV. 
 

Ok ;

Oldham. 
Took over when they were in the relegation zone. Got them to safety and then improved to 15th the next season. 
I don’t think promotion would have been either expected or achievable at Oldham. 
Summary : Successful 
 

Barnsley. 
Took over when they were 16th and got them to 11th. 
Next season he had them improving and had just come off of manager of the month before leaving for us. The team he’d put together then made the playoffs 2 months later and got promoted, as well as winning the EFL trophy. 
He didn’t even have a full season at Barnsley so it was basically impossible to achieve a promotion in this role. But they were promoted 2 months after he left. 
Summary : Successful 
 

Bristol City. 
Took over when we were in the relegation zone. Guided us to safety. Subsequently improved the position year on year until the final season. 
Was promotion an expectation at City? No. Was it a possibility? Yes, an outside chance. Did we get close? Quite close on 2 occasions. 
Summary : Nearly. 
 

Sunderland. 
Took over a club who are too big for the division but had struggled for 2 years. 
Made the playoffs first year. Won the EFL trophy. 
Was in the playoffs when he was sacked. 
Team were promoted 2 months later. 
Was promotion an expectation at Sunderland? Yes. Did he achieve it? Arguably he could (and should) have done had he been given til the end of that season. 
Summary : Overall improvement, and a trophy, a playoff final and left them in a great place to go up 2 months after. 
 

Hibs. 
Finished 8th the season before. Got them to 5th and Europe. 
Promotion : Impossible. 
Summary : Improved and qualified for Europe. 
 

So. 5 jobs so far. No promotions. Hibs can’t get promoted. Oldham were relegation candidates. Barnsley and Sunderland both got promoted 2 months after he left with the squad he’d built. 
And of course he didn’t get promoted with City either - but then, only 1 person has done so in over 100 years. 
 

So, I don’t think this “he’s not got a promotion” is really a very relevant argument. 

Remind me harry, when did we get close 

[Harry]

Just now, Glen hump said:

Remind me harry, when did we get close 

There were 2 seasons where we were in the mix for the playoffs until the last week. 
That’s pretty close, no? 

[Glen hump]

2 minutes ago, Harry said:

Yep. The other main stick levelled at LJ is that he’s not got a promotion on his CV. 
 

Ok ;

Oldham. 
Took over when they were in the relegation zone. Got them to safety and then improved to 15th the next season. 
I don’t think promotion would have been either expected or achievable at Oldham. 
Summary : Successful 
 

Barnsley. 
Took over when they were 16th and got them to 11th. 
Next season he had them improving and had just come off of manager of the month before leaving for us. The team he’d put together then made the playoffs 2 months later and got promoted, as well as winning the EFL trophy. 
He didn’t even have a full season at Barnsley so it was basically impossible to achieve a promotion in this role. But they were promoted 2 months after he left. 
Summary : Successful 
 

Bristol City. 
Took over when we were in the relegation zone. Guided us to safety. Subsequently improved the position year on year until the final season. 
Was promotion an expectation at City? No. Was it a possibility? Yes, an outside chance. Did we get close? Quite close on 2 occasions. 
Summary : Nearly. 
 

Sunderland. 
Took over a club who are too big for the division but had struggled for 2 years. 
Made the playoffs first year. Won the EFL trophy. 
Was in the playoffs when he was sacked. 
Team were promoted 2 months later. 
Was promotion an expectation at Sunderland? Yes. Did he achieve it? Arguably he could (and should) have done had he been given til the end of that season. 
Summary : Overall improvement, and a trophy, a playoff final and left them in a great place to go up 2 months after. 
 

Hibs. 
Finished 8th the season before. Got them to 5th and Europe. 
Promotion : Impossible. 
Summary : Improved and qualified for Europe. 
 

So. 5 jobs so far. No promotions. Hibs can’t get promoted. Oldham were relegation candidates. Barnsley and Sunderland both got promoted 2 months after he left with the squad he’d built. 
And of course he didn’t get promoted with City either - but then, only 1 person has done so in over 100 years. 
 

So, I don’t think this “he’s not got a promotion” is really a very relevant argument. 

You’ve forgot to mention he doubled our wage bill and left us in a complete mess , not all his fault .

[Harry]

8 minutes ago, Glen hump said:

Even Wilbraham didn’t exactly give him a glowing reference and he was a top professional 

I said “mostly” 

[Glen hump]

1 minute ago, Harry said:

There were 2 seasons where we were in the mix for the playoffs until the last week. 
That’s pretty close, no? 

No it’s not close, you stated  he had us close to promotion

[Harry]

Just now, Glen hump said:

You’ve forgot to mention he doubled our wage bill and left us in a complete mess , not all his fault .

Still got close though. 
Besides. It’s an argument about why there’s no promotion on his CV. 
It’s irrelevant, given the jobs he’s had and the expectations

[Glen hump]

1 minute ago, Harry said:

I said “mostly” 

I’ll ask you again, what ex players were piss heads and liked the coke 

[Harry]

Just now, Glen hump said:

No it’s not close, you stated  he had us close to promotion

And what were our expectations? Playoffs? Yes, at a push. Hence “nearly” successful 

[Glen hump]

Just now, Harry said:

Still got close though. 
Besides. It’s an argument about why there’s no promotion on his CV. 
It’s irrelevant, given the jobs he’s had and the expectations

Not close though is it 

[Harry]

Just now, Glen hump said:

I’ll ask you again, what ex players were piss heads and liked the coke 

A lot of those ones on those podcasts. That’s why they’re invited on 

Just now, Glen hump said:

Not close though is it 

Close to the playoffs for us, yes. 

[Glen hump]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

Still got close though. 
Besides. It’s an argument about why there’s no promotion on his CV. 
It’s irrelevant, given the jobs he’s had and the expectations

The highest he got us was 8th , not close at all if we’d made the playoffs and got to the final that would be close 

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

A lot of those ones on those podcasts. That’s why they’re invited on 

Close to the playoffs for us, yes. 

You said promotion 

[Jose]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

A lot of those ones on those podcasts. That’s why they’re invited on 

Close to the playoffs for us, yes. 

He’s now managing Fleetwood. 
 

That’s says it all for me. If he was half the manager he or you think he is he wouldn’t be managing a tiny club with an average gate of 3600.

 

[myol'man]

13 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

Saturday 18th November. 10 min walk from my house. Rude not to get in that away end! 

Grand opening of the new South Stand 

[Harry]

25 minutes ago, Jose said:

He’s now managing Fleetwood. 
 

That’s says it all for me. If he was half the manager he or you think he is he wouldn’t be managing a tiny club with an average gate of 3600.

 

I don’t think he’s all that myself. I’m just trying to calm the vitriol. I made a very reasoned post about why he doesn’t have a promotion on his CV. It’s a criticism levelled at him which is unfair. 
Yes, please go ahead and happily say that he spent a lot of money for us, that he has ‘player relations’ problems, speaks in riddles etc, that’s all fine. But to criticise someone for not having a promotion in 5 jobs, where 1 was impossible, 2 were unachievable, 1 was very close and the other showing steady improvement, is a criticism that is unwarranted. 

[Bedred31]

50 minutes ago, Leveller said:

He very probably did. Let’s not forget that LJ was born in Newmarket and spent his childhood watching Gary who was assistant to John Beck at Cambridge United, during their phenomenal rise up the league.

Now Beck’s tactics may have been derided, but they were based on analysis that was light years ahead of most other coaches, which led him to believe that direct football was the route to success. And of course it was, up to a point.

As you well know, Beck used every trick in the book to find “marginal gains”, tricks which have become legend, many being to unsettle the opposition before they even got on the pitch. One of his tricks was to order the groundsmen to leave the grass longer in the corners of the pitch, so the ball would hold up more, helping his wingers get in crosses to Dion Dublin and John Taylor.

So it’s highly likely that LJ’s views on marginal gains derived from his experience of Beck’s methods, either directly or via Gary. And he would have been aware that other managers might follow Beck’s example so the grass would be at different lengths in different places. Thus, relying on players’ instinct during the warm up could be seen as over simplistic and a bit late in the day.

I think the story originated in this article by Gregor McG in 2017, actually an interview with McAllister.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/jamie-mcallister-explains-bristol-city-704346

‘The Bristol Post asked how the different height of the grass might influence the game plan.

"It can do [influence a tactic]. If the grass is a bit long then you might be able to leave it [the ball] in the corner a bit more, it'll hold up," explained McAllister.’

The article also uses the “marginal gains” phrase. So the echoes of John Beck are clear. JB wasn’t popular, but his attention to detail clearly left its mark.

There’s route one and then there was Beck. Most soul destroying football I ever watched. His tactic, actually, was to over water the corners, so that the ball would stop when the goalkeeper punted it forwards. The left/right back would invariably kick it into touch, whereupon Cambridge would produce a long throw into the box. That was literally it- big kick, splash, throw into the box. I liked Wimbledon but this was truly awful.

[Harry]

32 minutes ago, Glen hump said:

The highest he got us was 8th , not close at all if we’d made the playoffs and got to the final that would be close 

You said promotion 

I said “was promotion an expectation? No. Was it a possibility? yes. Did it happen? Quite close”. 
 

Yes, for me, being in with a playoff shout twice in 2 seasons where it pretty much came down to the last game or 2 does define “quite close” to getting playoffs, and being in the playoffs does mean you are “quite close” to promotion. 
 

Such a bizarre thing to argue about? 
Yes, twice we got “quite close”. 

[Glen hump]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

I don’t think he’s all that myself. I’m just trying to calm the vitriol. I made a very reasoned post about why he doesn’t have a promotion on his CV. It’s a criticism levelled at him which is unfair. 
Yes, please go ahead and happily say that he spent a lot of money for us, that he has ‘player relations’ problems, speaks in riddles etc, that’s all fine. But to criticise someone for not having a promotion in 5 jobs, where 1 was impossible, 2 were unachievable, 1 was very close and the other showing steady improvement, is a criticism that is unwarranted. 

You’ve gone from 2 were close to1 , he wasn’t close, you can’t possibly argue it 

[Glen hump]

8 minutes ago, Harry said:

I don’t think he’s all that myself. I’m just trying to calm the vitriol. I made a very reasoned post about why he doesn’t have a promotion on his CV. It’s a criticism levelled at him which is unfair. 
Yes, please go ahead and happily say that he spent a lot of money for us, that he has ‘player relations’ problems, speaks in riddles etc, that’s all fine. But to criticise someone for not having a promotion in 5 jobs, where 1 was impossible, 2 were unachievable, 1 was very close and the other showing steady improvement, is a criticism that is unwarranted. 

Barnsley promotion definitely achievable, Sunderland definitely, City into the playoffs with what he spent we should have made it to the playoffs 

[Harry]

1 minute ago, Glen hump said:

You’ve gone from 2 were close to1 , he wasn’t close, you can’t possibly argue it 

What are you on about? 
I’ll break down those 5 again, as per the quoted post. 
He was very close to promotion with Sunderland. They went up 2 months after he left. 
He steadily improved City. 
Hibs was impossible to get promoted. 
Oldham was unachievable. 
Barnsley was unachievable (because didn’t even have a full season). 
 

Then, it’s already pointed out, 2 teams he left got promoted within 2 months. And he came “quite close” twice to getting City im the playoffs. 
 

Look - I’m not gonna carry on going round and round with you. Ultimately, I came here to say that “not having a promotion” on his CV was an unfair argument. And I stand by that. And also stand by the fact that 2 of his squads got promoted just after he left. 

I get why lots of people don’t like him, but there is a fair amount of unfair criticism- this promotions thing being one. 

[Glen hump]

Just now, Harry said:

What are you on about? 
I’ll break down those 5 again, as per the quoted post. 
He was very close to promotion with Sunderland. They went up 2 months after he left. 
He steadily improved City. 
Hibs was impossible to get promoted. 
Oldham was unachievable. 
Barnsley was unachievable (because didn’t even have a full season). 
 

Then, it’s already pointed out, 2 teams he left got promoted within 2 months. And he came “quite close” twice to getting City im the playoffs. 
 

Look - I’m not gonna carry on going round and round with you. Ultimately, I came here to say that “not having a promotion” on his CV was an unfair argument. And I stand by that. And also stand by the fact that 2 of his squads got promoted just after he left. 

I get why lots of people don’t like him, but there is a fair amount of unfair criticism- this promotions thing being one. 

Fair enough, we’ll never agree, enjoy your weekend 

[Harry]

1 minute ago, Glen hump said:

Barnsley promotion definitely achievable, Sunderland definitely, City into the playoffs with what he spent we should have made it to the playoffs 

Barnsley promotion was NOT achievable - because he wasn’t there a full season. He left them in a good place to then go on and get promotion 2 months later. 
 

Sunderland was indeed achievable. And he left them in a good place to go on and get promoted 2 months later. 
 

City - yes we spent money. Was our spending in the top 6? No. 

[Glen hump]

1 minute ago, Harry said:

Barnsley promotion was NOT achievable - because he wasn’t there a full season. He left them in a good place to then go on and get promotion 2 months later. 
 

Sunderland was indeed achievable. And he left them in a good place to go on and get promoted 2 months later. 
 

City - yes we spent money. Was our spending in the top 6? No. 

You just can’t leave it

[IAmNick]

If Lee was a real quality manager then you could have reasonably expected to see us in the playoffs given the time and backing, and Sunderland promoted first go.

The fact that didn't happen doesn't make him awful - he's just average imo. If he was awful he'd have gotten us relegated or at least left the other clubs in a total mess, which he didn't.

It's all so black and white to some!

[Glen hump]

4 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

If Lee was a real quality manager then you could have reasonably expected to see us in the playoffs given the time and backing, and Sunderland promoted first go.

The fact that didn't happen doesn't make him awful - he's just average imo. If he was awful he'd have gotten us relegated or at least left the other clubs in a total mess, which he didn't.

It's all so black and white to some!

He never had time to get the other clubs in a mess , apart from us he’s never stayed anywhere long 

[Nogbad the Bad]

11 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Maybe so, but LJ's now been 'sacked for poor performance' 3 times in as many years and that must say something surely.

As he keeps on getting another position the only conclusion must be is he's outstandingly persuasive at interviews, but unfortunately it all seems to go downhill from there.

You'd think those interviewing LJ would have noticed this but football boards can become desperate, especially when choices 1 & 2 have apparently turned them down, and perhaps with very few viable candidates left Fleetwood will cling to the hope that surely he will actually be successful somewhere at some stage.

LJ's managed some big clubs so despite his lack of success he'll be seen as quite a big name for Fleetwood you'd imagine.

 

 

10 hours ago, Harry said:

Blimey. Would you like a glass of water to help wash down that vitriol. 
 

Bit dismissive Harry, where is this vitriol?

- that I mention LJ's 3 sackings in 3 years?

-  that he is reportedly 3rd choice for Fleetwood after Robinson & Wild?

- that LJ seems remarkably persuasive at interview but his record of bringing success afterwards is not good and it's surprising if potential employers haven't noticed this?

All seems perfectly reasonable (and non-vitriolic) to me!

Having dismissed my post with a a 5 second response (that's sufficient to get a number of 'likes' apparently) perhaps you'd like to explain why you view the points raised above as vitriolic because I don't see it.