Lee Johnson

[BrizzleRed]

6 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

I like to think there's room on Otib for odd posts.

It's a pot-pourri of things with LJ, what I'm throwing in to the hat, is the idea that we are not always fully aware of why we think the things we think, nor the judgements and conclusions we come to, especially about other people.

I'm not saying you cannot make it as a player if you are small, although how often does a kid get told: yer too small to make it? I'm talking about Lee as a manager. 

It doesn't necessarily stop you, but it puts you at a disadvantage being quite short, I want to say. A bit like being black puts, or certainly put, ex players at a disadvantage of securing manager/leader roles. People have fixed ideas about things such as what a leader looks like (he looks like Nige, tough; not like Martin Woolford, woolly), 

There will be a reason Lee projects himself as "cleverer than most around him" and I am suggesting that his stature is part of that.

Yes, the forum is all about variety and I completely get that.

The point is, football, unlike many areas in society seems to be a meritocracy, where success is rewarded, regardless of who you are.  If you can do the business, you’re, so to speak.

That’s why I don’t totally agree with what you say about black footballers.  There are plenty who get to the very highest levels on the field, so don’t appear to be disadvantaged at all there.  It may just be they don’t generally have the same desire to go into coaching and management.  I see no reason why they’d be rejected if it looked like they could ‘produce the goods’, as it didn’t hold them back on the field and football is a results business after all.

Really interesting that you raise the point about Martin Woolford.  He was shocking for quite some time, so the hair and hairband were something that didn’thelp his cause.  He  then had that great start to one season and I well remember that song starting, along the lines of ‘Woolford, Woolford, he used to be shite, but now he’s alright, oh Woolford’.  Not exactly glowingly complimentary, but people definitely warmed to him when he stopped being shit!

As for your last sentence, you’re basically describing small/short man syndrome, which is certainly understandable in his situation.  That said, they aren’t the most endearing social traits, which could equally be responsible for his low popularity rating with many fans.  A bit of a chicken and the egg situation I guess, so was he unpopular because of his height, or general demeanour.

[NickJ]

19 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

No, there really was no vitriol whatsoever and you either don't want to reel back from your initial OTT reaction, or you simply don't understand the meaning of the word vitriol, which I doubt.

All rather curious, you exaggerate the sentiment of my post to an extreme and then further hugely exaggerate any negative feelings you feel I have towards LJ personally by insisting I must 'despise' him, all this apparently without me even realising it myself!

My take on this is you are being so defensive towards LJ that you almost appear to be soppy about him, and as you've said you don't rate him much professionally, one can only assume you strongly admire him as a person.

If I was following your earlier line of argument I could say that you come over as besotted with LJ, and, if you can't see that - to slightly amend your earlier phrase - 'you're so far down the adore LJ rabbit hole that there's little hope for you to ever realise it.'

Of course I could be completely wrong to draw these conclusions, but no more wrong than you were when posting your bizarre over reactions to my posts.

 

 

 

As I pointed out to @Leveller a few posts up, there appears to be a misundertanding of the word vitriol.

A few people seem to have taken criticism of any kind as vitriol.

Your posts are not vitriolic, neither are mine, nor are the vast majority on here, as defined by the word vitriol.

Saying he's a crap manager or was a crap player, is not vitriol.

To suggest he benefitted at Bristol City from nepotism (player) and mysterious favourtism (manager) is not vitriol.

There would need to be an element of gratuitous malice.

Words such as blagger, fraud, charatan, inept, incompetent - for those who have tried to say otherwise, they are not malicious and therefore they are not vitriolic.

What is obvious from this thread and others I have seen on Sunderland and Hibs (I do, as clearly do many others on this thread, take an unexplainably perverse interest in his career) is that the vast majority of commentators think he is a crap manager for all sorts of reasons, and he is widely ridiculed.

I'd say that many on here defending him do so from a sense of perceived unjustice, which is very laudable, but I could list a page or more of examples why he is ridiculed, and I really do not understand how anyone who isn't really taken very seriously can hope to succeeed in management of any type.

 

 

[SuperDziek]

2 hours ago, phantom said:

Thank goodness the league resumes this weekend

So that we can see how Fleetwood get on?

[Leveller]

4 hours ago, NickJ said:

As I pointed out to @Leveller a few posts up, there appears to be a misundertanding of the word vitriol.

A few people seem to have taken criticism of any kind as vitriol.

Your posts are not vitriolic, neither are mine, nor are the vast majority on here, as defined by the word vitriol.

Saying he's a crap manager or was a crap player, is not vitriol.

To suggest he benefitted at Bristol City from nepotism (player) and mysterious favourtism (manager) is not vitriol.

There would need to be an element of gratuitous malice.

Words such as blagger, fraud, charatan, inept, incompetent - for those who have tried to say otherwise, they are not malicious and therefore they are not vitriolic.

What is obvious from this thread and others I have seen on Sunderland and Hibs (I do, as clearly do many others on this thread, take an unexplainably perverse interest in his career) is that the vast majority of commentators think he is a crap manager for all sorts of reasons, and he is widely ridiculed.

I'd say that many on here defending him do so from a sense of perceived unjustice, which is very laudable, but I could list a page or more of examples why he is ridiculed, and I really do not understand how anyone who isn't really taken very seriously can hope to succeeed in management of any type.

 

 

At the end of the day, it comes down to your definition of vitriolic, or whatever. To me, it’s just the difference between an honest assessment of ability, and insults.

Words such as fraud, charlatan and blagger are all insults implying knowingly tricking people. That goes beyond not being as good a manager as you think you are. 

[NickJ]

4 hours ago, Leveller said:

At the end of the day, it comes down to your definition of vitriolic, or whatever. To me, it’s just the difference between an honest assessment of ability, and insults.

Words such as fraud, charlatan and blagger are all insults implying knowingly tricking people. That goes beyond not being as good a manager as you think you are. 

With respect, there isn't a subjective definition of vitriol. It means what the English language says it means.

I say he is a blagger, that is my opinion, and again I would ask what word you suggest I use which conveys the same message which isn't (in your opinion) vitriolic.

It seems to me that the LJ defenders have themselves descended to sledging of posters who have expressed perfectly reasonable non vitriolic criticisms.

[And Its Smith]

 

50 pages is up. Batted LJ

[REDOXO]

For Anyone who fancies it Fleetwood are home to Oxford on Saturday!

[Tim Monaghan]

Our obsession with LJ is beyond weird, even for us. 

[Fordy62]

The dislike that many show is because of his misplaced very abrasive and unwarranted arrogance. There are some similarities between LJ and Joey Barton in what comes across as faux intellectual- it’s almost as if LJ reads a quote and then memorises it ready to roll it out in the post match interview (see Sharks) Joey does that too, but his tend to be on social media because he’s probably a couple of steps down on the real intelligence ladder from LJ and daren’t risk it.

This rubs people up the wrong way - people who try to be clever often do. The suggestion that it’s in any way because he’s short is complete nonsense. 

[1960maaan]

2 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

Our obsession with LJ is beyond weird, even for us. 

Really, I think it's understandable for the most part , though I get it can get a little OTT. 
Remembering this is a Forum that's whole raison d'être, is to discuss and dissect.
Plus he spent 6 years here as a player, that brought it's own stories. 4 Years as a manager , that split the fans and owner more than any time before . Then add his Dad brought him here to start with & he left the club in a confused and bloated state on the playing side. 
Enough there for many to want to see what happens and possibly for some to hold a grudge . I can't think of anyone who has spent ten years here ( specially in social media times ), but if there were someone who had done that and moved on I don't doubt many would be interested in what happened after.
Whether that was hoping he succeeded or failed.

[Spike]

I think LJ's main issue is that he's a "juggler manager" and by that I don't mean he's a clown, I mean he's always trying to treat every game as a puzzle that he can figure out and this is why he earned the name "streaky Lee", because he messes with his set up, tactics, how he wants people to play etc so much that he essentially doesn't know what his own identity of his teams football is. Instead he changes his line up and tactics to counter what he feels the opposition will do so in turn when the opposition doesn't do what he expected his team are set up incorrectly. This is why he has good streaks and bad streaks, because when something works for a few games he finally sticks to it and things go well but then he'll lose a game and his brain goes into "I can fix this" mode and he begins making changes and before you know it he's got the team set up completely differently and he's losing games left right and center.

I kind of see LJ as the anti-Pearson, Pearson sticks to his guns relentlessly and tries different players based on form but his tactics remain largely the same and he has patience for things to come good, LJ is much the opposite, one thing goes wrong and he's rebuilding the squad, the tactics, the game plan etc. 

Saying this it sounds like I think he's a terrible manager, to which I would say I do not rate him as a manager, but as a role where he is a coach he could do very well as I feel he does make teams play good football, but his issue is that he cannot help himself in changing things frequently, which probably helped him with Ashton as we were constantly selling and buying so he had to change things.  I think LJ has good coaching qualities, but I think his downfall is his inability to stick with something that works because he's a perfectionist and even when something is working very well he wants it to be better and cannot leave it alone.
I suppose a good analogy of LJ is that he's an artist who paints masterpieces but is never happy with his painting, so he keeps adding, changing, painting over and before you know it he's ruined his own artwork.

[David Brent]

6 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

 

50 pages is up. Batted LJ

I’m curious how far he will have fallen by the next 50

[Fordy62]

1 hour ago, David Brent said:

I’m curious how far he will have fallen by the next 50

Knowing our luck it’ll be Premier League Fleetwood!

[The Journalist]

23 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Knowing our luck it’ll be Premier League Fleetwood!

On the plus side, we'll be due a new club to copy by then. They seem to come in two/three-year cycles (just beginning on Luton, of course, after giving up with Brentford and Brighton).

[Northern Red]

2 minutes ago, The Journalist said:

On the plus side, we'll be due a new club to copy by then. They seem to come in two/three-year cycles (just beginning on Luton, of course, after giving up with Brentford and Brighton).

All it would need is for SL to get done for fraud and we'd be good to go.

[Major Isewater]

On 11/09/2023 at 21:54, Red Exile said:

He had a clutch of devotees who simply couldn't believe he wasn't up to the job...the job being getting us to the play-offs

A job normally associated with a person with two legs…

[RedRoss]

Pot kettle black springs to mind. I remember when Barnsley fans used to pop on here sporadically and tell us how crap LJ was and all his short comings. No pun intended! I remember thinking why are they so obsessed with a past manager. Same applies here.

 

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

I think LJ's main issue is that he's a "juggler manager" and by that I don't mean he's a clown, I mean he's always trying to treat every game as a puzzle that he can figure out and this is why he earned the name "streaky Lee", because he messes with his set up, tactics, how he wants people to play etc so much that he essentially doesn't know what his own identity of his teams football is. Instead he changes his line up and tactics to counter what he feels the opposition will do so in turn when the opposition doesn't do what he expected his team are set up incorrectly. This is why he has good streaks and bad streaks, because when something works for a few games he finally sticks to it and things go well but then he'll lose a game and his brain goes into "I can fix this" mode and he begins making changes and before you know it he's got the team set up completely differently and he's losing games left right and center.

I kind of see LJ as the anti-Pearson, Pearson sticks to his guns relentlessly and tries different players based on form but his tactics remain largely the same and he has patience for things to come good, LJ is much the opposite, one thing goes wrong and he's rebuilding the squad, the tactics, the game plan etc. 

Saying this it sounds like I think he's a terrible manager, to which I would say I do not rate him as a manager, but as a role where he is a coach he could do very well as I feel he does make teams play good football, but his issue is that he cannot help himself in changing things frequently, which probably helped him with Ashton as we were constantly selling and buying so he had to change things.  I think LJ has good coaching qualities, but I think his downfall is his inability to stick with something that works because he's a perfectionist and even when something is working very well he wants it to be better and cannot leave it alone.
I suppose a good analogy of LJ is that he's an artist who paints masterpieces but is never happy with his painting, so he keeps adding, changing, painting over and before you know it he's ruined his own artwork.

My own impression is of a driven man who has had a lifetime of insults relating to height and footballing ability. Magnified by the shadow of his Dad’s success which I am convinced he measures himself against whilst holding GJ a little in contempt for his. ‘ old fashioned ‘ methods. 
I feel a bit sorry for LJ in some respects as if he had promoted Sunderland and it was largely his team that made it , then perhaps , he could have chilled out a bit and developed into the coach I believe he could be. 
I wish him well but I wouldn’t want him back at City. 

[Nogbad the Bad]

7 hours ago, NickJ said:

With respect, there isn't a subjective definition of vitriol. It means what the English language says it means.

I say he is a blagger, that is my opinion, and again I would ask what word you suggest I use which conveys the same message which isn't (in your opinion) vitriolic.

It seems to me that the LJ defenders have themselves descended to sledging of posters who have expressed perfectly reasonable non vitriolic criticisms.

This is the crux of the matter and is unarguable.

When someone labels someone else's post with a word that is completely over the top, and easily shown to have been inappropriate by the definition of the word, they really should have the good grace to accept they were wrong to use it in the first place, rather than continuing to use the word and insisting they were right to do so.

 

[Harry]

17 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

This is the crux of the matter and is unarguable.

When someone labels someone else's post with a word that is completely over the top, and easily shown to have been inappropriate by the definition of the word, they really should have the good grace to accept they were wrong to use it in the first place, rather than continuing to use the word and insisting they were right to do so.

 

Taken it quite badly haven’t you. 

[BrizzleRed]

11 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

This is the crux of the matter and is unarguable.

When someone labels someone else's post with a word that is completely over the top, and easily shown to have been inappropriate by the definition of the word, they really should have the good grace to accept they were wrong to use it in the first place, rather than continuing to use the word and insisting they were right to do so.

 

Pretty much the same as the massively over-used ‘vile’ these days.  

That seems to be some people’s go-to word for any action they don’t personally like, and its use is often totally inappropriate and ott.

[SecretSam]

2 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

My own impression is of a driven man who has had a lifetime of insults relating to height and footballing ability. Magnified by the shadow of his Dad’s success which I am convinced he measures himself against whilst holding GJ a little in contempt for his. ‘ old fashioned ‘ methods. 
I feel a bit sorry for LJ in some respects as if he had promoted Sunderland and it was largely his team that made it , then perhaps , he could have chilled out a bit and developed into the coach I believe he could be. 
I wish him well but I wouldn’t want him back at City. 

Errrr...apart from taking us up and into the Pray-Off final, exactly what was that 'success'?

[soultrader]

6 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

Our obsession with LJ is beyond weird, even for us. 

I think its because he is " a busy bee, if you like "

 

Plus his contribution to the managers lexicon should not be underestimated.

 

 

* admit it, you did the voice

[Sheltons Army]

27 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

Errrr...apart from taking us up and into the Pray-Off final, exactly what was that 'success'?

Other than taking over a shambles of a Club , players fighting on the pitch and off it, in danger of dropping to League Two , steadied us and swiftly built a PROMOTION side , took us up and with a team of waifs and strays got us to a PO Final.

The promotion alone is something his son has never achieved

 

 

[Bristol Oil Services]

22 hours ago, NickJ said:

As I pointed out to @Leveller a few posts up, there appears to be a misundertanding of the word vitriol.

A few people seem to have taken criticism of any kind as vitriol.

Your posts are not vitriolic, neither are mine, nor are the vast majority on here, as defined by the word vitriol.

Saying he's a crap manager or was a crap player, is not vitriol.

To suggest he benefitted at Bristol City from nepotism (player) and mysterious favourtism (manager) is not vitriol.

There would need to be an element of gratuitous malice.

Words such as blagger, fraud, charatan, inept, incompetent - for those who have tried to say otherwise, they are not malicious and therefore they are not vitriolic.

What is obvious from this thread and others I have seen on Sunderland and Hibs (I do, as clearly do many others on this thread, take an unexplainably perverse interest in his career) is that the vast majority of commentators think he is a crap manager for all sorts of reasons, and he is widely ridiculed.

I'd say that many on here defending him do so from a sense of perceived unjustice, which is very laudable, but I could list a page or more of examples why he is ridiculed, and I really do not understand how anyone who isn't really taken very seriously can hope to succeeed in management of any type.

 

 

I'd say "fraud" could be deemed malicious, that's too strong fer me. If Lee was a fraud, what was Ashton? All said and done, Lee didn't appoint himself here; if Lee was lacking or whatever he was (or wasn't), that's Steve's responsibility. 

[Sleepy1968]

I quite liked some of LJ's reign here - but he fell a bit short in the end - he wasn't helped by being paired with Mark Ashton. And I think he still could've taken Sunderland up to the Championship, even off the back of that awful run. They were probably just itching to get rid of him though.

It's nice to see he's finally seen the light and taken up a new career. Not sure I'd want to try to get to grips with that back catalogue, but fair play. All hail the new Stevie Nicks, you really have gone your own way.

[Nogbad the Bad]

On 13/09/2023 at 07:10, Ghost Rider said:

Our obsession with LJ is beyond weird, even for us. 

LJ was a prominent figure at BCFC for a very long time, and remains controversial, and if we are obsessed with him he is simply one part of a wider obsession we would all have to admit to share - Bristol City F.C. -  an obsession that in itself would be seen as weird to those with no interest in City or football.

I like the 'even for us' but I wouldn't see LJ as a particularly weird obsession on OTIB, a platform after all for Bristol City 'fanatics' who mostly have a long term addiction to City, leading to strong opinions on just about every issue that affects the club.

LJ is one subject where we could be seen to take an excessive interest, but really it's par for the course for those so engrossed in the club they feel the need to visit (and comment on) this site most days, and let's face it it's not just LJ, the same charge could be levelled at numerous other threads on here too.

 

 

[1960maaan]

3 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

LJ was a prominent figure at BCFC for a very long time, and remains controversial, and if we are obsessed with him he is simply one part of a wider obsession we would all have to admit to share - Bristol City F.C. -  an obsession that in itself would be seen as weird to those with no interest in City or football.

I like the 'even for us' but I wouldn't see LJ as a particularly weird obsession on OTIB, a platform after all for Bristol City 'fanatics' who mostly have a long term addiction to City, leading to strong opinions on just about every issue that affects the club.

LJ is one subject where we could be seen to take an excessive interest, but really it's par for the course for those so engrossed in the club they feel the need to visit (and comment on) this site most days, and let's face it it's not just LJ, the same charge could be levelled at numerous other threads on here too.

 

 

I said pretty much the same yesterday.
He spent 10 years here ,  No great surprise his name pops up a lot.

[bissellredhead]

23 hours ago, SecretSam said:

Errrr...apart from taking us up and into the Pray-Off final, exactly what was that 'success'?

Is that you robbored?

[Harry]

4 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

LJ was a prominent figure at BCFC for a very long time, and remains controversial, and if we are obsessed with him he is simply one part of a wider obsession we would all have to admit to share - Bristol City F.C. -  an obsession that in itself would be seen as weird to those with no interest in City or football.

I like the 'even for us' but I wouldn't see LJ as a particularly weird obsession on OTIB, a platform after all for Bristol City 'fanatics' who mostly have a long term addiction to City, leading to strong opinions on just about every issue that affects the club.

LJ is one subject where we could be seen to take an excessive interest, but really it's par for the course for those so engrossed in the club they feel the need to visit (and comment on) this site most days, and let's face it it's not just LJ, the same charge could be levelled at numerous other threads on here too.

 

 

Gary Johnson managed us for longer than Lee. Where’s Gary’s 50-page thread? 
I doubt he’s had more than 50 posts about him in the 13 years since he left.