Lee Johnson

[IAmNick]

Surely meant Webster?

[maxjak]

LJ will probably do ok at Fleetwood....it's around about his level?   Coaching wise he will probably improve them, just don't let him anywhere near the budget or credit cards?    Though Always thought he would end up at Chest -SHIRE- Field?    I'll get my coat........................................

[Superjack]

51 minutes ago, JAWS said:

You've obvipusly had more practice or are far more intelligent! Probably the latter!

More likely neither.

[Davefevs]

@robinforlife2 you didn’t get Aloisi but you got your first A-League manager, albeit in Scotland.

 

[Nogbad the Bad]

On 10/09/2023 at 13:31, Harry said:

But, your words were still vitriolic. If you say they weren’t coming from a place of vitriol then I guess we have to accept your word. But they ‘came across’ as vitriolic. 

No, there really was no vitriol whatsoever and you either don't want to reel back from your initial OTT reaction, or you simply don't understand the meaning of the word vitriol, which I doubt.

All rather curious, you exaggerate the sentiment of my post to an extreme and then further hugely exaggerate any negative feelings you feel I have towards LJ personally by insisting I must 'despise' him, all this apparently without me even realising it myself!

My take on this is you are being so defensive towards LJ that you almost appear to be soppy about him, and as you've said you don't rate him much professionally, one can only assume you strongly admire him as a person.

If I was following your earlier line of argument I could say that you come over as besotted with LJ, and, if you can't see that - to slightly amend your earlier phrase - 'you're so far down the adore LJ rabbit hole that there's little hope for you to ever realise it.'

Of course I could be completely wrong to draw these conclusions, but no more wrong than you were when posting your bizarre over reactions to my posts.

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Nogbad the Bad

[petehinton]

Darren Way his assistant appointment. No Jamie Mac to be seen….

[GlastonburyRed]

3 minutes ago, petehinton said:

Darren Way his assistant appointment. No Jamie Mac to be seen….

Oh, I am surprised, Hibs situation could be have been complicated I guess by Jamie Mac's lad heading up there at a crucial stage in his life. Just need Skiv to get involved now and we nearly have a full Glovers' set.

Edited September 11, 2023 by GlastonburyRed

[Red Exile]

38 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

No, there really was no vitriol whatsoever and you either don't want to reel back from your initial OTT reaction, or you simply don't understand the meaning of the word vitriol, which I doubt.

All rather curious, you exaggerate the sentiment of my post to an extreme and then further hugely exaggerate any negative feelings you feel I have towards LJ personally by insisting I must 'despise' him, all this apparently without me even realising it myself!

My take on this is you are being so defensive towards LJ that you almost appear to be soppy about him, and as you've said you don't rate him much professionally, one can only assume you strongly admire him as a person.

If I was following your earlier line of argument I could say that you come over as besotted with LJ, and, if you can't see that - to slightly amend your earlier phrase - 'you're so far down the adore LJ rabbit hole that there's little hope for you to ever realise it.'

Of course I could be completely wrong to draw these conclusions, but no more wrong than you were when posting your bizarre over reactions to my posts.

 

 

 

Noggers I recall you defending me against the LJ glee club when I was calling him out on the occasion of one of his more incompetent late stage losses - against Barnsley as I recall. I was very grateful. I think we have to acknowledge that reason went out the window when judging Lee Johnson. He had a clutch of devotees who simply couldn't believe he wasn't up to the job...the job being getting us to the play-offs. Those of us who called him out were clearly motivated by hate - rather than the evidence of the league table. But hey. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Red Exile

[Red Exile]

double post

Edited September 11, 2023 by Red Exile

[Phileas Fogg]

6 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

Noggers I recall you defending me against the LJ glee club when I was calling him out on the occasion of one of his more incompetent late stage losses - against Barnsley as I recall. I was very grateful. I think we have to acknowledge that reason went out the window when judging Lee Johnson. He had a clutch of devotees who simply couldn't believe he wasn't up to the job...the job being getting us to the play-offs. Those of us who called him out were clearly motivated by hate - rather than the evidence of the league table. But hey. 

Not sure that’s quite true..

I haven’t seen one person post on here that LJ should’ve stayed as manager - unless you can prove otherwise.

People just take objection to the personal comments. His height (irrelevant), his ability as a player (irrelevant), even (weirdly) his marriage for some reason?

You can find all three of those in this thread - almost 4 years after his sacking! 

If people want to debate his performance as a manager, especially when you factor in the disparity with how he was backed compared to Cotterill (or even Pearson!) that’s a valid point of debate. The fixation on the personal stuff is bizarre though. 

[Red Exile]

12 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Not sure that’s quite true..

I haven’t seen one person post on here that LJ should’ve stayed as manager - unless you can prove otherwise.

People just take objection to the personal comments. His height (irrelevant), his ability as a player (irrelevant), even (weirdly) his marriage for some reason?

You can find all three of those in this thread - almost 4 years after his sacking! 

If people want to debate his performance as a manager, especially when you factor in the disparity with how he was backed compared to Cotterill (or even Pearson!) that’s a valid point of debate. The fixation on the personal stuff is bizarre though. 

I was a critic for more than a season before he left. Never mentioned his height, but perhaps balked at his Brent-isms. Nothing against him personally in truth, just not up to the job. Poor appointment. I got dogs abuse from folk determined that he would succeed. They were wrong, and were wrong month after month. All arguing he should stay...until he left. Did I keep a list of names? - one or two come to mind! I'm sad that I and others were right. What a waste of time and money the Johnson years proved. It wasn't necessary to 'hate' LJ or any of his characteristics to call him out as not up to the job of leading a side out of the Championship.

LJ doesn't particularly interest me these days but I object to the rewriting of OTIB history. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Red Exile

[Phileas Fogg]

28 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

I was a critic for more than a season before he left. Never mentioned his height, but perhaps balked at his Brent-isms. Nothing against him personally in truth, just not up to the job. Poor appointment. I got dogs abuse from folk determined that he would succeed. They were wrong, and were wrong month after month. All arguing he should stay...until he left. Did I keep a list of names? - one or two come to mind! I'm sad that I and others were right. What a waste of time and money the Johnson years proved. It wasn't necessary to 'hate' LJ or any of his characteristics to call him out as not up to the job of leading a side out of the Championship.

LJ doesn't particularly interest me these days but I object to the rewriting of OTIB history. 

I’m not so inclined as to trawl through peoples posts from 2016-2020 so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I think the fixation on whether you were ‘right’ and others were ‘wrong’ is a little odd though. In this context it’s completely subjective. Did Johnson leave us in a better place than when he arrived? Probably. Did he get us promoted? No. So I suppose it comes down to what your expectations were of his appointment. 

[And Its Smith]

Nearly 50 pages. Admit it…on some level we all love LJ a little bit.  Like an ex you can’t stop thinking about

[Red Exile]

12 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I’m not so inclined as to trawl through peoples posts from 2016-2020 so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I think the fixation on whether you were ‘right’ and others were ‘wrong’ is a little odd though. In this context it’s completely subjective. Did Johnson leave us in a better place than when he arrived? Probably. Did he get us promoted? No. So I suppose it comes down to what your expectations were of his appointment. 

Give me 'the benefit of the doubt'?

You've been on this forum for years - you don't recall people calling for LJ to go and others defending him? Don't be daft. It went on for what seemed like an age until he finally got the boot.

I'm not 'fixated' own whether I was right - although I was as it happens, right in that he was never going to get us promoted, he's never got anyone promoted. Expectations? - managed by the club's owner - personally, I was at Charlton when he appeared sat next to SL. My heart sank.

EDIT: ...anyhow, we are all City fans, and the LJ years are behind us. No need to rake over the embers of discontent! Or at least not with Lee Johnson. Pearson is a manager much more to my liking.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Red Exile

[Shauntaylor85]

23 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

That’s the second time I’ve seen him given as an example of a good signing. I wonder if it was the same poster. 

Nicky Hunt was only marginally worse 

[Bristol Oil Services]

48 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Not sure that’s quite true..

I haven’t seen one person post on here that LJ should’ve stayed as manager - unless you can prove otherwise.

People just take objection to the personal comments. His height (irrelevant), his ability as a player (irrelevant), even (weirdly) his marriage for some reason?

You can find all three of those in this thread - almost 4 years after his sacking! 

If people want to debate his performance as a manager, especially when you factor in the disparity with how he was backed compared to Cotterill (or even Pearson!) that’s a valid point of debate. The fixation on the personal stuff is bizarre though. I 

His height is irrelevant? It's (part of the reason) why he provokes so much ire, I would suggest, because short men get a rough ride in life (OTIB Breaking News) from other people, a bit like ginger haired people do, or overweight people, or people with dark skin (the list goes on). He gets picked on, partly because he is short. I would suggest. 

Why has Lee (1.68m) not managed at this level other than here for an owner he knew previously whilst his assistant at Barnsley in 2016 Paul Heckingbottom (1.8m) has gone on to coach/manage in the Prem? What has Heck got or done that Lee hasn't got or done?

A L1 promotion, you might say. And he certainly did well that first season up with Barnsley, but other than that (a lot of which must be down to Lee).

I would say that Lee's height plays a significant role in the person he is today, and the way he is perceived by others, and the way that he is treated by others. To my mind, his height is absolutely relevant.

 

 

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

His height is irrelevant? It's (part of the reason) why he provokes so much ire, I would suggest, because short men get a rough ride in life (OTIB Breaking News) from other people, a bit like ginger haired people do, or overweight people, or people with dark skin (the list goes on). He gets picked on, partly because he is short. I would suggest. 

Why has Lee (1.68m) not managed at this level other than here for an owner he knew previously whilst his assistant at Barnsley in 2016 Paul Heckingbottom (1.8m) has gone on to coach/manage in the Prem? What has Heck got or done that Lee hasn't got or done?

A L1 promotion, you might say. And he certainly did well that first season up with Barnsley, but other than that (a lot of which must be down to Lee).

I would say that Lee's height plays a significant role in the person he is today, and the way he is perceived by others, and the way that he is treated by others. To my mind, his height is absolutely relevant.

 

 

Please tell me this isn’t a serious post.

[Carey 6]

2 hours ago, petehinton said:

Darren Way his assistant appointment. No Jamie Mac to be seen….

I actually think it was time for him to do something differently with regards to an assistant. Different ideas may help. 

I said to a mate the other day, he always seemed to do better here when we had a load of injuries and was forced into a line up.

With a lack of resource at Fleetwood (or so you’d imagine) I wonder if he’ll benefit from having to use mostly the same players each week. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Carey 6

[IAmNick]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Please tell me this isn’t a serious post.

I'm trying to work out whether it is or not as well!

It's very odd either way...

[Kid in the Riot]

34 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

I'm not 'fixated' on whether I was right - although I was as it happens

 

[robinforlife2]

12 hours ago, Davefevs said:

@robinforlife2 you didn’t get Aloisi but you got your first A-League manager, albeit in Scotland.

 

Aloisi can replace Nige and take us to the Premier League. 

[nickolas]

26 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

I actually think it was time for him to do something differently with regards to an assistant. Different ideas may help. 

I said to a mate the other day, he always seemed to do better here when we had a load of injuries and was forced into a line up.

With a lack of resource at Fleetwood (or so you’d imagine) I wonder if he’ll benefit from having to use mostly the same players each week. 

Exactly this. So he couldnt p1ss around playing formation and selection roulette trying to be bloody clever every week!

[robinforlife2]

11 hours ago, IAmNick said:

I'm trying to work out whether it is or not as well!

It's very odd either way...

You could say, he was getting rather short about a few things. 

[Son of Fred]

12 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

Nearly 50 pages. Admit it…on some level we all love LJ a little bit.  Like an ex you can’t stop thinking about

Don't tell the wife

[Son of Fred]

12 hours ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

His height is irrelevant? It's (part of the reason) why he provokes so much ire, I would suggest, because short men get a rough ride in life (OTIB Breaking News) from other people, a bit like ginger haired people do, or overweight people, or people with dark skin (the list goes on). He gets picked on, partly because he is short. I would suggest. 

Why has Lee (1.68m) not managed at this level other than here for an owner he knew previously whilst his assistant at Barnsley in 2016 Paul Heckingbottom (1.8m) has gone on to coach/manage in the Prem? What has Heck got or done that Lee hasn't got or done?

A L1 promotion, you might say. And he certainly did well that first season up with Barnsley, but other than that (a lot of which must be down to Lee).

I would say that Lee's height plays a significant role in the person he is today, and the way he is perceived by others, and the way that he is treated by others. To my mind, his height is absolutely relevant.

 

 

I'm pleased you left his wife out of this

[Bristol Oil Services]

14 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Please tell me this isn’t a serious post.

People make judgements about other people using information they are consciously aware of and information they are not consciously aware of. Even stat-minded, analytical people. This is a fact.

People make judgements about other people using cognitive short-cuts, or stereotypes, it saves time and mental energy. So, a short man will be subject to negative stereotypes. Like a ginger haired person, or an obese person. Fact.

Subconsciously, football club owners will have a mental idea of what a leader of highly paid, athletic young men will look like, and it won't be, for the most part, a short man. How many football managers or head coaches do you see of 5'7" or under? There's plenty of players of that height. It is the same subconscious processes that have up until recently hindered the opportunities for black football managers, still will do.

Highly paid professional "show us yer medals" footballers will subconsciously have a mental idea of what a leader looks like. What a football manager looks like.

Football crowds, or fans, are quick to pick up on "difference," and many are not given to careful consideration or sober judgement of facts. 

A six foot plus bloke has a "head" start over a 5'6" bloke. A short man has to do more to convince than a tall man (like chirpily inform you how he has been away with the SAS or a Michelin starred chef) . Because people are irrational, full of cognitive biases, and prone to falling in with the crowd when it comes to making their minds up.

And not everyone realises how they reach their conclusions about other people. Especially blokes (I think this is a Fact!, but I'm not sure. Just looking for the info now ....).

Take all this - not my opinion, but scientific fact - and add in someone thought to have been a beneficiary of nepotism, in his playing days, and his appointment as manager here, and you have a lively cocktail already for supporter ferment and irrational judgements. 

Basically, football is like being back in the playground at primary school. For most of us. A lot of the time.

[phantom]

Thank goodness the league resumes this weekend

[BrizzleRed]

55 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

People make judgements about other people using information they are consciously aware of and information they are not consciously aware of. Even stat-minded, analytical people. This is a fact.

People make judgements about other people using cognitive short-cuts, or stereotypes, it saves time and mental energy. So, a short man will be subject to negative stereotypes. Like a ginger haired person, or an obese person. Fact.

Subconsciously, football club owners will have a mental idea of what a leader of highly paid, athletic young men will look like, and it won't be, for the most part, a short man. How many football managers or head coaches do you see of 5'7" or under? There's plenty of players of that height. It is the same subconscious processes that have up until recently hindered the opportunities for black football managers, still will do.

Highly paid professional "show us yer medals" footballers will subconsciously have a mental idea of what a leader looks like. What a football manager looks like.

Football crowds, or fans, are quick to pick up on "difference," and many are not given to careful consideration or sober judgement of facts. 

A six foot plus bloke has a "head" start over a 5'6" bloke. A short man has to do more to convince than a tall man (like chirpily inform you how he has been away with the SAS or a Michelin starred chef) . Because people are irrational, full of cognitive biases, and prone to falling in with the crowd when it comes to making their minds up.

And not everyone realises how they reach their conclusions about other people. Especially blokes (I think this is a Fact!, but I'm not sure. Just looking for the info now ....).

Take all this - not my opinion, but scientific fact - and add in someone thought to have been a beneficiary of nepotism, in his playing days, and his appointment as manager here, and you have a lively cocktail already for supporter ferment and irrational judgements. 

Basically, football is like being back in the playground at primary school. For most of us. A lot of the time.

Come on, lack of height hasn’t held Lionel Messi back, has it?

LJ, with his bullshit bingo and giving the impression of believing he was cleverer than most around him and a tactical genius, whilst the results and performances suggested otherwise were the real cause of the anti-LJ feelings I’d suggest. 

Height was just an additional stick to beat him with by some people.  You’re a plenty smart enough poster to be well aware of that, so that’s a really odd post.

[Bristol Oil Services]

22 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

Come on, lack of height hasn’t held Lionel Messi back, has it?

LJ, with his bullshit bingo and giving the impression of believing he was cleverer than most around him and a tactical genius, whilst the results and performances suggested otherwise were the real cause of the anti-LJ feelings I’d suggest. 

Height was just an additional stick to beat him with by some people.  You’re a plenty smart enough poster to be well aware of that, so that’s a really odd post.

I like to think there's room on Otib for odd posts.

It's a pot-pourri of things with LJ, what I'm throwing in to the hat, is the idea that we are not always fully aware of why we think the things we think, nor the judgements and conclusions we come to, especially about other people.

I'm not saying you cannot make it as a player if you are small, although how often does a kid get told: yer too small to make it? I'm talking about Lee as a manager. 

It doesn't necessarily stop you, but it puts you at a disadvantage being quite short, I want to say. A bit like being black puts, or certainly put, ex players at a disadvantage of securing manager/leader roles. People have fixed ideas about things such as what a leader looks like (he looks like Nige, tough; not like Martin Woolford, woolly), 

There will be a reason Lee projects himself as "cleverer than most around him" and I am suggesting that his stature is part of that.

[Davefevs]

40 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

People make judgements about other people using information they are consciously aware of and information they are not consciously aware of. Even stat-minded, analytical people. This is a fact.

People make judgements about other people using cognitive short-cuts, or stereotypes, it saves time and mental energy. So, a short man will be subject to negative stereotypes. Like a ginger haired person, or an obese person. Fact.

Subconsciously, football club owners will have a mental idea of what a leader of highly paid, athletic young men will look like, and it won't be, for the most part, a short man. How many football managers or head coaches do you see of 5'7" or under? There's plenty of players of that height. It is the same subconscious processes that have up until recently hindered the opportunities for black football managers, still will do.

Highly paid professional "show us yer medals" footballers will subconsciously have a mental idea of what a leader looks like. What a football manager looks like.

Football crowds, or fans, are quick to pick up on "difference," and many are not given to careful consideration or sober judgement of facts. 

A six foot plus bloke has a "head" start over a 5'6" bloke. A short man has to do more to convince than a tall man (like chirpily inform you how he has been away with the SAS or a Michelin starred chef) . Because people are irrational, full of cognitive biases, and prone to falling in with the crowd when it comes to making their minds up.

And not everyone realises how they reach their conclusions about other people. Especially blokes (I think this is a Fact!, but I'm not sure. Just looking for the info now ....).

Take all this - not my opinion, but scientific fact - and add in someone thought to have been a beneficiary of nepotism, in his playing days, and his appointment as manager here, and you have a lively cocktail already for supporter ferment and irrational judgements. 

Basically, football is like being back in the playground at primary school. For most of us. A lot of the time.

You were being serious.  That’s fine.

I think you are trying to force-fit some scientific research (e.g. Gladwell, etc) into why a bunch of people on a forum are either for or against LJ’s performance…and concluding “heightism” bias.

I think it’s mostly based on people’s view of his performance, and NOT based on performance influenced by height.  I might be wrong but I don’t think anyone critical of his performance because he’s short, not even subconsciously.  They are critical because of things like tactical changes, bloated squad, money spent, etc, just like those praising look at win %, league position progress, etc.

I think a view of his performance is influenced beyond the above things more by the view that there was nepotism as a player, and his particular style of play, and favouritism by the owner on appointment, and the current feelings towards the owner.  Cocktail indeed, but height is just a small ingredient.

I think height is mentioned more from a piss-take perspective because of some of the things he comes out with.

Probably worth some research on football player and football manager heights to see whether there is any reverse-correlation.  In a physical and fast sport the players will have less 5’6ers (and shorter), just like there are less 6’6ers (and taller).  Footballer heights fit a normal distribution (from studies and even as simplistic studies as taking heights from FIFA), albeit different bell-curves for different positions.  

20 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

There will be a reason Lee projects himself as "cleverer than most around him" and I am suggesting that his stature is part of that.

 My view is it isn’t height, but trying to differentiate himself from his Dad’s type of management style.